₦airaland Forum

analice107:
You are an Atheist. Why are we even having this discussion? Hell doesn't exist, go ate and drink for tomorrow you die. Finish. End of story.

The op is about finding a moral justification for hell, it is not about if it exist or not. So she has every right to say what she think about the morality of that type of punishment.

Scholar8200:
He said plainly ,"will never die" let's not modify it.

Lazarus was dead, yes?
But when Jesus said he was asleep, what did Jesus mean?
If everyone who believes in Jesus are asleep at death, what does it mean?

Scholar8200:
Consider that verse 26 and tell me if that refers to physical death bearing in mind that MANY believers, even the apostles died!

Jesus made it quite clear that anyone who died believing in Him will not remain dead forever. He likened it to the temporary unconciousness we have when we fall asleep, because He alone has power over death.
So on the day of resurrection all those who are 'asleep' in Him will be brought back to life like you would wake someone from a deep sleep.

Scholar8200:
Your analogy is not very applicable to the topic at hand. We dont get elevated for what we have done but what we have received (of course having received it there will be evidences). If A receives it and B fails to, what then? Already we know hell was made for the devil and his angels, and we have offered to us that which will make us escape seeing there is no third place, if we fail to receive and end up there who do we blame?

We are given life as a gift to start with, we did not do anything to warrant life, did we?
Some use it very well to please God as much as they can, while others use it for their own selfish interest.
Now the wise slave in my illustration was elevated far beyond what he imagined possible. By that I mean that his effort did not justify his promotion, he got it out of his master's undeserved kindness. Is that not how our promotion is, through the undesrved kindness of God?

It is your illustration that does not fit. You agreed that life is a gift, then why is it difficult for you to see that like any gift if abused it can be withdrawn from the beneficiary?

Scholar8200:
At resurrection, we are raised with an incorruptible, immortal body. See 1 Corinth 15 and 1 Thess 4.

Let us read the account of Lazarus death and resurrection in John 11:23-25.

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

How can one be immortal without Jesus?

analice107:
You only attempted to answer one part of the question.
If Adam was just the lump of clay or dust as you said, when God told him if he eats from the tree he will die, why didn't he die? His body died 930 years later, are you saying God lied to Adam?

Adam did die on that very day in the sense that he got disconnected from the source of life which meant that his eventual return to dust was guaranteed. Just like when a spinning fan is switched off it doesn'come to a complete stop the moment you flick the switch that diconnects it from power. It continues spinning with no dicernible change of speed in the first few moments after switching it off. But given enough time, the reduction of speed becomes obvious as the blades slowly grinds to a halt.
Adam died on that day as his vitality slowly drained from him till he he became dust.

Scholar8200:
Cross check this with Psalm 9:17, will the righteous and wicked head to the same place going by the tenor of Palm 9:17?

Of what purpose is the resurrection if at death we never truly die but just shed our mortal bodies?

goodnews201668:
Your mum actually rub pepper on your anus?
That's a bit harsh, she may have thought she's doing you good after all.
But a considerate mum doesn't have to go that far to purnish a child.

Though she set you free at the end.

But then we are talking about eternal torment or burning someone in hell.

Is it morally justified for Almighty God to create a permanent place to burn people for a sin committed within few years spent on earth?

What will God gain by burning people? Nothing!
What will he gain if he simply destroys them? Absolutely nothing!
Again God frown at the idea of burning people, he even condemned people that did and said it never was in his plans or never planned to do so!

Why resurrect sinners judge them and throw them into hell?
God isn't a sadist.

If refuse life or refuse to live by rejecting Jesus and God's provisions for life, will it be fair and morally right for God to insist I must be giving life only to be tormented?

How will I veiw a God who make effort to turn me into spirit and set spiritual fire to burn me forever? Cruel?

We are created in the image of God, meaning we can reflect his qualities or act like him.
If we can't go to the extreme just to punish our disobedient children, How much more God who is a perfection of love?

They are trying very hard to avoid these difficult questions about hell and what it says about their notion of God.

As a christian I believe that the universe was created by God, But I cannot presume to have the definitive knowledge of how He accomplished this great and complex work. We will spend an eternity searching for answers, as we succeed even more questions will be uncovered in our previous answers. That is why Solomon in the bible book of Ecclesiastes 3:11 said this: "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end."

