₦airaland Forum

@nuclearboy

I'm afraid I'm not yet convnced we are saying the same thing. As I said I have never seen her or any of the others say you don't have to give the 'tithe' into church but can give it specifically to widows etc

nuclearboy:
Viaro:

I'm fine, chairman but expected a greater showing on the "chris says take it. do you believe it thread". That harakiri dude kept me away from all but 2 hours sleep since yesternight.

If you read Kunle's last post, Zikky's deliberately snide comments, Enigma's last post and what you just responded to from me, you'll realise we're all (you included) saying the same thing.

Nobody (including Kunle who we could call NLs' anti-tither in-chief) says giving a tithe of your income to church is wrong AS LONG AS it is with full knowledge of what you are doing i.e. it is informed AND voluntary. All everyone is saying is "THOSE" we are complaining about are those who turn it into a compulsory thing and preach it as a "requirement", not only for physical and financial well-being, but infact in many cases, go to the point of linking it to salvation.

Just read Enigma's post again. And remember what each has written in times past as to support for the work of God and ministry of those engaged in the work of the Gospel. And your correction above may be true of "some" that you know. Truth is that here, most all do not work like that. They tell you it MUST NOT go anyplace except to them.

I don't think that I am able to agree that we are saying the same thing! I have never seen any of them agree:

1. That a "tither" can instead of giving the "tithe" into "church", s/he can take that specific "tithe" (not another "tithe" after one taken to "church" and instead give it to widows etc: OR

2. That the tither can take the one "tithe" (not another, not "offering" and share it among "church", widows, orphans etc.

3. The two above are minimal ----- going beyond them I would still like to see that the emphasis is on "giving" which is what the Bible teaches --- rather than the "tithing" scam!

On the III John 2, here is what the verse says (using KJV):

Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Now this is simply the apostle John greeting and wishing Gaius well. However the "prosperity" pastors
thieves say this is God's promise that every Christian is to have prosperity.

Believe me, you are dealing with 419 people and I mean that very literally

Let me take the Psalm 68:19 one (there are many other similar verses that they use!)

Psalm 68:19 NKJV

Blessed be the Lord, Who daily loads us with benefits, The God of our salvation! Selah

They say that in order to secure the "daily benefits" referred to in the verse you should be sending $68:19 to their ministry "m-industry" every month!

Remember this is on top of "tithes", on top of "offering", on top of "special offering".

They are thieves!!!

As Kunle said in his last perceptive post, you can expect a lot of obfuscation.

The standpoint of those of us arguing against "tithing" is very simple.

1. An individual Christian can choose to do his own giving in the form of "tithing" --- particularly if s/he knows that "tithing" is not a Christian obligation . We have always said we have no problem with that. In my case, I have been saying that on nairaland since 2005; Kunle has been saying that since at least 2007.

2. We challenge and condemn the overwhelmingly fraudulent teaching of "tithing" --- as compulsory.

3. We resist and challenge the erroneous, i.e. misinformed teaching of "tithing" as compulsory.

4. Now we face the challenge of the egregious teaching of "tithing" as "voluntary" ----- knowing that it will only support the fraudulent and erroneous; knowing that neither Jesus Christ Himself nor the apostle Paul went that far.


All the talk of "principle" always stops at "paying/giving" the so called "voluntary" "tithes" into "church"; the "principle" never includes seeing tithing in Deuteronomy, Numbers, Leviticus etc as being given to widows, orphans, strangers etc. If it is a question of principle, why not "teach" that today's "tithe" does not have to go into church but can be given IN PRINCIPLE to today's equivalent IN PRINCIPLE of "widows, orphans, strangers" etc.

See which is more obvious IN PRINCIPLE:

Storehouse = "Church"

Widows, orphans, strangers = Widows, orphans, strangers


"In principle" of course!

E pass Joagbaje? What do you expect other than for him to be talking through his backside?

The "tithing" SCAM must be resisted and condemned.

There! I said it again in bold.

These people are ready to use any, i.e. any at all Bible passage as support for their "prosperity" gospel.

See what they say of III John 2

See what the likes of Mike Murdock, Paula White, even Ashimolowo do to passages like Psalm 68:19 (i.e. meaning you should be giving $68.19 every month).

