₦airaland Forum

^-- This thread in which I ask questions about traffic from Lagos to Ibadan:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-656339.0.html

Please read and provide any answers you can to the questions asked.

Not even that deep, just trying to get a basic idea of how one might approach solving traffic problems in that part of naija. Likely output is a letter to a newspaper, or something.

Just FYI, you don't need to be exact here. Just guesses are fine. I'm just trying to get some ballpark #s to work with, build some models, etc.

@Physics: Naw, I have a friend who does civil engineering and I want to be able to give them enough information to be able to intelligently help me figure out some things.

I have a few questions for people who might know both Lagos and Ibadan well. I'm trying to understand how much traffic moves between the two cities on a daily basis, what type of traffic it is, how much people pay to make their journey, and how long it takes them.

So Here are my questions:

1A) How much passenger traffic do you think that road sees per day? How many people going in each direction? 1 million each way? 2 million? 2 million in, one million out?
1B) How much commercial traffic? Trucks filled with goods, oil tankers, etc. 100,000? 500,0000?
2) Regarding question (1A), how do most people get from Ibadan to Lagos? Molue, individual car, danfo, possibly even motorcycle? Maybe 40% by individual car, 30% by danfo, 10% by Molue, etc?
3) Regarding question (1A), how much does it cost to go from Ibadan to Ikoyi (or vice versa)? Just an approximate answer will do. Please also mention which form of transport you are using when mentioning that price.
4) Finally, how much time does it take your typical commuter to get from Ibadan to Lagos (or vice versa)? Discuss also how the commute time changes with early in the morning traffic versus midday, versus night, and weekday vs. weekend. Google Maps tells me 2 hours and 9 minutes from Ikoyi to Ibadan. How accurate is this, and how much does it change with the time of day?

Thanks in advance.


(Please moderators, do not move this from the politics section just yet, this section of the site gets a lot of views and I'd like to get as much info as possible)

Wrong place, I'll get a separate thread

Hrm

What can you do

Sucks, but I dunno how to solve the problem

lol @ this woman trying to make it out as if Ngige rigged

She and Obi should be rotting in jail cells.

^-- Haha, sorry if I offended. . . do whatever makes you happy  Tis a free world. I just thought the other ones looked great.

Eko Ile:
Basic principles Vs Basic rights

Pick one



See, this is not about principles or sentiments, it's about fairness and justice.

ACN's motto is Democracy for Justice, not democracy for discrimination.

I don't even care about PDP picking good candidates, our sense of fairness and justice comes first and we shouldn't betray these core values and constitutional rights for anything.

Look, the ACN has the right to select her as its candidate, over the 100s of other better qualified options. But if it does so, then this is a "mark" against her candidacy, and I'd be inclined to punish the ACN for this decision by supporting the PDP.

I don't want to do this. . . if PDP gets into Lagos, it will be impossible to remove. So why doesn't the ACN save us all the wahala by not choosing her? That way I can still continue supporting my party.

The dimple one was so much better, more refreshing and easy on the eyes. this one makes me wanna throw up

you should change back

Only thing she has accomplished is that she married and is being fvcked by Tinubu

Man I dunno how we are justifying this in any way.

All these tinpot African countries where Joseph Kabila succeeds Laurent Kabila as president. . . I'd be pretty sad if Lagos became the same thing

^-- please change that terrible picture. it is disgusting What happened to the other ones

@Eko Ile: It is a basic matter of principle. If there are two equally qualified people, you pick the person who isn't the relative of the previous guy. And nobody can even tell me that she is the most qualified person in Lagos.

Anyways, if ACN picks her, then she'll go down in flames like the Saraki daughter (especially if the PDP picks someone good.)

Katsumoto:
I was only giving examples but people have paid too little taxes for so long. They have being complaining about poor infrastructure for so long, if they want better services, then they have to pay. You are the one championing advancement through PPI's; do you think the companies that come down are going to do it for free? The state governments will have to put down some kind of down payments.

Right. But you don't need 45% of a rich man's cash to fund it. Even the US didn't start with such a heavily progressive income tax. It started out small then grew gradually. I'm not a fan of high income taxes to begin with, and I doubt that they are a good idea for poor countries.

