₦airaland Forum

chamotex:
I've got a suggestion

How about we use some of our bars on the STATE OF MIND thread . . . that will be funny

What is it about? lol.

I don't think he is overlooked. If anything he is regarded as one of the all time greats. He made the top 20 of so of the greatest ever rapper or something along those lines. That is an honour in my opinion.

biina:
The bangladesh case, like the other links you provided, will not do cos they address issues facing the islamic banks, and not problems caused/posed by Islamic banking. Please read the contents before posting the links.


On the dubai issue, the article you linked to does not in anyway point to Islamic banking being the cause of the dubai crisis. Rather the article was expounding on the challenges facing the legal structure as the traditional banking (from the creditor i.e. depositors and bond holder point of views) clashes with Islamic banking principles ( from the debtor and islamic bank point of view). The article specifically notes that only 10% of the dubai debt were sharia compliant. Again try to read the content before posting the link.

More importantly, would be for you to leave your opinion of Islam, or Muslims out of the issue. You can make your argument without attacking the religion of others. Your earlier posts are indicative of religious bigotry and intolerance.

One can sometimes get things wrong, I am not immune to that. However, I suppose issues facing Islamic bank do not in anyway highlight the flaws of Islamic/sharia forms of banking?

Bigotry? No I am an equal opportunity offender. I will say the same thing regardless of religion.

As it stand, Lagosboy already stated it is a matter of choice. I respect that. I ain't about to put my money in them so yeah on that basis, there isn't much to say.

Lagosboy:
Buddy i am at work and cant read your article now but for you to say
I am not here to debate with you on shariah buddie and i will not steer the debat in that direction. I also dont want to debate or islamic bank is the best or is the worst as i have no time for that.

Buddie the simple thing is islamic banking is optional you either put your money in it or you dont. You either borrow from it or you dont. No one is being forced to use it and we are in a free market.
Islamic bank of Britain operates shariah banking and regulated by the FSA the british people have a choice. Why should you have anyone have an issue with an islamic bank in Nigeria which gives people the choice tell me? this is the debate and this is the arguement.

People in the UK kiss here on the street and have no problem with skimpy dresses. I suppose this will be good too in Nigeria?

Choice or no choice, I am not sure how that rules out the fact that Islamic banking is a flawed concept. But each one to their own right?

da-whizkid:
@elrazur
r u serious when u said he ain't needed on the block no more? I bet i saw Juelz Santana sucking Em's a$$ for a Collabo. . . Everybody wants to do a collabo wiv him(even the hot boi of the moment), n u r insinuating that he ain't relevant no more Dude your Opinion Sucks!

**shakes head**

**sighs**

I am saying he is not the "new kid on the block" any more. For example, once upon a time Rugged man was the new kid on the block, now while he is still there [on the block] he is no longer the new kid. Same with eminem.

A little bit of understanding someone's post can go a long way in avoiding unnecessary bickering.

Lagosboy:
I posted this before your post so i will have read at your article and comment. Just a side note there are doezens of country operating islamic banks a country like Bangladesh should never be a benchmark , yardstick in analysing islamic banks never.

I would read the article later when i am less busy but the topic says Problem with islamic banking in Bangladesh not problem with islamic banking.

Please explain as to why it should not be a bench mark? Is the same banking rules - Islamic banking - not applicable to the one in Nigeria? After all, they are based on the same principles? No?

If that won't do. Please have a read over here - at least it acknowleges there are issues and far from perfect. [like some muslims will have us believe]

http://www.siddiqi.com/mns/Lecture3.htm

http://www.sbp.org.pk/departments/ibd/Lecture_8_Related_Reading_1.pdf

Lagosboy:
Elrazur how did you arrive at your findings that islamic banking is flawed without any intellectual arguement to back your conclusion up. You simply say you cannot operate without interest without anything to back it up. You made me laugh when you made reference to Dubai and islamic banking which shows you have done little to understand the dubai crises. Dubai doesnt operate islamic finance buddie , it has a few banks in UAE offering islamic retail banking products but not Dubai as a state. All the funds and debts they incurred are from western banks buddie so i dont get your linking of islamic banking to dubai crises.