The problem with many christians is that they imagine that God just blew some fairy dust to bring forth the universe, I find that notion ridiculous.
Advancing scientific knowledge is not anti-God, an obstinate desire to wallow in ignorance is anti-God to me.

Where are the 'touch not my anointed' brigade? This man of god should be given the same immunity from the law that that other high criminals of god have been given in the past.

Jozzy4:
someone asks this same question some years ago, i was just smiling , I remember some people saying if God could reward humans with endless life in heaven , then endless life in hell is justified .


but there are so many problems with this reasoning, a certain man stood up and said :

1, does that mean the folk that made heaven do so by his power ? he makes himself deserve it ?,if NO , how then could you say someone in hell makes himself deserve it !

2- everlasting life is not by merit , ITS A GIFT . if everlasting life is gift given to some and not because they deserve or by their power , logic dictates then that sentencing someone to trilliona nd rillions of year in a torture chamber is not fair and cruel , because they also dont deserve such.


3, if the righteousness of 80 years is not enough to make u worthy of heaven , how then could the sin of 80 years make u worthy of hell ?

everywhere was silent.

Bravo my friend, beautifully put.

Scholar8200:
Or what could one do in one lifetime to deserve an eternity in Heaven?

You have two servants, one of them is wise and the other is foolish, and you gave them some considerable amount of money as gift out of the kindness of your heart, they did not earn it.
The wise servant said to himself on receiving the money,"my master is very kind, I shall use this money to learn a trade so that I can be of better service to him. And if there comes a day when he no longer needs my service, I will at least have a trade to earn a living. " But the foolish servant said to himself," I have worked very hard indeed, I am sure that this gift is the excess profit from my labour that he has been withholding from me, perhaps I should ask him if he included the interest." Saying that, he went off to squander it on booze and prostitutes.
Now if you, having observed both servants decides to elevate the wise one to a position of responsibility far greater than he ever imagined possible, that is your prerogative isn't it? But the worst you can do to the foolish slave is to sack him for his foolishness and take what is left of the gift you gave him. Torturing him for eternity for squandering a gift does not sound fair, would you not agree?

Scholar8200:
So who becomes guilty when I refuse to do the highlighted? When I fully know the consequence of so doing? Besides, it is His prerogative, but we must appropriate it by faith else, we deny ourselves and take our part in the other side since there is no middle ground!

You are guilty of course if you fail to do what is required of you, I think we all are in agreement on that. But the op is not about responsibility, it is about if it is right to give someone that never asked to be brought into this world in the first place and subjecting the person to eternal torture for disobedience instead of taking the life of the person as punishment for disobedience.

analice107:
Are you sure you don't loose sleep over this matter? Ha, maybe you should go back and reread your comments again. You have discarded the hellfire belief yet you opened this thread calling God cruel, sadistic and wicked for burning man eternally?
You mean we have been on this issue when you have discarded the belief?

I only called your notion of God cruel and sadistic,and I said it as respectfully as I could so as not to offend the sensibility of anyone. So far you haven't given me any reason to change my mind.

Scholar8200:
But before the mercy was granted there had to be faith! Mercy could only be received on a condition.
Faith expresssed in repentance. It takes faith in Who Jesus is for a dying man to say that to One Who everyone thought was just another dying Man!

Who would you then blame for the one that perished?

You don't seem to get the point. Whether Jesus decides to give life to one sinner and allow the other to die in their sin, it is his prerogative. Just like if you come across two beggars you may decide to give one some money and not give the other any money based on how you perceive them. No one will call you wicked, but to rob or beat one of them will call your character into question.
Adam sinned and because of him we are all dead, but by exercising faith in Christ our sins can be forgiven.

analice107:
So you have been losing sleep over something you don't even know anything about? You have called God all manner of names over something you don't know?
Lolzzzz.

I have never lost one second of sleep over hell since I discarded the belief. To say that something eludes you in the context I used it means that you find it senseless and useless. And it for this reason that I created the thread. I think that the notion of hell is evil and irreconcilable with the God I worship, so I asked if you guys have any reasonable argument that can justify why the concept of hell is not of a wicked being but a loving God. So far, I have got nothing.

analice107:
Very good responds. But I have one question.
When you said the wages of sin is death. What death do you mean? Is it the death of the flesh? If yes, what sin did Jesus commit to die that dead?