If you want growth and development, then you need a progressive tax system now and it must not be complicated. You can move to Kwara but you will not be close to where the businesses, the jobs and the markets are.

Progressive tax system is fine, but 45% income tax for that level of salary is not. Especially since the end result will that person seeing 5 or 10% of that amount in real services returned. I'd be willing to pay 25% of my earnings, but not 45%.

Kwara is just an example. . . there are other places in Nigeria (and indeed, the world) that won't charge taxes at a higher rate than Texas, but with only a tiny fraction of the value.

Those taxes are too high. I'd move to Kwara or Kogi with that sort of tax system 

Are highly progressive tax systems even good for 3rd world countries? 

What is the basis for the state taking 45% of my cash when it doesn't provide that level of services? At least in Europe and the US, you get good value for your tax money.

That tax setup is fine for 100 years from now, but not for today.

@Eko Ile: Then Tinubu's son (if he has one) will be governor one day, etc, etc.

Political family dynasties are bad for democracy. . . they are a throwback to the days of hereditary monarchy.

No one can tell me that that family has a monopoly on talent in Lagos.

Say no to Tinubu imposing his wife as governor of Lagos.

The Senate seat she has is bad enough.

Or is the Tinubu family the only one who are qualified to govern Lagos in all of the state?

Copying off of the bad practices of the Clintons is not a good thing. (And regarding Hillary, I don't think Hillary should have gotten that NY Senate seat. Was she truly the best and brightest?  A carpetbagger who moved into town only to get the seat?)

Katsumoto:
There are income taxes but they are very low; not up to 30%, even for millionaires.

OK.

The entertainment tax is necessary because throwing lavish parties/weddings increases exposure to crime which must be policed. The mindset of the people must change; they must be forced to pay for things that will impact their lives positively and less on onstentatious assets.

Does it make sense that expenditure on parties is larger than government budget on education and health. People either pay up or shut up. I don't have a problem with people throwing parties but they must be taxed through some kind of sales tax.

You want to rent canopies, pay for caterers, etc, then you must be ready to pay at least 20% tax.

Err, whatever happened to free will? Sure, charge more for the policing parties require, but people should be able to do whatever they want with their personal money   Taxing parties sounds fascist, or something

Setting up databases in all the states is going to be very easy. You just have to target services that everyone in a state requires.  I agree on the accountability point; when people pay more in taxes, they demand more from their representatives. They will be less tolerant towards wasteful spending.

We have state drivers licenses, yes? Why don't we have state ID cards too? That would help quite a bit for later organizing taxes.

Which states currently tax in the SW (other than Lagos?)

Are there income taxes?
Property tax?
Additional sales tax on top of VAT?

What currently exists? And what do the federal laws permit?

I don't agree with entertainment taxes though, that sounds too social-engineeringish/puritanical to me

A few comments:

1) The Europe/Japan/China-style high-speed rail (200+ miles/hour) doesn't seem to be economically viable. It seems to be way more expensive per mile than say ordinary rail, and it doesn't look as if you can use the same tracks for freight. Almost all of these high-speed rails seem to eat up lots of subsidies. See this World Bank report for more information: http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2010/07/26/000334955_20100726032714/Rendered/PDF/558560WP0Box341SR1v08121jul101final.pdf

2) However, I think the model that is being used in the Northeastern US might work. The tracks you use, you can also use for freight. As @naijababe said, perhaps you run freight at night at 60 or 80 miles/hour (or whatever speed uses the least amount of fuel/electricity), and then run your passenger rail during the day at 150 miles/hour. See here about the Northeastern Corridor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Corridor

3) I'm thinking that to start, you'd want to do Lagos->Abeokuta->Ibadan. Abeokuta to Ibadan is 45 miles or so. . . so a 20 minute train ride if going @ 150 miles/hour. Abeokuta to Lagos is another 47 miles or so, so another 20 minutes.

4) There are obviously a lot of interesting additional routes beyond this (Ibadan->Oyo->Ogbomosho->Ilorin), (Ibadan->Ife->Ado Ekiti->Lokoja->Abuja), but I guess that is further away in the future.

Anyway, a good friend of mine is into civil engineering, so I'll hopefully get some more precise #s and information.

