Orhogbua:



1.Oranmiyan didnt he simply changed the dynasty, terms like ile-ibinu or ubini or benin kingdom are exonyms igodomigodo is the true name of the benin kingdom

2 That is true

3.Also true

4. True

5. True

6.Source or citation to back this claim ?

7.Yes thats true

8. true

9.Source or citation yet again

Olu317:
Ogiso was what they were using as a title and yes, when a new dynasty sprung up, the new system takes over which easily led to the change of name and title bearing.

The ile ibinu as exonym is quite right which also need consideration for it to be well established in the influence on the monarchial system, language, Art metal working etc .

So it will be absurdity to condemn the new identity from eleventh century or thereabout and pushed backwards to old order. Afterall there are account to that effect that there were many Yoruba migrant into Bini via Oranmiyan and before him.


Lastly, kindly read up the citation once more from my former post. Thank you

Atigba:
The Binis are Yoruba descendants

AutomaticMotors:

I like this insight inside Egharevba's actions I understand now his frame of mind at that time, do you have any info about his later years and his offsprings? I want to also ask you something tho unrelated how did Ohenhen die (heard accident)? And did he have any kids? And abeg " Atiti nu go " na actual woman ?

UGBE634:
then you never waka Nazee, I have seen many Binis and many Ogie-amiens who hold on to that view, to them especially for the fact that the Ekaladerhan story started in 1978 but they will not go about arguing with you, because na fanatic full Benin

UGBE634:
Ede, I don't have a youtube channel, a youtube channel might be different from a youtube account. I have a youtube account which I use in watching videos right. But I don't have any videos on it, when I watch some of these Esan videos, I usually go to their comment to debunk these things. I seem too old for that now

AreaFada2:


Dave, you sef get time o. Somebody who believes that everybody else has low IQ, can he learn from even Einstein?

Let him be.

UGBE634:
you should have asked your grandma to interprete the word "Oba" for you.

Oba does not mean king, Oba was like a god who had and still has so much influence over the Bini people.

The Oba was everything to us, you hear names like Obarisiagbon- which means Oba is the centre of the world

Obarisiuwa-Oba is the centre of wealth

It Even reflect in greetings- Oba-avan- which means Oba's afternoon-good afternoon





Oba-Owie-Oba's morning-good morning

The understanding of the Oba was bigger than just a king to the Bini people, that's why he was being compared with almost everything, even though he was the king of Edo people, he was also like a god.

The fact is that as I am arguing, I tend to think more and see more rhema that draws me closer to the fact that the Oba is a non native

samuk:


I also used to frequently visit my great grandmother in village during school holidays in the early to mid 1980s. She was born during the reign of Oba Ovonramwen. One of the reasons I love the village was the history of Benin the elders told us after dinners and before bedtimes. None of the elders or my great grandmother was aware of Oranmiyan, Ife and Oduduwa. I only became aware of these names when I read them in books.

By the time my great grandmother died in late 1980s, she witnessed the reigns of the following Obas, Ovonramwen, Eweka 1, Akenzua and Erediawa. My great grandmother who also met her grandparents who saw the reigns of Oba in the 1700s into 1800s got her history from them to pass on to us. Myself have also witnessed the reign of three oba, Akenzua, Erediawa and Ewuare 2 already. The passing down of history from generations to generations is one way the Benin history has passed down from the past.

davidnazee:


UGBE634 don run lol..

