₦airaland Forum

bee444:
That's why the Queen of England is honoured and worshipped just like Mary. And why call Mary the mother of God? Now I understand, at least no one as ever said she's the mother of the Almighty GOD. Now, the difference, Jesus is god over the Church while GOD is the maker of Jesus and you and I.

I am a god over my enemies and a god over all things that GOD has put under my control. "ye are gods and all of you are the children of the most high, " Jesus never claimed to be God Almighty, but was in a nature of God and thought it robbery to compare himself as God (Philippians 2:6). The Bible says we were created out of God's image and likeness, and if so, we posses the true nature of that God. Jesus was sent by God to fulfil a mission, period.

I'm afraid you are seriously misinformed on the Christian faith and even Christian basics.

Starting with the bit I highlighted in red, can you show us where the Bible says or even remotely suggests that "God is the maker of Jesus". By the way, to help you deal with this ignorance, quoted below is part of the confession of the historic church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_versions_of_the_Nicene_Creed_in_current_use

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,

Regarding the bit in your post that I highlighted in purple, you claim to be "god" quoting Psalm 82:6, why not go on to the next verse Psalm 82:7 and the rest of the Psalm 82 to see that reproach, and arguably a curse, was placed on the so-called "gods".

You claim to be a "god" and in the same and other posts you claim Jesus is not God; is Jesus also one of the "gods" or indeed you are higher than Jesus if Jesus is neither a "god" nor God? In any event, there are many places where you will see clearly enough that Jesus is God ---- only if you open your eyes wide enough! For one example, read the below from Mark 2:

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

You have a big heart Joagbaje and I truly appreciate that.

Trust me, I have no intention to nail you. My intention is to cause you to re-examine your current beliefs. If all you do is go back and sit down, take some time to think things through thoroughly, I think that would be enough. However, what would give me the greatest joy is for you to see that WoF theology, for the sake of appealing to the flesh (e.g. the claim that you are superior to Moses, Elijah etc) stretches or twists biblical truth into error or even heresy. In my view, that is where you are but I pray that by God's grace you will come back into the truth.

My brother, trust me that we have nothing to gain from challenging WoF theology for the sake of it; or for castigating Oyakhilome and the rest of them just for the sake of it. We HONESTLY believe that they are leading well intentioned people astray into error and heresy!

If this thread/discussion stops right here, I'm happy enough with it.

God bless.

Enitan bros

Actually, I do have a lot of the "typical characteristics" associated with pisceans; however, having known the Greatest of all, the Name above all names, for a long time and added together my own personal "mystical" experience with Him, I have something far greater than a mere "mystical nature".

Hebrews 2:3

. . . how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him

ogajim:
. . .
Nigeria has changed, the Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists, etc brought free or subsidized education, health care, and other social services to the communities they ministered to but these days the new age churches of Nigeria are busy opening universities most of their members can't afford to send their children, for profit companies and what have you with only the naive left to defend such. There are STRICT laws that govern such around here so don't blame me for not being aware of "business churches" if such exists. . . .

CHARLOE: God bless you my brother, we can't allow the misinformation to continue unchallenged or we too will be failing in our Christian obligation to LOVE one another and SHARE with one another.

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (EDIT) Notice also the word "ministered" which the modern charlatans have now bastardised!

CHARLOE:
i now understand why one so-called rev king could pour fuel on some of his (hypnotized) members, and _{[/sub]while they were still on their knees begging[sub]} struck a match and burnt them alive! And i tell u, if one had not died, u'd still see pple here comparing him to prophet Elijah and saying 'touch not my annointed'! _{[/sub]sickening![sub]}

Bros, I don't think you know how totally accurate this your statement is. When I'm in Naija I often hang around with friends in Ajao Estate and "Reverend" King's "church" is (was?) very nearby! Sometimes "Rev" King would drive on my friend's street; would you believe that when his (actually then rackety) truck drove by, his ("hypnotized" members who were on the street would start prostrating and kneeling down until the car eventually drove out of sight? Also, these ("hypnotized" members went about carrying his photo on a badge/ID card around their necks all the time; some of them wore clothes with his picture in big print on it; some of the male chaps grew long beards like him!!!!

