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For anyone still interested in knowing what the Arsenal youth policy is about, you only need read Alex Song's story.


[Quote]
[size=14pt]I GREW UP WITHOUT A FATHER, ARSENE HAS BEEN MY DAD [/size]
I cried when I joined Arsenal



By Cliff Hayes, 17/04/2010

TWO hands, clasped in prayer and holding a rosary chain dangling a large cross are etched deep into Alex Song's left arm.

Underneath are simply inscribed the initials S.B.R. and the numbers 21.02.


The tattoo is a tribute to the memory of his late father Rigobert, who died on February 21, 1991 when Song was just three years old.


But it's the only memory the Arsenal star has of his tragic dad. Song was too young to remember him and, incredibly, still does not know how he died.


Growing up without a father was tough. Living in the same cramped house in Yaounde, Cameroon's capital, with 17 sisters and 10 brothers was just as hard.


And living on your own in a hotel in a foreign country as a homesick 14-year-old while jealous football coaches starve you is exceptionally rough.


But the unsung (or unSong) hero of the Emirates has not trodden the usual path to the top. He admits he spent lonely nights crying in his room after joining the Gunners from Corsican club Bastia, but that Arsene Wenger helped him through and became the father he never had.


"When I arrived at Arsenal I didn't know anyone, could not speak a word of English and hated the food," said Song.


"My first two years here were very difficult. I would cry alone in my hotel room. When I finished training I would spend all my time on the phone with my friends in France. I ran up a huge phone bill.


"I was not very confident but Arsene helped me a lot and I want to give him my biggest thanks. He had faith in me, eased my worries and made me feel very welcome.


"The club found me a flat in Enfield - complete with French television channels - and that helped me settle!"


He was even happier when his student girlfriend Olivia flew over from France to join him. She could speak English, translated all his bills and cooked the food he loved.


They married in England and now have two young sons Nolan, 3 and Kaylian, 1.


Family is so important to Song that his sons' names and birthdates are also tattooed down each arm. His wife's name is inscribed on his right wrist while his right arm carries the names of some of his brothers and sisters but "it's not long enough to have them all."


And Song, 23, admits: "My life changed with the birth of my first son. Now I am so happy. I want to give everything for my sons because I never had a father.


"When I was at school all my friends were picked up by their dads. But I had nobody. That affected me a lot.


"I still don't know how Dad died. It was so difficult to come to terms with because I was so young. And I have never asked Mum about it, even to this day.


"All I know is that he died when I was three. Now, every time I walk off the Emirates pitch I look up to see my wife and sons it makes me so happy. My family come to every home game. They are my motivation."


As a youngster growing up in poverty-torn Africa, his only motivation was football.


His mother Catherine tried to stop him playing because she wanted him to focus on his education. But as Song confesses: "School was not my favourite subject. I only wanted to play football."


He admits he doesn't remember much about his life in Cameroon, growing up with his father's 27 offspring from different wives.


But when he was eight, his mother and an aunt took him and two of his brothers to carve out a new life in Paris.

Destiny
While his mother worked as a cleaner, they all lived in a cramped one-bed apartment in Paris before moving to a slightly bigger place in Seine-Saint Denis. It was the move that would launch his career. From his front door, the young Song could almost touch the famous Red Star stadium - home to the club founded by World Cup creator Jules Rimet and where fellow Gunners team-mate Abou Diaby started out.


"When I realised I was living opposite the stadium I thought football would be my destiny," says Song.


He asked one of the coaches if he could play "but when I told Mum I needed my papers to play for Red Star she said: 'No chance.' However, the manager persuaded her to let me play."


Now 13, Song starred in the youth team wearing a pair of cheap boots he had bought from the market near his home.


He played there for seven months until a woman agent phoned him after one tournament to offer him a place at Michael Essien's former club, Bastia in Corsica.


"Mum didn't want me to go," recalls Song. "And my first three months there were very difficult. I was living on my own in a hotel. I was just 14, homesick and thought: 'I can't stay here.'


"But the manager Francois Ciccolini took me to his house, gave me food and bought me new clothes.


"Then one day, the academy coaches had a meeting about which one of us would be good enough to play in the first team.


"Francois pointed at me and said: 'Only him.' After that the other coaches would say: 'Don't give him food.' They tried to starve me to make their players look better."


But when Ciccolini was promoted to first team manager, Song - still only 16 - made his debut.


He still remembers his first wage packet and recalls: "It was 3,000 euros. I had never seen so much money. I celebrated by going shopping. I was used to bartering for clothes in the markets - now I was going to top fashion stores."


"I spent all the money very quickly because it was my first money from football.


"But I wasn't concerned about having a good life from football, I just wanted to play."


Then, at 17, he got the phone call from a coach at Bastia that would catapult him to Arsenal and a dream meeting with his hero Thierry Henry and the rest of the Arsenal Invincibles.


"He told me Arsene Wenger wanted me to come to Arsenal," says Song. But I didn't believe him. For me, Arsenal was THE team. Everyone at Bastia wanted to play for Arsenal. Not Barcelona, nor Real Madrid, nor Manchester United.


"To play with Thierry Henry, Dennis Bergkamp, Robert Pires, Freddie Ljungberg, Patrick Vieira. But when I got the call I thought it was a joke.


