₦airaland Forum

Pasitọ Joagbaje di tọọgi!

Reminds me of Sura di tailọr --- Ẹspat in sọọrọ and buba; a trayal will kọnfins yu!

^^^ E pass me oh!!

Barr rich:
1. On the issue of receiving stolen goods, you did not prove anything as I had earlier presented to you. The important element of knowledge has not been established based on what you presented here.

So far I have tried to be gentle with you because I perceive you are probably a young lawyer. However, you are by your own words now making a fool of yourself. This point has been explained to you again and again by aletheia (are you not ashamed of being so schooled by a non lawyer --- who even cited legal authority, authority in Nigerian law --- for you?) He pointed out the below to you several times, please now address it. Don't run or hide from it any longer!

In the same vein, knowledge that the property is stolen is required before you can be guilty of the offence. You will however be deemed to have such knowledge if judging from circumstances of the case, a reasonable man ought to have suspected the property in question to have been stolen, for example where the property in question is sold at a ridiculously low price. See[b] R. v. Braimah (1943) W.A.C.A. 197[/b].

Barr rich:
2. The church being notified of what? That monies offered to God as offerings were stolen? At the time the said Mr. Agada was giving the money as offerings, did he say he was giving to God or to Pastor Chris? If to God, then you can direct Mr Agada to who he gave the money to.
Or that generator was stolen from somebody and given as a seed to the church?

This one is just too silly to deserve an answer, I am sorry.

@ Ogajim

You have a serious point, you know.

Anyhow, I've just stumbled on the post below by Joagbaje on another thread. Would you believe that after all his sanctimony here, he actually supports violence against the journalists and the thuggery of his so-called "Christ" Embassy!

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-797878.0.html#msg9505479

Joagbaje:
The guy is a traitor . Imagine him being hostel by this pastor in good will, thrn seeing all the miracles which he didn't deny, his attention is always on the offering box . At the end of the day he packaged a false video potraying his host in bad light. He even road in the pastors car. Yet stabbed him on on the back with false representation. These guys must be satanist. Yet some carnal minded Christians support these actions.

I can see reason why security shout  beat them up. Traitors! Let him come and do that in CEC.

Joagbaje:
The guy is a traitor . Imagine him being hostel by this pastor in good will, thrn seeing all the miracles which he didn't deny, his attention is always on the offering box . At the end of the day he packaged a false video potraying his host in bad light. He even road in the pastors car. Yet stabbed him on on the back with false representation. These guys must be satanist. Yet some carnal minded Christians support these actions.

I can see reason why security shout beat them up. Traitors! Let him come and do that in CEC.

How could I have missed this? Glad I have the chance to frame it up.

Joagbaje is threatening violence --- on behalf of CEC!

So, Joagbaje confirms that CEC is a "church" of thugs!

^^^ Ah, are you the one waiting or we are the ones waiting for you?

In the first place, would you be able to get the church out of the charge of receiving --- considering they should have had suspicions at the time of receiving the stuff?

I was only helping your legal skills by showing you that even apart from receiving ----- e.g. say you insist the church did not know of Agada's crimes at the time it received the money/properties ----- what about when they were then notified that Agada had stolen them?

Further refusal to return the money/property even at that "later" stage means they could be prosecuted as accessories after the fact.

They did not teach you that much in University/law school?

^^^Look, go and sit down one side for now.

First I want your lawyer to decide whether he wants to pursue this on law (because I actually still have things in reserve for him) or whether he wants to pursue the "spiritual/reasonableness" angle.


@ Barr Rich the lawyer, have you also heard of "accessory after the fact"?

^^^ Look, make up your mind. You are the one who just now shifted tack to saying we shouldn't apply "reasonableness" to "spiritual" things and suggesting that a "church" should not ask questions even if there is "reason" to suspect that the "seed" being "sown" into it might be the proceeds of crime.

And I now repeat to you: YES!!!!! I am saying if a person who apparently cannot afford it "sows" a seed worth 4.4 into a "church", the "church" should ask questions!

^^ See post no 269 above.

Alright, if that is your case, counsellor.

If you were a good and well trained lawyer, you should have spotted that there are actually stronger defences that could be made legally/technically for Oyakhilome/the "church" but I reckon you couldn't spot them because you are a rookie. I would have actually made a concession if you had spotted one of them ----- in that if I was defending the "church"/Oyakhilome in an actual criminal trial I would most probably secure a "not guilty" verdict i.e. an acquittal on technical grounds.