I supposed you missed the links I posted on purpose? Nice. Perhaps you should refer back to it.

Dubai operates a form of Sharia banking, one of the many reasons they do not pay taxes on their earnings, to deny this just goes to show perhaps your ignorance?  Here is a link showing how Islamic banking played a part in the recent dubai crisis.
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/in-dubai-crisis-a-test-of-law-and-islamic-banking/

No the debt are not inccured by the western banks, but they were foolish enough to believe the banking system used in Dubai will work for them and because of greed, they invested in it. Hence why they lost money as a result. To blame the western bank for a silly form of banking is laughable.

Now how does this assertion fit into any intellectual arguement, You simply conclude something is flawed if based on shariah, would you mind defining shariah to me so we could understand your point.

Perhaps the notion that Sharia itself is a flawed concept? No? I don't know about you, if something is based on a shaky foundation or concept, then clearly the whole concept is flawed? No?

common buddy you are more than this even if you hate islam which is not an issue you should still be a little objective. Why should top western banks offer a flawed product , if it is flawed how will they make profit. point of correction the western banks who adopt it are in no way attractin any global market as the products are simply retail banking products - mortgage especially . Please just read issues well before summarising you conclusions.

Again I disagree. The whole world is heading toward globalisation and in other to get a head start, most industry are doing business in places where they normally wouldn't. China in Sudan will be one example.

i made an assertion that people call Sanusi a terroris without understanding what is islamic banking is. The burden of proof is on the one saying we should stop islamic banking - we need proofs, reasons and arguements to stop it and not statement like "if it is based on shariah then it is flawed".

Is the fact that Sharia itself is a flawed concept enough?

What has my being muslim got to do with this issue buddie you do not need to personalise issues here lets deal with the substance.

Because as with most muslim, you displayed a blind loyalty to your faith. The fact of the matter is, sharia is flawed and sharia or Islamic banking is even more flawed.

Please download the report I posted and come back and talk to me. Also take time to read the links I posted in this reply too. It will make for an interesting debate.

Here is a deep read on where Islamic banking is flawed.

www.cdss.ingenousbd.org

ISSUES AND PROBLEMS OF ISLAMIC BANKING IN BANGLADESH
Dr. S. M. Ali AkkasÆ’
Email: akkas54@gmail.com, info@cdss.ingeniousbd.org

Web: www.cdss.ingeniousbd.org

1. An Overview on the Review of Problems
The Islamic banks face a number of challenges. First, they have not yet been successful in devising an interest-free mechanism to place their funds on a short-term basis. They face the same problem in financing consumer loans and government deficits. Second, the risk involved in profit-sharing seems to be so high that most of the banks have resorted to those techniques of financing which bring them a fixed assured return. As a result, there is a lot of genuine criticism that these banks have not abolished interest but have in fact only changed the nomenclature of their transactions.1 Third, the Islamic banks do not have the legal support of central banks of their respective countries (except in Pakistan and Iran), which exposes them to great risks. Fourth, the Islamic banks do not have the necessary expertise and trained manpower to appraise, monitor, evaluate and audit the projects they are required to finance. As a result, they cannot expand despite having excess liquidity. The future of Islamic banks hinges, by and large, on their ability to find a viable alternative to interest for financing all types of loans. They should recognize that their success in abolishing interest has been at least partial and they have yet to go a long way in their search for a satisfactory alternative to interest. Simultaneously, Islamic banks need to improve their managerial capabilities by training their personnel in project appraisal, monitoring, evaluation and performance auditing. Moreover, the future of Islamic banks also depends on developing and putting into practice such accounting standards which provide timely and reliable information of the type that the Islamic banks would require for profit-sharing, rent-sharing or for cost-plus financing. These standards are yet to be developed. The Islamic banks would have to work hard to pursue their clients to accept these standards so that a reliable information base is established.2

2. Issues and Problems in the Implementation of an Interest-Free Banking
The implementation of an interest-free banking raises a number of questions and potential problems if seen from the macro and micro operational point of view.