"It was only when we arrived at London Colney and I saw the Arsenal training ground that I believed him.


"Then I met Arsene Wenger. He told me he had seen me play for Bastia and wanted me at Arsenal.


"Then Thierry embraced me and said, in French: 'Welcome to Arsenal.'


"I couldn't believe it. I was 17. Then Dennis tried to talk to me, but I couldn't speak English.


"I was in awe of them. I went on the pre-seaon tour to Austria and I remember thinking: 'If Arsenal let me go now I will still go home happy. When I got back to the hotel on that first day I rung my friends and all they asked was: 'Get Thierry's shirt for me!' After the Austria trip I went back to Bastia and didn't hear anything for three weeks. I thought I had done something wrong.


"But then Arsene phoned me and said: 'I want you to come to Arsenal.'"


Fast forward five years and Song is now the driving force in Arsenal's midfield with three Premier League man-of-the- match bottles of bubbly sitting in his Radlett home.




SONG: With WengerInjury forced him to miss Wednesday's 2-1 defeat at Spurs which virtually ended the Gunners' title bid this season.


But Song is desperate to win silverware to repay the debt he owes Wenger.


As he prepared for today's trip to Wigan, Song added: "Arsene is the best manager in the world and I look upon him as a father, my new dad. He puts his trust in young players like no other.


He works very hard every single day to make us better and we want to win something for him.


"Of course, it is important to win trophies but, remember, we are still a very young team.


"We know our fans want a trophy and we are very close to winning something.


"My message to our fans is: 'Believe in us. This team will get better.'


"I am at the right club. Forget Barcelona, Arsenal is the best club.


"Arsenal have given me everything and I love this place. If I had to leave I would break down and cry. It's still my dream to win the league here."


And if Arsenal do eventually win the title, Song has just enough space on his left arm for a Premier League trophy tattoo,[/quote]And this is the same player DK will come and try to prove to us was a made player before he came to Arsenal.  

For those still wondering, it has taken that same 5 trophyless years to develop this player who is now a first team member being missed on days like this.

I'm sure Cesc, Clichy, Bendtner et al would have similar stories to tell and this is why I believe this youth policy can work given time.

@all

I can't answer you all at the same time, the bottom line is we failed because the team isn't good enough just yet. Yes you can point at Almunia/Fabianski/Clichy/Denilson/Diaby/Bendtner, the next guy to mess up tomorrow. The truth is, at the tail end of the season, injuries and all took their toll. Yes we could have more players (according to some we should probably have 10 strikers in the squad), yes we could have a world class keeper, yes we were beaten by Wigan who spend less than us and all the other blah blah blah.

The fact remains, that this team punches above its weight, is young and growing, needs reinforcements YES, but think on this while you hurt. Maybe I should stop being a cry baby everytime my club loses (and I address this to those who see themselves as true fans and not just jumping on some past success bandwagon).

Frankly speaking the reaction of some Arsenal fans to defeat make me sick. I looked at Chelsea's board after their defeat to Tottenham yesterday and there was nothing near this overreaction yesterday.

Here I shall bow out of this forum until y'all have calmed down and gained some modicum of perspective.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5913198#msg5913198 date=1271606863]Hehehe i suspect a few[b] Iya Charlie notes have changed hands! No one can knowingly defend such blatant failure for a free.99 Duduspace u berra start [/b] talking
We need to start looking at Arsene like your average sit-tight politician in Africa i mean the likes of Mobutu,Babangida,Abacha,Idi Amin e.t.c
Chamotex abeg play Trowey by Terry G for me thats the message fans should be sending to the man[/quote]A-40 na which kain Naija mentality be dis one? I follow Arsenal all the way and its in my blood and I want a club that will remain at the top end and viable 20 years down the line. Arsene IMO is still the best man to lead Arsenal.

eldee:
What are Adebayor and Toure?? or were they too old?? We will keep losing the best ones because that's what big clubs do, they buy the best ready-made players. . . let's leave talent hunting to the youth squad not the first 11.
Come on . . . Wenger told us to expect world-class players, and you're counting Eboue and 3months a season Van Persie?? BTW . . . u did see Clichy today right??

Adebayor and Toure were dropped because they were no longer good enough to not be dropped (what have they done at City where they moved to?) and we made money dropping them. I haven't watched the game and Clichy might have had a shocker today but he's also done very well in the past. You can't make a call on a single game?

eldee:
Yeah . . . while I'm going into the sixth trophyless season and the shareholders are smiling to the bank??

All the money made is being ploughed back into the club. even if the club has been making a profit of 40 million per year (which it hasn't) x5 would give you only 200m still quite some distance from the level of debt that these so called big clubs have or the reported 250m Abramovic put into Chelsea. Remember we're still paying back on the stadium too.

eldee:
Yeah, the same way Barcelona and Man Utd have gone into their own administration??
Stop letting them feed you with lies, the chances of a trophy winning team with a massive stadium and fans all over the world going into administration for spending the odd million on Buffon and Villa is B.S.