Now, in honesty I don't know "Rev" King's doctrine but I can imagine that it is/was a form of the prosperity "gospel". Nonetheless, you saw his hypnotized members and you felt sorry for them as their poverty was clearly evident; some apparently 'trecked' long distances to be at the meetings; as they trooped home after meetings see some of them during "rushing" and fighting for danfos and those molue-lite buses!

The human brain/mind is an incredible thing ------ capable of the highest profundity but also capable of the lowest absurdity!

The central issue raised by the video boils down to one thing: does the science point to a creator behind creation or not?

What I see is a lot of effort to run away from that with all manner of digression. Even everyday things that we take for granted will indicate intelligence behind creation, which cannot be explained purely by natural selection. Clench and unclench your fist or twist your hand on your arm. Imagine the complexity involved in even those simple "machinery" and ask yourself if that could have been achieved randomly without an intelligent design behind it.

Yep, Joagbaje does have some fair points; in particular, that in a sense the kingdom of God is in "two parts" i.e. on one hand we are in it now but the "full" kingdom of God is yet to come. However, that claimed "superiority" to everyone including Moses and Elijah, who were at the transfiguration with Jesus Christ Himself, is plain silly and deserving of contempt and I will not hesitate to let him have it if he goes there again.

"Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of heaven" are used interchangeably. Even common Wikipedia gives a good enough explanation: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_God

Joagbaje:
Enigma.
Concerning your question, I have pondered to know the best approach to it to avoid escalating controversy,  I had said earlier that the the Kindom has 2 parts , The now, and  the world to come.

There is a difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:3
   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[color=#990000]Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. [/color]

Joagbaje

Thanks for the effort, I honestly appreciate it. Back to the issue at hand, you felt into a trap that I thought you had spotted. Here, let's try again:

Jesus' words in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus' words in Luke 13:28

. . .  when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God . . .

Do you want to try again?

mabell:
. . .
@Enigma

the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

In addition to my first reply above: we have made clear that Old Testament saints were born again.

In fact the challenge still remains for Joagbaje (and you or any of his supporters):

How can Abraham be in or enter the kingdom of God, if he was not born again, when Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God?

mabell:
. . .
@Enigma

the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

@mabell

If you notice, my tone to Joagbaje on this point was soft and gentle. Nevertheless, I made it clear that I believe that Joagbaje was not wholly accurate. Consider the following:

Gen 41:38

And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

Exodus 31

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:

3And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Deuteronomy 34

And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 27:18

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him

Isaiah 63 (speaking of Moses)

11Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

13That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

14As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

I hope you can see the difference now? These are men that Jooagbaje says were "dead" and could not have the filling or indwelling of the Spirit; the Bible clearly contradicts Joagbaje on the point.

@ D.A.V.E.

Read the below from Mark 2:

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

First of all we should distinguish between two works of the Spirit. The first is regeneration -- which everyone needs to be "born again".  The second is indwelling of the Spirit ---- which is empowerment to live a spiritual life and for the work to which the Church as a whole is called. {There are obviously other works of the Holy Spirit}

So our focus is on indwelling: my understanding is that because of Pentecost, which had been previously promised in Joel and elsewhere in the Old Testament, the indwelling of the Spirit in the Christian is permanent. The Spirit is always in you. However, that the Spirit is in one does not mean that person cannot choose to ignore Him; that the Spirit is in one does not mean that person cannot choose to be carnal! An example of this is found in Paul's scolding in 1 Corinthians 3: Read him in verses 3 & 4

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

, then compare him in verse 16

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

So what we have is a (constant) war of two natures, the old sin nature (the flesh) and the new spiritual man. See Galatians 5

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Additionally, the war between the two natures is why the epistles repeatedly enjoins "be ye filled with the Spirit"; many experts interprete this something like "keep being filled with the Spirit" or "be continually filled with the Spirit" because of the verb form used in the original language/manuscripts.

Caution: what I have expressed is my own understanding and I will not be totally dogmatic on it. However, there are far more learned people who take a similar stance such as R C Sproul in the piece I quoted in post 238 above.

ETA this link for records' sake: http://bible.org/seriespage/putting-pentecost-perspective-part-1-holy-spirit-old-testament-acts-21-13

Pastor Joagbaje, nice to see you back!