2.1 Issues Related to Macro Operation of Islamic Banking System

2.1.1 Liquidity Islamic banking stands for the use of money as a medium of exchange. Conventional banking, on the other hand, emphasizes the need for maintaining liquidity and hence requires an adequate amount of reserves. The basic principle of Islamic banking being PLS-based financing and thereby having been exposed to increased risk; it would conceivably require higher liquidity and reserves. The reason is that its investment in assets has by nature lesser divisibility and reversibility. This means that reserve ratios for interest-free banking are to be calculated on the basis of risk calculation in various forms of investment.
Æ’

Director (Planning and Development), Bangladesh Open University.

The complex problem in measuring liquidity is that liability management in the conventional banking system has been gradually replacing asset management to fund liquidity needs. At present, no such facilities exist under the Islamic banking system. As a result, these banks have to depend on their central bank to supply cash. The liquidity ratios required by the banking laws on demand and time deposits differ from country to country. In some countries, the supervisory authorities reserve the right to impose different ratios on different banks according to their location. At present, the liquidity ratio is 35% of demand and time liabilities in Pakistan.3 The existing lending operations of conventional bank for definite maturity are based on the doctrine of ‘anticipated income theory,’ where bank loans are not self-liquidating in the sense of ‘commercial loan theory.’ These loans are paid off out of the future earnings of the borrower, and are liquid according to their nature, guarantee, and marketability. Since Islamic banks are not based on the same principle, but are investing in assets represented by commodities, shares in companies or working capital of companies, the theoretical probability of these assets becoming liquid is more difficult to ascertain than in conventional banks. Also, greater fluctuations in the liquidity ratio due to the still largely agrarian nature of these economies will significantly affect the ability of Islamic banks to provide credit to private sector. This requires special attention when fixing liquidity ratios for each type of deposit and each kind of investment in order to allow a degree of liquidity higher than conventional banks.4 With regard to the elements comprising the liquid assets of Islamic banks, it would be necessary to allow these reserves to be held in the form of financial instruments. Similarly, the bank capital requirements under Islamic banking would be higher to protect the depositors against unexpected losses, if any, on the investment portfolios, increasing the requirement of legal and loss reserves that could provide additional safety cushion. 2.1.2 Valuation of Bank’s Assets It is argued that Islamic banks may suffer a loss of value of its assets in the absence of a fixed positive rate of return. Further, without the provision of insurance Islamic banks may face trouble in making their system stable and avoiding liquidity crises. So far, under Islamic banking, no such insurance system exists. Theoretically, Islamic banks are likely to face a dual risk: (a) the ‘moral’ risk due to lack of honesty and integrity on the part of the borrower of funds in declaring a loss, (b) the ‘business’ risk arising from unexpected market behaviour. The deposits under the PLS system are conceptually more akin to a mutual fund’s share certificate. These deposits would share in both the realised as well as unrealised gains and losses on the investment of Islamic banks. Typically under current Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, the investment portfolio is adjusted to market values in investment companies. An upward adjustment of the assets account requires an offsetting credit to either revenue or unrealised capital increment. Unrealised capital decrement requires recording of an unrealised loss on long-term equity securities as a contra item in stockholder’s equity. The problem associated with proper valuation of Islamic banks’ assets has important implications for bank safety and bank regulation. Any specification of reserve or provision requirements laid down by the regulatory agencies will have to consider how far the gains
2