In describing death God said " you are made from dust and you will return to dust". It was true for adam and it has been true for every man that have ever lived except Jesus who was raised up an immortal spirit after staying dead for three days.
So the snswer to your question is yes, at death we become lifeless dust that we once were.
Jesus did not commit any sin, we did and his death was for our sin. The wages of sin has to be paid one way or the other. We can either pay it with our life and be dead for good or we can accept the payment made by Jesus on our behalf to have the hope of everlasting life.

analice107:
Very good responds. But I have one question.
When you said the wages of sin is death. What death do you mean? Is it the death of the flesh? If yes, what sin did Jesus commit to die that dead?

You tell me if you know the answer to your question. I created this thread inorder to get a better understanding of why hell was created, because ip till now the reason for its creation eludes me.

Theophinio:
These things are spirit, they can't be comprehended with the flesh
PEACE

What do you mean by spirit? I would like to know.

Scholar8200:
Now dorox, would you consider it justice if the thief on the cross was granted an eternal bliss? While the other that railed on Jesus ends in eternal destruction?

God gave a condition, how many times did Adam and Eve need to flout it to face the consequences ?

Kindly answer these.

They were both deserving of death. In fact we all are deserving of death after our first parents Adam and Eve sinned against God, and brought death into the world of man. But out of the underserved kindness and love God have for the world He sent His Son Jesus Christ to ransome us from our enslavement to sin so that by exercising faith in him we might not perish but be given everlasting life.
So to recap, the wages of sin is death and we are all sinners and are bound to die, whether at the cross, or an accident on the road, or via an illness or through old age, we are all set to die from the day we are born because everyone of us was born a sinner. No amount of self righteousness can ever redeem us from our sin.
Going back to your question, it wasn't justice that made Jesus to promise paradise to the remorseful thief, it was mercy. And it is this same mercy that Jesus has extended to all those who believe in him.
The wicked thief simply paid for his sin with his life. While the remorseful thief had his sin paid for with Jusus' life.

Where are the " thou shall not judge" brigade? They should come and defend the dead woman and the pastor the same way they defended Pastor Biodun of COZA ministry.

analice107:
What if we look at it this way?
Am a mother, Angela is my daughter. I discover Angie pilfer, I call Angie in and tell her, my daughter, whatever I have is yours, anytime you need anything, come to me, pls don't take what belongs to others without letting them know. When they loose their stuff, it hurts them because they need their stuff. Even if it's mine, still tell me, I won't stop you from take g it, just let me know, beside stealing is very wrong, it brings shame and People would find it hard to trust you, and you need people to trust, pls my daughter don't again okay? Angie says, yes mummy.
But anytime Angie sees something and when no one is around, she will take it. Little by little it grew. When she was too young to understand the consequences, I talked to her, repeatedly. When she grew older I spanked her for others to see am not condoning her pilfering. Yet, this child won't stop. Everyday neighbours cry out because Angie haven followed their kids to their houses Angie had stolen their money.
My home is now known as a home of thieves. Now anytime something gets missing, all fingers are pointed towards my house.
One day, I couldn't take it anymore, I wear my shorts and tie my wrapper firmly on top of it and say, Angie today go be today. Enough of the embarrassment and shame then I get down on her real good. Call me whatever you like, that's your business.

Let me tell you something about my home. You do not, I repeat, do not, pick anything be it money or any other thing and bringing it home to my mother's house. When I was less than 10 was when I learned that lesson, I picked money,
No, I didn't steal it, I picked it, and I thought I was a good child so rough it back home a showed my mum, since it was the first time, My mum followed me to where I said I picked it, she said drop it there, I did, we went back home. Another time, I picked money again, I knew if I showed her, I was going to lose it, so I had it. I bought something with it and I was caught. Gracious Lord!!!! Till I leave this earth I won't forget what my mum did to me. What you described is minimal. She tied me up with a robe and actually put that pepper in my Anus and eyes and kept me in the hot sun, all the while screaming on top of her voice, no child of mine will be a thief. But I was crying and saying, I didn't steal it, she said, you will steal if you don't stop now.
When I was released, I advised myself against picking other things. Till this day, I don't pick things on the road.