UGBE634:
The Oba and his family are the strangers alone. I am autochthonous Bini from Ugo, Bini people cannot be strangers in their land, I have always opined that not all Binis migrated down here as opined by Ignorant Esan folks, Aside nairaland, I also have a youtube account where I contest this argument with them. Infact nobody has fought that Idea more than myself here. I challenge you to screenshot comment of anybody that has fought that Idea here

, you can check up my argument with Igboid and Atigba

So it is never about the Esan talk as I am not Esan, infact I have more than enough previous screenshot that contradicts what you opined above

UGBE634:
Even in history, I was trying to point out that the influence was still subtle, it was one of recognition by the Esan kings that Irrua is the most senior and it ends there. I just wanted to point it out so that people will not mistake your senior for subservient role

What you should have opined is that the stool was gifted not the name or title Onojie or Ojie. An Onojie or Ojie title can't stick with Esan, 'a core Edo group', Saying it stuck with them is like saying Oba stuck with the other yoruba towns that received kings from Ife, it is that absurd and weird, I don't know how else to put it. In the sense that, Even if they were to have evolved a monarchy of their own, that is if an Oba was not in Benin that gifted them such stools, those monarchs would still go with the Title Onojie or Ojie. I mean it is who they are, the core fabric of their being. They have no other word for king . That is why I describe the "Oba" as an emperor, the word Oba is not what we have properly domesticated to mean king, given the fact that he was so mighty and his title is not what we can interprete.

If the Itsekiri were to have evolved a monarchy on their own, they would never have gone with the title Ogiame, remember we are talking about the true meaning and intent here. We already have a template in Urhobo and Bini to follow and know that Ojie or Onojie is a cognate word for king, just like Ovie and Ogie. Also we have some template to follow in Benin and Urhobo such that there was already some kings with titles Ogie and Ovie before the emergence of the Oba of Benin that were independent.

UGBE634:
All those Ogiesoba and Oba'r'Ogie should already tell you the comparison, dichotomy and strife that existed between them before one gave way for the other if you have a functioning brain.

That the Ogi-egor is older than the Oba's stool is not in contention at all. That's why he is also called Osanegor, go and Ask your elders.

Even the enogieship of Urhonigbe is far older than the Oba's dynasty too. It evolved from the Oldest man in the community, infact that is what is still in place.

The Ogisos were never emperors or conquerors, their powers could at best be described as soft or spiritual over other Edo communities and their Enogies. The "Iso" in their title suggest an heavenly mandate. It can at best be described as the sort of influence, the Okaigiesan has over other Esan communities and their Enogies. We were a republican people

Even the Enogie of Egor closest to it was independent.

On the other hand, the Ogie-amien have theirs too, which is "Ogie-amien, Aimien Oba"

Meaning na king them dae see o, dem nor dae see Oba.

Oba is alien, He is not from the land, the word "Oba" is foreign, the way it is pronounced suggest so absolutely

Efewestern:
I've highlighted some keys points from UGBE634, AreaFada2 and samuk. Edeyoung, I saw your mention and I will try to answer below.







First of all, we all can agree that there was a major divergence amongst the Edoid group. Most groups left during the Ogiso Dynasty (Igodomigodo) and at that time, the current Empire wasn't formed.

Before their departure, The Ogie title was prominent and it didn't by anyway mean Chief/Duke as some would want us to believe. The Urhobos/Isokos who were the largest stock to leave had records of her relationship with Aka and even marked her territories as we can see in Abraka which means a border with Aka.

Before the establishment of the Oba dynasty by Oba Eweka I, most Edoid groups who migrated to various areas were already established, forging with their separate identity except for recent migrators like Iwere who later adopted a Bini Prince.

Wether or not Oba was used during the Ogiso era is still very debatable and inputs from those against and for the argument are valid. I've noted some valid corrections myself and I've also gained some insights.

RedboneSmith:


Nawa oh. The English that Ryder wrote is quite clear na. Why are you people reading something else there? 😳 It's rather weird.

Let me provide further quotes from that same chapter "The Benin Kingdom" written by AFC Ryder. It is chapter 6 in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History edited by Professor Obaro Ikime, for anyone who wants to check it out for themselves.

