₦airaland Forum

^^^ Don't mind the thieves! They say that what Jesus said in Matthew 24 does not apply to the church; but the same thieves say that what He said in Matthew 23:23 to the Pharisees is applicable ----- especially that He did not denounce tithing.

These people have no integrity; what they rely on and what they are living on is that there are enough fools or gullible or misguided people who will believe any nonsense that they say. It is 'paining' them that they are being exposed as intellectually and spiritually bankrupt before more discerning people and that they do not have the respect of some people who they want to feel "amongst".

Many happy returns.

Joagbaje:
. . .

all these are new testament quotes. Men were called righteous ,by deed in the old testament. Abel was righteous, lot was ,David and all the ggod guys.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. . . .

He says people were declared righteous by "deed"; yet he quotes a passage that places faith at the root of the declaration of righteousness. That faith is the most important element that whatever the individual did (Abel offering a 'decent' sacrifice) is pretty clar from reading Hebrews 11. For every person mentioned, the passage always starts by faith: "By faith Abel . . . . By faith Enoch . . .  By faith Noah . . . . By faith Abraham etc etc"

I think we need to bear in mind what Joagbaje thinks of Jesus and that his views on Jesus is what is underlying his obtuseness to accept that the same Jesus is the saviour and the author of the salvation of even Old Testament folk.

For Joagbaje

- Jesus was [b]just a man [/b]until he "received" the "holy spirit": the Bible teaches however that Jesus IS the lamb of God slain even before the foundation of the world. Of course since he was slain before the world began, there is no difficulty as such in understanding that this same Jesus is the cause/source of everyone's righteousness whether they were born before or after his physical crucifixion.

- Jesus himself was "born again": The Bible teaches no such thing! Only word of faith Bible twisters, some with a satanic agenda, teach the nonsense: but because Joagbaje believes that even Jesus was born again, he believes Jesus was the first to be "born again"; therefore, no one could have been "born again" before Jesus died. He of course distinguishes between being "born again" and being "saved"  or being declared "righteous" as though they were things completely alien of one another.

One could go on about other things that Joagbaje believes about Jesus that similarly inform his obtuseness but really sometimes you just leave him to his ways.

Kgdavid:
how do you propose God's word should travel from Nigeria to pakistan from example? by boat??

Please point to one Nigerian "MOG" with a private jet who has travelled to Pakistan in that jet! (Or maybe any single one out of Mali, Mauritania, Egypt?)

Come to think of it, tell us which one of the big name "MOGs" (whether with a private jet or not) has gone to any single one out of Mali, Benin Republic, Togo, Mauretania, Swaziland, Lesotho to evangelise?

Or, if you like, please tell us the countries that the big name "MOGs" (whether with a private jet or not) usually go to evangelise!

In New Zealand, apparently.


If flash disabled, link here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE


[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE[/flash]

Joagbaje:
They are quoting from Malachi of course , it's in the bible. It is not a manipulative issue, that's based on their understanding of that passage. Tithing caries a grace, prayer carries a grace.study ,worship and Every act of obedience carries grace . So when you don't pray , you miss out of the grace it manifests. Same things goes for tithing and offering. We don't rob God , we rob ourselves rather if we don't give.

But Oyaks your boss says those who don't pay tithes are robbing God!

Heretics praying for other people's "doctrinal amendment"! What will we not see?

Anyway, our Ọga talk am say they will go long distances to make a proselyte and turn him into twice the child of hell as themselves. 'Nuff said!

Interesting discussion.

@debosky

I take the points you are making but I have the following questions.

Would you say that the New Testament supports slavery?

What about Christianity, would you say that Christianity supports slavery?

Is a distinction to be made between ancient forms of slavery and the more modern slave trade (e.g. to Europe and Americas of Africans) --- granted that both involve unacceptable cruelty?

Also, there are many things (a lot cruel and barbaric) in the Old Testament that were not explicitly repudiated in the New Testament, would we say those are still part of or acceptable in Christianity.

^^^ Are you minding him? It is like an ostrich burying in it head in the sand in which case its backside is exposed as a ready target.

Again we have shown him all the below before but of course he claims to know better than Matthew's gospel!

Jesus' words in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus' words in Luke 13:28

. . .  when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God . . .

Jesus' words Matthew 8:11*

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

*Note: Matthew uses "heaven" probably because of Jewish sensibilities about using the name of God  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_God

We have pointed out the below to Joagbaje before but obviously he will prefer to find a way to avoid the implication of the following two passages.

Jesus' words in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus' words in Luke 13:28

. . .  when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God . . .

@newmi

Since Joagbaje has not so far answered Olaadegbu's questions in post 375, I am interested to hear your views if you are willing to share them?

Do you also agree that Jesus died spiritually? Did Jesus suffer in "hell" where He was tortured by satan and demons?

^^^ Didn't realise that, lol; God bless and keep you bros.

Thanks sis, God bless and keep you.

You are still afraid to disagree with Oyaks publicly? I pray that you be freed from the bondage one day and turn to the true teachings of Christ and His apostles ---- who confidently prayed through Christ. 

Oh by the way - my prayer is made through Jesus Christ and through the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

^^^ So do you still agree with Oyakhilome that Christians should not pray through Jesus?

While it seems Joagbaje and newmi have gone AWOL, let us deal with a technical issue (in fact first raised by Joagbaje) concerning the word "by".

Let us look at 1 Peter 2:5

KJV

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

NKJV

you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

NIV

you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

NLT

And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God.

OK and in fact I will not make any comment on the above; however I would ask the honest enquirer to follow the link below to learn more about "by" and "through".

