₦airaland Forum

elampiro:
... In the last season and a half, Wayne Rooney has made the deep-lying forward position his own. Sir Alex Ferguson has made the 4-4-1-1 his dominate formation. Wayne Rooney plays as the deep-lying forward, with Javier Hernandez or Danny Welbeck working in front of him. This allows Rooney to drop deep into midfield, and spread the ball out to the striker and wingers in front of him, while also remaining an extremely dangerous scoring threat himself. He’s able to be both a creator, and scorer. Rooney plays a ‘Number 10′ extremely well. He is good with the ball at his feet, and he’s able to play quality short passes. In addition, he has a great tactical sense to pick out the right pass to create openings for others. The only problem is, his goal scoring abilities go to waste as a straight ‘Number 10′. In addition, he’s equally skilled as a ‘Number 9′. He’s got a lethal shot, and the strength and agility to work against defenders in the box. But, again, the problem is that his creative abilities go to waste as a straight ‘Number 9′.
http://redrants.com/the-tactics-board-nine-and-a-half/#sthash.3ImCGDNX.dpbs
..............................

The above tactics article was written on July 13th 2012 after the 2011/12 season ended. Everything was still fresh in the memory of the writer. He said everything I have already clarified here. Rooney passed to the wingers to cross in. That's why their creative stats were boosted.

I have also shown here before that Rooney scored most goals from outside the box in the EPL. He also scored far more goals from outside the box that season than RVP- whom played ghe number 9 for his team.

I have shown Rooney had many passes, long and short from the deep. Sometimes more than a CM and defenders.

What more can I say? This should bury the argument for ever.

Throwback (Thursday) lol

Now we have seen Andy Cole said SAF changed his formation from 442 to 451 in 2001.
We saw Rooney in 2008 said he had always played behinf the striker.
We saw SAF in 2011 summer he had always deployed Rooney as number 10- behind the striker in the hole.

The above points to one thing, Rooney has always been an out and out striker in one season- 2009/2010. Yori Yori.

When I am chanced I will bring more from Zonal Marking charts, commentary, etc.

coogar:
you don't seem to know elampawa......
he has to somehow justify rooney's poor performance as a striker so he brings up ridiculous excuses as the reasons rooney isn't prolific. however, people who watch united know rooney's problem has little to do with the position he takes, he's just a very poor footballer.

do you know how many goals herrera has scored for us this year in spite of his limited appearances? when rooney played in herrera's position, he was firing blanks. do you know how many goals mata has scored from his wide position for us? when rooney found himself in same position, he produced next to nothing.
.

Where did Rooney scored from against Liverpool in our 3-0 win. Rooney scored 12 league gials, are you saying all were from the number 9 and 10?

tess1:
You are the one imagining. There are facts to support what i've said. You don't expect me to believe what pundits said over the facts that are on ground.

What SAF said doesn't mean that he played Rooney behind the striker all the time. He would have said that about Jones if any issue came up about defensive midfield or right back.

Rooney wanted to leave Man Utd because he was being used as a number 10 in SAF's last season. He said he wanted to play in the center forward position.

Those are the facts from whoscored. I deliberately omitted that of 2009/2010 because you already accepted that he was our top striker then. In 2010/11 4411 formation was used four times, 2011/12 two times, 2012/2013 three times.

You will also see that in SAF's last season, he changed the formation totally and adopted 4231 where Rooney played as a number 10 mostly in that season and that was the reason he said he wanted to leave.

This is my last response on this issue.

Now I know where your problem is coming from- whoscored.

We had this argument before in January 2013 and I showed you from Zonal marking post match analysis that Rooney and Chacharito were splited apart. Rooney was behind Chicharito. Chicharito had about 14 matches cummlatively susing 90 mins to divide total time played.
I also showed you about Welbeck.

Now we had SAF and Rooney confirming Rooney played BEHIND THE STRIKER.

coogar:
so when did rooney play in the central midfield in 2012/13? we had anderson, cleverley, kagawa, giggs, carrick, fletcher, jones, scholes, etc in the central midfield.

your inconsistency in your argument is shocking

Yes. He played against Stoke, West Ham, Villa and others in the wing while Kagawa took more advanced role.

parrotibaba:
which buildup? u told both me n coogar dat Rooney was a winger for united for many matches dat it was only in 2009/2010 dat he was used as a striker ...no be dis year we argue dis thing?

This is true. Rooney was a winger for United in many matches. In fluid three of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. In run of games in 2011. Even in 2012/13 like he played in Madrid, in a certain game in 2012/2013 he played in the wing and won MOTM with two only goals. This season he played in right wing in the return leg against Cambridge. His first season he was marjorly in the wing.

In UCL fixture in Rome he was in the wing and CRZ in the top 9.