(losses) on banks’ investments are passed on to the depositors. If in the extreme case, these gains and losses are fully reflected in the value of the deposits, the banks probably would be passing on all the risks to their depositors. Another problem in determining the profit or loss to be distributed to the depositors of the Islamic banks relates to the periodic evaluation of their assets, especially in case of long-term investments, such as Mudaraba, or Musharaka. In the case of Participation Term Certificates (PTCs), market values could be observable if an active market in these instruments exists. Such a market for the PTCs is not fully developed in countries experimenting with the interest free banking system. The value of long-term investments would fluctuate with the changes in the expected cash flows as well as in the opportunity cost of capital. In the absence of an active market in these investments, the valuation process could be very imprecise and costly. 2.1.3 Credit Creation and Monetary Policy The general perception is that most of the traditional policy instruments of the central bank are largely redundant under Islamic banking. These include: minimum cash reserve requirement, liquidity requirement, overall credit ceilings on lending activities of these banks, mandatory targets for providing finance to specific sectors, and moral suasion. Of course, equating the goals of monetary policy in Islamic banking to those of the free market economies would not be fair since there is a significant difference in emphasis of the two systems to economic values and socio-economic justice. Monetary policy under Islamic banking assigns a somewhat passive role to money. Chapra opines that the central bank should adjust the money stock to keep pace with the secular growth of output. In his view the control of money supply can be accomplished by regulating the high powered money at the source. He suggested two alternatives. The first is to impose a 100% reserve requirement on the commercial banks, thus permitting the central bank to create credit, which will be channeled through commercial banks on a Mudaraba basis. The second alternative is to allow banks to create deposits. Given the Islamic emphasis on re-distributive justice, this may result in either nationalizing the commercial banks or forcing the banks to pass on to the state the net income arising from ‘derivative’ deposits after allowing for the share of the commercial banks. Under this alternative, he suggests a 15-20% statutory reserve requirement on only demand deposits without extending it to cover deposits, which constitute a part of equity in an Islamic economy. This alternative has its own conceptual problems of dividing ‘net income’ among the shareholders, depositors, and the state. Also, since the deposits will be invested in the long-run projects, which are likely to be more profitable, this scenario will pose greater liquidity constraints.5 M. Khan divides the sources of funds into demand deposits and investment deposits and places a 100% reserve requirement for the first category of deposits6. Such a restriction would reduce the power of banks to create credit. As investment deposits are used for risk-bearing activities, no reserve requirements are needed. Al-Jarhi proposed a model, which he calls a “productivity-based financial and monetary structure� in which the central bank creates a fiat money through “sale and purchase of central deposit certificates� instead of issuing interest-bearing government securities7. According to
3


Jarhi the expansion in money must be justified by a possible contribution to real balances. The growth of money must go with the real growth of the economy. There are no fractional reserves in the model. The central bank issues certificates as liabilities and holds loan accounts and deposits in member banks. The banks hold assets in the form of cash, equity shares, PLS accounts, and leasing accounts, while their liabilities consist of non-interest bearing demand deposits, investment deposits and certificates issued to their customers. Thus, in Jarhi’s model, the indirect link between financial and goods market established by the financial intermediaries is replaced by direct participation of banks in productive investment projects. The growth and the past behaviour of inflation provide the central bank with necessary information on the expansion or contraction of money supply. The consequences of Jarhi’s model are as follows: (a) there is no discount rate as a policy tool in such an economy. An economy-wide elimination of discount rate will entail profound structural changes, focusing on social justice in the light of existing economic conditions. In the absence of interest rate, and for the purpose of discounting future income streams for project evaluation, some mechanism in an Islamic economy must serve as a discount factor; (b) monetary policy becomes closely intertwined with the development policy of the economy. Therefore, his suggested policy questions the emphasis on the stabilization policy followed by conventional central banks in post-war period. (c) The above emphasis tends to encourage lending of funds on the basis of profitability of investment projects rather than solvency and credit worthiness of the borrower in the debt finance case. This would require trained banking personnel and expertise in project feasibility, evaluation and appraisal by the commercial banks, which may lead to increased monitoring costs for Islamic banks. There is a recurring emphasis in Islamic banking literature on 100 percent reserve requirements. Though this permits the central bank a direct control of money stock, the emphasis is more pointed in favor of Islamic equity and against the notion of ‘hidden subsidy’ involved in the generation of ‘derivative’ deposits in the interest based banking system. Accordingly, credit creation is confined to the central bank, which extends credit to commercial banks on a PLS basis. The fractional reserve system versus 100% reserves would have different policy implications. Under the former system, banks would have the ability to draw profits on funds that they have exerted no productive effort. Such earning is against the original spirit of Islamic banking. One solution may lie in the nationalization of commercial banks, which has already occurred in most of these countries. As regards the latter, we have a fair amount of theoretical insight from the western literature but do not have any valuable empirical observations on the operations of 100% reserves even in countries that have adopted Islamic banking. These Islamic banks are still operating under fractional reserve system. Hence, the operation of monetary policy under 100% reserves system needs further research. In summary, according to the principle of Islamic banking private banks should not have the power to create money. The power to create money should be reserved for the government or its central bank.