First of all you have an unfulfilled promise as below:

Enigma:
Until you deal with Jesus' words about a person has to be born again to be in God's kingdom and that people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom, nothing you have to say is worth thinking about.

Joagbaje:
Enigma,

I didnt get to see the post earlier. Abraham and the father's of faith are in the kingdom . I will respond in a moment

Sooooo, we are waiting eagerly!


Secondly, regarding this your statement:

Joagbaje:
Because of the nature of sin in man's spirit, They could not contain the holyghost is their dead spirit. The holyghost could only come on them, but not dwelling in their spirits like ours.

If you rethink and refine it a little bit then you will hit the truth. Compare the statement below to your own for example:

From: http://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-Old-Testament.html

The second aspect of the Spirit’s work in the Old Testament is indwelling, or filling. Here is where the major difference between the Spirit’s roles in the Old and New Testaments is apparent. The New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). When we place our faith in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament people as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and even Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various Judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. What we can discern from this is that the Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. We also see that the indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David) and that if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., Saul in 1 Samuel 16:14). Finally, the Spirit “coming upon” an individual doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (e.g., Saul, Samson, and many of the Judges). So while in the New Testament the Spirit only indwells believers and that indwelling is permanent, the Spirit indwelled certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task, irrespective of their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person.

We may not necessarily agree with everything in the quote but overall I believe that it is more accurate than your statement.

Yep, I noticed that too!

Come back Joagbaje, we love you really!!!

In the interest of making peace with the WoFers and for the education of all of us, here is a useful piece. Obviously we can agree or disagree with parts or all of it according to our own understanding.

The Holy Spirit: Old Testament and Today by R. C. Sproul

The Holy Spirit: Old Testament and Today by R. C. Sproul

What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not principally different from the role of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament. While there are some differences, there's an essential unity between the two Testaments.

The Holy Spirit was active in many ways in Old Testament times. First and foremost was the Trinity's part of the work of
creation. In the act of creation itself, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit were all involved. The Spirit brooded over the
water and brought order and structure out of the yet unordered universe that we find in the opening chapters of Genesis.
People were regenerated in the Old Testament just as they are regenerated in the New Testament, and the one cannot
be regenerated except through the influence of God the Holy Spirit. David needed the regeneration power of God just as
much as the apostle Paul needed it in the New Testament.

We also know that the Spirit was very active charismatically; that is, by gifting certain people in the Old Testament and
equipping them for specific tasks. For example, the king of Israel was anointed with oil, symbolizing his being anointed by
the Holy Spirit to be empowered to carry out his vocation in a godly way. The same was true of priests. The prophets of
Israel, who were agents of revelation, were inspired by God the Holy Spirit and equipped to be the messengers of God to
the people and to give us sacred Scripture in the same basic manner that the apostles in the New Testament were so
endowed and superintended by the Holy Spirit. So we see that the Spirit was active -- regenerating, sanctifying,
preserving, interceding for -- doing all of those things in the Old Testament that he does in the New Testament.

[b]What's the difference? In the Old Testament book of Numbers, when Moses was complaining because the burden of
leading all the people had become so weighty it was about to crush him, he pled for relief from God. God told him to
gather seventy of the elders of Israel in order to take from the Spirit that was upon Moses and distribute it to the seventy
so they could help him lead the people of Israel. That's exactly what the text said happened. God then gave this
charismatic empowering, this special gift, to seventy other people, not just Moses, so that they could all participate in
ministry. That was not regeneration or sanctification, it was an empowering for ministry given only to select individuals.
Moses' prayer was, 'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num.
11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the pen of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's
exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that
Joel was writing, that now the Spirit to empower the church for ministry is given to everybody, not just to the leaders.[/b]

In Galatians 5, Paul makes the statement: 'Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.' It sounds
so simple, but what does it actually mean?