This is like saying Valencia is a winger but he has had many games in right back. Or Fabregas is a C.midieder but he has had many games as a striker and number 10.




However, that post I mentiond Andy Cole and Nistelrooy you responded to was not for you.

parrotibaba:
I added another screenshot ,and please u never said dis when we were arguing dat time ,I remember telling u dat Rooney was used mainly as an ss n was rarely played on d wings

That is a reposne to another person na. U don't follow this argumet with details.

The other article you brought up . I said 'Rooney had a run of games in the wing in 2011'. How is this tantamount to having most games in the wing?

parrotibaba:
@elampiro were u not d guy dat said dis...

I guess you missed the build up.

I said he played mostly as a winger in his first season. Also when SAF deployed the 4-3-3 with Ronaldo and Roonay flanking Tevez in a fluid front used in difficult away games.

This was the reason for Nistelrooy. To switch the sytem from 2 strikers to 1.

tess1:
Did SAF write the article? Rooney have always played alongside another striker in 4 4 2 formation. Man Utd hardly play 4 4 1 1 formation. The facts are there on whoscored site. They keep records of how each team plays seasons in seasons out.

I can't rely on articles written by some journo when there are site that gathers these facts every season.

I have told you what SAF and Rooney said verbatim, but you chose to believe your imagination. I have actually been avoiding bringing articles written by pundits, I stuck with what the coach and players said. Even you agreed at least to a supposrt striker which is still number 10 in association football.

Now I even have seen an article written by ANDY COLE. He says Ferguson switched his system from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1 in 2001. He said the idea was to make United have more possession and create more chances for the lone striker.

parrotibaba:
Pawa I thought u said b4 dat Rooney was played in d wing almost his united career ,now na attacking midfield

When did I say this? I said he played in the number 10 behind a striker. His first season he was used in the wing moslty.

After his first season he played off Nistelrooy, Saha, Tevez, Chicha, Welbeck in the hole, predominantly, but occasionally in the wing, striking top 9 and central midfield.



My name is not pawa. Note that.

AirborneLacer:
Unless you're talking about a 4-4-1-1 formation, which of course, is a simple variation of the 4-4-2.

A 4-4-2 flat has got nothing like a hole in it.

A hole can only be created when one of the strikers drops deep to create a link between the midfield and attack, in that case, you wouldn't say it's a 4-4-2 anymore.

Exactly. Rooney behind a striker or another striker is not 4-4-2 flat. It's 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1.

tess1:
Are you sure about this? So, you are telling me that SAF played mainly 4 4 1 1 system throughout his era.

Yes, I even saw the article that said SAF adapted his 4-4-2 formation in the 1990s to 4-4-1-1 and 4-3-3 on Jose Mourinho's arrival to the EPL..


I beg make I sleep. I don tire finish. This argument get demon attached.

This is very clear. Once a player is behind a striker, he is in the hole in 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1.

Once he dropped behind. .... And SAF said he deployed Rooney behind the striker. Rooney said he always played behind the striker.










Good night. More at dawn.

tess1:
Once a striker drops behind, it is no longer 4 4 2 flat, it has become 4 4 1 1.

I am not disputing the fact that SAF played that system sometimes. He only played such system once in a while.

Maybe you should tell me the number of times SAF played such system in a season.

My own contention is that SAF played mainly 4 4 2 flat where there is no room for a number 10.

No SAF played 4-4-1-1. Once a striker dropped behind. SAF said Rooney played behind a striker. So what are you still arguing?

Rooney never played on same line with others.

AirborneLacer:
Comedy Central.

RM CM CM LM

FW FW

Which space exactly?

4-4-1-1

Rooney never on same line with Nistelrooy, Saha, Tevez, Chicha.

I WILL BRING MANY ARTICLES AT DAWN. i AM BUSY TONIGHT. I WILL SOON GO TO BED.

tess1:
Did you read him mentioned Center there?

The issue was being played in the midfield rather than central forward. You yourself said he has been playing as an attacking midfielder which is a midfield position. Is that not different from center forward role?

It's very clear it's centre midfield. BRING THE DATE OF THAT INTERVIEW LETS SEE WHERE ROONEY WAS PLAYING.

sinizia:
LOL. This is why i never bothered replying him when he cooked up that dumb formation for me. That dude's weed is on a higher level. Imagine comparing Drogba that has always been a lone striker with Rooney that plays SS in SAF's 4-4-2 formation. Just ignore him abeg, this issue is getting stale.

1. That formation teaches you a lot. You know not positioning.

2. So you guys have accepted Rooney did not play upfront as other strikers like Drogba?

3. If Iam not responding, you guys should not take it as I have given up. It means I am busy and I will reply later. I am postponing most of my comments and replies to tomorrow.

tess1:
You are the only one being illogical. How can you say there is a number 10 position in 442 flat formation? Do you even know formations at all? I don't even need SAF to tell me that there is no "hole" in 442.