While I think the punishment your mother meted out to you was very extreme and borders on child abused as defined by the law of many countries on child welfare, no one can deny that your mother did that terrible act to you out of love for you.
I am sure that she had hoped that by putting pepper into your anus you will get reformed and eventually be redeemed into a better person. That is a very good motive that cannot be faulted even though the method is faulty and reprehensible to most people.
The problem with hellfire and it is very important problem, one that separate it from the example of your mother, is that the punishment is just there for torture sake. There is no intention for the souls to be reformed or redeemed after say a certain amount of suffering and a given amount of time. The exercise is just pointless, it aims to achieve nothing but the saddistic sufferings of souls that never asked to be given life in the first place.

You told you daughter to always be good and not steal, that if she does you will put pepper in her eyes and burn her hands with fire. She disobeys you repeatedly, so one day after catching her red handed you decided that enough was enough and went ahead to pour pepper into her eyes and burn her hands in fire.
If onlookers should call you a wicked mother for that act would they be wrong? Would you see their objection to such barbaric punishment for petty theft as an indivtion that they condole stealing, or as the fact that they think the punishment is not comensurate to the crime?
Lastly, would you accuse them of not wanting your child to take responsibilty for her actions?

IamPatriotic:
Whenever I heard someone being referred to as a "pastor", the first thing that comes to my mind is a smart man who explored the failure of mankind to exploit the vulnerables of the society.

Add wicked and evil to his quality of smartness then we shall be in total agreement.

analice107:
How many times have I asked you? Would you have wished that man was without responsibilities and without Willpower?

I have never implied nor do I wish for one moment that man was without responsibilties and willpower, so I fail to see the relevance of your question.

analice107:
Your God is Yahweh? What??. And speak about him with such venom and condemnation? Icantbilivit.

My statements so far have been benign in my opinion I fail to see the venom you speak of. I only said that I find the notion that immortal souls will be tortured eternally for committing finite sins reprehensible. The fact that some people call that deity Yaweh does not change the nature of the act ascribed to Him.

analice107:
Hahahahahahahaha. Am still reeling with laughter. So as far as you go, man should be without responsibilities Yea? You illustration is so biased. You talk about fairness but you can't even attempt to pretend to be fair yourself.
You started your illustration from the dead being discovered, what put them there in the first place? I told you sir, we have talked so much about God and his hellfire, let's talk about Man's responsibilities and choices for once, Can we manage that?

I think my illustration is very fair and unbiased. Before Adam was created the bible tells us that he was nowhere, just collection of lifeless dust being swept by the wind on the earth's surface. The same applies to you and I, before we were born we never existed somewhete else. So how can it be fair to lovingly give life to and make that life miserable because the person chose to rebel?
Surely if life is a gift, then as free humans we should have the option to say no thank you for that gift and become the dust we once were.

analice107:
You confuse me, You said;
" God is amorphous, meaning different THINGS to different people, so we shouldn't talk about him as if he is the person to each one of us". (If God are different things, we can't refer to them as him yea?).
If I understand you here, you are saying or implying that your God maybe different from my God right? If your god is a thing and mine is a he, then you have no business being part of this discussion. You know why? Yahweh is he who created hellfire, hence; this discourse is about him, not about any other God or thing.

Again, you wants God put on a crucible, with an attempt to understand if it's Just and Merciful for Him to burn people in hellfire.

Let's address you a little. Your notion of God is different from my notion of God it seems, that could mean that, we serve a different God, yea? If we serve a diff. God, does your God say he will burn you in hell? If your answer is no, then shouldn't you stick to the promise your God made you? Why get so bitter (you said you are not bitter, maybe you don't understand that term) and concerned about what Yahweh my God says? He is not your God right? So what he says should not concern you.
Listen, I have never and can never bother myself with reincarnation stuff or notion. It doesn't concern me, it doesn't apply to me. I will never loose sleep over what the New Age teaches, Never. I read their books to know about them, but outside that, nothing.
You said, you have never loved your God the way you do right now. Fine, why not lovingly enjoy its/his promises? Let hellfire be for us who believe in Yahweh.
But for the sake of argument, I'll need you to specifically point out the passage of the Bible which says Yahweh burns people in hellfire.
The last I check, people who are hell bound chose it. Even when people are screaming and shouting "don't go that way, it leads to hellfire", people still consciously and willingly go there.
We are clearly given the things that if done, sets us apart and kills the part of us that should enter into everlasting life. We are given the grace to be able to live right, but we need to make a choice, a conscious and willing choice to accept the free gift of the life in Christ.