Whether it is Abraham "tithe", Melchisedec "tithe", Jacob "tithe", Levitical "tithe", Malachi "tithe", the fact remains that the teaching/preaching of "tithing" today is overwhelmingly fraudulent and a scam. The scam must be resisted and condemned.

Again, I repeat, those who are teaching/preaching the so-called "voluntary" "tithing" are simply aiding and abetting the scammers.

Putting cat among pigeons:

Wasp has not evolved in 34 million years

@ Zikky

I saw Image123's "wayo" and I hope/believe most readers saw it too; your own integrity on the matter is totally intact!

D-optimist,

Tithing is not a requirement for a Christian; Jesus does not require a Christian to tithe; the apostles did not teach or require a Christian to tithe; the Bible does not require a Christian to tithe.

When you post the way you are doing, I'm afraid you are displaying ignorance of the Bible and of Christian doctrine.

First of all go back, sit down, take your time to learn some basic things or do "research"; you can start by simply reading all the posts on this thread i.e. arguments for and against "tithing"; When you are better informed, even if you still believe in "tithing" come back and discuss with informed people.

Let me give you one clue: the major debate on this thread has been between two camps: those who advocate "tithing" even though they accept that it is NOT a Christian obligation and those who insist that the biblical teaching is that each Christian should simply give as s/he purposes in his heart.

So, you still have some work to do before you can be taken seriously I'm afraid.

Of course my good friend pasiitor Joagbaje is talking through the wrong part of his anatomy again - as ever.   

I am taking the liberty to copy and paste here the post below made by origen2k on another thread (with small touches); I wonder if the latter part is taken by the poster from elsewhere; nevertheless, I really like the point it makes.

origen2k:
I want to opinethat tithing is not for the new creation believer.It was for the old covenant of laws imposed on the Jews ONLY.Jesus however urges us to give alms, This is stronger in commitment than tithes in that you have to go to an extent of selling what you have often to give to the poor, Read below.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Even as we entered this very day, God the Father ensured that all was certain that the sun was fully poised, ready to shine across the firmament upon all men .However, the fortunes defined by the world order of systems partially favors the one and inexplicably leaves out the another…
I want to say that this very morning already met some people mourning and sorrowing amidst myriad of fears piled up at the doorsteps of their hearts, thinking “What shall I Eat? What shall I drink and what shall I wear?”

That does not sound like you of course because…it’s never you.

As well, there are little children without parents also, probably unlike you and I and these little ones have no clue about how they can steer the course of their entire lives or even to begin with, have something to feed on this day.
In a world driven by hatred, wickedness and greed these abandoned ones have no fighting chance against myriads of odds competing for their daily sustenance.

However, the same morning that met some individuals in perpetual lack and anguish also met some individuals cornered with problems of how to go about dispensing and spending of their wealths.

What shall we then say to these things? It is the partiality of the times--The favoritism that ensures that a succinct few garner and possess the most wealth and resources of the world whilst a very many others scarcely subsist and thereby barely live from hand to mouth.
However thanks be to the almighty that the story is not ended there-- there are men of good hearts and intents. These, like the eyes of the almighty, observed all these and therefore strongly believe that there is a radical solution—a reviewing of this abysmal trend.
And like the heart of the creator, these believe that this societal bedeviling should be ameliorated by one means or the other.
And who are these set of exemplary crop of individuals?

They are no other but you and me.

And the most simple and potent means has been described by the Holy Scriptures: Giving: A very powerful option.

That popular song says give and it shall be given to unto you good measure, press down and shakingen together and running over --adapted from the Holy Scriptures. This giving pays eternal dividend in that it ensures something: A promise of a premium treasure account in the heavens as succinctly painted by the biblical passage:

Luk 12:33 “Sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor. Make yourselves wallets that don't wear out-a dependable treasure in heaven, where no thief can get close and no moth can destroy anything.

And the word and promises of God are without fail, for:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
For indeed no man has been able to sojourn to the heavenlies but there is one bridge that takes you closer to that much desired cherished location: Giving to the poor. Giving to the poor inis a very powerful weapon against the  militating of the devilish gates of hell against your ascendancy to a stately place after your transition from this carnal dwelling place.