They may not have, but it is clear to the wise that those levels of spending are unsustainable and people are now cutting costs (apart from the mad peeps at Madrid and the sheikhs at City). Liverpool didn't go the same route we did and tried competing based on spending and yes they did pick the odd trophy but which club would you rather support right now?

eldee:
Show me Barcelona's oil sheik . . . and Man Utd's one.
So people weren't buying players before Abu Dhabi landed in England??

Do we have Manure's debt level or Barcelona's? Do we have the same status for England as Barcelona has for the Catalans with the accompanying government protection?

Even before Arsene came, Manure always had a richer history than we did that is fact.

loyika:
Duduspace

WILL BUYING A DECENT GOAL KEEPER MAKE ARSENAL BANKRUPT!!

Stop defending this man His project was laudable and we all backed him, BUT IT HAS bleeping FAILED!! If Arsene buys players and the team comes up short, then we know its not his fault (even if he will take the blame) But to not buy is a cop out

When supporters stop coming to games or buying tickets, will he then realise that players like Diaby are not fit to wear the shirt!! Ray palour doesn't have Diaby's skill, BUT HE HAS GUTS AND STAMINA! Freddie is no Rozzi!! BUT HE WAS A MONSTER FOR THE SHIRT! No one in this team even has a right to be mentioned in the same sentence as Pires!!

What we saw out there (even when we were 2 nil up) was not the Arsenal team!! (only Sol is worthy to wear that shirt) As far as i am concerned, MY SEASON ENDED AT THE LANE!!

Like i said, Citeh should do us all a favour next week and put an end to this charade!!

GOONER 89

Loyika, I haven't seen the game but would you say all the goals were solely the fault of the keeper?  now when you start with buying a world class keeper, you'll move from their gradually to buying a whole world class team. Unfortunately we don't have that money and we are BUILDING a world class team while trying not to drop performance levels too much. Until we get our Oil sheikh like City (even though that is becoming less fashionable)

presido1:
You have started clutching at straws again, what concerns United--Burnley game with that show of shame from AW and his infantry today.

On the day, we were well beaten and threw away a lead true, but its not as if the whole of our season hinged on only this game anyway. If I was going into a game my season hinged on, I don't think I would want to go into it as depleted as we were. People are just goin overboard with the results, even though I would have loved to see my club lose the league with a little more fight and not keep on exposing their naiviety for all and sundry to see.

eldee:
Now you go back to my point about how we're working against the mind-set of our so called products.
The best ones leave . . . the Eboues and Walcotts stay.
It's almost impossible to pursue this dream in today's football. . . look at Ajax now, since money became the biggest thing, they've become a selling club.
You think they won't have been UCL threats if they had the power to keep Ibrahimovich, Huntelaar, Maxwell, Van Der Sar, Rafael van der Vaart, Wesley Sneijder, John Heitinga, Piennar, Nigel de Jong and the other stars they created??

It is difficult YES, but I don't believe its impossible. We haven't lost any upcoming talents since Flamini, its just that on the whole they are still mostly young. Of the older ones, we haven't lost RVP, Eboue or Clichy.

eldee:
Wenger is risking his reputation as a manager and I'm not even sorry for him . . . he's just daft.

I agree he is risking his reputation but isn't that what every manager does when he takes a job? he might be taking on more risk fair enough but its one he is willing to live with and I respect him for that.

eldee:
Ask any fan, we don't mind owing millions as long as we get a regular supply of trophies . . . especially now that UEFA's not taken any action against it. Barcelona are sacred cows now only because they're winning, their finances are scary too.

Until Administration comes calling you mean? and don't repeat the mantra that there will always be someone to buy the club. Gillet and Hick's travails at Liverpool is enough of a warning.

Every dog has its day, its the same way Burnley beat you lot earlier in the season.

arkinses:
I swear just google "Next season", click on "I'm feeling lucky", 5million hits would be directed at Arsenal Football club. Buncha nitwits

Speak to the hand mate.

At the end of the day, we basically weren't good enough, even Spurs are closing off their season in style but we seem to be limping to the finishing line in the 3rd position. Next season is another time, winners are made from experiences like this. Keep the core of the squad and get in able reinforcement with winning mentality.
3rd and 4th choice CB pairing, 3rd choice holding MF, 2nd choice striker, 2nd choice playmaker but we should have still been able to beat Wigan. Arsene should rotate more earlier on in the season.

Not a nice way to close off the season, some shocking performances I would expect cos I didn't watch the match.

To be honest eldee, I don't think Arsene was forced into it. I think he believes in such a system as well. Yes he had to carry a lot of pressure at some times like last season (when frankly speaking we were poor, we regressed , when we should have gone on from the 07/08 season).

But I do believe we've learnt from losing guys like Flamini and Hleb which is why we had the slew of long term contracts in December (though it started with tying Cesc down to that ridiculously long contract till 2014 about 2 seasons ago) I'm sure if we didn't do that we could have lost Cesc this summer with the noise Barca is making. They know fully well now that they might need to pay in the range Madrid payed for CR9 and that is why they are trying to unsettle the lad in such a shameful manner.

Fingers crossed, we won't have a repeat of the 08/09 summer and we'll keep the core of our team and improve it, also this team still has the capacity to increase even from within.