Bros, Why won't you for once talk about this other road, which leads away from hellfire? For once, let's talk about it. It shouldn't always be hellfire and whether is Just or on what moral basis does God burn people in hellfire. Let's talk about this other way through Christ this one time.

You know what? This your anger against Yahweh(which happens not to be your God BTW) would have made mighty sense, if he didn't give us an alternative. If as man sinned (which you never mention) God allowed man to follow his new adopted master to where his Master was bound, then I would have agreed with you and said, "Where then is the mercy?" but Jesus is here and I have chosen that part.

Enough about Yahweh and hellfire for a while. What promises did your god give? There's no hellfire there? Maybe I should cross over and live my life as a like afterall, when I die, it ends there right?

My God also goes by the name Yaweh, but He is different from your Yaweh with regards to how much He values life. He has given the precious gift of life to us all in limited quantity and those who use theirs well will be rewarded with unlimited life while those who used theirs foolishly will have it taken away from them.
He doesn't waste life on sinners just to watch them burning in hell.

analice107:
Hahahahahahahaha. This guy. Why won't you talk about people enjoying in heaven for once? After all, they were all given the same opportunity to choose. One chose hellfire so he will burn. Why is that God's fault? See us here right now talking about this issue, why do you refuse to Accept Jesus and choose heaven? Why are you holding so tightly on hellfire? Do you think anything about it will change?
What business do you have with hellfire? Was it created for you? Are you Satan or a demon? Well, if you yoke yourself with them, where ever they go, you will go. Lekwa

Permit me to use an illustration to show why I find the choice of eternal bliss in heaven and eternal torture in hellfire unfair.
There is this rich scientist called Jesus, on his way home from travel he found a frozen mass grave of perfectly preserved slaves that died some hundreds of years ago.
He brought all of them home with him and used his advaced scientific knowledge to revive them. Now the slaves were all happy in there new enviroment, living there was the best experirnce they have had despite the one or two chores that they were obligated to do in their masters manshion.
Then one evening after dinner, Jesus gathered all the slaves together and told them that he loves them so dearly and he wants the to come to the upper mashion were it is absolute bliss, but first they must obey all his lower house rules and any slave that fails to do so will be thrown into the dungeon where they will be tormented day and night forever.
On hearing this one of the slaves objected to the master saying " we were resting in the grave when you found us and gave us life, you said you did it out of love and we thank you for it. But we will rather you send us back to our frozen grave if you find us lacking than to torture us."
My point is that if you gave life to humans, then you have every right to take it back, but to toture what you created for eternity is just sick.

analice107:
What really happened to you? Why are you so bitter? How did God fail you?

Hello my friend, thank you for your concern about my welfare, I am truly touched by it. Nothing happened to me, I am not bitter and God did not fail me. If anything my love for God have never been stronger.
God is an amorphous word, it means different things to different people. That is why I think it is less helpful to talk about God in a general sense as if He is the same person to each one of us and more useful to talk about our notion of God and the qualities we ascribe to Him.
So my friend, this op is not an attack on the notion that there is God, rather it is an attempt to understand if the particular notion of God that burns people in hellfire holds up to the qualities of a just and merciful God.

Scholar8200:
I understand, but remember that the penitentiary here was originally reserved for inveterate fiends, not man. However if knowing this we decide to still go against God, well remember that He is both a God of Love and justice.

I understand what you are saying, but you still have not addressed the point raised in the op which is to give a reasonable justification for why it does not make God evil and wicked to have people burn in hellfire for eternity. If God did not create hell for man, it still does not change the fact that billions of humans will find themselves there if we go by the "broad is the road leading to destruction" rule of Jesus.

KingEbukasBlog:
Mtcheew . Bickering over obsolete arguments

I am really trying to understand if people truly believe that the concept of hellfire can be justified on moral ground or it is just something that one think of as totally evil but accept the fact that since it is from God then it must be right. I would really welcome your contribution.