Whenever you see spirit and flesh set side by side in a passage ('the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak' or 'the spirit wars
against the flesh,' as Paul says here), we're talking about, not the warfare between the physical body of man and his internal,
mental, or spiritual inclinations, but rather the conflict that every Christian experiences between his old nature -- his fallen nature,
which is corrupt and is filled with desires that are not pleasing to God - and the new nature within him that has been brought to pass
by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

Now, life becomes complicated once we are renewed by the Holy Spirit (when we become a Christian); now we have two
principles at war within ourselves: the old inclinations and the new inclinations. The old inclination is against God, and the
new inclination is to obey God and to do that which is pleasing to him. In this Galatians passage, Paul discussed the
ongoing battle that all Christians experience. He admonishes us at one point and says, 'Follow the new principle, follow
the new spirit, not the old pattern that was characteristic of your original state of fallenness.' He's not saying that your
physical body is at war with your soul, but that your natural inclinations are at war with the transformation toward which
the Holy Spirit is constantly moving you as a child of God. And that does involve a decision and an act of the will.

Thanks zikky (and nuclearboy)

Honestly, I just felt so moved reading that sermon again this morning that I thought to share it. Even if all it does is inspire once again those who already understand and appreciate 2 Cor. 8:9 that would be more than enough.

Cheers guys

^^^ Final Extract

That, however, is not the point to which we wish to bring you, just now; the point is this, the reason why Christ died was, "that we through his poverty might be rich." He became poor from his riches, that our poverty might become rich out of his poverty. Brethren, we have now a joyful theme before us—those who are partakers of the Saviour's blood are rich. All those for whom the Saviour died, having believed in his name and given themselves to him, are this day rich. And yet I have some of you here who can not call a foot of land your own. You have nothing to call your own to-day, you know not how you will be supported through another week; you are poor, and yet if you be a child of God, I do know that Christ's end is answered in you; you are rich. No, I did not mock you when I said you were rich: I did not taunt you—you are. You are really rich; you are rich in possessions; you have in your possession now things more costly than gems, more valuable than gold and silver. Silver and gold, have I none, thou mayest say; but if thou canst say afterward, "Christ is all," thou hast outspoken all that the man can say who had piles of gold and silver. "But," thou sayest, "I have nothing." Man, thou hast all things.

Knowest thou not what Paul said? He declares that "things present and things to come, and this world, and life and death, all are yours and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's." The great machinery of providence has no wheel which does not revolve for you. The great economy of grace with all its fullness, is yours. Remember that adoption, justification, sanctification, all are yours. Thou hast everything that heart can wish in spiritual things; and thou hast everything that is necessary for this life; for you know who hath said, "having food and raiment, let us therewith be content." You are rich; rich with true riches, and not with the riches of a dream. There are times when men by night do scrape gold and silver together, like shells upon the sea shore; but when they wake in the morning they find themselves penniless. But, yours are everlasting treasures; yours are solid riches. When the son of eternity shall have melted the rich man's gold away, yours shall endure.

A rich man has a cistern full of riches, but a poor saint has got a fountain of mercy, and he is the richest who has a fountain. Now, if my neighbor be a rich man, he may have as much wealth as ever he pleases, it is only a cistern full, it will soon be exhausted; but a Christian has a fountain that ever flows, and let him draw, draw on forever, the fountain will still keep on flowing.

^^^ More from the same place:

"For your sake he became poor." Brethren, take the word home, and see if it does not melt you—"Though he was rich, yet for my sake he became poor." Beg for the influences of the Spirit upon that truth, and it will make your heart devout and your spirit loving—"I the chief of sinners am, yet for my sake he died."

Come, let me hear you speak; let us bring the sinner here, and let him soliloquize—"I cursed him, I blasphemed, and yet for my sake he was made poor; I scoffed at his ministers, I broke his Sabbath, yet for my sake was he made poor. What! Jesus, couldst thou die for one who was not worth thy having? Couldst thou shed thy blood for one who would have shed thy blood, if it had been in his power? What! couldst thou die for one so worthless, so vile?" "Yes, yes," says Jesus, "I shed that blood for thee." Now let the saint speak: "I," he may say, "have professed to love him, but how cold my love, how little have I served him! How far have I lived from him; I have not had sweet communion with him as I ought to have had. When have I been spending and spent in his service? And yet, my Lord thou dost say, 'for thy sake I was made poor.'" "Yes," saith Jesus, "see me in my miseries; see me in my agonies; see me in my death—all these I suffered for thy sake." Wilt thou not love him who loved thee to this great excess, and[u] became poor for thy sake[/u]?