Anything to report guys? who is making a good impression? how is Eastmond doing? seems Diaby is having a shocker, is he tired or something or has Barcelona broken his spirit? he's been having a shocker since the Brum game where he shone like a million start, I thot the lad had crossed the rubicon.

On a secondary note, one of our younger talents Connor Henderson is on the bench today, you might want to take a look at him if he gets to play.

eldee:
Exactly . . . he said one thing and said the exact opposite in one breath.
You can't compete on the basis that 'all the good players cannot go to Chelsea' . . . it's just like saying 'We're competing for all the trophies because Chelsea cannot win everything' that's not competing, that's playing second fiddle.

Besides you say it like there are no other clubs that are stronger than us in the market . . . Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool and probably Spurs if they get a UCL spot.
In my own opinion, Wenger is making himself the sacrificial lamb, he's being the one to lie to handle the fans instead of fighting for his full managerial rights having being here for years.

Read between the lines, spending is not the only way to achieve success, other means may take more time YES but they can succeed as well as just throwing money at the problem. Y'all just want a quick fix but there are none in the path we've chosen, even money doesn't achieve immediate success as City have shown.
He ain't no sacrificial lamb, most of the fans who follow the club week in and out already know what is going on, even if Arsene decides to go today  a lot of us will still acknowledge what he has done, you cannot deny that he has set this club on a path of sustainable success, but like Gazidis said, I don't believe his legacy is written yet, I believe he has earned the right to see his plan come to fruition.

@Debosky

I have never claimed Arsene is perfect in all he does, no one is, we all have the benefit of hindsight now (though there is nothing to suggest that these things you claim would have guaranteed trophies). The fact however remains that we are doing the best we can within our means, no one can deny that.

eldee:
@duduspace

Wenger is a degree holder . . . he speaks like a poet.
Leaving the most important thing at the end

'However they cannot all go to Chelsea, it is as simple as that. There are top players outside of the ones Chelsea want to buy who are good enough for us."

Here's Wenger telling us that we will still play second fiddle to Chelsea in the transfer market. We will buy Chelsea rejects and we will not do anything about our wage bill.

He has stated the obvious, we will always pay within our means but Chelsea can always tap into Abramovic's pocket true enough. But despite that he still believes we can compete (like I said, in a different way). And it is very true that all the good players cannot go to Chelsea, we did get Vermaelen and Arshavin remember?
If the truth of our situation still hasn't hit you with that statement then I don't know what will convince you.

@Debo
Here is what I've always said confirmed from Le Prof's mouth, now let someone come prove this is untrue.


[Quote]
Wenger - We have money to overtake Chelsea
Arsène Wenger believes Arsenal have the financial muscle to overtake Chelsea next season.

The Frenchman knows that the Stamford Bridge side are always capable of outbidding him for new players. But the Arsenal manager argues there is enough talent around to add to his squad this summer and, crucially, he has the funds to go and buy them.

The two clubs have had contrasting weeks. Chelsea tightened their grip on the Premier League trophy with a 1-0 win over Bolton while Arsenal's challenge faltered after they lost 2-1 at Tottenham.

Attention has now turned to how the Emirates Stadium side can bridge the divide. Speaking at Friday's press conference. Wenger was in bullish mood.

"I think we can overcome [Chelsea]," he said. "For a while we were not investing maybe because we had built the stadium but I think our financial situation is now becoming much stronger and we will be capable to buy the players we need to buy."

"No we cannot [compete] on wages with Chelsea. That is simple. I believe what is not normal is not our wage bill but their wage bill because that should not be allowed.

"However they cannot all go to Chelsea, it is as simple as that. There are top players outside of the ones Chelsea want to buy who are good enough for us."[/quote]

From the Arsenal site, this is has good as saying that he has already signed, classy club that we are, don't want to disrespect Bordeaux.

[Quote]
Wenger - Chamakh has a good chance to join us

Arsène Wenger has admitted that there is "a good chance" Marouane Chamakh will start next season as an Arsenal player.

The Bordeaux striker has netted 15 times for his current club this season, including five goals in the Champions League. He has been heavily linked with a move to Arsenal since last summer and with his current contract drawing to an end, he will be available on a free transfer in June.

Chamakh has reportedly confirmed that Emirates Stadium is his first-choice destination and Wenger admits there is a good chance the Moroccan will move to Arsenal.

"We will announce the deals after the league [finishes]," he said.

"He is one of the players who has a good chance to join us."[/quote]

debosky:
Maybe I've gone off the edge a bit, and I apologise to Dudu if I got out of line.

To be fair to him, he' indicated we need a striker, a CB and a goalkeeper, so he's not saying the squad is there.

HOWEVER - his unshaken faith in Arsene is what worries me - since 2008, we've had MINIMAL movement in the transfer windows, only signing one player each time and Arshavin came as a result of a Cesc emergency that could take away 4th place.

It appears Wenger is simply content to be 3rd/4th and somehow HOPE the team manage to rise beyond their obvious limitations by keeping them around together longer. He fails to make the transfers needed, claiming he has enough quality when he doesn't. His focus on doing things his own way, through players he's blended instead of bringing in what is necessary to supplement his good work - that is my grouse.

