₦airaland Forum

I am a member of the Church.

You see the problem now?

Just as I pointed out in my last post above your last ----- is the Malachi not from Mosaic law?

Benstino:
For those of u insinuating dat tithe is imposed on people,I definetly dont know which church u goes.In mine,it aint a must.Tith is bw u and God.Pay it and it goes well with u.Refuse to pay,and u turn urself into a criminal.Just make thy choice

Also, on what basis did you make these claims?

Is it not on the basis of the same Mosaic law.

Afterall, neither Jesus nor any of the apostles taught or suggested that Christians should tithe! Abi no be so?

^^^ On what basis are you paying tithes into church ---- Abram/Melchizedek?

If so, is paying it into church obligatory?

Does the Abram example not allow you to "tithe" by giving it to the poor --- especially considering Jesus said that when you give to the poor you give to Him?

@ Benstino

Meanwhile I had forgotten the one that says you can "chopulate" the tithe yourself.

Deuteronomy 14

22 “You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

23 And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Joagbaje:
You just want attention. So let me give you a verse to cool you down.

Proverbs 26:17
17 He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

Besides I never called you a bastard the bible did. That's what it calks sheep without shepherd . I only quoted what it says.

Hebrews 12:8
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Ehn now, just like the Bible calls Oyakhilome too a bastard --- afterall him too be sheep without a shepherd.

Meanwhile, I called you a hypocrite on this thread not because of the past but because of your name calling on this thread itself - but it seems you were too daft to realise your hypocrisy until I have now explained.

Anyway, people like us will only stop calling out the falsehoods and heresies of your bastard boss when he repents.

OK Benstino


1. Deuteronomy 26:12

KJV

When you have finished tithing all the tithes of your increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and have given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within your gates, and be filled

NIV

When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

2. Deuteronomy 14:28-29

KJV

At the end of three years you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase the same year, and shall lay it up within your gates:

29[b]And the Levite, (because he has no part nor inheritance with you,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied[/b]; that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

NLT

At the end of every third year, bring the entire tithe of that year’s harvest and store it in the nearest town. 29[b]Give it to the Levites, who will receive no allotment of land among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns[/b], so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work.

3. Matthew 25

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

EDIT Sorry, I have modified no 3 as I wanted the positive (not the negative) arm of the passage.

@ Benstino

Bear with me for just one more post. I will post the passages in my very next post on this thread.

However, first, I would like your honest answer to this question: if I do come up with a passage or two where God says we should give/share tithes to/with widows orphans etc, how would this affect your current understanding?

No, I am not trying to make an argument at all. I really just want to understand your thinking ---- because I have seen one or two people here argue that atheism and agnosticism are the same thing.

The God Almighty of the Bible; the very I am that I am.

^^^ Will you obey God Himself and give/share your tithes to/with widows, orphans etc like God commanded?

Haribo:
Has Athiesm ever gotten me in trouble? No (not yet rather). I'm not atheist, I am agnostic. . . . .

Out of curiosity, do you mind explaining what you consider to be the difference(s) between atheism and agnosticism?

Thanks.

^^^ Hypocrite ---- since you think it is alright to call other posters names.

Remember all the other times you similarly gave names to other posters ---- which it turns out also apply to Oyakhilome? Like bastard, for example?

NOOOO

GOD, GOD GOD Himself "dictated" commanded:

(a) that the tither should spend the tithe on whatever his soul desired; and

(b) that the tither should share the tithe with widows, orphans etc

lagerwhenindoubt:
Let me give you an example - I believe that the symbolic event of the curtain in the temple ripped in half after the resurrection means that the Holy Spirit or God's essence is freed upon humanity - no longer to be dished out piece-meal by anointed men of God, but to be accessed individually by everyone. some groups claim that you cannot ask for forgiveness from God by yourself but must do so through an intercessor who is as human as you and in some cases, less morally upstanding than you. (an ill-conceived misconception from not having all the facts). call me a doubting thomas. i must see to believe however it does not mean I do not keep an open mind.

But are you not indirectly saying that you accept what the Bible says - at least about the death and resurrection of Jesus?

PS: mind, the curtain was ripped in half upon the death of Jesus not after his resurrection in fact, according to Bible

^^ Also bear in mind the following:

1. On at least one occasion, the Bible said that the tither should spend the tithe himself and for whatever his heart desires.

2. On at least two occasions, the Bible said that the tither should share the tithes with widows, orphans etc.

^^^ Then, argue with Jesus Christ who said you should give to the poor.

^^^ "Attack on Bible and on Christianity my leg! So, pointing out the fraud of false teachers, deceivers and heretics is "attacking" the Bible and Christianity?

"Other faiths" my leg! Some of us were not fooled by your opening post. And really, how many people of the Christian posters bother with Moslems and "other faiths"; how many people for example attack the Eckists, the Grail movement people etc? I didn't even used to bother with the evangelical* atheists --- except it became necessary recently to show them up for what those moronic trolls are.

