₦airaland Forum

Bump --- with relish!

I didn't realise something as good as the OP was lurking in the archives.

Should come in useful every now and then, I'm sure.

Knight1:
@ joagbaje
can you not see this?
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

there are two statements in that sentence. the second is the 'utterance of grace'. God is omnipresent, very correct. but he doesn't manifest his presence everywhere. that is the point of the prayer.

and i don't even know why praying to GOd to be with you should be an issue
It's not like He's complaining,

Their problem is conceit and lack of depth of understanding --- quite ironic, considering they keep going on about 'milk' and 'strong meat'.

Notice they cannot provide any sensible explanation why Paul would pray "God be with you" for other Christians and for Timothy --- a whole 'pastor'.

Or maybe Paul was not aware of the words of Jesus? Or maybe those other Christians and even Timothy the 'pastor' did not have the Holy Spirit is why Paul kept praying on several occasions "God be with you". Mind you if our friends insist on a distinction between "God be with me" and "God be with you" then any time someone prays "God be with you" to them they should reject it; they should tell Oyakhilome that if anyone prays "God be with you" for him, he should reject it --- since he would not say the same for himself. Anyway, since I'm not sure he really believes in God I won't be surprised if he rejects it.

^^ OK --- but don't you think there is a reason why Paul should pray "God be with you" for other Christians ? In fact, even for Timothy - a whole 'pastor' as you people like to point out?

Try and think of one or two reasons why Paul might have made such a prayer.

If When a so-called "pastor" teaches his followers:

- you do not have to obey God
- you stand in Christ stead (sic)
- you are god
- you own Kosmos (you own the world)
- the Lord's Prayer is not for "mature" Christians (edit: how could I forget this one!)
- you should not pray to or through Christ (further edit: now forgetting this one shows I'm really slacking!)
- etc and other similar nonsense

it is no wonder that many of the followers have no proper sense of morality, virtue and all the things that the Bible requires Christians to follow in accordance with the teachings of Christ and the apostles. It is no surprise that fraud, theft, stealing and lying are seen as normal things by many of the followers. Anyway when even the "pastor" himself can blatantly lie and do tricks like claiming he makes people fall with his shadow, can one really expect any better from his followers? Can one really expect any better from Chrisians. Christians on the other hand are obviously required to obey God.

You see your problem now?

What is the title of the thread?

In any event, whether it is "God be with you" or "God be with me", they are both perfectly legitimate prayers for a Christian.

I am happy to agree though that they may not be good prayers for a Chrisian i.e. a follower of Chris Oyakhilome or a supporter of Chris Embassy.

You and your man say people should not pray "God be with you" or "God will be with you"; my two posts have already shown you people to be misguided and even wrong.

OK then: take the first three scriptures I gave in my first post, interprete them and then compare with your boss' teaching.

^ Amen.

In addition, one of the reasons to beware of this kind of message that is ultimately a false message unless it is adequately qualified is that it is quite appropriate to remind oneself and others in prayer that "God will be with you". For example we see prayers in the New Testament "God will be with you" which this particular fellow somewhat indirectly disparages slightly. Compare for example:

Phillipians 4:9

Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

2 Corinthians 13:11

Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

Of course God is with us always. However, unless the fellow went on to make appropriate qualifications, the message is misguided, conceited and can mislead people who are not well informed biblically.

Wiser people will pay attention and consider very carefully several prayers in the New Testament epistles including the following:

2 Thessalonians 3:16

Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.

Romans 15:33

31Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, 32so that by God’s will* I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed. 33The God of peace be with you all. Amen.

* The same fellow and others also do the false teaching that people should not pray in/for God's will or "thy will be done"!


2 Timothy 4:22

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Galatians 6:18

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

Romans 4:23

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Philemon 1:25

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

OK Benstino

I get your point but then I have a question:

How did Malachi define "tithes"? In other words what constitutes or amounts to "tithes" according to Malachi?

I do not wish to derail this thread; however, simply for the records and for the sake of others, I repeat that Christian giving is to give WITHOUT expecting anything in return but in the assurance that God who sees the action of giving will reward it as He sees fit. On another occasion or thread, I might be willing to go into a detailed explanation (not even argument or "debate" of this.

