₦airaland Forum

Reading Joagbaje's posts; sometimes you wonder where to start as it is full of errors large and small! However, at the heart of the litany of errors are some fundamental errors and even heresies which include (among others):

1. The downgrading of Jesus to the status of a man; a man who needed to be "born again"; who needed his spirit "recreated".

2. The elevation of (the "born-again" man to a status equal with (and indeed sometimes even higher than) Jesus; thus this so-called "born-again" man, has his spirit "recreated" supposedly like Jesus and when that happens this so-called "born-again" man becomes a "super-human".

Of course none of this is taught in scripture and each is heresy; it is their fleshly insistence on seeing themselves as super-human having been "born-again" that is at the heart of their inability to see that they are just ordinary sinners who sometimes (like Liardon, Haggard & Crouch) are even worse than non-believers or supposedly none "born-agains"! They have bastardised the words "born again" and insult those words by their doctrine.

Their flesh-pleasing doctrine induces them into the deadly sin of pride and they place themselves above everyone else including biblical patriarchs, heros and saints --- people whose shoe-laces they are unfit to tie. Their sin of pride of the flesh make them place themselves above Abraham, Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist. I mean someone wants to compare those names to Liardon, Haggard and heretics like Hagin, Copeland, Oyakhilome let alone minions like Joagbaje? Is the person not blinded by pride and conceit?

They delude themselves that they "speak in tongues", "cast out demons", "perform  miracles" when sane persons, Christians or not, can see that the emperor has no clothes.


As a side dig: these fellows will say they preach tithing because Abraham did it; now they turn around and downgrade the same Abraham; this same Abraham whom they say is not in the kingdom of heaven (despite the clear words of Jesus Himself); this same Abraham whom they say is learning from them.

WoF has no morals, is devoid of principle, is all diabolically geared towards denying the teachings of Christ and of the Bible and in the process lining the pockets of its wolves at the sheeple's expense!

hubreality:
little devil got no power to be compared to the Lord of Hosts. Many at times I observed that this happens when the couple are not co-pastors or ministers. The woman may try to understand the vision but not practically involved as a co-pastor with him vise versa.  So strange! And it hurts! All things work together for good to them that believe irrespective of seemingly odds. God still love them!

Randy & Paula White?

Weeks and Juanita Bynum?

Robert Bob Tilton and Leigh Valentine (edited)

Joagbaje:
Religious activity does not grant a man this life. He has to be born into it. I will elaborately comment on the scriptures you quoted tommorow. I wont forget this. If you prove me wrong . I wont deny it.but  you must hear  me out without biases.

He wants to go and study the book of erRoRs some more --------- and dig himself into further error and even heresy! Meanwhile don't hold your breath that he will genuinely address the scriptures indeed; the likelihood is that he will find tangentially related scriptures and twist them again to fit into his error!

It is becoming obvious that reasoning and biblical truths are lost on Joagbaje in his numerous delusions based on the flesh-pleasing doctrine of "Christ" Embassy and Word of Faith generally. Of course, his recurrently flowing poison must be continually combated with the antidote of biblical truths. In the process, it seems that ridicule is all he, "Christ" Embassy and their heretic-in-chief opaks Oyaks and the whole Word of Faith movement deserve. As for him turning from this vomit of satan, only the divine power of God can do that.

Joagbaje:
They were labelled righteous men in generic terms, but they didn't have the nature and the gift of righteousness.

This line shows that the maker is a prideful person who places his/CEC/WoF's fleshly, arrogant doctrine above the very words of God Almighty Himself

Compare the nonsense and what the Bible says in Genesis 15:6

And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [the LORD] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

What is "generic" about "righteousness" in that passage --- except in the eyes of those preaching a different and a heretical "gospel"? We know that Joagbaje and his like not only prefer to remain in biblical ignorance but are actually worse in that they will ignore, hide and even themselves hide from biblical truth. So, not so much for his sake but for the sake that such wolves may mislead, here is what Paul says in amplification of the righteousness mentioned in that Genesis 15:6

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For [if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5[b]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/b]

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8[b]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin[/b].

9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all . . . .

Is it not clear that Abraham received justification, righteousness and also his sin not imputed all because of his faith? This same Abraham is described as the father of all that believe. All that believe in what or whom?

Is it not clear that only a theological illiterate or a biblically un/misinformed person or an out and out liar and deceiver who will say that "righteousness" used in connection with Abraham (and ergo all who believe like he did) in those passages is "generic" i.e. not specific as in salvation?