In that light i would want to advocate to us that besides helping the poor out of sympathy, we should also be doers of the word and not hearers only.

Help the needy and deprived and the Almighty God shall surely help you:

Pro 19:17  He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.

nuclearboy:
@Viaro:

I have no doubt that at the forthcoming Olympics, you Viaro, can win all three Gold, Silver and Bronze medals at the "mental gymnastics" events for your intellect. Still, this is a puzzle to me remembering what I have seen you write here before on other topics.

You argue that cheating and doctrinal errors are wrong in christianity. But you argue for the most damning issue in christianity - the thing that seeks to commercialise Christs' teachings and make God out to be a land-lord who allows you continued tenancy BECAUSE you paid your rent and bought Him bushmeat your last visit to the village. You send "grace" out the window when you tell us a doctrine from the pits of hell is acceptable because you want no laws for Christians. Would you then support we kill since there are no binding laws on Christians? Why do I even ask seeing as the effect of our tithers has included the starvation to death of many just so they can say from the pulpit "God is good. Can't you see it? He has provided us air-conditioning in this monument to idiocy"! e.g. Adefarasin wants a 410 million Naira air-conditioning system.

Here on NL, you see people saying "few (if any) of Oyedepo's church members can afford to send their children to the school he built with their money". You see people saying "its private jet galore" whist members children are sent home from cheap school. I grew up in Lagos, friend. Have you seen the children coming out of the slums today? They will kill you for a piece of bread. They will break your car window to insist you give them money once its dark. We live in fear here once you have a good car whist you're enjoying your scholarship in the west telling us those innocent children who had their lives stripped from them and who were turned into animals are not partly victims of these rogues on the pulpits who have turned God's plan for societal relief into a self enrichment venture. Is the effect not worth considering especially when it passes (and ballons) from generation to generation. Or is it government alone that empowers society?

Those children had parents who believed God would bless them if they gave the "man of God". Seeing as the children only got hunger in return, the word "God" is a travesty to them and they prefer a knife or a gun. Many here have faced them and heard firsthand "ehn, you're praying to God? oya O, pastor, pray for us too but know something - that your God is greedy and I'll just give him some cash and he will forgive. And if he shows here as me dey vex, I go shoot am, e go cry". Funny? well, maybe to you safe in the west and telling us we don't know what we see.

But if the preaching of "tithes" AS IT IS FOUND here is Godly, God is not worth it! But I know God is worth it seeing as He warned us of them - "For they mouth empty boastful words (I AM GOD/CHRIST etc), and by appealing to the lustful desires (TO PROSPER) of sinful human nature, they entice people (NEW CHRISTIANS) who are just escaping from those who live in error (JUST LEFT THE UNREGENERATED LIFE). They promise them freedom (HEALTH, WEALTH, DOMINION), while they themselves are slaves of depravity (MONEY, MONEY AND MORE MONEY)"

This then, is what you don't seem to see you are supporting with your words.

^^^ This is a fantastic encapsulation of why the agitation to challenge the teaching on "tithing". The fact of the matter is that "tithe" teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is an extremely wicked anti-Christian doctrine. And let us not be misled that this is only so in Nigeria; let us not forget or overlook the fact that a lot of our Nigerian "pastors" and "GOs" are taking their false doctrine from American "prosperity"/Word of Faith preachers. Thus, in America particularly the wicked tithing doctrine is prevalent in a particular section of Christianity i.e. Pentecostal/Charismatic/Word of Faith camps --- some of which I even hesitate to call Christianity! You know what is worse; these wicked doctrines are often also prevalent among the poor and the hopeful ---- thus the wickedness is ravaging the American black community in particular. The mainstream Christians are not so badly affected ---- but we cannot afford to say "it is not my problem." The same thing obtains here in the UK: the mainstream churches - Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc - do not preach the wickedness of "tithing" thus the white majority population is not significantly affected and thus the majority may not see it as a problem. BUT go to the black churches and the likes of Ashimolowo, the convicted Goodman etc etc have been getting fat on the back of these wickedness on the poor and the hopeful/aspirational and often misinformed or poor-thinking Nigerian/African/Caribbean congregations.

Look at someone saying you should not follow your heart in your giving! That is an example of what I mean by the teaching of "tithing" being anti-Christian considering that the clear Christian teaching is in fact that you should follow your heart!