For present purpose, I will simply quote a short contextual passage where you see that the giving expected is selfless giving. Luke 6

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

I will leave that issue at that so as to try and get back on topic for which purpose I repeat a point that I always make and that I think is always pertinent in these situations: this kind of frauds being discussed will continue to proliferate as long as the false teachings on tithing, including the insidious "voluntary tithing", is not recognised for the falsehood that it is.

Joagbaje:
. . .
Anyone who practice the principles of prosperity will prosper. Jesus paid the price. We only need to embrace the message of faith. . . .

This is part of the problem! When Christianity is turned to a means for material and financial gain. Note that this time around it will be difficult to deceive us about the meaning of "prosperity" since we are talking about "pastors" owning jets, oil rigs and so on.

Anyway compare what we are seeing and reading on this thread with 1 Timothy 6 which talks of "men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain."

The same passage goes on to say:

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

It is the same problem as some have in that either because of greed or because of intellectual limitation with inability to make fine distinctions, they find it difficult to understand the simple biblical teaching to give WITHOUT expecting anything in return from God or man but in the assurance that God sees the action of giving and will reward it as he sees fit. For example, I see a reference to Luke 6:35 but with an unfortunate blinder that the passage says to give without expecting anything in return but knowing God will reward. Maybe because the language is "hoping to gain nothing" --- but of course which simply boils down to 'not expecting anything in return' as the basis or reason for giving.

Anyway, I say again that this kind of frauds being discussed will continue to proliferate as long as the false teachings on tithing, including the insidious "voluntary tithing",  is not recognised for the falsehood that it is.

harakiri:
@Enigma,I responded to your post where you said "there aren't too many intelligent positions for the evangelical atheist" and the you went on to say they arrived at their position by "faith on analysis". I'll break down your post as soon as I get on a computer.

frosbel:
Please hurry up, we are waiting.

And we waited!

Or are we still waiting?

^^^ Please beware of those people saying "Go to him"; they are usually part of the fraudulent conspiracy or hoping to benefit from it.

In this situation, the most important thing is not really to "go to" the fraudulent wolves in sheep clothing; the most important thing is to warn the sheep that they may lead astray and devour.

So please beware of those manipulating scriptures; the "go to him" manipulation can be as bad and as dangerous as the "touch not (the) anointed" manipulation. Each is based on misinterpretation and manipulation of scriptures.

PS ask Joagbaje who is a state pastor in Chris Embassy what access he has to Oyakhilome that even he can "go to him".

Anyway, the short answer to the OP question is that God does NOT require "tithes". Neither does He now ask anyone to "tithe".

^ And we still have people defending them e.g. one said that one fathead pastor was given an oil rig as a "seed". We have other people supporting them - directly or indirectly - with false arguments that "tithes" are to be paid only into church. They support the falsehood with the further falsehood of the false and non-existent distinction, as far as the New Testament and Christians are concerned, between "tithes" and "offerings; they then say that "tithes" are to go into "church" while any other "giving" including "offering" can go elsewhere. Sheer rubbish! The New Testament recognises just giving  ---- WITHOUT expecting anything in return whether from God or from man but in the assurance that God sees the giving and will reward it as He sees fit.

As I have always said: until people see the lie and bondage of the false teachings on "tithing", we will continue to have these frauds all over the place.

In any event the Bible predicted that all these would happen anyway.

Joagbaje:
. . . .

In Luke 13:1-5, some people came to Jesus to ask Him about the death of some Galileans whom Pilate had killed while they were at worship, mixing their blood with the blood of the sacrifices on the altar. In His response, the Master referred to another event – the tower of Siloam which fell and killed eighteen people. Jesus ascribed their misfortune to sin, and cautioned those He was addressing that except they repented, they would all likewise perish. . . . .

Pastor Chris Oyakhilome

What should have been a simple message, the guy ruins with misinformation or maybe even deliberate falsehood for all one knows. Compare the bolded with:

Luke 13

1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

Well, "insulting other people's faith" is a matter of context; all I can agree is that gratuitous insults should be avoided and sensitivity shown as far as possible. On the other hand it has to be said that it is all well and good chiding Christians not to criticise other faiths but not non-Christians who come up with even lies and misinformation (if not disinformation) e.g. that 'this was added to the Bible', 'that epistle is a forgery', 'the New Testament writers were all frauds' --- and all sorts of other daft nonsense.