Joagbaje:
They were shaddows. They are not part of the church of Christ.

Even without further refutation, a number of earlier posts and passages that have been posted (e.g. by aletheia and ttalks) already show that the above is the line of a theological dunce! Where does it say Abraham or other Old Testament were shadows let alone "shaddows" (sic)?

As has been pointed out was it not the same Abraham of whom Jesus said:

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

Is it not a biblically un/misinformed person or a liar and deceiver that will say Abraham is not part of the Church of Christ? The same Abraham of whom Christ spoke as quoted? The same Abraham that Paul described as the father of all who believe?

What about Moses (and indeed the others mentioned in Hebrews 11)? He is (they are) not part of the Church of Christ? Here is what Hebrews 11 says:

23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26[b]Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt[/b]: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Oh who to believe ? The Rhapsody of Realities aka book of erRoRs or the Bible?

They can't attain perfection until we get to heaven.

The Hebrews passage concerned has been explained by at least three of us on this thread using various techniques. Yet I am not surprised that Pasiiitor Joagbaje remains recalcitrant --- considering his flesh-motivated doctrine. One small mercy, assuming I'm right, I notice he has not used the line that he and his fellow WoF "born again" (including the likes of Liardon, Haggard & Crouch) are the ones making the OT saints perfect!

@ nuclearboy

You raised an important point about why people preferred to be lied to. Well, in my view it's a range of psychological factors but all stemming from the fact that human beings naturally have hopes and desires (sometimes even greed) for what is good.

If a person goes to hospital and is feeling very bad, they would prefer to hear that "all will be well though keep on taking the following medication" rather than be told they have a serious medical problem though it can be managed by medication. So, some time people deny reality just to comfort themselves. Some people are dependent or co-dependent: they feel good about themselves if they can claim the company of certain people e.g. despite the fraudulent pastor 'John Fashanu and Patti Boulaye are members of my church; others are corporate and professional people' and in effect 'this validates me too'!

Some see the pastor and his flashy lifestyle, expensive suits, flashy cars etc and because that's where they want to be, they fail to see that they are the mugs funding that lavish lifestyle. The pastor guy feeds their greedy aspiration by telling them comforting lies that they are guaranteed to get that lifestyle -------- by tithing and sowing fruits. The mugs are too blinded by their greed that they cannot see that they are being taken for mugs. I mean if I start a church and I have just 20 people who are earning decent enough incomes donate their "tithes" aka 10% of their income to me every month, do I need to go and work myself? Of course not; all I need is to maintain the church charade and edifice!

Some are lacking courage and knowledge, often resulting from having been well brainwashed; they have only ever known this kind of "gospel" and it is very difficult to see another way, very difficult to go elsewhere. Let us take the example of a couple of women in the news recently who were abducted when they were very young, kept prisoner and repeatedly despoiled by their abductor. When they were freed and the abductor eventually caught, the women still admitted having some feeling (maybe even longing) for the abductor!

That is the problem with these people. I am sure that some members of Oyakhilome's church, for example, are not wholly comfortable with what they see and hear but either do not know what to do and where to go or do not have the courage to do or to go. I say to such people ---- it can be done; you can be free; you can leave and look elsewhere; indeed, you can leave and truly turn to Jesus! Indeed, the poster SirJohn is one example on this Board ---------- but one far far far too small example.

Bynum also filed for bankruptcy, claiming that she is more than $5 million in debt (“Weeks able to resurrect his ministry,” The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, April 11, 2009). She lost possession, through foreclosure, of the $4.5 million compound that formerly housed her ministry.

This one caught me by surprise; while I was aware of her marital difficulties, I did not know that she had actually filed for bankruptcy! Whither her prosperity "gospel"? Why did she not sow her way out of financial trouble as she preached? Why did she not empty all the funds in her bank account and sow it --- as she once taught her victims?.


@ogajim

O ga o! I'm glad that lady has been able to move on! The episode was a big scandal here and a stain on all (especially, black pentecostal/charismatic) Christians.

ajoguegbe:
JESUS DID NOT HEAL EVERYBODY DURING HIS EARTH WALK
. . .
Another report says that Jesus could not (not did not)do many miracles in his country
Mark 6:4-5
"But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them."

