₦airaland Forum

"Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words." att. St. Francis of Assisi.

luckyCO:
Please I need more explanations.

Go and do the assignment you were given i.e. do the study recommended!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The people changing the song are misinformed.

Joagbaje:
This is good, at least you acknowledge  the fact that CEC members have insights that many lack into the scriptures

Nope! As ever, your poor comprehension means you misunderstand my post. The "insights" of CEC members that we have seen here are mostly heresies!

Joagbaje:
A christian is born in the image of God. he is part of God.  So the song is not apllicable to the new creation.

Again, as ever, you don't know what you are talking about and display your ignorance with typically misplaced arrogance. As has already been pointed out above, the song is quite accurate.

Joagbaje

You should be careful about pride and conceit which are unfortunate inevitable by-products of some aspects of WoF doctrine. Statements like "I am greater than John {the baptist}" are unbecoming of a Christian and are a manifestation of (a) pride and (b) inadequate understanding of the Bible. A non-prideful way to understand Jesus' teaching on being "greater than John" is this: a person who has inherited and is in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John was as a man on earth ! At the moment, you Joagbaje even as a born-again person are just a man on earth; you are NOT greater than John was as a man on earth not to talk of John as a person in the kingdom of heaven.

The problem with you CEC people and WoFers generally is that you are in a hurry; you think everything is all about the present and the present on this earth; you do not realise that Jesus' greatest promises to us and our greatest hope are for the future, for the kingdom to come, for the kingdom of heaven, for the kingdom of God.

As I said to another poster yesterday: oju nkan awon ara CEC!!!

PS please be warned that you are already beginning to stray into territory in which we will have no choice but to bring you and Oyakhilome down to earth; if you continue with the arrogant display of claimed "superiority" to biblical personnel like James and John etc, you and Oyaks will get it fully from me; Kunle is being nice so far, I won't be so nice.

@luckyCO

It should nor be taboo for you to go back and do a bit of studying. OK start with the very last passage you quoted:

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. NIV

Ask yourself a few questions including how do you share in His sufferings in order that you might also share His glory!

Sorry about CEC references; you can ignore those, it was me being prickly and funny.

Just a couple of quick comments:

I also like the piece by Matto. In fact this thread was started due to my being taken by a post in the originating thread to the effect that preachers should just preach the gospel and leave the rest to God. I agree that on the whole we should not under-emphasise the actions of man in responding to the gospel; I also take the point made and described as "say it and become it"; I interprete that to the effect that when a person accepts the gospel he is guaranteed God's promise of salvation and, in a sense, is an immediate beneficiary of it. A lot of the relevant scriptures have already been referred to and in particular those saying "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"! Another that I like is this assurance: “But as many as received Him, to them gave the He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12)

E no go pass money! 

Na so one time some years ago now, the Ghanaian bobo wen Oyedepo bin put for him Ghana church come vex when them wan transfer am. The bobo kuku seize control of the church for himself. As him and him erstwhile "spiritual father" come they fight (dem bin go court sef) na him e emerge say them bin dey smuggle money from Ghana come Naija like rogues and other nefarious activities.

. . .  we have learnt that at Winners Chapel alone, over $60,000 was sent monthly from Ghana to the Nigerian headquarters of the church – tax-free! It is significant that but for the current leadership struggle in the church, the average citizen and probably the ordinary church member would never have learnt the truth of how the tithe and offering money were changed into dollars on the black market and sent to Lagos, smuggled in car tyres and what not, like some drug barons trying to launder their dirty money.

    What has been revealed so far about the strange goings-on in that church points to just one thing: a massive illegality has been perpetrated against this country and as far as we at The Chronicle are concerned, must be accounted for, no matter whose ox is gored.

http://barthsnotes./2004/06/16/winners-chapel-accused-of-tax-dodge/

http://ghananationalcouncil.org/blog/2006/01/ghanasfo_to_probe_charismatic.html

http://www.modernghana.com/news/57662/1/court-orders-cessation-of-winners-chapel-activitie.html

I suspect this question is being asked from the perspective of a CEC member! Anyway you may start your quest for an answer by taking your time to study the first passage given below together with the passages that you referred to, one of which is the second --- and indeed all the other passages that you yourself cited:

1 Tim 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Pet 5:1

The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed

_{Oju n'kan awon ara CEC!}

aletheia:
Would be nice to discuss this on a new thread.

davidylan:
^^^ I second this motion, if Enigma is willing to take the lead on it.

Enigma:
OK I will do it in a moment with a hopefully simple post. Above all I really hope it will be left to Christians, including brethren in WoF to whom I'm often harsh, BUT left alone by all these Moslem and atheist time-wasters!

Apologies folks; in hindsight, I realise that I should have placed a notice here that I had started the thread. This is the link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-429416.0.html

This thread comes about as a result of a tangent on another thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-429243.32.html#msg5882045

Naturally, an important subject like "born again" has several dimensions. However, I will point to two major aspects as a starting point for this discussion. Firstly, how does a person get "born again" AND second what is the manifestation and consequence of a person being "born again"?