Anyway, bear in mind that even Jesus Christ "insulted other people's faith".

John 4

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshippers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

^^^

It is very obvious that your man's "PhD" is fake and also his non-existent "ordination". 

As you are through praying for me, now pray for your man to repent, to turn to Christ and to learn some honesty. 

^^

Don't you shy from my own question too now!!!

Or are you not proud of Oyakhilome's "PhD" or for that matter his "ordination"?

If you answer, I will readily answer your question ---- again, in fact.

But the question that Jobalua/Azibagbaje asked me has "everything" to do with the discussion, right?

Face the truth ---- you guys know that your man's PhD is fake as well about his "ordination".

Whatever the case, better mind your double-standards; otherwise ask your own crew how much of their own contributions to the thread have been on topic.

^^^ Yes indeed: teach the giving that is love driven!!!

Like giving/sharing your tithes to/with:

- the family who are struggling to pay hospital bills of their sick child
- the unemployed fellow who is struggling to make two or three meals a day
- the fellow who needs money for clothing and other things to make him presentable for job interviews
- the elderly lady who needs a treat to give her some lift from usual drudgery

--- and etc similarly

What defines giving that is love driven is that the giver gives WITHOUT expecting anything in return whether from God or from man. However, the giver knows that God has seen his action of giving and trusts in God to reward him as God sees fit.

And for the Christian, the New Testament does not make a distinction, i.e. the false distinction often made nowadays, between "tithes" and "offering". All is giving and all may be given wherever and to whomever the giver "purposes in his heart".

^^^ In every day life we have dealings each day with atheists. Amicable, no friction; some we can even call friends.

The problem is with the evangelical atheist, usually ignorant and dishonest and maybe also suffering some kind of angst, who comes fulminating out of his ignorance and dishonesty. They then get angry and petulant when their conceit is punctured and they get shown up for the dumbasses that they are for the most part.

Zikkyy:
LOL i guess Moses was talking to himself in Deuteronomy Mr. Benstino knows the truth, but just need justification for something he believes in.

In fact ehn! I dey eagerly await to continue the discussion with my brother Benstino.

Ah, thanks zikky; make I quickly look into that!

Indeed the poll is perpetual.

Another thing, people can actually go back and change their vote if they ever change their mind(s) one way or another.

A reminder for people interested in this topic.

Please take part in the following two polls.


1 Who is a tither?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-744234.0.html


2 Who is robbing God?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-747403.0.html

Thanks 


Now edited duly.

Jobalua/Azibagbaje

You don't want to know about my "local assembly" again? 

Abi my question about either Oyakhilome's PhD or his ordination has sent you into retreat mode ni?

That question ti da yin s'adanwo!

JeSoul:
Lol. Actually, I have not once confused you for an atheist. I've seen you play devil's advocate on an occasion or two . . .

Actually, I believe I've actually seen him do more than just play devil's advocate on occasion.

lagerwhenindoubt:
It has been a long while since i last re-read the bible - I stand corrected. the point is Salvation is Free for the asking, It is suspect when some MOG says he forgives you on God's behalf or actually does it himself. I have issues with that. Law and Grace are 2 different eras, some Christians mix and match OT Law and NT Grace to suit ends that are suspect. fortunately I don't believe anything I hear until i have the opportunity to know it for myself.

I agree salvation is free and I also detest the role that fraudulent or misguided "MOGs" arrogate for themselves.

However, my point is about your opinion that the death of Jesus and the tearing of the veil grants us greater access to the Holy One. My point though is that for one who is not a Christian (I believe this is what you say of yourself), you are accepting what the Bible says at least about the events surrounding the death of Jesus. In fact, if you think about it properly, it means that you are accepting quite a lot - a lot a lot a lot - of what the Bible says. My probing was to discover if you were conscious and aware of this.

Jobalua/Azibagbaje (being both one and the same person, often anyway)

I have actually discussed the issue of my "local assembly" before, you know. In any event, I will do so again on one condition --- you answer either one of the two following questions,

A. Where did Oyakhilome get his PhD from?

OR

B. Who ordained Oyakhilome?

Surely, you are not trying to say that it was not God speaking in both Deuteronomy passages!