He appears to be content with us into a club that remains close to the top but never able to truly challenge for the big prize (except in years the rivals go into semi meltdown). That is simply not acceptable - not for the richest (club value), biggest (fan base, stadium) and most successful London club.

You do Arsene a disservice here, he has always come out to say he knew the constraints under which he would be before taking the job. We have not bought more that one player each season because there has been no money to buy more than one, also because we've gone for a youth policy there was need to pay competitive salaries and tie young promising players to long term contracts.

I did an analysis with my brother earlier today about what Arsene needs to buy during the window (he strongly believes we need an MF like Melo along with a CB, GK and striker) now we started attaching costs to these requirements to get players of a calibre better than or at the same level with what we have.

GK (8m to 12m)
CB (10m to 15m)
Striker (Good news we're likely getting Chamakh on a free but if we need to buy, about 15m to 20m)
MF (10m to 15m)

Giving a gross outlay of (43m to 62m) in terms of tranfer fees alone without considering the wages, now I pointed out that I couldn't remember the last time Arsene spent over 25m in a single transfer window. Not because he doesn't want to spend but because the funds are simply not available (even the rumored 45m transfer kitty might not really get us what we need).

IMO, we will once again need to prioritise and we'll most likely be getting a top class CB and possibly a GK (depending on what funds really are available), getting Chamakh would be a very favourable deal for us and we can promote within to fill the other gaps. The critical thing we need to do is to hold on to our core first teamers like Cesc (so we don't regress like happened in 07/08), we are in better position to do this because unlike in 07/08, we now have nearly all our youngsters tied to long term contracts (an initiative some of you have actually condemned in the past) and we are also doing well financially.

Since the dispersal of the Invincibles, its really been about waiting for this team to grow while trying to plug the more obvious problems at the cheapest costs possible, its the reality of the Arsenal that I've come to and one I've made my peace with as the alternatives don't look any better to me. No Oil sheikh has come to buy us (and I don't want any to) and the thought of debts is also not attractive.

Besides a reality check about finances seems to be hitting everyone generally these days, you only need take a look at Manure's recent purchases spending between 6m to 10m to get a player your much maligned Vela has outperformed at every level up till now within the national mexican setup and less than 4m to buy the likes of Diouf and Obertan in their early 20s, you would agree with me this is bargain buying compared to 25m and 12m they payed for the likes of Rooney and CR9 at younger ages. Seems like City are the only ones with limitless pockets these days.

debosky:
Unfortunately, Chelski losing will give Wenger more excuses to make regarding why we failed against Spurs.

I just hope it doesn't take a complete disaster of a season for the likes of Duduspace to see the light.

Deboooo, yu need to get a grip man, the true position of Arsenal should be clear to you by now. There would have been less stress for all if someone had come out to tell everyone that we were moving into uncharted territory when we decided to build a stadium, but the truth is that no one will come out to say that.

If you look deep into what we are trying to achieve (and I say we because I buy in totally into the club's principles), it was never going to be easy to pull off. Our ability to stay competitive in the interim has served as a double edged sword because people deal more in absolutes than relatives (unfortunately the world works more in terms of relatives) and that is why you can compare Arsenal with the likes of Tottenham (who are unable to compete at the level we do but pick up the odd trophy) as well as compare us with the likes of RM, Barcelona, Chelsea who are able to sweep all and sundry before them on any given day simply because of the financial advantage they enjoy or in the case of Barca (who actually enjoy the best of both worlds) because of the talent their academy and youth system produces.

We are very unique in this regards, would it surprise you at all if I tell you that Spurs have actually spent more than us in the past 5 years in transfer fees? possibly even Villa have, the only area we have spent more than those clubs is our overall wage bill.
One of the positives is that we are well set for the future (still speaking relatively) even if Arsene were to leave, the negatives is that so far we are neither here nor there.

Yes, with a little more luck and less commitment to our youth development principles, we could have picked up the odd trophy (the Carling cup match against Chelsea in particular) but even this wasn't guaranteed, and in the process we wouldn't reap some of the benefits of exposing our younger talents early. We strive for balance but are yet to reach it but I do believe we will get there, this season has been very encouraging in that regards.

All sorts of permutations and combinations, yet with 3 games to go no winner yet, What a season.

I never thought the day would come I'll be rooting for the Spuds, if they can just go ahead and do the unthinkable to keep City out of the Top 4 for one more season, that would prevent real quality player from joining City yet again due to lack of UCL participation. That is some serious bad belle for city and I hope none of their fans are reading this. 
They could also help us stall Manure's title challenge as they'll likely do to Chelsea today.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5909435#msg5909435 date=1271524992]@Apostle Duduspace
I thought we where trying to copy Ajax & Barca? An academy that can only produce one world class player in five years is a waste! If a university provided just one first class graduate once every five years that university would have all its academic staff fired! By the way how many of these so-called players play key roles for their countries?[/quote]Bendtner is the main striker for Denmark and played every game of their world cup qualification and got a lot of goals too, Alex Song is a main man in Cameroon's squad and Cesc is a major player for spain, Aaron Ramsey is the best talent in Wales since Gigg's and is the fulcrum of the emerging welsh national team.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5909435#msg5909435 date=1271524992]We can join those two if we take the competition serious! I cringe in disgust when some of us look down on certain cups! a team winless in 5 seasons has not earned the right to do that. The outspent thing is just an excuse it does not justify 5 seasons of winning none in 20 tries and 3 seasons without even reaching a Final. I won't join you to endorse mediocrity[/quote]I don't only believe we can join them, I believe we will join them in time, our youth policy has fallen short again but with the improvements I see there is no reason why we should fall short next season. The general strength in depth of the club has grown because we have exposed our youngsters early.
You don't need to endorse anything, you only need to face up to the reality of Arsenal.
1. We don't have a sugar daddy (and I personally don't even want one)
2. We don't spend as much as the other big clubs (and I also don't want us to cos it isn't sustainable)
3. We have gone for a policy that requires time to bear fruit, I see a steady progress that tells me bear fruit it shall and I'm willing to wait for this.