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1223&t=KJV

newmi

Well, I'm glad to read the above; but you know you never did answer my question even after you invited it! Also remember you were defending the author saying "don't pray through Christ". He said

Hence we don’t pray to the Father through Jesus, but in the Name of Jesus. To pray through Jesus is to make Him a medium or intermediary to the Father, and that’s wrong.

In that event, would you like to compare what the author said there with the prayer below from the book of Hebrews?

Hebrews 13

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Would you say that the writer of Hebrews who prayed through Jesus Christ is wrong and Oyakhilome is right?

Zikkyy:
Joagbaje now believes he is 'him' (Christ). Jo and his people have taken the doctrine of trinity to another level; membership have been extended to include Jo & co. now we have multiple persons in one God

Actually, thinking about the line above again and considering a few other things that Joagbaje has said, I would suggest that Joagbaje will soon be interceding for Christ himself.

As Joagbaje said: Christ is now only interceding for Christians and is not an intermediary; Christians are equal with Christ; Christ himself was "born again" (:spit and in the same way as Joagbaje; Christ and Joagbaje are brothers (and yes I am familiar with "I have called you brethren"; Joagbaje and Oyaks now stand in Christ stead (sic) i.e. they now replace Christ etc etc etc ad nauseam

If that is the case and if Christ can intercede for Joagbaje and Oyaks, why also can Joagbaje and Oyaks not intercede for Christ? Afterall they are all equals?

Image123:
But if we can do all things through Christ, why can't we pray through Christ.

I wonder! Is giving thanks to God through Christ not praying through Christ?

Romans 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

Romans 7: 24, 25 "Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

What about giving thanks to God for victory through Jesus?

1 Corinthians 15:57 "But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Image123:
. . . but why do we exert so much on nothing. Don't think God is as interested in our lexis and semantics as He is in faith and the fervent prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man. All our name calling and twistings do not further God's work but self.

1. Unfortunately it is not "nothing"! Experience teaches that those who say the kind of things in the piece in the opening post are working a different agenda which is to drag Jesus down and turn people away from "remaining in Him"!

2. Indeed the fervent prayer of the righteous availeth much and as long as we are in Him and He in us we should not allow any one to deceive us that our prayers will not be heard when we pray through Jesus or even through Jesus' name. As we are taught even when we do not know what to pray for or even how, we still have help!

Romans 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

The last few posts help to prompt us in the direction of an explanation. We can go into further detail later but here/now a brief summary.

There are two important principles or two important parts of this issue.

1. Christ in us ----- He indeed gives us power and authority to do various things including approaching the throne of God

2. Us in Christ ---- arguably even more important than 1 above; thus whatever we do pursuant to 1 above only has effect because of this most important no 2. Because we do it in Christ, because when we do it in Christ we do it through Christ, and God answers because of Christ and for Christ's sake.

So Christians should confidently pray in Christ's name, through the name of Christ, through Christ, expect an answer from God for Christ's sake or because of Christ.

All of the above with one important qualification which the likes of the author prefer to ignore: we get the results if we do/pray etc in accordance with the will of God/Jesus.

EDIT from John 15

4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

^^^ Whatever twist you may wish to put to this, the author's own words condemn him as an idiotic and dumbass spreader of an anti-Christ message.

@ Joagbaje

Post #72; you will see someone praying through Christ Jesus

Whereas this is what the dumbass author said in your opening post

As Christians, we don’t need an intermediary between us and the Father. Hence we don’t pray to the Father through Jesus, but in the Name of Jesus. To pray through Jesus is to make Him a medium or intermediary to the Father, and that’s wrong. But to pray in the Name of Jesus means your standing in the place of Jesus; you’ve become His voice!

All through the Scriptures, there’s no place where the Christian is asked to pray to Jesus or through Jesus. Neither do you ask the Father to grant your request for “Jesus’ sake,” for God wouldn’t answer your prayers for Jesus’ sake. He loves you as much as He loves Jesus. So when you pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus, it’s as though Jesus Himself were praying, because you stand in His stead.

So you see the dumbass author didn't just say don't pray through Jesus' name! He said don't pray through Jesus.

Joagbaje:
Enigma you are being evasive . Are you saying it is scriptural to pray through the NAME of Jesus .What is the scriptural reference.

If posts #72 and #75 are not clear enough for you, then may Almighty God help you.

^^^Look, just keep out of my way this morning.

OK, look at #77 again then.

^^ I have already answered your question, mate; read post #72 and #75!

(Edited: I got the post numbers wrong initially)

Oh by the way and in case someone is still asking for an example of who prayed TO Jesus, well

Acts 7

59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Oh it is no longer "through the christ-life in you" but now "through the christ in you":

So you see, I notice the edit: OK what is the difference between the two then?

How did I know you will try the side-step. No don't keep on that chicanery, try the below instead.

Romans 16:27

To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Phillipians 4:7

And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Phillipians 4:13

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Are you sure that the author of the opening piece who you are defending and following blindly is genuinely and truly a believer in Christ?

@Joagbaje

I asked you: can we give glory to the Father God through Jesus Christ or not?

^^^ Thank you very much 

At least I am not a dumbass anti-Christ like Oyakhilome. As long as I am not anti-Christ, I'm doing fine thank you. 

So it has already come to "play the version/translation card" again?

Even sticking to your own translation your English is so poor that you don't know that "in him" also means "through him"?

It really is important that you take those English classes.

Actually a question for you: if we want to give glory to God do we do it directly or can we do it through Jesus Christ?