Some people (especially WoFers) like to use Mark 6:4-5 to justify the failings of their nonsensical doctrine and false miracle claims when the miracles do not happen. True, on the face of it, it might appear that Jesus did not do many miracles in Nazareth on that occasion because of unbelief BUT was it that their unbelief limited His Divine power? Below is a more sensible and logical explanation (though we can expect it to fall on deaf ears in some cases)!

3. Yet he could there do no such mighty works, at least not so many, as in other places, because of the unbelief that prevailed among the people, by reason of the prejudices which their leaders instilled into them against Christ, v. 5. It is a strange expression, as if unbelief tied the hands of omnipotence itself; he would have done  as many miracles there as he had done elsewhere, but he could not, because people would not make application to him, nor sue for his favours; he could have wrought them, but they forfeited the honour of having them wrought for them. Note, By unbelief and contempt of Christ men stop the current of his favours to them, and put a bar in their own door.

4. He marvelled because of their unbelief, v. 6. We never find Christ wondering but at the faith of the Gentiles that were strangers, as the centurion (Mt. 8:10), and the woman of Samaria, and at the unbelief of Jews that were his own countrymen. Note, The unbelief of those that enjoy the means of grace, is a most amazing thing.

From Here

Indeed, na wa!!!


See below

http://jesusblogger./2008/05/06/disgraced-douglas-goodman-out-of-prison-and-back-into-the-pulpit-is-this-right/

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=439112.msg5978795#msg5978795 date=1272654144]You know what guys, I fear that even if the truth about what Christianity really is and the fraud thats being perpetuated in Christ's name by men who claim to be his servants fully comes out into the open and people have to choose, the majority of them will choose to stick with their MOGs as they're the ones telling them what they want to hear!

Just my thoughts.  .  .   [/quote]

davidylan:
your thoughts are bang on point. These ministers are only proliferating because there is a large market out there for the fraud they perpetrate in the name of Gawd.

Here is an old story that some people might be familiar with. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article417711.ece

A CHARISMATIC television evangelist is facing jail after being convicted of a series of sexual assaults on female worshippers.

Douglas Goodman, a former bus driver and petty criminal turned preacher, is also at the centre of an investigation into the disappearance of £3 million from the accounts of one of Britain’s largest churches.

As head of the Victory Christian Centre in North London, his congregation included Patti Boulaye, the singer, and John Fashanu, the former England footballer, who gave evidence in his support.

After the guy was convicted and sent to jail for sexual and financial offences, his wife pulled the church away from the authority of the Charity Commission; in other words, she declared that their church was now a business and not a charity. And guess what? Many of the sheeple continued to flock to the church as it was pastored by the wife while he was doing his jail (porridge or ewa beans). After serving his jail time, guess what? The guy of course returned to pastoring.

One final guess what The majority of his congregation are . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nigerians (supposedly educated Nigerians at that)!!!! Sometimes when we think our people are smart, we forget that because of greed and aspiration our people themselves are sometimes the very easiest to defraud, the very easiest to 419 and take as mugu or is it maga that they say now?

Good points raised by OP.

On a lighter note:

Pastor AIO:
I believe that a pastor mrs can give somebody ginger beer, but if we were talking about a Chief pastor mrs then I wouldn't believe it. I would believe it even less if we were talking about a Chief Engr Pastor Mrs (cantab).

Actually, you might have to go as high as Chief Pastor Mrs Prophetess Mummy [Pastor's wife] before I refuse to believe that she can give somebody ginger beer!

Matthew 1:23

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”which is translated, “God with us.”

O little town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie!
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep the silent stars go by.
Yet in thy dark streets shineth the everlasting Light;
The hopes and fears of all the years are met in thee tonight.

For Christ is born of Mary, and gathered all above,
While mortals sleep, the angels keep their watch of wondering love.
O morning stars together, proclaim the holy birth,
And praises sing to God the King, and peace to men on earth!

How silently, how silently, the wondrous Gift is giv’n;
So God imparts to human hearts the blessings of His Heav’n.
No ear may hear His coming, but in this world of sin,
Where meek souls will receive Him still, the dear Christ enters in.

Where children pure and happy pray to the blessèd Child,
Where misery cries out to Thee, Son of the mother mild;
Where charity stands watching and faith holds wide the door,
The dark night wakes, the glory breaks, and Christmas comes once more.

O holy Child of Bethlehem, descend to us, we pray;
Cast out our sin, and enter in, be born in us today.
We hear the Christmas angels the great glad tidings tell;
O come to us, abide with us, our God Emmanuel!