Charles Haddon Spurgeon on 2 Cor8:9 (Informed people would know who Spurgeon was)

Full thing can be found Here:

And now wonder, ye angels, the Infinite has become an infant; he, upon whose shoulders the universe doth hang, hangs at his mothers bosom; he who created all things, and bears up the pillars of creation, hath now become so weak that he must be carried by a woman! And oh, wonder, ye that knew him in his riches, whilst ye admire his poverty! Where sleeps the new-born King? Had he the best room in Caesar's palace? hath a cradle of gold been prepared for him, and pillows of down, on which to rest his head? No, where the ox fed, in the dilapidated stable, in the manger, there the Saviour lies, swathed in the swaddling bands of the children of poverty! Nor there doth he rest long; on a sudden his mother must carry him to Egypt; he goeth there, and becometh a stranger in a strange land. When he comes back, see him that made the worlds handle the hammer and the nails, assisting his father in the trade of a carpenter! Mark him who has put the stars on high, and made them glisten in the night; mark him without one star of glory upon his brow—a simple child, as other children.

Yet, leave for a while the scenes of his childhood and his earlier life; see him when he becomes a man, and now ye may say, indeed, that for our sakes he did become poor. Never was there a poorer man than Christ; he was the prince of poverty. He was the reverse of Croesus—he might be on the top of the hill of riches, Christ stood in the lowest vale of poverty. Look at his dress, it is woven from the top through out, the garment of the poor! As for his food, he oftentimes did hunger; and always was dependent upon the charity of others for the relief of his wants! He who scattered the harvest o'er the broad acres of the world, had not sometimes wherewithal to stay the pangs of hunger? He who digged the springs of the ocean, sat upon a well and said to a Samaritan woman, "Give me to drink!" He rode in no chariot, he walked his weary way, foot sore, o'er the flints of Galilee! He had not where to lay his head. He looked upon the fox as it hurried to its burrow, and the fowl as it went to its resting-place, and he said, "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but I, the Son of man, have not where to lay my head." He who had once been waited on by angels, becomes the servant of servants, takes a towel, girds himself, and washes his disciples' feet! He who was once honored with the hallelujahs of ages, is now spit upon and despised! He who was loved by his Father, and had abundance of the wealth of affection, could say, "He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me." Oh, for words to picture the humiliation of Christ!

What leagues of distance between him that sat upon the throne, and him that died upon the cross! Oh, who can tell the mighty chasm between yon heights of glory, and the cross of deepest woe! Trace him, Christian, he has left thee his manger to show thee how God came down to man. He hath bequeathed thee his cross to show thee how man can ascend to God. Follow him, follow him, all his journey through; begin with him in the wilderness of temptation, see him fasting there, and hungering with the wild beasts around him; trace him along his weary way, as the Man of Sorrows, and acquainted with grief. He is the byword of the drunkard, he is the song of the scorner, and he is hooted at by the malicious; see him as they point their finger at him, and call him "drunken man and wine-bibber!" Follow him along his via dolorosa, until at last you meet him among the olives of Gethsemane; see him sweating great drops of blood! Follow him to the pavement of Gabbatha; see him pouring out rivers of gore beneath the cruel whips of Roman soldiers! With weeping eye follow him to the cross of Calvary, see him nailed there! Mark his poverty, so poor that they have stripped him unclothed from head to foot, and exposed him to the face of the sun! So poor, that when he asked them for water they gave him vinegar to drink! So poor that his unpillowed head is girt with thorns in death! Oh, Son of Man, I know not which to admire most, thine height of glory, or thy depths of misery! Oh, Man, slain for us, shall we not exalt thee? God over all, blessed for ever, shall we not give thee the loudest song? "He was rich, yet for our sakes he became poor."

If I had a tale to tell you this day, of some king, who, out of love to some fair maiden, left his kingdom and became a peasant like herself, ye would stand and wonder, and would listen to the charming tale; but when I tell of God concealing his dignity to become our Saviour, our hearts are scarcely touched. Ah, my friends, we know the tale so well, we have heard it so often; and, alas, some of us tell it so badly that we cannot expect that you would be as interested in it as the subject doth demand. But surely, as it is said of some great works of architecture, that though they be seen every morning, there is always something fresh to wonder at; so we may say of Christ, that though we saw him every day, we should always see fresh reason to love, and wonder, and adore. "He was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor."