2 cor 9: 7 (NIV)

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

From the Prince of Preachers (C H Spurgeon)   http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0145.htm

{In fact, I should be starting a separate thread later on "Love Thy Neighbour" using this sermon as its base)

Love your neighbour, in the next place, because that will be the way to do good in the world. You are philanthropists, some of you subscribe to missionary societies, you subscribe to the society for orphans, and other charitable objects. I am persuaded that these institutions, though they be excellent and good things, are in some respects a loss, for now a man gives to a society one-tenth of what he would have given himself; and where an orphan would have been kept by a single family, ten families join together to keep that orphan, and so there is about one-tenth of the charity. I think the man who has the time is bound to give nothing at all to societies, but to give all away himself. Be your own society. If there be a society for the sick, then if you have enough money, be your own sick society. If you have the time go and visit the sick yourself, you will know money is well spent then, and you will spare the expense of a secretary. There is a society for finding soup for the poor. Make your own soup. Give it yourself; and if every one who gives his half-a-crown to the society would just spend half-a-sovereign to give the soup away himself, there would be more done. Societies are good; God forbid that I should speak against them; do all you can for them: but still I am afraid that they sometimes thwart individual effort, and I know they rob us of a part of the pleasure which we should have in our own benefactions—the pleasure of seeing the gleaming eye, and of hearing the grateful word when we have been our own almoners.

@ garyarnold

That is precisely why I left debosky to his "convictions and conscience" ---- I was going to ask same questions and more but just thought better of it.

@ debosky

I'm going to leave you with your convictions and conscience; I reserve the right naturally to continue to challenge the teaching/preaching of tithing here and elsewhere whenever I choose to do so.

@ debosky

Let me tell you a few things about why "recommending" to another Christian that his giving should be in the form of (a)10%, (b) every month and (c) into a "church" is not acceptable.

1. It goes against Jesus' teaching: Jesus said that the way to give to HIM is to help the poor, the sick, the prisoner. When people, especially those on low wages, pay/give 10%, every month, into a church ----- they are left with limited means to do what Jesus actually said that they should do.

2. It goes against the freedom to decide giving given to each Christian. You should tell them what the Bible says: each of you should decide in YOUR OWN mind what and where to give ---- especially bearing in mind Jesus' teaching referred to in no 1 above. The maximum I can tolerate is if you say: "this is what I do (i.e. give 10% into church) ---- but you should decide for yourself what to do". I tell you that I can even only barely tolerate that ----- it is not your business to decide for them, to subjugate them and to deny them the freedom that Christ and the New Testament gives to them.

3. You are denying the people you preach it to, and persuade, from being able to demonstrate true Christianity and true Christian love. As I said in no. 1, once most have paid/given 10% into church, they are limited in their ability to "love thy neighbour", to help the poor chap that they can actually see, to help the hungry that they can actually see, to help the sick that they can actually see. The Bible says if you cannot love your neighbour that you can see, how can you love God that you cannot see.

4. It is propping up the tithing scam --- knowingly or unknowingly. Posts abound all over nairaland of people who have been taken in by the tithing scam and say it is an obligation to "pay" "tithes" or "you will not 'make' heaven" or you will not see blessings. Only a fool will deny that the overwhelmingly prevalent idea of the Christian "tithe" (and not only in Nigeria) is that of an obligation, an obligatory "payment". When you say you are recommending to Christians to "give" (a)10%, (b) every month (c) into "church", you are only reinforcing the idea of obligatory tithing ---- at the least indirectly. Hence, you are helping to put people under a bondage that the gospel has freed/is meant to free them from.

There are other factors but I will stop at the above for brevity's sake.

EDIT  Now do you still call that a hang up?

debosky:
I didn't accuse you of anything.  . . .

Nonsense! Saying one is advocating hypocrisy is not accusing him of anything?

debosky:
. . .  Regardless of your personal hang ups about how some people have abused tithing, you cannot remove the validity of giving 10% using the OT as a guide, and recommending same to others.

You cannot use your own personal hang ups of greed and fear of not tithing for giving 10% into "church" to lead people away from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles about giving and the freedom given to them to make their own minds up!