In post #8 see how the fraudster called the price of his merchandise "love gift"; they learn such "spiritual" words from the likes of Benny Hinn. It's a pity that it works because their victims erm customers "partners" are fooled by those spiritual-sounding words.

I'm afraid it's been going on for a while. There was one in the US (where it all started naturally) some years ago which even included 'fleecing the flock' on bosoms its programme, believe it or not! Pity I never saved the link.


EDIT lol I must have typed t its by accident!

On the "perfection" if the WoFers were not motivated by prideful flesh and if they will only read/study a little further into Hebrews 12, they would have asked themselves whether it makes any sense that they would be the ones bringing perfection to any other saved person --- even OT saved persons.

Does Hebrews 12 not say that Jesus Christ is the perfecter (NIV though KJV uses "finisher" of our faith? Does that not also include the faith of the OT saints? Does it mean that while Christ perfects NT saints, he doesn't do it for the OT saints; instead these WoFer "new creation" is the one who perfects the faith of the OT saints? Is that not plain silly, outright daft and flesh motivated?

Hebrews 12:2 (NIV)

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Yet further on this same perfection and still in the same Hebrews 12 this time verses 22-24

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Are the "spirits of righteous men" made perfect divided into two i.e. those made perfect by Jesus and OT saints made perfect by the WoFer "new creation"? Is it not obvious, more sensible and even more spiritual that one thing, no, even One Person makes the spirit of ALL righteous men perfect?

WoFer, member of CEC, repent!!! Place Jesus Christ in His place. Place Him in His exalted position. Remove yourself from your falsely assumed "high chair" before the celebrant comes to tell you to go and sit at the back and not occupy the seat reserved for the guest of honour!!!

Member of CEC repent!!! Get your nose out of Rhapsody of Realities aka the book of erRoRs; do not let it steal from you the truths of the Bible, even the truths of God!

Ndipe:
Saw this on the internet
http://www.layhands.com/MustChristiansTitheTenPercent.htm

Good find!

nuclearboy:
. . .
Furthermore, the question must be asked, [size=14pt]"Who do you wish to defend; the self- proclaimed teacher and preacher that you love and adore, or the sovereign God of the universe whose commands and doctrines you deny WHEN you support and defend that which is false, heretical, immoral or illegal?[/size]

If only anyone who wants to say or write "touch not my anointed" would ask themselves this question first beforehand and honestly answer it!

Instead of worshiping the Almighty God, many people have made gods and false idols for themselves in their "men (women) of God"!!! As someone said some time ago, many people have turned the G.O. of their church into G.O.D.!

newmi:
. . .
Firstly, the individuals whose names you have higlighted above are individuals who in their own rights are "working out their own salvation, with all fear and trembling, " and for the most part, salvation is personal. But l think what you should rather bring in view is the "New Creation". The New creation was God's secret plan such that Holy men of God and prophets some of which youn have listed above spoke about as they where moved by God's Spirit (2 peter 1:21- For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost)

the questin of the new creation being superior to all the prophets of the O.T. is not to any discredit or ignorminy to them rather its a plus credited to them as a crowning glory for all their effort and labour. Now Hebrews 11 will be of ultermost interest for the most fact becoz it highlights with pride to all of us in the body of Christ the successful "faith-walk" of those on whose shoulders we are built (", we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, ", now Heb 11:39-40 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith[i], received not the promise:[/i] God having provided some[i] BETTER THINGS FOR US, that they without us should not be made perfect[/i]
tanx

Well Liardon and Haggard are supposed to be the "new creation"; you say as new creation they are superior to the prophets of the OT.

My question still remains: as "new creation", are Liardon and Haggard superior to the OT prophets ---- bearing in mind what the "new creation" Liardon and Haggard have both admitted as I have pointed out repeatedly?

Biox:
@ enigma
the answer to your questions,i dont have up hand info about hargard and liardon right now,but if this folks are born again then yes elijah is learning from them and is made perfect by them

OK let me add some more to help you further.

Yes, Liardon and Haggard are "born again" but have both admitted having homosexual affairs. So are you still saying Elijah, Moses John the baptist are learning from them and made "perfect" by them?


What are they learning from them and how do Liardon and Haggard make the OT saints perfect?