Frankly speaking, I don't think anyone (Arsene included) looks down on any Cup, all cups are there to be won. There is however something called priority and all the cups come after The League and the UCL (in that order of priority).

dayokanu:
RvP is now a product of Arsenal youth program? Are you guys so desperate to claim whats not yours?

OK Henry and Kanu are also youth products since they came in at 21

I was responding to your response about a "Youth Program", or what exactly is your definition of a youth program? have you seen a top class team playing a team consisting of all U20s before?
I only gave you a list of our players and the ages at which they arrived to show you that we get players at very young ages and give them the opportunity to progress into our team. I never claimed anyone.
Overall when you look at the ages of Arsenal's first team players and the ages at which they arrived at Arsenal, then only someone hiding from the truth like yourself would say that Arsenal doesn't have a youth policy.
Our team is made of up of predominantly young players who arrived young and moved through the ranks and that is what a youth policy means as opposed to the galacticos policy of buying the world's best at their peak.

dayokanu:
What youth program exactly are you talking about.

In Arsenals first 11 Almunia, Sagna, TV5, Gallas, Van persie, Arshavin, Nasri, Denilson, are not from your academy so what youth program exactly? Justin Hoyte, ALiadiere, Owusu-Abeyie, or which youths exactly.

The same youth fraud that WenGAY has fed you for years. Where are the youths of yesteryears I mean the youth of 2006, 2005 Djourou, Senderos, Lupoli, Muamba etc Dont they ever grow up??

Why the magomago of considering the first team when you know very well a lot of those 1st teamers had extended time out to injury?

RVP came to Arsenal at 21
Diaby came to Arsenal at 19
Denilson came to Arsenal at 18 (still U23)
Cesc, Theo, Bendtner, Clichy, Song,  (all in our first team came to Arsenal U17 years old and bar Clicy are still U23)
Ramsey, Traore, Djorou, Merida, Vela, Gibbs (all squad members and regularly on the bench came to Arsenal U17 and bar Djorou are still U21)

That is 14 members of a squad of about 22 players who came to Arsenal 21 years and younger.

If that is not a youth policy I wonder what is? maybe we are supposed to be snatching babies from their mothers perhaps? now that would be in true Nazi fashion.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5908893#msg5908893 date=1271518238]@Apostle Duduspace
They ran into 250m debt but have won 2 UCL's and 3 la liga titles in our trophyless span. If 250m debt would win us 2 UCL's and 3 EPL titles then lets go and borrow some more money. You keep talking about player development but Cesc Fabregas is the only world class player Wenger has developed in 5 years.
And what makes you even think we can't be another Valencia or Schalke if we keep losing key players who leave out of frustration[/quote]Have you seen any academy that turns out World class players every year? all the players we turn out play for their countries, they may not all be Messi class players but then there is a reason why there is only one World footballer of the year.

How many of our players have actually left and gone on to better things? more precisely how many of our players have actually said they left out of frustration We cannot be another Valencia because we are paying off our debts while they were struggling to pay player's salaries.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5908893#msg5908893 date=1271518238]We can win the CC if we want to but Wenger has never won it since he came to England! Let us set the Carling cup as our goal first cos never in the history of niggerdom have i seen a choosy beggar! Man U did it in 06 and it gave them the umph to vie for bigger titles
Carling Cup is better than Emirates Cup! So if you are not tired of Emirates Cup i am.

To answer your question i would take Europe. So riddle me this. . . Is there a rule that automatically disqualifies you from playing in Europe if you win the CC? Can't we win a cup and still finish in the top 4? Are we that whack?[/quote]Yes, the 2 are not mutually exclusive but the only 2 clubs who have succeeded in doing the 2 in recent history are Manure and Chelsea who outspend us whether you believe it or not. I am as frustrated as you are at not winning only difference is I don't throw the baby out with the bath water and I face the reality of our situation.

debosky:
Without a the repeated trophies at Highbury do you think anyone would take us seriously when we wanted to build the Emirates? Do you think we'd have such a large fan base in the first place without trophies? Financial sustainability is not good, but a lack of trophies will ULTIMATELY wreck that as well - we need to start winning NOW - 5 years in the modern era is a VERY long time.

Yep, long enough to spend yourself into big time trouble if you think you can compete with the big clubs by spending. 5 years is a short time to actualise a youth strategy and keep it going sustainably.

debosky:
Well said Slim, what I can't stand is painting things as if we haven't failed.
We have failed - regardless of the nice words dudu and co try to coat it with!