OK that being the case with the law since you now started talking about the "spiritual" and that "reasonableness" does not arise in things that have to do with God.  Well, that is only if you are worshipping mammon as is the case with the prosperity "gospel".

YES!!!!! I am saying if a person who apparently cannot afford it "sows" a seed worth 4.4 into a "church", the "church" should ask questions!

^^
OK

At the time Agada donated a generator worth 4.4m to the headquarters of Christ Embassy, the church (including Oyakhilome who was aware and wrote a letter of thanks to Agada and his wife) ought to have known that Agada, an ordinary cashier, could not by his own means afford to "sow" such a "seed".

Remember he also made other donations to the headquarters including chairs or money for chairs. Reasonable people would or should have raised eyebrows and ask where and how he could afford all of these. Remember further that Agada made several (and was even asked for) other large donations about the same time.

Use your sense for a minute: if your young brother who is just a company cashier says he wants to "dash" you 2m naira, you will not ask how he can afford it?

^^^ Verily I tell ye, Oyakhilome says "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God".

Enjoy https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-704762.0.html

^^^ So what do you want to consider. Be my guest go ahead and consider the consideration that needs considering.

I'd like to point to two things we have to bear in mind.

1. Many urban Nigerians are typically hustlers and often greedy/over-ambitious (possibly lazy but simply opportunistic) hustlers  ---- they will follow anything which brings or is supposed to bring in money. There was a time when cẹlẹ was the in-thing in (south-western?) Nigeria and people were trooping to it like no-one's business all in their quest to "make it". Recently they moved into "NGOs" hoping to attract foreign sponsors. I was at a conference in Naija some time ago where some fool was not ashamed to get up and say "I own an NGO"; mercifully he was shouted down --- possibly by people as bad as him anyway. Witness also, the spate of people losing money to wonder banks and other pyramid schemes.

2. The prosperity "gospel", although it is the very "vomit of satan", is very attractive to lazy, greedy hustlers and even to well meaning but poor thinking aspirational people. On top of which it has the false veneer of respectability of being "spiritual" or being "godly". However, it provides opportunity for the smarter more daring hustler to take advantage of the dumber hustler and also of the poor thinking aspirational people.

Of course a hustler like guyman or fireman or whatever he is called would quickly take advantage of a lucrative scheme where several mumus simply hand over 10% of their income to him every month. The mumus on the other hand think handing over 10% of their income to guyman/fireman is part of their own hustling because they expect it will lead to returns ----- just like investing in wonder banks.

All rather pathetic.

^^^

OK, set out what you would like clarification upon and I'll see how i can help you.

When Joagbaje asked me to quote from the Criminal Code, I said it would fly over his head. Now I think his case is even worse than that: (a) obviously it flew over his head in the first place; and (b) when it was broken down for him (and his lawyer that was taken to school), he chose to bury his head in the sand and to try to 'toughen it out' with inane "jokes"!

Thoroughly shameless!

Another interjection:

It is useful to remind ourselves that the false (and often even dishonest) claim of the evangelical atheists to knowledge of Christian ideas or of the Bible relates only to some general knowledge as well as knowledge of the same set of crammed "difficult Bible passages" that they like to throw around (e.g. passages in Leviticus, 'onanism', 'the bald prophet/bear' etc). They also like to refer to an opinion poll/survey on general knowledge of world religions.

However, when it comes to the truly intellectually rigorous discipline of theology, even the top apostles and bishops of the evangelical atheists are seriously ignorant with some of them being out and out dunces.

This is what one of Britain's top scientists says (not even from a Christian or theist perspective) of even Stephen Hawking: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/martin-rees-we-shouldnt-attach-any-weight-to-what-hawking-says-about-god-2090421.html

He {Lord Rees} is equally scathing about Hawking's more recent comments about there being no need for God in order to explain creation. "Stephen Hawking is a remarkable person whom I've known for 40 years and for that reason any oracular statement he makes gets exaggerated publicity. I know Stephen Hawking well enough to know that he has read very little philosophy and even less theology, so I don't think we should attach any weight to his views on this topic," he said.

And on the false dichotomy between Science and Religion, he observes further:

"I would support peaceful co-existence between religion and science because they concern different domains," Lord Rees said. "Anyone who takes theology seriously knows that it's not a matter of using it to explain things that scientists are mystified by."