Biox:
@ enigma
hebrews 11:39-40
specificaly said that both sarah noah moses name that,that having obtained a good report,throught faith received not the promise,verse 40 says that GOD HAVING PROVIDE A BEETER THING FOR US,that htey without us SHOULD NOT be made perfect.sefeniiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
and if you are born again enigma they will be learning from you too

If you want to answer my questions, please answer them; they are only two posts or so above!

@ newmi

OK, I have already "accepted" (or at least I am "agreeing" now) that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

My question is a much simpler one (and I hope with this post it will be yet simple enough for you and your fellow CEC members/WoFers to understand).

Are Liardon, Roberts, Crouch (who are not sinners because they are "born again" and forgiven) greater than Elijah, Moses, Abraham and John the baptist?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc learning from Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Additionally, are Moses, Elijah etc made perfect by Liardon, Haggard and Crouch?

Again, remember that I have "agreed" with you that Liardon, Haggard and Crouch are not sinners.

Are the questions simple enough for you (and other CEC members WoFers) now?

@Joagbaje

I often ignore quite a lot of nonsense in your posts because dealing with all of them will probably take an eternity. But just for an example I want to pick a very recent one.

Joagbaje:
Why is it that only the dead in christ that will rise first.  This is the kingdom of heaven headed by Christ. The rest of the righteous dead have not entered this kingdom yet . even though they are in the Jingdom of God. Their own will take place after our 1,000 years reign physically ont his earth. that is when the rest of the dead will rise. . . .

Ater the 1,000 years or millenial reign Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, After we have put down all rebellion in the final battle against evil. The kingdom of christ or the kingdom of heaven will be divered into the kingdom of God. This is where the OT folks Joins us.God will reign over all. . . .

The finall resurrection will take place.and the final judgement by God himself will take place. . . .

So you can see , there is distinction between us and OT folks , we dont even have thesame resurrection to start with.There are different orders, according to level of superiority. Christ first , we second , then others in different generations.

How about the OT folk in the passage below then? You want to square your theology with that?

Matthew 27
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Edited

Joagbaje:
Either Robert sinned or not , he is still a Child of God. Are you a child of God? havent you sinned? So why are you on the case of another.

"See your life outside"    You see yourself and your chicanery.

OK if he is a child of God; that means he is born-again right; so he only has to ask for forgiveness and he is unlike those not born again who are "dead in their sin" and cannot get forgiveness, right? (all these according to your WoF theology)

OK as Roberts Liardon is a born-again man who can get forgiveness because he is born again, is he, like you and opaks Oyaks,

1. greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o?

2. a person who will bring perfection to Moses and all?

3. a person the early apostles are actually learning from?

4. a person the patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from?

@ Joagbaje

I'm sorry that it is difficult to say the following without seeming to insult you. Anyway, in your case your comprehension is poor and you are, personally, easily led into error by the deceivers because of this.

Joagbaje:
Enigma,
I didint write the bible , Read it for yourself. and stop asking funny question

Hebrews 11:39-40
    And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that[b] they without us should not be made perfect[/b].

Let me set you a small scenario: you want to have a party in Yenagoa because it's your 50th birthday; your son is in America and he says he will show up on the day; in your mind you earnestly desire to have him there; in a way if he does not show up your joy is not "perfect" --- unless and until he shows up.

Now if you have sense you will go back and read Hebrews 11 carefully instead of making a fool of yourself (demonstrating poor comprehension repeatedly) and showing how you are easily fooled by very fleshly motivated people like Oyaks etc 

Joagbaje:
Matthew 11:11
    Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding[b] he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.[/b]

Read my recent posts again carefully . Dont be in a rush to write. Dont make me feel im wasting my time.

Indeed, if we were thinking of you alone, we are wasting our time responding to you. However, it is important that we combat the doctrine of erroneous and false teachers like you. This your nonsense about John the baptist, I already explained to you (I think on page 1 of this thread); but your prideful and arrogant flesh keeps your eyes and mind blind, your heart hardened and you refuse to seek out the truth.

Yeah tell me about it, you and opaks Oyaks are greater than John the baptist ----- the very one who baptised the Lord Jesus Christ. Go and read my explanation of the context of saying the least in the kingdom of God (which you are not yet in in the proper sense and only until then) is greater than John as a man.

But of course you and opaks Oyaks are also greater than Moses and Elijah who were at the transfiguration (as I keep repeating); in fact I've just seen nuclearboy's post on the point and yes ----- indeed I guess you and opaks already have your glorified bodies and will arrange for us to see you recreate events similar to the transfiguration soon. Bunch of unrepentant flesh-motivated (in fact unspiritual) heretics, the lot of you.