@debosky

Just to pick up on a few points from your last two posts:

1. I appreciate you did not direct the related points to me but I doubt you will find anyone here who says being a Christian means you should be poor. If you can find even one, I will apologise to you here publicly.

2. Regarding Joseph of Arimathea: ok he was rich ---- but could you point to (a) when he became acquainted with Jesus, (b) how close he was to Jesus before the crucifixion and (c) what else he ever gave to Jesus except for the tomb? Secondly, that Jesus had to "borrow" someone's tomb at his death -- does that not indicate that he and his family probably didn't have their own tomb --- and therefore probably was poor?

3. Regarding your post to davidylan: so how many people IN THIS PRESENT TIME have ever received a hundredfold wives? a hundredfold children? a hundredfold brethren? a hundredfold houses? a hundredfold parents?  See? We can all play that game --- which is why we shouldn't be playing the game but should be seeking to make the most truthful meaning of scripture.

debosky:
I'd like you to answer the question; can you shed more light on the verse you highlighted?

The passage in question is 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

This passage comes in the background that the apostle Paul was exhorting the Corinthian Christians to make a collection for other poor Christians. So in one sense the passage was concerned about material things; some will abuse this aspect but I will leave those for now.

Paul makes his case with on why the Corinthians should give to the poor fellow saints liberally with several arguments. First he told them that Macedonian Christians who were even poorer than the Corinthians had given generously even amidst their own great trial of affliction and deep poverty. So your pastor comes to you and say Brother X needs money badly for an operation, the saints have been donating generously; little brother John who is a student gave generously of his allowance; how much you that you have a big job and income.

Paul's second argument was more powerful. He says as Christians, you should be generous to your poor fellow saints because you yourselves have received a generosity beyond measure. The generosity you have received is from Jesus Christ; this generosity is that for your sake Jesus' who was "rich" became "poor" that you might be "rich".

A. Jesus was "rich" ----- where and when? Well Jesus came from heaven, the throne of God did He not? Have you heard of "riches in glory"? Can you compare any earthly riches with that? The wealth of the Lagos state, Nigeria, Africa, the World all combined ------ can they match that? That is where and when Jesus was rich!

B. Jesus became poor ----- where and when? In leaving the throne of heaven to come to earth alone He became poor. Secondly He chose to be born into a poor background and family as we have already shown.    

C. That you might become "rich"? ----- This refers to the "riches of glory" that awaits the believer in the coming kingdom of God! Not to earthly, material riches. Otherwise why was a collection being taken for the poor Christians? Why did Paul describe the Macedonian Christians as in "deep poverty"?

OK back to Paul's argument: his point here is that you for whom Christ became poor that you might be rich (riches in glory incomparable to material riches), you should show gratitude by being generous with your material possessions. You who have received spiritual riches should not be stingy with material things.

 

debosky:
As I've already stated, all I am concerned with is that he was able to meet his needs while on earth.

Of course He had His needs met. A lot of people who have their "needs" met today are not rich by any means! How does one have his needs met, biblically, anyway? Have you come across 1 Tim 6? Have a read and see what it means to have your needs met; you will also see that that passage which shows how to have your needs met warns seriously about pursuing material riches. What is the point here? Having your needs met is not the same as being rich!

debosky:
Saying Jesus was rich or Jesus was poor is not really here nor there - he had rich followers one of whom owned an expensive tomb, he had Christians after him who were wealthy and used their wealth to support the ministry.

So? That meant He was rich? And when did the owner of the tomb come on the scene from what we are told in the Bible?

debosky:
So if the aim is to find a means to say Christians are not meant to be wealthy by reference to Jesus' state on earth, there is evidence right in the bible that defeats that notion.

I'm disappointed by this line; who here has suggested that anyone should be poor? On this forum, people have repeatedly said that Christianity is not particularly relevant to whether a person is rich or not! Read Philemon. Philemon was a Christian, rich and the slave owner of Onesimus. Onesimus was a Christian, poor and the slave of Onesimus Philemon.

debosky:
Secondly, if Jesus was indeed 'poor', it serves to indicate that we should be rich because for our sake he became poor or does it not?  

Again another disappointing line; anyway, I have dealt with this at length above.

debosky:
Once we begin to try to define the societal level he belonged to, the extent or otherwise of his finances, we begin to get  bogged down in an attempt to make a qualitative judgement on his level of 'wealth'.