These other formations you listed, how often did SAF use them? 442 flat formation was the most used formation by SAF during his era.

I am telling you once there is a player behind the striker. The formation is not 4-4-2.

SAF played Rooney in hole in 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1.



Even Association football has it that there can be a hole in 4-4-2 if the second striker is involved in build up play and defensive duty.

tess1:
I have said it that you don't know football formations or you don't understand it. The one they are talking about here is not flat 4 4 2 but a variation of it which is 4 4 1 1.

Whenever one player is behind the striker or even main striker, that player is in the hole. You dont know formation.

tess1:
Let's not also forget that was the reason he wanted to leave Man Utd at the end of 2012/13 season.

Berbatov was bought as a striker in 2008. After Ronaldo and Tevez left in 2009, he was being paired with Rooney upfront and we had no problem with Rooney's position in the team other than that he said Man Utd weren't ambitious enough for him. So he said that he wanted to leave Utd.

SAF bought RVP in 2012. Rooney was immediately relegated to the midfield to play as our number 10 because SAF had adopted 4 2 3 1 system in the league. This placed RVP as our lone striker in the system. In that season, Rooney rarely played in the striking positions. This sparked off a rift between him and SAF where he said he won't play in the midfield.

Question now is that if he has been playing in the midfield as a number 10 all through his career as a Man Utd player, why then is it that time that he decided to reject such position?



http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/09/wayne-rooney-reasons-leave-manchester-united

That's from a player whom elampiro said has played as a number 10/midfielder all through his Man Utd career.

Here they were talking about Rooney playing in central midfield, not in the hole.

tess1:
Drogba didn't measure up because he is an out and out striker and Chelsea rarely adopt a 442 flat system. He doesn't share the burden of scoring with any other striker in the system they play.

Now we are getting somewhere. Ayagayagayagyo hey Ayagayagayagayo.

You guys had earlier said support striker. Pls read below. The coaches are not novice. When a player is playing behind a striker, his goal scoring duty is reduced for other functions.



..............................
Association football.

Second striker
The second striker (withdrawn striker or support striker) (historically called inside-left and inside-right, or inside forward) has a long history in the game, but the terminology to describe them has varied over the years. Originally such players were termed inside forwards. More recently, the preferred terms have been withdrawn striker, second striker, deep-lying forward, or support striker, and are often referred to as playing "in the hole" (i.e. the space between the midfield and the defence of the opposing team). Second strikers tend not to be as tall or as physically imposing as a centre forward.[52] They are required to be more "nippy", quick, mobile, and skillful, helping to create goals and scoring opportunities for centre forwards, utilising spaces created in the opposition's defence to provide passes to the strikers, picking up loose balls around the area, or attempting to dribble with the ball and score themselves.[52]

The position was initially developed by the famous Hungary national team of the late 1940s and mid-1950s led by Ferenc Puskás. Later, it was popularised in Italian football as the trequartista ("three-quarters" or fantasista, the advanced playmaker who plays neither in midfield nor as a forward, but effectively pulls the strings for his team's attack, and serves as an assist provider.[53] Many players in this position can play in a free role, as an attacking midfielder or sometimes on the wing. The position has also been known as the number 10 role, as many players who played in this position wore the number 10 jersey.

tess1:
It is the formation that will determine whether someone is in the hole or not. There is nothing like "Hole" in 442 flat formation.

That was because he was being moved about in the forward position when Tevez and Ronaldo were still around.

This is the most illogical post I have read this year.

1. There is no behind the striker in a 4-4-2. They play side by side. United played 4-4-1-1 and 4-5-1. Then 4-3-3 in difficult away games.

2. SAF said the way Ashley Young was deployed at Villa. Young played in the hole at Villa in a 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1.

3. The space behind the striker is the hole.

tess1:
This is a Farce. It doesn't say anything.

If Thiery Henry had had the same playing time as Rooney, he would've scored more assists than Rooney. What kind of logic is this?

Why did Drogba not even measure up?

Tess1, I will log out in a short while. There are many things that have been said these few days I will find time to address about tomorrow afternoon, hopefully.

I just they read but e dey pain me say I no dey get time respond. This thread dey distract sha. The only way to kill this demon is not to read.

Goodnight.

tess1:
When Rooney is pushed to the striking position in this formation, it is either he leads or he supports. Mostly throughout his career in this system he acts as a support striker. The two strikers shares the responsibility of scoring when the opportunity comes depending on their positioning.

There is no much difference between a support striker and a number 10. Association Football made this clear. Some look at the distance they play from each other. Rooney is usually very far from the man ufront. Then SAF said BEHIND THE STRIKER. Saf surely knows the difference. Rooney also said BEHIND THE STRIKER. Note: They didnt say co-strikers.