In terms of winning trophies YES, in the grand scheme of things, NO.

debosky:
One more thing you must note is that this is ARSENAL FC for goodness sake, the third most successful club in the English league and the biggest club in London. Our standards are supposed to be some of the highest - comparing ourselves to the best in the land and not to some rich upstarts who are trying to get by.

This season, we will still at least come 3rd in the league so in a sense we have not lost our position, the biggest club in london? in terms of the fan base YES, in terms of monetary investment in the past 10 years NO.
Comparing ourselves to some rich upstarts (trying to get by? isn't that an oxymoron Debo?) I think not cos we are not competing with them in terms of money we are competing using a different strategy because we've rightly come to the conclusion that it is an unsustainable way to compete. And money does matter, as City have shown in recent times. We should count ourselves lucky we have a manager who is able to compete in a different way.

debosky:
I know I've thrown in conjecture, but NO ONE here can say they didn't see the need for another CB in the summer, or another striker in January, Instead, Wenger sold the future saying he might get Chamakh free and that was a better deal? Are we interested in deals or winning?

The repeated failures to do what is necessary is what is getting to me - we are not doing what is patently obvious we need to do, while hoping year after year that we can somehow muddle through? No chance.

We must try to keep the high performers - the best way to keep them is to bring in people they know improve the side. Cesc will not be around for more than one more season if we continue like this - I can guarantee that.

Actually, I think Cesc will be off after we win a trophy its a bit funny but I think he wants to win something for us. Everything is obvious with hindsight Debo, a new CB aint likely to stop Messi at the camp Nou, neither would a new CB stop Almunia's errors. Overall, we are where we deserve to be based on what we've spent but I see improvement in this team from last season.
We keep the good and improve the obvious lapses to the best of what we can afford (and I trust Arsene enough to get the best deals such as those that brought Vermaelen and Arshavin) and I'll keep on believing in this team until it wins.

[quote author=~Sauron~ link=topic=400313.msg5907361#msg5907361 date=1271497783]How have Arsenal progressed with having a net income of 30 milla and United have regressed with a net income of 80 million?
There's something wrong with your math!!![/quote]Progress in terms of league your league position which is the truest benchmark of the strength of your squad. Cup competitions do not show strength of your squad as exemplified by Pompey's relegation or would you say Portsmouth is a strong club if they were to beat Chelsea to the FA cup? Manure has dropped 1 place, Chelsea has gained 1, Arsenal has gained 1 while Liverpool has dropped drastically (even if they win the UEFA cup).

debosky:
All that is hot air - we have 'progressed' in ONLY one area and retrogressed in the other two - our league position has improved, but our CL and FA cup progress was WORSE. I'm no mathematician, but if you retrogress in two out of three areas, that is a net retrogression!

Absolute bollocks - Nani has IMMENSE capacity to improve, so do Gibson, Anderson, Smalling, Rafael and a whole host of other Utd squad members. If we hope the likes of Vela can improve, Utd have Macheda, Diouf, Welbeck and others they can hope on as well, not to talk of their settled defence with established and battle hardened winners who will still be around for a while to come.

We need to stop fooling ourselves with this 'much younger squad' nonsense - the other clubs are not standing still and the so called advantage we have is a MIRAGE that is used to continually sell the future.

Who are the they?? Was Rafael not ' brought through'? Was Gibson not 'brought through'? Keep trying to console yourself - with regards to young talent, Utd can match anything we have, PLUS having established and experience players who can deliver NOW while imparting all that knowledge to the youngsters.

All we have is a talented group of youngsters STILL LACKING the cutting edge that only experience and rubbing minds with experience can bring. We will continue to stagnate at the rate we are going, except Wenger realises his folly and makes corrections.

Cup competition are never a true test of strength, a Vidic send off in the final and the entire game could have been different. You only need to look at Pompey this year or Everton in the 1990s when Amokachi was there. Won FA cup and got relegated. The truest indicator of the strength of your squad is your league position. Don't just look at individuals, look at the average age of the squad, I've already given you in an earlier post. And that talented squad gets experience annually. And can I ask you what exactly this group of Manure youngsters have won? Carling Cup? can you post the team list on the day they wond and tell me how many of the youngsters actually played?
Yes Manure brought some players through but also bought the like of Berba for 30m while Arsene has bought the likes of Silvestre for less than 1m, and brought Sol in on a free, you get what you buy and don't even bother asking me why Arsenal didn't buy Berba if you're not ready to donate that 30 m as its got to come from somewhere.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5906482#msg5906482 date=1271471219]@Duduspace
Do we wait 50 years too? Wetin concern us with Chelsea? Let Arsenal win common Carling Cup before you juxtapose us with Barca abeg and even they had to buy world class players like Ronnie,Eto'o,Deco,Larsson and Giuly! Chic ain't cheap
We might not have dropped out of the top 4 in 12 years but 7 titles in 13 years is mediocre. Top 8 in Europe? When teams have won it twice since they changed it to the UCL? Is this what we should be toasting to? Alhamdulilahi[/quote]Hence the reason they ran up that 250m+ debt, you can't eat your cake and have it. If you toast Arsenal's success in moving to a new stadium, being financially prudent, developing young players. Then you've got to take the good with the bad. And I don't believe we'll need to wait 50 years, just that 5 seasons is not too long a time in terms of what we're doing.
Also, in the period yu've mentioned we've maintained our level of performance, just take a look at Valencia and Schalke and see what happens to big clubs when they build new stadia.
Arsenal can win a Carling cup if they set that as their goal, you never answered my previous question on making a choice between winning the Carling cup yearly and getting into Europe yearly.

debosky:
The day I accept such mediocrity is the day I stop following Arsenal football club.