@ Pasiitor Joagbaje

You are still playing the same broken record.  Worse than that you are playing tricks with yourself.

Liardon, Haggard and Crouch all meet your criteria of the born again man with the superhuman complex, yet we have shown you that by their activity they are far from this your "superhuman" person that you proclaim with your WoF "born again"; now you turn round and deny them ------ simply so as not to face up to the truth that your "superhuman born again" man complex/idea is a lie and a bankrupt sham.

OK, let me play along with you for a while and leave aside Liardon/Haggard/Crouch even though you have actually esteemed two of the three on this board.

Let us take your own "god" Oyakhilome. Is Oyakhilome as your "born again recreated/new creation person"

1. greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o?

2. a person who will bring perfection to Moses and all?

3. a person the early apostles are actually learning from?

4. a person the patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from?

Joagbaje:
. . .
Robert Liardon may have his short comings, I dont have a first hand information on this, But there is no Sin a christian commits that will make him cease to be a christian. If the man really commit homosexuality, he needs help. No child of God love to live in sin, But his sin did not stop him from being a child of God and , does not stop him from being a vessel of God. Except if he refuse to repent as you said he openly declared for homosexuality which I find hard to believe but if its true, his life must have been invaded by demons,  That does not negate any of  the works he had before. Solomon went into the sin of Idolatory,but we still read his books of proverbs today. We dont glory in a man's fall. Its a kindom of  love. If God is still using a man, if God has not given up in a man , who are we to condemn him.

Pasiitor Joagbaje, one further question (for now) based on your quote above and especially the highlighted.

So this your own "born again new creation/recreated person" can be invaded by demons? Despite the fact that his own spirit has been recreated?

Na waa for him o!

Following my last post of quotations above (I've chosen to break the last post into two):


Thus (according to you Pasiitor Joagbaje):

1. When a person confesses Christ by faith he is instantaneously born again.

2. The person is born and recreated in his spirit that moment too.

3. This your "born again recreated/new creation person" is too big and superior to be praying the Lord's prayer!

4. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is no longer a sinner; the old nature of sin is taken away; there is nothing he can do that can make him a sinner

5. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is greater than all the Old Testament folk. He is greater than Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the baptist.

6. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is the one who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

7. The early apostles are actually learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person"!

8. The patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person".


The problem: below are three persons who meet your criteria of "born again new creation/recreated person" and obviously had/have your respect.

A. Roberts Liardon: you brought up his name and we pointed to his admitted homosexual affair and that he was "pastoring" a WoF "church at the time?

B. Ted Haggard: WoF very big even top shot who admitted homosexual affair and drug use

C. Paul Crouch: WoF top-shot and head of TBN who paid $425,000 (presumably from donations by his mugs "partners" to keep an alleged homosexual partner quiet.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" from whom the patriarchs are learning.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

Do you want to think about your WoF theology again. Perhaps WoF theology might just be a whole load of nonsense as we have been telling you?

^^^^ I wonder for Joagbaje oooo!

@ Pasiiitor Joagbaje

OK let us try and spell out even more clearly than before the implications of some of the things you have been saying on this thread (and elsewhere too of course); obviously I have only made a selection to prove a point.

Being born again is an instatanous experience. The moment you confess the lordship of Christ by faith, you recieve the gift of eternal life. being born again is not a progressive experience at all.  The only progressive part is your growth which is the salvation of your soul. We may use the term "souls saved" in generic term but it is not precisely thesame. Man is a Spirit, he has a Soul and he lives in a Body.  The man get "born" or recreated in his spirit the moment he recieves Christ by confessing him as lord. Bu the salvayion of the soul which is growth and maturity is a continous process until Jesus come. The takes place by the agency of the word of God.

The lords prayer  was not taught to the Church. It was taught to people who had not been born again nor recieved the holyspirit. We can call their time intertestimental period. The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost.

A Sinner is a man under the dominion of sin. When a man gets born again, he ceases to be a sinner. Even if he makes a mistake, he is still a child of God . . . .  there is no mistake that a Christian will make that will make him a sinner. Because he is born into righteousness. Sin is. Nature and not conducts , righteousness is also a nature. A good behaviour will not make the sinner a Christian and a wrong action will not make the Christian a sinner.
Jesus came to give us eternal life. As we recieve this life , the old nature of sin is taken away.