{See I can play your game of imputing base motives to others!}

debosky:
Thanks to viaro for shedding light on the usage of tithe in the bible - this renders the argument about being able to use the word tithe ended.  

You are advocating hypocrisy - why can I not recommend something that I deem acceptable to God to another man? If it was right for me, what makes it a way of propping up anything?  

If I recommend you do what I do, with good faith, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If it is not worth recommending to anyone, then it is WRONG in itself - and we both know it isn't.

You can accuse me of whatever you like. The fact is ----- biblical teaching is that each should decide what to give; Jesus and Paul who both made this teaching did not "recommend" 10% and they were both aware of OT tithes.

garyarnold:
viaro said, "the difference is that I don't think it either sides (between anti-tithing or pro-tithing arguments) should be made a Law for Christians. Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."

Most protestant pastors don't teach "Let each one decide as he/she is led in their hearts."  THAT is the problem, Bro.  Pastors teach it wrong, and more people need to stand up to their pastor and correct him.  It's the teaching that tithing is a requirement in the NT that is so disturbing.  THAT, my friend, is why we need to STOP using the word tithing for giving.  IF pastors taught that tithing was voluntary, not required, and by not tithing you were not robbing God, I wouldn't have any problem with this whole topic.

By using the word tithing when you are giving, you now become part of the problem.

This is the point; this is the crux of the matter! On top of that if the so-called "tithers" (voluntary or otherwise) merely confine themselves to doing it as their choice, there won't be a problem. To teach "tithing", voluntary or otherwise, as Christian doctrine goes against Scripture and must be challenged and condemned.

Edit to clarify: if you teach people to give and say it can be in the form of 10%, or more, or less, and that the giving does not have to be exclusively into "church", then you are starting to talk; but saying "I recommend doing your giving by donating 10% into church" is at the minimum a means of propping up the tithing scam, wittingly or unwittingly!

debosky:
Kindly tell me the written law that made Abraham and Jacob DECIDE to tithe.

I am always amused when people try to limit any references to the tithe to the period of the law.  

Secondly you are wrong on another count - Scribes/Teachers of the law didn't tithe?  

Matthew 23:23

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Again, exercise caution when trying to make definitive statements.

No one said giving began or ended at 10% - are there instances of giving in the OT at 10%? YES - by the fathers of the faith, and it was recognised as acceptable to God, documented in Hebrews. If it was acceptable then, I can choose to do so, just like Jacob did. What I choose to give 10% from is my decision - Jacob made a vow to give 10%, so no one can tell me not to give 10%, or aspire to give 10% and above, or any other percentage based on their own hang ups.  What I choose to use as a giving guideline cannot be decided by you or anyone else.

This your post is baffling on many counts!!!

I have dealt with Abraham's "tithe" thoroughly recently on another thread --- so I wonder how you accuse me with your line of being amused about limiting references on tithing to the law!

Also, I am perplexed with your line about teachers/scribes not tithing ---- since I made no reference to such!

The last part of the post and your subsequent post have already been dealt with when I said:

Enigma:
. . . Yep, a person can choose to make his own giving 10% BUT you can't go teaching/preaching this to other people. Again, the apostle Paul whose writing on giving is often quoted did not do it; even Jesus Christ Himself did not do it! And it is not as if neither said anything about giving; they both said a LOT about giving but never with reference to 10% and NEVER by recommending to anyone to cross-reference their giving to "tithes"! . . .

I cannot challenge your right to "tithe" or give 10% into "church" --- but I will challenge you or anyone who misapplies scriptures to teach other people to do so. What Jesus and apostle Paul taught is that each person should decide for himself; they did not suggest any percentage whatsoever and remember that both Jesus and Paul knew about OT tithing (including your Abraham and Jacob) ---- yet at no time did either Jesus or Paul suggest it should be used as an example or "principle"!

@debosky

Before I break down Deuteronomy 26 and "giving" down further, I have a question.

If you are following "PRINCIPLE" and especially the "PRINCIPLE" in Deuteronomy 26, how come you are giving your own "tithes" or 10% into a church?

Why don't you follow "PRINCIPLES "and "give" your "tithes" or 10% to today's equivalent, in "PRINCIPLE", of Levites, widows and orphans?