1.  I think the first thing to realise is that a person is "born again" by God Himself. Even if a person comes to faith --- say s/he had no faith and turns to Christ or say s/he was a nominal Christian and returns to a deeper acknowledging faith, while we can mark that event as a momentous realisation, the actual "borning" again is done by the Spirit of God, by God Himself.

John 1:12-13

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13  who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, it has to be realised that there is a conundrum and a much deeper debate with this point. This has been seen over the years in debates involving predestination v freewill, Calvinism v Arminianism etc etc etc. Those debates have their place and in a way we may for instance summarise one aspect thus: which comes first to the "born again" man --- faith before regeneration or regeneration before faith? But, leaving all that aside my main point is that it is not simply a person's decision e.g. after the so-called "altar call" that results in that person being "born again" but the action of God Almighty through the Holy Spirit.


2. The manifestation of a person being born again should be a new heart and a mind that seeks to do right; but what does it mean to seek to do "right"? It means to seek to conform one's action to the teaching of Jesus Christ. {Digression: this is where I get hyper with WoF doctrine as the whole consequence of WoF doctrine is to turn its believer entirely against the teachings of Jesus Christ!!!} One will not always get it right because of the weakness of the flesh but with the help of the Spirit it should be possible to so conduct oneself that even the world will say but "s/he is different to be honest".

The consequence of being "born again" is that God assures the "born again" person of his/her eternal destiny. You can even feel and know this assurance; it is like an enveloping of love, an enveloping of assurance, like a "tangible" feeling of being in God's hands.

Romans 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

So here's a start; let's hope the discussions will be fruitful and beneficial.

davidylan:
^^^ I second this motion, if Enigma is willing to take the lead on it.

OK I will do it in a moment with a hopefully simple post. Above all I really hope it will be left to Christians, including brethren in WoF to whom I'm often harsh, BUT left alone by all these Moslem and atheist time-wasters!

JeSoul:
Cool. So I contend the church should not be concerning herself with "how many people have been converted" but rather preaching the undiluted gospel and those who will be saved, will be saved.

 I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all. . . .

I really like this post and agree with the important point being made. It of course also ties with what it really means to be "born again" as opposed to "decisionism" -- but I run the risk of digression.

On the main topic, I think a lot of good points have already been made. Ideally, our regular or frequently recurrent, e.g. weekly, fellowship should consist of a relatively small group where basically everyone knows everyone and people can be comfortable and reasonably open with each other. Also, seeing each other's need people can support one another both materially and spiritually. On the other hand, firstly it is a good idea to occasionally meet with a wider part of the universal or "catholic" body. Secondly, the reality of modern living has to be acknowledged and it may be that for various reasons meeting, i.e. regular fellowship, in a relatively larger body is either unavoidable or even desirable in one's particular circumstances.

In any assembly, be it of two persons or 1 million, there will not be one single person who is perfect. No not your pope, not your arch-bishop, not your "G.O.", not your "senior pastor" etc. However, the mega-church structure is particularly inadvisable. It essentially becomes an organisation; an organisation needs to be maintained; maintenance needs money; money often breeds corruption. The result is megalomaniacs, some of whom might have started with genuine intentions, but who turn to false doctrine, deception and even outright fraud to maintain both their organisation and their own megalomania.

Also, the mega-church structure tends to breed shallow Christians poor on doctrine but more focused on the organisation; their pride is in having a megalomaniac, the largest auditorium, the largest gatherings etc etc etc.

It will not be surprising if the fellow in the story in the thread linked below is also a member of CEC!


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-412049.0.html#msg5871342

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ti2428BupyUJ:thepmnews.com/2010/03/11/man-defrauds-elizade-motors-in-jesus-namedefrauds%3Fversion%3Dprint+%22i+acted+on+my+faith%22+elizade&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

The original link seems not to be working atm; maybe this cached version will stay longer!

EDITED: For fear of losing all links, I will quote the whole report here:

Man Defrauds Elizade Motors In Jesus’ NameDefrauds
March 11, 2010 17:09 (23 minutes ago)

By Paul sanusi

Both officials and the audience at the Somolu Magistrate’s Court in Lagos were stunned yesterday on hearing that a suspected fraudster, Obinna Uwakaneme, 29, obtained two vehicles, a Toyota Landcruiser jeep worth N14.5 million and a Toyota Yaris valued at N3.2 million when he issued a dud cheque to the tune of N17.7 million to the company.

The audience became dumbfounded when in his statement to the Anthony, Lagos Police Station, Uwakaneme, a native of Arochukwu, Abia State claimed that he used the name of Jesus Christ to perpetrate the fraud.