Just watch what will happen - the ridiculous thing is expecting Utd and Chelski to get worse.

Apart from Giggs and Scholes, who is getting worse for Utd? Rooney, Nani, Gibson, Carrick, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Fletcher, Park amongst others will not get worse.

Who will get worse for Chelski? The core of the team - Terry, Cech, Bosingwa, Cole, Essien, Lampard, Drogba will still be there firing next year. Liverpool will do their best to step up, and lets not mention what Citeh will do.

What you have not considered is what each club has done to get to where it is from the last season to this.

Chelsea has basically done nothing to effectively stay where they are (no net spend)
Liverpool has retrogressed by basically doing nothing (1 outgoing player and 1 incoming but no net spend)
Manure has retrogressed by losing a player(CR7) and gaining 3(Obertan, Valencia, Dioug) with a net income in the region of 60m
Arsenal has progressed by losing 2 players and bringing one in with a net income of 30m

Our team is young with the capacity to improve more than the others (which the likes of Song and Bendtner have demonstrated in recent times and no reason to believe the likes of Ramsey and Vela can't do likewise) because overall we have a much younger squad compared to the others and are accepted to currently have the best academy in the PL so what exactly is the basis for pessimism.
They also believe in buying to solve their problems, we believe in bring players through and have a good conveyor belt of talent in place already.

debosky:
In fact we have better talent coming through but we can't beat Spurs who just lost to Portsmouth 3 days earlier after resting for 8 days. We are looking at Utd and saying they regressed because they drew away, but we are 'better' despite losing away.

Its over the entire season and not just the last match against Tottenham, every dog has its day as Tottenham showed after 11 years.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5906251#msg5906251 date=1271463045]@Duduspace
5 seasons is enough to fail anyone's beliefs my guy. We are fans and not Auschwitz camp inmates. You say 'if' we had won but we failed again. Policy or no policy if a couple got married and after 5 years of consistent sleep with.ging and no conception i think it would not be outta line if they went to see a fertility doc[/quote]How long exactly is 5 years? lets take some time scales:

Chelsea didn't win the league for 50 years, then won it 2 times in 2 years when an individual pumped money into the club with the club still indebted to this individual.
Barcelona didn't win anything for 6 years while building a youth policy, then won everything last year, 2 UCL championships in 3 seasons and look on cause to come close again this season and while stabilizing their youth policy still bought a lot of big name players without winning anything (cos they did run up a 300m debt in the process)
Nottingham Forest won the champions cup twice in 3 years in the 1980s but have been out of the PL for about 15 years now

Now Arsenal wouldnt have won any trophy for the past 5 seasons if we win nothing by the end of this season but in the past 12 years have not droppped out of the topmost 4 clubs in the PL, in the past 4 years have consistently been in the top 8 in europe, now given a choice between what we have achieved and winning the Carling cup yearly and being in Tottenham's position never getting into the UCL, which would you take? My point being that things can be oversimplified by the statement Arsenal haven't won anything in the past 6 years.

And about that couple, would they also not be outta line to start Dibia consultations? or going for baths around midnight at bar beach?

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5906251#msg5906251 date=1271463045]You say we where given no chance and i ask since when did The Arsenal sink to that abyss?[/quote]It is an abyss created by the media and the well meaning albeit short sighted fans.


[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5906251#msg5906251 date=1271463045]How much longer would The Arsenal settle for such mediocrity? Clearly Wenger must have learnt Universal Mind Control in Japan because this mass hypnosis is beyond me what even irks me the most is when y'all talk about improvement! We won nothing last season and would win nothing most likely this season so what else has changed except the diapers on Wenger's babies? Improvement is going from trophyless in one season to carling cup to the league and then the league and UCL and then the league & carling cup again not 5 seasons of barreness where we have not even featured in a final in 3 seasons! That ain't improvement thats mediocrity[/quote]Mediocrity can be defined on many levels but basically is when you've lost the ability to compete, we have not lost that. When I talk about improvement, I'm going season by season. Last season we didn't compete for the PL (which is the standard for the strength of your squad) but this season we did which shows that our squad has improved. The 2 clubs that have retrogressed in the top 4 this season are Manure and Liverpool.

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=400313.msg5906251#msg5906251 date=1271463045]You say you don't know any manager that can manage with the little he gets. Fair enough let him go to Madrid where he would be given a blank cheque. Haha he may have forgotten how to win trophies but he is no fool he is well aware no elite club in europe would tolerate no trophies for two seasons never mind five[/quote]Well, we are not Madrid and don't have the same principles, the earlier fans absorb this fact, the less of nooses we'll see out there.