^-- Alright. Hopefully someone will tell us specifically what the guarantee looks like. I think I read it in a power point of some sort, but cannot find it just now.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that this weekend I'll have time to get a better sense of the feasibility of rail in the SW. There is a ton of stuff online as well as this interesting looking book (http://www.amazon.com/New-Departures-Rethinking-Passenger-Twenty-First/dp/0813122112/).

If it looks like it is feasible, this is something we need to do more than chat about on Nairaland. . . we need to present it to the SW leadership and get it done. Oyo, Ogun and Lagos are all controlled by the same party. No reason we cannot bring this to life, if practical.

[quote author=BABE! link=topic=652390.msg8219069#msg8219069 date=1303964023]hehehehe! Wow!

There's one thing I love about this thread though; The way Fstranger refused to show up and left everyone ranting!

That's what I call SWAG!!!--lol---hehe[/quote]+1

@Kilode: The Lagos light rail projects, they don't have a federal guarantee, do they?

Lekki toll road has some sort of guarantee from the Lagos State gov't tho (if I remember correctly.)

Imagine living in Abeokuta and commuting to work in Lagos or Ibadan (or whatever town ends up being on the Lagos-Ibadan path.) Think about how quickly Abeokuta would develop.

Arrive at the train station in Abeokuta to catch the 7:30am train, get to your office in Lagos by 8:30am.

It would be wonderful.

Can you imagine making the Ibadan-Lagos journey in about an hour? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

Think about how having the same would be in the SW. It would be like an industrial revolution, lol.

I need to read more about this train stuff. It is very sexy.

@Kilode: So according to these folks, you can use the same networks for cargo and commuter. I didn't know that at all; for some reason I thought they were separate networks.

Anyway, I'm starting to think that this railway must be #1 on the regional todo list. The SW leadership needs to start working hard towards this goal.

^-- Sorry if I was being harsh btw, I wasn't trying to insult or anything.

Just trying to explain why this is beneficial to everyone, in the SW and Nigeria in general. Some benefit more than others, but everyone is a winner.

@ola olabiy: Let me put it this way. Suppose a rich man builds a billion dollar mall or something right next to my town.

Now, will the poorest people in my town be able to shop there? No, they won't.

But who gives a damn? Think of all the job creation, increased traffic, etc that my town will benefit from being right next to something wonderful. The guy just spent $1 billion building the mall; presumably a lot of that is going to my townsmen who are working in construction.

My town also benefits from the roads the guy improved leading to his mall.

That is why I keep saying, wondering about whether Ekiti State indigenes can afford to ride this railroad isn't really the thing to do. The poor folk of the SW will benefit tremendously from this railway, even if they can never afford to ride it themselves.

I understand your concern, you are interested more in projects that immediately and directly benefit the poor like potable water, etc. But this is just as impactful, just in less obvious ways. And best of all, it won't cost the masses any money out of pocket to build. Just some land contributed by the state governments, and some small startup cash they loan to whoever is investing.

ola olabiy:
Eku, these maps are only fanciful. It is not that straightforward.

My point is that rather than having to bulldoze someone's office building, apartment complex to build your railway, all you have to do is to clear some bush. So a mile in Yorubaland will cost much less than a mile in the UK.

ola olabiy:
Again, leave Lagos out of this, it has a rich/middle class populace. Osun doesn't!

Who will pay for such in Ila Orangun? We are just here creating an idea of Eldorado on Nairaland.

Dude, who cares? All we need is X number of people willing to pay. It may turn out that very few of them are from Osun or Ekiti. Maybe all those X people are only in Lagos or Ibadan. But as long as we have that #, the railroad is profitable.

That is ALL that matters.

(in practice of course, there will be huge benefits to everyone on the route, and all the states involved.)

London, it probably costs a sh1tload of money to lay down a mile of track. Office buildings, residences, power lines, terrain, all sorts of nasty things you must avoid.

On the other hand, Yorubaland looks like this: http://i56.tinypic.com/acq2v9.png

So laying down each mile of track WILL be much cheaper than laying down a mile anywhere in the UK.

The UK is not the right country to compare. The US is. There are vaste swathes of undeveloped land in the US. Same in Yorubaland. In the UK, there isn't. So don't compare to UK.