. . . and thug ---- or at least the head of thugs.

Heck, I'll include the quote below anyway so that the misguided local evangelical atheists who like to copy and paste Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Huber etc at boring length here thinking they are impressive can maybe begin to see what some of us have been saying effectively about the work of the bishops and apostles of evangelical atheists.

The intellectual frivolousness of the New Atheist literature is by now an open secret. Philosopher and prominent Darwinian Michael Ruse has said that Dawkins’s book made him “ashamed to be an atheist” and that Dennett’s book is “really bad and not worthy of [him].” Another atheist philosopher, Thomas Nagel, has described Dawkins’s “amateur philosophy” as “particularly weak,” and his attempts to counter the philosophical difficulties inherent in his own position “pure hand-waving.” Literary critic Terry Eagleton—yet another atheist, and a Marxist to boot—characterizes Dawkins’ writings on religion as “ill-informed,” “shoddy,” and directed at “vulgar caricatures.” The list of the New Atheists’ fellow intellectuals and even fellow atheists who are critical of their work could easily be extended.

Apart from hubris and their inevitable dishonesty borne of intellectual weakness and deliberate self-blindness borne of rebellion to God, it is unimaginable that any person with an iota of intelligence will raise things like the flying spaghetti monster, unicorns etc in discussion of the existence or otherwise of God - religion or no religion! To the clear thinker, a person who raises such things immediately marks himself out as an utter fool! Unfortunately, the type of evangelical atheists that constitute themselves into nuisance trolls on forums like this are too poor to see this. Anyway, even the people who do their thinking for them - the Dawkins, Dennetts, Harrises etc that they parrot robotically and copy and paste to boring length here - do the same, though for obvious somewhat "more concrete" self-serving reasons.

Anyway, a propos The Courtier's Reply and the Myers Shuffle: http://www.american.com/archive/2010/march/the-new-philistinism

Per Edward Feser

Well, the New Atheists have incorporated this “‘give-it-a-name’ maneuver” into their own rhetorical bag of tricks, and the name they’ve chosen is “The Courtier’s Reply.” The label comes from Dawkins’ fellow biologist and atheist P.Z. Myers, and it refers to an imagined defense a court sycophant might give of the nake.d emperor of Hans Christian Anderson’s famous story: “Haven’t you read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots?” etc. The idea is that complaining about a New Atheist’s lack of theological knowledge is no better than the courtier’s complaint that the nake.d emperor’s critics haven’t read the works of Count Roderigo. In other words, it is just the same old question-begging “Leprechology” and “Pastafarianism” pseudo-defense, now tarted up with a clever marketing tag.

How does it work? Well, suppose you confront a New Atheist with the overwhelming evidence that his “objections” to Aquinas (or whomever) are about as impressive as the fundamentalist’s “chicken/egg” objection to evolution. What’s he going to do? Tell the truth? “Fine, so I don’t know the first thing about Aquinas. But I’m not going to let that stop me from criticizing him! Nyah nyah!” Even for a New Atheist, that has its weaknesses from a PR point of view. But now, courtesy of Myers, he’s got a better response: “Oh dear, oh dear … not the Courtier’s Reply!” followed by some derisive chuckling. One’s intelligent listeners will be baffled, wondering how shouting “Courtier’s Reply!” is supposed to excuse not knowing what one is talking about. And one’s more gullible followers—people like the www.infidels.org faithful {and the Nairaland Union of Evangelical Atheists  } who have been buying up The God Delusion by the bushel basket—will be thrilled to have some new piece of smart-assery to fling at their religious friends in lieu of a serious argument. In the confusion, the New Atheist can slip out the back door before anyone realizes he hasn’t really answered the question. Call it “the Myers Shuffle,” and feel free to fling that label back at the next fool atheist who thinks yelling “Courtier’s Reply!” should be enough to stop you in your tracks.

@Joagbaje

Sorry, I should have added the below to post #201 above.

Well, yes. I asked the lady what was wrong in being poor even if I were poor. The good thing to me was to work hard. They were just talking as if they were not born again. The level of violence in their words was out of this world.

Did the commotion not attract any of their senior people?

The people in suits were their top guys. They were actually pastors in the church. The ones that arrested us were mere security guys but the people in suits, including the lady, were actually the people that make decision.

Joagbajee:
. . . The pastor chris you people potray is a strange one from the one we know. . . .