On page 110, Ryder wrote: "At the end of the 15th century, the first Portuguese visitors to Benin were told that the Ọba received investiture and regalia from a distant potentiate whom the Edo knew as Ogane; this 'suzerain' may have been the Oni of Ife. Before 1897 parts of the body of a dead Ọba were sent to Ife for burial. But although there are good grounds for accepting some ritual and dynastic relationship between Benin and Ife, exactly how it was established is hard to determine. "

Further down on page 112, after mentioning that Benin chiefs told Captain Roupell in 1898 that Benin people sent to Ife in the Yoruba country for a king and Eweka was sent to them, Ryder wrote this in conclusion: " The most that one can safely conclude from this evidence is that Eweka was probably the first Ọba to rule in Benin, and that he was probably of Yoruba origin, though not necessarily first-hand from Ife."

There are "maybes" and "probablys" in Ryder's submission, because, of course, when you're working with oral tradition (and even written evidence in some cases) there is nothing like 100% certainty. But it is clear from the chapter that you derived your initial misquote from that Ryder was actually leaning towards a Yoruba (if not specifically Ìfẹ́) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Let me reiterate that I do not necessarily agree or disagree with what Ryder had to say. I don't care one way or another. My entire point is simply: Don't misquote a scholar in order to make a point.

Also, I see a screenshot flying around from a paper Ryder wrote where he pointed to the Niger-Benue area. The screenshot comes from a paper Ryder wrote in 1965 called "A Reconsideration of Ife-Benin Relationship". The predominant view in Nigerian historiography until 1965 was that the Eweka Dynasty was of Yoruba (Ife) origin. In 1965, Ryder came up with an interesting new theory which he published in that paper. It was really interesting and sparked off a conversation in scholarly circles. JK Thornton building on that even wrote his own paper, where he argued that the Ogane was the Ata of Igala. In any case, both Ryder's and Thornton's theories never really caught on in academic circles. It even appears that Ryder himself came to question his theories later in his career, because in this chapter (that I have quoted and you have misquoted) that he wrote for the book Groundwork of Nigerian History in 1980, he did not mention his 1965 hypothesis at all, but seems to have reverted to the traditional orthodoxy of a Yoruba (even if not specifically Ife) origin for the Eweka Dynasty.

Peace. Happy Sunday ✌️

Efewestern:


Exactly my point. Why is Oba only found in groups that share affinity with Yoruba? Why can't we find a trace in other pure Edoid groups ?

The supremacy of the Oba's isn't a enough to invalidate some observations. From what we can deduce: Ogie was once used by the Bini empire pre-migration.

Bini is the root. Before Ogie get accepted by all, then we can conclude that it was the right acceptable word for king before a major change in government.

Ogie isn't less than Oba. Both mean the same thing. Only that one is purely Edoid and the other...

@bolded, another valid observations. Most Edoid groups are republican. There's much to know about our past.

davidnazee:


Lol.. Please stop confusing yourself further. This your interpretation will only give you f9.
when a researcher uses the phrase "it seems" it means he didn't find any evidence to make a factual conclusion.

And this second statement; "What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."" simply mean that afterall studies he finds no similarities between Edo people and their monarchy against the Yorbuas and their monarchies. No single similarity, nothing for him to suggest indeed there was a relationship.

Go back to English class bro.

UGBE634:
Idu is an Udo thing not a Benin thing, Benin as a city is too recent for the pa Idu story. The earliest of Binis lived in Udo. You cannot be attributing Udo glory to Benin. Check around you, it is common knowledge, everyone greeting La-Idu are from Udo.

It is also common knowledge that the first Ogisos lived in Udo going by Etsako and Urhobo narratives as against some Binis who would want to attribute Udo's glory to Benin. Udo is our oldest town by a mile, it is uncontested. The Eriwmin-Idu shrine in Udo is mightier than the one in Benin. That shows its root.