Why should anyone "pay" tithes? Who does one owe "tithes" to that one must "pay"? Is this "tithe" thing now a debt that one must "pay"?

@ Zikky re post 275

Well said, Zikky!

Yep, a person can choose to make his own giving 10% BUT you can't go teaching/preaching this to other people. Again, the apostle Paul whose writing on giving is often quoted did not do it; even Jesus Christ Himself did not do it! And it is not as if neither said anything about giving; they both said a LOT about giving but never with reference to 10% and NEVER by recommending to anyone to cross-reference their giving to "tithes"!

Again, 10% giving is not taught or mandated even in the Old Testament; what it says is to share part of the tithe, in agricultural form, with Levites, widows, orphans etc. To misapply that as mandating giving 10% can be compared with the same passages on tithing where the tither was supposed himself to eat part of the tithe ----- should we then take it that as a person was "mandated" to eat "tithe", he should now today be giving 10% to himself?

debosky:
It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more. . . .

I realise you preface this by saying it is your personal belief - but "giving" was NOT mandated in the Old Testament as 10%. In fact even the apostle Paul who wrote the NT passages that are oft quoted on "giving" did not mention, specify, let alone mandate 10%!

In my view the teaching of "tithing", especially as it is done overwhelmingly contemporarily, must not only be challenged, it must be condemned.

Even preaching "tithing" as a "voluntary" act is only tolerable and not really acceptable, strictly speaking. Anyone who wants to teach/preach Christian truth must teach/preach GIVING ----- giving cheerfully as the Christian decides in his own mind ---- in whatever percentage s/he can  afford. What is more this giving is not supposed to be made into a "church" (or the deceitful "storehouse" alone ----- but in particular to help the poor and needy; yes, that malam in your street, that fellow who needs school fees, who needs to pay hospital bills, who needs food for himself and family. This is what Jesus and the apostles taught! Neither Jesus nor any of the apostles taught "tithing" for Christians.

I'm afraid we have to say it: contemporary "tithes" teaching is a SCAM for the most part!

And you know why the scam works so successfully?

Among others:

People's fear: "if I do no tithe, the devourer will come at me"!

People's greed: "when I 'pay' my tithes, I will see manifold blessings"

It is all lies --- the "tithe-payers" are being played for mugs because of their own folly. Those who teach/preach the so-called "voluntary" "tithing" are aiding and abetting the scam artists.

Ah Bros, thanks; let me know when you are headed this way. In fact, I too am headed to Naija later this year and if things work out well, I should be there (maybe on and off) for the best part of Nine months.

Yep, I really really like that Genesis 18:25; shall not the Judge of the whole earth do right. This and other passages as well as general human reasoning is why I cannot at the moment argue "universalism" beyond accepting it as a possibility.

I mean, what is the "judgment" then of the wicked; of Hitler, of false teachers and Bible twisters, of Pol Pot etc; I have to admit that I have yet to resolve these issues for myself.

nuclearboy:
@Kunle:

While you freely admit that you don't know, yet you know that some have missed it. Your posts on this forum also show condemnation for the mis-interpreters of God's Word (especially concerning tithes ). Would you then find it logical that scammer/scammed and truly righteous end up together?

(Bolded by Enigma)

Bros, I understand what you are saying e.g. how could say Hitler and say the apostle Peter both be "saved" (one of them, Hitler, "eventually". I have to say though that having personally thought about this ---- I believe that God is "BIG" enough to do it! Again, like Kunle, I confess that I don't know and I am not insisting this is what will happen ---- BUT from my perception of God and even from some Bible passages this is quite conceivable!


Also related I think dapsycool raises some very important points in Post No 72 which are worth very serious thought.

This may come as a surprise but I have to be honest in saying that I too have toyed/flirted with "universalism" for some time ---- but I am not yet convinced of it fully because of certain passages in the Bible. There is some, but not by any means, conclusive (at least yet for me) support in the Bible for the idea that not only all mankind but indeed the whole of creation will be saved.

Rationally (i.e. extra-biblically), I think this position accords far more with the view of God as an all loving omnipotent God who always knew what He wanted to do.

At this moment, however, I cannot honestly argue "universalism" with absolute certainty or conviction.