Behind the striker is the hole.

tess1:
In what formation? Put what GN said in proper perspective. Is it in 442?

I will go look for it tomorrow. But SAF above said BEHIND THE STRIKER. That is the hole.

Secondly, why did Rooney begged to be played as a striker just before 2009/10 season kicked off?

elampiro:
I said it that Rooney beats Lampard hands down in Assists they were laughing at themselves. Sinizia and Coogar, see below what I believe to be 'OPTA standard' Assists figures. Lampard played 48,729 minutes. Rooney played 31,776 minutes. Lampard played 16,953 minutes more than Rooney. That is 188 full ninety minutes of football matches.



Premier League All time most assists
Assists Assist name
131
Ryan Giggs
99
Steven Gerrard
96
Frank Lampard
94
Wayne Rooney
89
Francesc Fabregas
80
Thierry Henry
62
James Milner
60
Robin van Persie
59
Gareth Barry
58
Ashley Young
57
Stewart Downing
56
Didier Drogba
53
Peter Crouch
53
Danny Murphy
51
Nolberto Solano
50
Damien Duff
50
Aaron Lennon
49
Nani
49
Dennis Bergkamp
48
Morten Gamst Pedersen
48
David Silva
48
Mikel Arteta
48
Leighton Baines
47
Nicolas Anelka
47
Dimitar Berbatov
46
Cristiano Ronaldo
45
Paul Scholes
45
Luis Antonio Valencia
44
David Beckham
43
Kevin Davies
43
Charles N'Zogbia
43
Robbie Keane
42
Jermaine Pennant
42
Chris Brunt
42
Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink
41
Michael Carrick
40
Steed Malbranque
39
Shaun Wright-Phillips
38
Andrew Cole
38
Paolo Di Canio
38
Theo Walcott
38
Carlos Tevez
38
Gabriel Agbonlahor
38
Robert Pires
37
Emile Heskey
37
Emmanuel Adebayor
37
Matthew Etherington
36
Luis Boa Morte
36
Steven Pienaar
36
Bobby Zamora

This stat here tells me Rooney was a number 10 in major part of his career. I know he also played as a winger, striker and central midfield. He played most part of his first season as a winger.

coogar:
so any player who plays behind the striker is automatically an AM or automatically plays in the hole? are you even aware there's a difference between AM & SS(supporting striker or second striker?)

rooney played ahead of tevez in 07/08 whenever we played 4-4-2.....yet, you are telling us here that rooney has always played behind a striker. which is which? .

If you play behind a striker you are in the 'hole'. An AM.

In 4-4-2 the two strikers are on same line or virtually on same line always.

tess1:
Rooney has always been played majorly as a striker in the 442 formation used mostly during Fergie's era. It is only when we are playing a big team in the league and most especially in Europe that he changes his formation when he wants to make it difficult for opponents to beat us.

It was after he bought RVP in 2013/14 that he dropped Rooney to play in the midfield so as to be able to accommodate him in the team with RVP.

This is not true, as of August 2009 before the league kicked off, Gary Neville said Rooney's best position is behind a striker.

elampiro:
3/07/2011 23:00, Report by Nick Coppack in Boston
Young shines on debut

Sir Alex Ferguson says he was “very satisfied” with Ashley Young's first Manchester United appearance and believes the former Aston Villa forward will create plenty of goals for his new club.

The England international, wearing the no.18 shirt, played 67 minutes as a right winger against New England Revolution in the Reds' 4-1 victory on Wednesday night.

He saw plenty of the ball in the first period and teed up presentable chances for both Wayne Rooney and Dimitar Berbatov.

It was enough to cement Sir Alex's belief that Young is one of the finest talents in the English game, and the United boss believes the Reds will benefit greatly from his delivery from wide areas during the forthcoming campaign.

“[Right wing] was his position with Aston Villa until last season when they started playing him in behind the strikers – Gabriel Agbonlahor or Darren Bent – in a more advanced role, like the way we use Wayne Rooney.

“His capabilities are such that he can play wide left, he can play in behind the strikers and he can play wide right. He showed tonight he's a fantastic crosser of the ball. I think he hit three fantastic crosses in the game, which maybe isn't something we're used to with the way we play. But if we do get used to it then there's goals there. I was very satisfied.”
http://www.manutd.com/en/Tour-2011/Tour-2011-News/2011/Jul/Young-impresses-on-debut.aspx

What do you guys understand from the above?

I will produce more like this tomorrow. I have seen many already, but I dey busy.

coogar:
sometimes i wonder if you read & understand!

Where did SAF say that? That's from you.

SAF said he had alway depoyed Rooney behind the striker. He said this when United signed Ashley Young.

Rooney himself Said he has always played behind the striker. He even challenged SAF to play him as a striker in 2009/10 season.