4

Heck here is the link if anyone wants to read more, but it will require a registration [those with a facebook account can use it to get it for free]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12878941/Issues-and-Problems-of-Islamic-Banking

bashdecash:
we dont owe you any explanation on why we want an interest-free banking. No body is forcing you to invest in it. Am yearning for its launching so that i will pack my money from all these collapsing and uncertain banks.

Who the phuck is we?

Off course you owe a bloody explanation if you can defend it on a public forum, or are you just one of those Islamabots who just supports anything because it is Islam? You clearly do not understand how Islamic banks work, if you do, you wont be eager to move your money there.

Perhaps he is in "isolation"?

Lagosboy:
Some posts just give out the level of intellect in our young people. How on earth could anyone have an issue with the introduction of an Islamic bank in Nigeria. Islamic banks operate in the UK,US headquarters of an Islamic financial centre is in Paris, Big banks like HSBC, Lyods have Islamic and shariah compliant products. But we silly Nigerians without spending 30mins to use our intellect in understanding the basics principle and benefits of Islamic finance we are quick to call the CBN a terrorist!. Soludo should be a bigger binladen for approving the Jaiz Islamic bank then.

Yeah post like yours shows your level of knowledge of how Islamic banking really works.

Please using your infinite wisdom and not the fact that you are a muslim. please explain to us how islamic banking works. Oh better still, the principles of Islamic banking.

Kai see as them flog my wife for this thread.

Not fair. lol.

Kosovo - No clue.

Seun - Control freak.

Yeah, sue me.

Islamic banking is flawed. Anyone who need a real life application should take a look at the recent crisis in Dubai. The authorities there did as much as they can to shush it up.

You cannot operate a banking system without interest and what not, it is just a flawed principle if based on sharia. Those nation who have adopted it in the west are doing so in order to attract global market - even it is means doing so on the back of something as crazy as sharia.

Please feel free to look this up.

debojyde:
15 minutes fo fame I dont think so. Check his performance 2010 grammy's with drake/wayne to and c that he is the best out there. Best live performance at the grammys this year, Do u even know the meaning of the parase "15 min of fame"

Really? I suppose you are about to explain the meaning of the phrase "15 mins of fame" to me.

The point is, he is been around for a while now and he sorta feels like LL Cool J. While no one is taking anything away from his rap prowess, he just do not feel like the need kid on the block any more - hence my statement of "15 mins of fame". Like I said, I find him almost boring and repetitive, and he aint doing it for me no more.

In the mean time, please explain your meaning to me. I look forward to learning something new.

Not only is he a true spitter, he uses complex words and packs his verse filled with so many words. He died before his time in my opinion.

eldee:
IN MY OWN OPINION Eminem's flow will kill anyone dead or alive.

Fixed to reflect better accuracy and meaning.

MrPrsdent:
only on a nigerian forum would you get daft threads like these.

why show off your  so-called 'qualifications' to faceless people on the net who care 0% what qualifications you have or don't have.

Next thing,we will have a thread asking us to declare our net-worth and bank balance.