Being born again goes beyond believing in God or in Christ. Being born again is as the word. "born" , birth.
Man is a spirit, he has a soul, he lives in a body.  The old testament folks worship God religiously, but God is not in religion , even though he allowed it and accepted it for the time being. God is a spirit and can only be fellowshiped with with our spirit. . . .

Man became spiritually dead at the fall of Adam. All the men that came before Christ were all dead in their spirit.This is actually the nature of sin. No matter how well they behaved, they were still sinners before God. So Adam o, Moses o, Elijah and all the prophets of old were dead in sin. . . .

To be born again is not just to believe in Jesus or believe in God . .Jesus was the first to be born of God. . . .

Being born again is more than moral up bringing and religiousity.He was the first to be born of God.The reason he had to come was to give us the life of God, . . .

The spiritual birth is an instatanous experience and not a process.From Adam to the last prophet, all were under the dominion of satan.

The moment a man recieves Christ , He become recreated in his spirit, he is born ane into God's kingdom .there is Kingdom shift. Instantly . . .

It is a participation in the kingdom life. Until a man recieves this life no matter how good ,or how much he confess sin, he cant function in the kingdom. . . .

A Christian has what all these OT folks never had. In Christ I am greater than they all!! . John was the greatest of all prophets because he had the opportunity to witness the messiah, But A christian is greater than john.

We have become like Christ because of the life now that is now in us and the nature of God. Eternal life is not about living forever but rather, its a quality of life.That is what a Christian is born with. . . .

This is in summary what it means to be born again. The righteousness and justification in Christ is not thesame as OT times. Theirs is measurable , ours is absolute.

Moses and all, They died in faith. But because of their fallen state which the blood of animals couldnt change, only the blood of Jesus could change the spiritual state of a man. They did not however become perfect. We are the ones that will bring perfection to them!

The early apostles belived in Christ but could not recieve the  holyghost until the got  born again. .Right now They only watch us now from the grandstand They are actualy learning from us, "how can God's life be in a man?"

The Patriachs of Old are only watching us from the grandstand. Infact they are learning from us about the life of Christ inside  a man.

Joagbaje:
I dont know about Liadon's sexuality . If the allegation is  true, it still has nothing to do with the facts presented in the book. The book is more of documentaries of lives of others. You dont judge a man by his mistakes either, excepts if his beliefs has changed. No child of God love to sin. If he fell ,he should be helped and not to be destroyed by us,  I pray a lot for ministers of God. So I dont rejoice over evil report.

Actually, Pasiitor Joagbaje, I have more questions for you.

Liardon was a WoF pastor; so, he was "born again" according to your/WoF manner of being "born again"; thus he is a new "creation", no?

So how come he was having a homosexual affair with his worship pastor (and I hear is an openly gay pastor now).

So, his own "born again" and "new creation", which is the same as your/Oyaks' "super-human" complex (no?) ----- is that any better than Abraham, Moses and Elijah who, according to you, did "not attain new creation"?

By the way since Moses and Elijah did not attain this your own "new creation", how come they were so honoured to have been the ones to be with Jesus at the transfiguration? Or maybe God/Jesus made a mistake about their status to have so honoured them? Are Moses and Elijah also envious of this your "new creation" status?

Even though they prophesied about it,they didnt have opportunity to partake of it. they didnt know what they prophesied, The Patriachs of Old are only watching us from the grandstand. Infact they are learning from us about the life of Christ inside  a man.

Are Moses and Elijah too "learning from [you and Liardon] about the life of Christ inside a man"?

Joagbaje:
I dont know about Liadon's sexuality . If the allegation is  true, it still has nothing to do with the facts presented in the book. The book is more of documentaries of lives of others. You dont judge a man by his mistakes either, excepts if his beliefs has changed. No child of God love to sin. If he fell ,he should be helped and not to be destroyed by us,  I pray a lot for ministers of God. So I dont rejoice over evil report.

Actually, you are assuming that we should believe what is in Liardon's book; even if Liardon did not turn out to have been living a lie, as he did, the book is not necessarily credible. In any event his own "word of faith" did not save him from his homosexuality, neither from the attending deceit, at the time, of being this 'spiritual tongue-speaking man of God' and WoF stalwart. Anyway, let's not waste time any more time on that and let's get back to the real business.