Maybe you are too blinkered to see what we see!

1. The "pastor" Chris that does the trick of making acolytes "fall" with his shadow ---- is a deceiver!

2. The "pastor" Chris that says "don't pray to or through Jesus Christ" ----- is a false teacher!

3. The "pastor" Chris that says "nowhere in the New Testament are we told to obey God" ---- is a heretic and false teacher!

4. The "pastor" Chris that says he and his followers are "gods" ---- is a false teacher!

5. The "pastor" Chris that says 'non-tithers' are robbing God ---- is a false teacher!

6. The "pastor" Chris that does the slain in spirit/falling under anointing thing ---- is a deceiver!

7. The "pastor" Chris that says don't pray 'Thy will be done' --- is a heretic and false teacher!

Just two things:

1. Seyi Rhodes works for Channel 4 in the UK --- he and his organisation are not the types to be seeking "dash money" from Oyakhilome. So try another lie! 

2. It was not just policemen who beat up Ateba ---  the policemen/soldiers handed Ateba over to Chris Embassy members who then beat the poor chap up. Read the extract below from The Punch  report copy of which is at http://www.nigerianbestforum.com/index.php?topic=22522.0;wap2

In fact, they came in a violent way. I think those guys were policemen or soldiers. Before I knew it, they just grabbed me with my belt and dragged us inside the church building. In fact, they did not mind the traffic. In fact, a car was approaching and could have killed all of us. The photojournalist was angry and he told them that they should not drag us like criminals because we are journalists. They said that we needed to take permission and we said they you should have told us that. In the course of dragging us, the camera of the photo journalist dropped. They picked it up and carried the man into the church. They started beating him, hitting him on the head. They made him to sit on the floor. I told them that a journalist should not be treated that way. They said ok, we should follow them. At that time, they had not touched me. So they took us to the office of the chief security officer of the church. I believe he is a pastor in the church. When I got to the office, I quickly called my News Editor and explained the situation to him. They told me to stop the call. I switched off my phone as they insisted.

There were four men and one lady in the room. They locked the door. They told me to stand behind the office cabinet and face the wall. I asked them why, but one of them hollered, ‘Mr Man, you don’t know where you are. If you say anything silly, we will beat you silly.’ I thought they were joking. For Christ sake, this is a church. I put my hand in my pocket to hold my phone. They just rushed at me and collected the phone. They them removed everything on me, including my I.D card. They pushed me behind the cabinet and insisted they wanted to listen to the photo journalist first. They then started saying all kind of things. They said journalists write rubbish, that they didn’t need my story. They said their pastor had made a name and so did not need my story.

I tried to explain to them that I believed that a church is a public place and that I did not know that I could be subjected to such violence in a church. They asked what I meant by that statement. It was the lady that said so. The lady was the worst person there. She looked at my suit and insulted it. By the way, that was my best suit. I bought that suit for the Diamond Awards for Media Excellence, because I won an award for action photography. That was the suit I wore that day. I bought it two days to the award. It is my best suit for now. But she looked at my suit and said, ‘See your suit, journalist. If you are poor, you should come to this place so that we can give you money.’ I did not know what to say. She got angry and said that if I kept looking at her she would slap me. I was shocked. I mean, a lady behaving this way? Later, they took us to another office. They checked the camera but they did not see anything because we had not taken any shot. Still, they refused to let us go. They started advising us. They told me never to come to Christ Embassy again. I told them that it is a public place because it is a church. They became furious and started giving me all kinds of blow. Then the chief security officer {addendum: believed to be a CE pastor} hit me on the left side of my head. He gave me a blow and I fell to the ground. I was not unconscious, I was just dazed, but I could hear what they were saying. They said I should sit on the floor. I tried to sit down but I fell again. They started laughing. They said maybe I was possessed. They said that was how their pastor used to deliver people at deliverance sessions. They said if I wanted to die, I should die. They said M.K.O Abiola died in this country and nothing happened. They started making jest of my shoes. I bought the shoes with 25 per cent of my salary and they were laughing at it. They said it was poverty that was deceiving me. Ah! They said all kind of things. Meanwhile my editor was trying to call me, but they had confiscated my phone.

Did you see? The policemen/soldiers evidently took Ateba to people who were certainly members and maybe pastor/s of Chris Embassy - who then beat him up!

So it is evident that the thugs included Chris Embassy members and maybe even pastors!