I fear for una oooo

This is why I love this guy. He is one straight-talking son-of-a-woman who do not give two monkeys. I like him!

saokea:
ElRazur, I guess most of us are illiterate OMO ITAs. An average level headed Nigerian is a hustler!

Speak for yourself. Some of us are hard working individuals, who are just straight-up hard working people and not hustler. Kai.

saokea:
I have got a degree in Hustling!

Translation: I am an illiterate Omo ita.

PhD
Bsc
Rocket Scientist
Brain Surgeon

And those are just the qualifications of those who work for me. Yeah sue me, I have nothing but Primary 6. Heck, I failed common entrance but have a healthy bank account of about 120 million and my estate is worth more. Who is the loser now? With all your qualification, half of you suckers will still say"yes sir" to me. God punish una.

I think his 15mins of fame is over. I personally lost interest in him as I can find his rapping style boring and repetitive.


I wonder if the "Dont approach me" Featuring exhibit is sorta like a remake or continuation from the previous "Dont approach me"?

His collab with Obie somehow rings a bell in my head.

luizworld:
^^ i am intreste din d bbq stuff, can i know where d venue is

I am not sure if you missed it, but I have stated that the place will be discussed only via email. If you are happy for everyone from nairaland knowing where you will be on a certain date and at a particular time, I am not comfortable with that.

candylips:
so how is the plan going

The plan is we need more people to show interest. It will be unfair to ask people to pay through the nose due to having less people. Like I said the more people we have the better it will get.



Just as a recap the list are as follows:


FollyBIGsmallPimp

Rs231

TKB417 ??

Madlady ??

platinumnk

Pweety4me ??

jay bee

Chamotex.

Debosky

Sienna and Wife.

FL Gators

Kal/El

Galatico

peachie

Pweety4me:
_{Pay? when did that come in any agreement?so there is entry fee 2 ah?and can u plse replace dat smile wif i kiss smiles kinda freak me out. . .hehe}

Well, this is how it works. Interested people will have to pay at some point as the place we will use, music and food are not free. Remember? The last BBQ saw everyone paid about 20pounds each to help cover the cost. We are not forcing anyone nor is there an agreement drawn. If people do not pay, they cannot come it is as simple as that. There is no 419 involved here, so calm down.

If you have a better idea on how to organise a BBQ [Like meeting in a park or something] I am all ears.

The more people we have, the less the price to pay.

The last BBQ saw about 500pounds or raised as it covered for for the day, music/dj, hall etc. If this is too much for you and you feel uncomfortable, please feel free to have your name removed.

How much for the "application form"?

List update

Vocals - Krayola, Whizkid, Genuflect, Lalaboi [skit], Pheesayor.

Contributing writers - Java love.

Back tracks:Nnonah11, ElRazur



More please.

ofokaofoki:
you are wrong, there is no producer that doesnt have fruity loops, .
the only difficult thing is mixing and mastering .
if u can produce a beat you are a beatmaker, but if u can mix and master it then you are a producer. period.!

For starters, saying "period" will be good if that is the end of the dicussion.

I am not keen on arguing with you, but know this. I have been in studios here and checked out schools where music and sound engineering are taught. None of these place have Fruity loops. It is not an industry standard, but if you wanna keep arguing. Please be my guest.

Here is a quick google result and the first professional studio that comes up do not even use Fruityloops in their software, however pro tools are used.

http://www.iguanastudio.co.uk/equipment.html

http://www.metwaystudios.co.uk/equip.htm


You will not find serious artist record with FL studio.


Also the term producer like I said have been watered down to the extent that it could mean anything. An artist who oversees the work on his/her album can be classed as producer too, hence why you see some albums with "Executive Producer".  Dr Dre in some his album makes the beat with other artist etc, yet he credit his name as "Producer".

Been able to make beats and master a track are not the end definition of what makes a producer, there are a few factors and more are coming by day. Hence why I said it is now a watered down term.