Joagbaje:
The blood of Jesus has paid the price for the sin of the word. The OT folks now have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
There is difference between redemption and  the new creation.Jesus did not need to rise for redemption to take place. His death on the cross was enough to pay for mans sin. The new creation is something else, When Jesus rose from the dead , He made it possible for us  to recieve the life of God. OT folks have not attain this.

At least you say OT folk were "redeemed"; is being redeemed not the same as being saved, as having remission of your sin, as being a beneficiary of the atonement through Jesus' blood? Or was their own atonement through the sacrifice of animals? To help you think this through, here is a clue: I hope you remember what the apostle Paul said about atonement through animal sacrifice. In fact here is a second clue: distinguish between (a) atonement and (b) the atonement.

Joagbaje:
Enigma.
,  I had said earlier that the kingdom has two parts. . There is a difference between "The Kingdom of God "  and  "the Kingdom of Heaven" Even though the 2 are used interchangably.One represents his Political structure,the other represents spiritual and moral structure. The Kingdom of heaven is headed by Christ , and we are in the Kingdom of Christ and Kingdom of heaven now. The patriachs of old are in the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God has always been .It ran from past to the future. But the Kindom of heaven is a temporal one which will run for a period. The kingdom of heaven is to establish the kingdom of God on the earth in the futrure.Christ is the head and king in the Kingdom of heaven but God the father is king in the kingdom of God which is overall. There are similaritie between the two kingdoms because the kindom of heaven is a part of the kingdom of God. But careful study also show that there are things that are not  applicable in the two kngdoms. From my own study,The Kindom of heaven is also the kingdom of Christ. I can summarise my findings below.

Pas[b]i[/b]tor Joagbajeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

Let us leave aside the issue of who wins an argument or not; this your post is nonsense and I honestly expected you to know better. So now you resort not just to twisting the Bible but twisting and even changing the words of Jesus Himself!!!! You see what Word of Faith theology does for you? Instead of accepting the truths of the Bible, you devise your own doctrines with all sorts of gymnastics, pussyfooting and faffing about!

OK, a simple question for you: what did the blood of Jesus or the death of Jesus do for Old Testament saints like Abraham?



PS I see you referring to Roberts Liardon; I hope you realise that Liardon has no credibility after that homosexual affair with his "Worship Director" (or someone like that) and other members of his then church?

Yep, indeed.

And just to state for the record: I have never doubted that Joagbaje is a Christian; in fact I don't honestly think he himself is a deceiver; it seems clear enough that he is honest in his belief (granted I could be wrong).

Another thing to clarify: the fact that I say someone teaches heresy or is a heretic does not necessarily mean to say the person is not a Christian; it means they depart unrepentantly from an important established teaching such that true fellowship becomes difficult if not impossible. Again, even wikipedia has an explanation of heresy along similar lines:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

bee444:
I think you're a bit ignorant here. If Jesus is the only begotten son of God, what about you and I? What's the significance of being born again? Jesus wasn't begotten until he was baptised, like-wise you and I. As soon as we receive that holy spirit and got baptised, we can boldly say we are the begotten son/daughter of God.
I want to see the places in the Bible where it says Jesus is not only God, but GOD Almighty.

It is very likely that this will be my last post addressed to you directly as I have no intention of trading words or insults with you. However, your earlier post to which I responded and the one quoted above have to be countered as you are simply repeating heresies that have been condemned by the Christian Church hundreds of years ago as anyone with sound Christian doctrine and church history should know. To repeat those heresies now smacks of ignorance, I'm afraid, and we should not allow you to mislead uninformed or misinformed people.

For the benefit of those who may potentially be misled by your posts, I put forward below certain salient points of sound universal Christian teaching:

Jesus IS God!
Jesus was NOT created!
Jesus was NOT made!
Rather Jesus IS begotten of the Father!
(EDIT) Jesus' baptism has nothing to do with His being begotten; rather Jesus IS eternally begotten!)
Jesus IS of one being with the Father!
Jesus WAS in the beginning, IS now and forever WILL BE!
Although the Bible describes Jesus as the first born among brethren, Jesus was NOT born again!

A born again person is NOT a begotten child of God.
Rather, a born again person is an adopted child of God.
A born again person is not "god"!
A born again person is just a man (person) though a new "creation" i.e. a man (person) with a new spiritual mind

If you are wise, you will go and study Bible and Christianity basics and stop spreading age old heresies!