^^^ Alright, and when the matter was brought to Oyakhilome's attention what did he then do about it? Remember that a generator was "sown" to the headquarters!

Similarly, what did Oyakhilome do about his thugs beating up Simon Ateba three years or so ago?

If he did anything, why did his thugs still man-handle and almost beat up Seyi Rhodes recently? What has Oyakhilome done since the Seyi Rhodes incident to prevent his thugs beating up and man-handling innocent people ever again?

Are you not ashamed of a "pastor" associated with such thuggery? Are you not yourself ashamed to be associated with such thuggery as a pastor/member of Chris Embassy?

Remember that both Ateba and Rhodes were acting totally lawfully when taking pictures of Chris Embassy headquarters, a public place, from a public road!

So Oyakhilome's prophecies are fraud then --- if they are generic and random!

Cool!

Why do you lie so much?

Why are you so unashamed in lying?

Prophesying randomly?

Letter specifically to someone who made a notable and noted donation or "seed" is "random"?

Joagbajee:
. . .
Was the money chris oyakhilome s money? Did pastor chris know the man? was he in the branch pastor chris is? .

From http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/2003/24032003/sr10323144038.htm

Chris Oyakhilome, pastor of Christ Embassy Church , Oregun, prophesied in a letter to him {i.e. Agada the thief} that God would do mighty things in his life. “He will cause you to excel and lift you up so high that the world can’t but take notice of you, in Jesus name. Amen.” Agada attracted the prophecy for sowing a seed of a 250 KVA generator valued at N4.4 million to the headquarters of Christ Embassy.

^^^ I mean the way the man, "pastor" Joagbaje,  has no shame just never ceases to amaze!

Is he so daft to realise that every one can see that he is patently lying? I felt it was too obvious --- that's why I didn't bother to comment on his nonsensical claim that I emailed you.

I am literally shaking my head this minute at his shamelessness. 

(edited)

From http://www.newswatchngr.com/editorial/prime/2003/24032003/sr10323144038.htm

“We believe that there is ample evidence to show that the church at the very out-set contributed to, and benefited from, the perpetration of the crime, much of which has been manifested by their determination to keep the proceeds thereof, even in the face of a confession by Mr. Agada to the crime. We thus appeal to you to use your best endeavours to investigate the case and recover our money,” Imonivwerha wrote in his petition to police.

Joagbajee:
Enigma didn't want to face the Shame. So he hid under the tables and started emailing venom vomiting "christian"? doctor
Today seem to be a bad day for their evil vices .

Are you also going to deny that your man is a thug - or at least the head of thugs?  

Ọmọlẹhin tọọgi lasan lasan!

Azibalua:
@ enigma
Which ministry are you submitted to
You seem to be running away from this question or are you a free lancer?

You know my requirement for answering the question now! 

It's very simple --- just tell me where Oyakhilome got his "PhD" from and I'll tell you about the "ministry I'm submitted to". 

Barr rich:
Aletheia,

I don't know if what you're quoting is from outside the laws of Nigeria, and also the authorities you are citing are authorities that not within the knowledge of the DPP. Who hired you or who are you holding brief for on this platform. If you think there is an offence and you really want to prosecute the matter, you can apply for a fiat from the Attorney General of Lagos State or go to court to seek an order of mandamus compelling the Attorney General to prosecute.
I have already outlined for you the procedure for criminal investigation down to conviction, but you are ignoring what is there to quote sections and authorities to prove what here?
I only outline those  procedures for you thinking you people are really genuinely displaying ignorance, but I am constrained to submit that your verbiage is only here to create uneccesary hate towards a particular minister. I have already said that this is not a law court where a person is tried for any alleged offence, go to cout. Thank you.

You, a "lawyer", have just been taken to school and thoroughly schooled by a non-lawyer; a non-lawyer but an intelligent person. Yet you are still fulminating nonsense.

What is the rate of offences committed that are prosecuted? Do the actions outlined not fit within the definition of the offence of "receiving" as defined in the Criminal Code --- whether or not the perpetrator(s) have been prosecuted?

So when someone short-changes you on the street --- it is not an offence within the Criminal Code until the person is prosecuted?

Yes, the person is presumed innocent until proven guilty - we accept that. At the same time, there is a distinction between a convicted criminal and a factual criminal.

What needs to be established on this thread is whether the actions being described fall within the provisions of the Criminal Code ---- and they do quite clearly.