UGBE634:
That the word "Oba" is not Edo is not what we should contest



These are the only set of persons that go with the Oba title in Edo state

They have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Omo'n'Oba'n'Edo-

It literally translates to mean-

The one that is king over Edo

The etymology of the word Oba is in yoruba and not Edo, they usually tell you that the ba means light but the way it is pronounced suggest otherwise, the pronunciation of the ba is usually relaxed, it's not pronounced in a way to suggest light. There is no strong stress on the "ba"

Also the dating of Usen and Utesse royal line seem to tally with the Oba's dating

The Ososomaye juju that is obviously not Edo has been in the Oba's palace for centuries,

Sango, Orunmila and others, and their presence in Benin city seem to be tied to the Oba's emergence as king in Benin city, it is not coincidence. When you tie these points together, you might have gotten your answer

Also the republican system seems to be the norm for all Edo save for Benin who has an emperor moreso with an "Oba" title.

RedboneSmith:


Good morning, Gregyboy. How are you today? I will be lying if I say I haven't missed your incoherence. 🙂

Efewestern:


In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.

Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

bundarina:


Then why are you crying. It's always you dumb shits discussing your copiums, along with Nyamiri, in this cursed colonial entity called Nigeria.

bundarina:
Not only is it false, only stupid people think an ethnic of people descend from a man, not only is it unscientifical, it belongs to mythology, and the same mythology isn't even believed by most myth keepers. Also, the Yoruba are an ancient group and with large number, they have birthed many ethnicites, including the Edo, not the other way around. The Yorubas were also kind enough to teach their culture and influence, like teaching of the bini bronzes and other arts and crafts.

AreaFada2:


Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osague (a title also adopted by some Yoruba monarchies as Sagwe or Sawe as a chief). It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwerre youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwerre people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it is fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a kingship title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and it's quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

RedboneSmith:


Wow. Sir, what mischief is this? Why are you re-writing the words of the late A. F. C. Ryder? This intellectual dishonesty is not necessary na.

You took the words that the late historian wrote in his chapter "Benin Kingdom" in the book Groundwork of Nigerian History and you mangled it to say the opposite of what the historian wrote.

Ryder did not write that Benin sending for an alien (Yoruba) ruler was inherently implausible. These are Ryder's exact words: "...we seem to tread on firmer ground when we come to the traditions which recount in some detail how a number of Benin chiefs, rather than accept one of their own number as an hereditary ruler, sought a sovereign from the Yoruba dynasty ruling in Ife. There is nothing inherently implausible in this story". (page 110)

Yes, Ryder did say that next to nothing was know about the Yoruba at that early date, but a full quote illustrates that he was not heading to the conclusion that your mangled quote portrays. Ryder's words in full on page 112 of the same book:" What innovations the dynasty may have brought from its place of origin we cannot determine because next to nothing is known about the Yoruba peoples themselves at this early date. The essential innovation was presumably the monarchy itself: all the features that made the Benin kingship distinctive, and very different from the corresponding institutions in Yorubaland, seem to have emerged in later years when the dynasty must have become absorbed in Edo environment."

There is no doubt that Professor Ryder was a proponent of the "Out of Yorubaland" theory as regards the current Benin dynasty. There is nothing wrong with you holding a different opinion from this. But to wilfully distort a scholar's words is a hell of a desperate move. Not cool, bro.

Efewestern:
Supremacism is the reason we won't get anything right as regards to our historical connections and heritage.

Some things shouldn't even be debated when the facts are there. You can't claim to apply common sense and logic and still believe somethings.

The Oba title debate is funny to me because Edo is the core root of most South Southerners and it won't be difficult to validate some claims. If you say the Oba title was used for over 1000years, then other edoid groups would have retained it in their various dialects.

As we speak, the only title that spreads across all related group is Ogie. Now here are my questions.

* When was Oba first used ?

* Why isn't it found in any Edoid languages?

* Most Edoid groups were very independent from Bini influences and would have adopted the title for their leaders if it was the title used pre-migration.

* Why was Ogie the general accepted word for king? Even Unrelated bini-influenced groups like Iwere used Ogi(e)ame. Why not Oba-Ame?

I believe there is a missing link somewhere. The dots aren't connecting.