Here is one more thing: the people who have a go at the Moslems etc will most likely grow out of it. Will Oyakhilome and other false teachers ever repent of their rubbish?



* Evangelical atheists of course ---- distinguished from ordinary/"passive" (in non-pejorative sense) atheists.

^^^ The {modern} evangelical atheist, and this is true certainly of those on this forum, is not interested in an honest discussion to try and understand other people's perspectives or to make any worthwhile intellectual input. In these environments s/he is usually an ignorant and at the same time dishonest troll.

And remember: Trolls are pinheads.

^^^

Trolls are pinheads.

A lot of the OP is yada yada ---- sooooo don't comment on the "pastors" (TB Joshua's church) reported in the news yesterday who advised people not to take their HIV drugs because of "faith" and some of them died.

By the way, here is a bonus for Oyakhilome followers (scroll down the link to read story): http://www.globalnewsnig.com/?p=100

^^^ I was following debosky --- I was following and I'm sure many people were.

In any event, I have had that exact experience with the particular poster concerned and I have also recently realised that a number of other people have had a similar experience with him in particular and with a few others among the evangelical atheists.

^^^ Thus you will notice that many of us don't bother to debate the atheists in general; even those who get dragged into a debate or who indulge soon find out that the evangelical atheists are NOT really interested in a genuine or legitimate debate. What they very much hope to do is to sow the doubt that you refer to through various underhand and even patently dishonest methods.

Hence it is perfectly fine even without engaging them in debate to at least occasionally expose how contemptible the evangelical atheists and their techniques are. Do you not see them on "Christian-only" threads? On "Praise-only" threads; on "testimony-only" threads? Who is "debating" them there? Yet they go there with their odious excreta?

lagerwhenindoubt:
@OP. I think it is becoming worrisome that Religious folks will dedicate so much energy discussing atheism and its qualities in the most purile manner. I thought the scriptural injunction and foremost on the minds of religious christian folks is spreading the message of Salvation, Love and Brotherhood. Letting their light so shine before men that they may see their good works and glorify God. Religious folks do not honor God by engaging is so much idle banter that it has now become a breakfast item for christians on NL. I think it has become a psychotic behavior that implies a much deeper underlying problem - ADDICTION to ATHEISM.

For Religious folks who feel the obligation to free Atheists from their debauched state,  please seek medical and psychological attention in earnest before it develops into a Cult problem

I would say this is a rather simplistic approach. Interestingly it is also an approach that suggests for Christians a form of rigidity --- whereas rigidity is one of the things the evangelical* atheists and anti-Christians criticise Christianity for. Yes, Christianity requires its followers to be gentle as doves ---- but it also requires its followers to be wise as serpents. Is it possible that occasionally exposing the atheists and other anti-Christians for what they are (largely ignorant and usually dishonest) is part of being wise as a serpent? Do you think a Christian cannot be led by the Spirit to challenge and expose the falsehoods of the liars?



*Of course it is the evangelical atheists --- as opposed to "passive" atheists for example.

1Godfather:
There was a time when one could reasonably discuss with an atheist on belief and non-belief and expect a polite but firm discussion. Ultimately, the theist may not succeed in getting the atheist to see his point of view, but the exchange would be as cordial as it was passionate. This is because, the atheist would be interested in showing why he is not fully persuaded to believe. Perhaps, if you run into a decent friend or acquaintance who is ideologically opposed to you on the God question, such a frank but civil discussion can truly occur.

[b]Alas these days, with the birth of this New Atheism, unsophisticated and full of sound and fury, it has become quite fashionable in atheist circles to deride, cajole, mock, insult and pollute theists and theism. This is what usually passes for intelligent debates with many of today's atheists--some haughty posturing borne out of a sincere atheistic belief that virtually all theists are silly and DELUSIONAL. It is no wonder that these discussions quickly devolve into a mud-slinging match because people cease engaging honestly and respectfully. Much heat expended but no light thrown on the issue before consideration. After one has tried a few times to discuss issues of great personal import with a person who seems more disposed to aggression, one inevitably tires of the whole affair. Perhaps, like some have suggested, there is really no point to these discussions. Atheists can gather together, as often as they are wont, listen to speeches (read sermons) delivered by their atheistic high priests, build up and exhort one another in their common God-disbelief, share an intimate fellowship of universal mockery or umbrage at some offensive actions from the faith arena, and disperse to their respective homes--ALL WITHOUT BOTHERING ABOUT THESE 'IGNORANT' THEISTS![/b]

But I think that would be too easy--for how else is an atheist going to satiate the inner hunger to rid theists of their meddlesome and 'ignorant' God-belief if they can't utilize sundry web fora, Youtube videos, billboards and citybuses to fulminate on the ills of religion? I mean, how dare anyone hate on atheists anyway? Aren't they the hallowed few who managed to see through the puerile sunday-school caricature of Christian orthodoxy they were unfortunately given to when they were much younger? Aren't they the uber-logical geniuses against whom every contrary opinion must be the product of some delusion and faulty reasoning? Why should the largely 'ignorant' mass of humanity squirm upon being upbraided by the ever-so-gracious but nonetheless 'completely rational' and 'supremely intelligent' atheist? Shouldn't they consider the atheist's sophomoric diatribe against theism, or his endless bellyaching over the ills committed by religious people, an act of charity? Oh well, I don't know about you--but in the interest of peace, and to massage the egos of newly-minted atheists, who are eager to jump into a debate to vomit the latest things he has picked up in college, perhaps it is better to just sit still and allow an atheist to lecture for all he is worth.