No, we are studying the Bible to get its teaching accurately and to match our doctrine and practice accordingly!

debosky:
There is no doubt that Jesus' life did NOT in any way support a mindless pursuit of wealth - that is one thing we know for sure.

Thank God for little mercies!!!

Joagbaje:
Think about this Enigma , was Paul not perfect according to  OT standard righteousness? But he had to be saved.

Until you deal with Jesus' words about a person has to be born again to be in God's kingdom and that people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom, nothing you have to say is worth thinking about.

I knew you were going to come up with that sooner or later -- and I expect you at some point to go into the error/heresy of "Jesus died spiritually". I will leave all that for now.

Question: was Abraham born again after he had died?

Otherwise how could Abraham fulfill Jesus' statement that except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If Abraham is in heaven now, where and when was he born again?

Joagbaje:
Enigma
stop fighting, lets discuss, you are getting stuck now, and want to fight. Im i quoting from quoran?.

Deal with those two statements of Jesus: did Jesus lie when He said only a born again man will see the kingdom of God and then also said people will sit with Abraham in that same kingdom.

If you say Abraham was not born again ------- then you are calling Jesus a liar.

I will keep convicting you lot with the words of Jesus despite your cognitive dissonance! (Come to think of it I wonder if any of you or you all combined even know the meaning of cognitive dissonance)

Anyway here goes:


Words of Jesus in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Words of Jesus in Matthew 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Or perhaps you have better revelation than Jesus Christ Himself? Perhaps Oyakhilome, aka Nigeria's heretic-in-chief, has a better revelation than Jesus Christ. Perhaps we should discard those passages form the Bible and from the mouth of Jesus Himself and take our doctrine from your Book of erRoRs?

@ nuella

So Jesus Christ lied when He said only a born again man can see God's kingdom; and then also said people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom?

It is either Abraham was not born again ---- which means Jesus lied!

OR

Abraham was born again and Jesus is TRUE whereas Christ Embassy, your book of erRoRs and your chief heretic Oyakhilome are the real liars!

Joagbaje:
Enigma and Nuclearboy, One thing has just been made clear, You guys are not born again , You dont even understand it.but you are very religious, probably you love God, But lets lay all these abuses opaks, pako and wofer nonsense jargons aside. keep an open mind. supposing you are wrong. Think about this

There is nothing to think about; you and your boss opaks Oyaks are just heretics. As aletheia says of you, you cannot stand Aletheia and must resort to the same lies of satan; your prosperity "gospel" is just a vomit of satan (if I may borrow someone else's words).

^^^ Notice how he tries to use the doctrine of the Rhapsody of Realites aka Book of erRoRs to interprete the Bible. Deal with the words of Jesus as given you below:


Words of Jesus in John 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Words of Jesus in Matthew 8:11

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Or perhaps you have better revelation than Jesus Christ Himself? Perhaps Oyakhilome, aka Nigeria's heretic-in-chief, has a better revelation than Jesus Christ. Perhaps we should discard those passages form the Bible and from the mouth of Jesus Himself and take our doctrine from your Book of erRoRs?

By his statement that Moses and Elijah are dead again Joagbaje shows once again that he and Christ Embassy do not really belong to the Christian faith. No one following Christ will say that Moses and Elijah who were with Christ at the transfiguration are dead again. It also goes to show two other things: (1) Joagbaje ranks Rhapsody of Realities above the Bible; (2) Joagbaje ranks the "teachings" of Chris Oyakhilome above the teachings of Jesus Christ.

On this issue at least, we have exposed the bankruptcy of the doctrine of Joagbaje and Christ Embassy and perhaps we need not bother to address Joagbaje directly anymore but just to put information out there for the benefit of whoever might come in contact with this thread. In this spirit, a good study on the salvation of Abraham  can be found in this link: Abraham's Salvation Defined

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=432786.msg5926695#msg5926695 date=1271808940]what is WoF?[/quote]The Word of Faith movement aka the prosperity "gospel"; see http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

@ Officerricky

May the soul of the faithful departed rest in peace and rise in glory.

I hope you find hope and comfort even amidst your grief; remember weeping may endure for a night but joy comes in the morning.

^^^ Superb!