Sadly, I have noticed that too many atheists are rather diffident about honestly sharing what they truly believe; you know, about constructing a positive worldview and philosophy that is completely devoid of God and its implications. Worse, an alarming number of the atheists who feign a serious dedication to science are actually terrible at it; do not seem to understand its finite scope, and regrettably cannot lecture on it. But of course, that shouldn't matter--nothing is as satisfying as a smug dismissal of your theistic opposition as a bunch of deluded dingbats. Its a nice zinger, and I am sure if you deploy that characterization often, in no time, you would rise within atheist ranks. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone--intolerance is a vice only when theists employ that against atheists. When atheists show intolerance for theists, it can only be because they are genuinely concerned about the theist's refusal to see the light.

Let the discussions rage on, then.

Very very well put! (PS I have taken the liberty to highlight a few parts.)

@ Godmother

Supposing that one month you are about to pay your tithe into church or to a man of God but you learn that one family needs money urgently because their child in hospital needs an operation: do you think it would be right to pay your tithe directly to that family?

Before you answer, please read Deuteronomy 14:22-29.

^^^ You catch our friend with that one small.

Anyway the opening post reminds me of a post I made not long ago and which I now post again here.


Let me demonstrate for the atheists here how they can be taken seriously by contrasting some scenarios.

Scenario 1 --- an atheist (especially evangelical atheist) comes to this forum and says: Christians believe in stoning people to death because of passages in Leviticus. Well, I personally will not take the person seriously and while I may not say so openly on the forum (or only use clever/polite language to say it) I will certainly consider the person a fo.ol in my mind.

Scenario 2 --- an atheist person says with discernibly genuine honesty: 'You these Christians, I don't understand you and this your Bible; I mean your Bible says to stone some people to death!' I will regard the person as misinformed (but not necessarily a fo.ol) and may be prepared to engage in discussion.

Scenario 3 --- here I present to the atheists (especially the evangelical atheists) what may make them begin to earn my respect: they say I know that in Leviticus the Bible says stone some people to death, I know that you Christians do not today really believe people should be stoned to death, I have some idea how you manage to "side-step" those provisions in Leviticus but I am interested in a detailed understanding of the argument(s) or way(s) for "side-stepping" those provisions in Leviticus.

Scenario 4 --- an atheist says I understand some of your arguments for "side-stepping" the Leviticus "difficult passages" and I can understand how you find that those arguments give you peace of mind; however, for me as an atheist I do not find those arguments convincing! Again, I can understand that kind of position.

But to come here and say Christians believe in stoning people to death (or Christians don't believe in taking conventional medicine as one of the [i]evangelical [/i]atheists argued incredibly some time ago), either out of ignorance or in intellectually dishonest fashion, earns nothing but contempt from me.

^^^ Ah I did say that the evangelical atheists tend to whine like sissies and pansies but I didn't really think you were an 'oofter after all. I will bear that in mind now but I'm afraid I don't play or swing like that.

Anyway, always keep the below in mind whenever you are about to engage in your juvenile nonsense:

Trolls are pinheads.

^^

Trolls are pinheads.

^^^

Trolls are pinheads.
These trolls like to visit and try to disrupt our happy forum. Their lowly reason for existence is to post provocative, hostile or annoying messages. They claim they are here to discuss, but in fact are just here to cause trouble.

One of the evangelical atheists kindly and generously supplied the description quoted below of the activities of himself and his fellow evangelical atheist religionists in relation to Christian (or even simply faith) discussions. I have already been reminding him of the description or bits of it and will happily continue doing so as necessary. 

Trolls try to disrupt, destroy, or change discussion groups to fit their own agendas. . . .Trolls are pinheads.
These trolls like to visit and try to disrupt our happy forum. Their lowly reason for existence is to post provocative, hostile or annoying messages. They claim they are here to discuss, but in fact are just here to cause trouble. Trolls have an exaggerated sense of their own importance. Trolls will frequently use a persecution defence when they are asked to cease their anti-social behaviour. When someone asks them nicely to stop posting their negative comments, they claim innocent intent and will scream censorship. They will claim they are being singled out because of their unpopular viewpoints.

Trolls will only stay when they are fed or given attention. So please do not pet, respond to, or feed trolls. Doing so only results in their prolonged stay.

(Formatting and emphasis added)

^^

Trolls are pinheads.