“I acted on the faith I have in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I did not have the money in my bank account. But I issued the cheque to the company even when I knew it was a dud cheque. I acted on my faith which made me to break the law when I wrote a cheque without the money in my bank account,” wrote Uwakaneme in his statement to the police.

The police have arraigned the suspect on a two-count charge of obtaining the two vehicles with a total value of N17.7 million under false pretence contrary to and punishable under Section 419 of the Criminal Code and also stealing the vehicles contrary to Section 390(9) of the Criminal Code, Cap. 17. Vol. 6, laws of Lagos State of Nigeria, 2003.

According to the prosecutor, Inspector Adegoke Akinlabi, Uwakaneme committed the alleged crime on 20 November, 2009, at the Elizade Motors Nigeria Limited, Anthony, Lagos, but was dragged to court yesterday.

P.M.NEWS learnt that the two cars were delivered to Uwakaneme the following day (21 November, 2009) when the company had not cashed his cheque.

The suspect quickly sold the Toyota Yaris to a Lt. Ccolonel in the Nigerian Army for the sum of N1.8 million while he contacted a car dealer on Oba Akran Avenue, Ikeja to assist him to sell the Toyota Landcruiser SUV.

The car dealer, Chike Maduabum wrote to Elizade Motors to confirm the authenticity of the sale to Uwakaneme. Before  he got a reply, the police traced the Toyota Landcruiser to his office and retrieved it.

The Army Colonel, who bought the Toyota Yaris for N1.8 million is now pleading with the court to refund his money to him since the police have withdrawn the car from him.

However, when the suspect was charged before the Somolu Magistrate’s court presided over by Mrs. B.O Osunsanmi, he pleaded not guilty to the two counts.

Mrs. Osunsanmi admitted him to bail in the sum of N500,000 with two sureties in like sum. Each of the two sureties must present evidence of tax payment while their addresses will be verified by the court.

In addition, the sureties will deposit N50,000 cash with the court. Since Uwakaneme has not been able to meet the bail conditions, he was ordered to be remanded in prison custody.

The case which had suffered three adjournments was again adjourned till 28 April, 2010 for trial.

Meanwhile, Uwakaneme will likely remain in prison custody while the trial lasts or until he could present sureties who could meet the court’s condition.

Another point to throw in from the article:

It is not difficult to get to the root of why people like Agada and his wife initially believed it was God asking him to steal hotel money for church work. There must be a different type of spirit propelling them to take such money for the church; it definitely cannot be the Holy Spirit. Someone must be under some kind of very strong spell or might have been seriously bewitched to steal millions of naira without even building a house, buying a car or even buying shoes for himself.

Also. in reply to a response from Joagbaje I made the post reproduced below:


@Joagbaje

1. You say that Oyakhilome did not know the guy! Why then did Oyakhilome write to the guy and prophesy to the guy and the guy's wife directly?

He also have a commendation letter from Pastor Chris Oyakhilome (which contain some prophecies) to show for all his "generosity". In the letter of commendation the Pastor acknowledged the donation of a generator said to be valued at over N4m. Among other things stated in the letter which was signed by Oyakhilome, it reads; "I trust you are both fine and experiencing the glory of God in a greater measure laughing your way through, " The prophecy therein says; "In your life, God will do mighty things. He will cause you to excel and lift you up so high that the world can't but take notice of you, in Jesus' name. Amen".

2. You ask if the guy gave the money to Oyakhilome and why should Oyakhilome refund money given to "God"? Well, I am not surprised that the CEC "god" is happy to receive stolen money! And of course I give you that stolen money given to CEC "pastors" is money given to the CEC "god" though not to the Almighty God. Again, below are the things/money the guy donated to the CEC "god" through the "church", can you still say these were not gifts to Chris and his organisation?

In March 2002, Lawrence Agada, an assistant pastor who was a cashier with the Lagos Sheraton Hotels and Towers, donated cash and gifts totaling N39 million to the church. Agada's donations were in installments. He bought a 2S0KVA generator valued at N4.4 million, and another 27KVA generator for NI.5 million, which he donated to a satellite branch of the church. Before then, he had given N6 million for the refurbishment of the branch, as well as N1 million for the purchase of plastic seats for the headquarters. Agada also contributed N1million to the success of a mega¬ crusade tagged Night of Bliss.

and

The Pastor of the Ifako branch of Christ Embassy confirmed that Lawrence Agada is their right hand man in the church. Everything Agada claimed he bought for the church and all the money he donated were confirmed to be true. Most of these things were found in the premises of both the headquarters and branch churches of Christ Embassy.

3. Regarding your other defences of Oyakhilome, I will simply indict you with the following points and questions from the article Christ Embassy & Stolen N39m: A Question of Integrity:

Despite all these, the overall leadership of the church is seeking to affirm the legitimacy and legality of all they received from Agada.

The issues arising from all these are both fundamental and weighty. It is not first a matter of legality but of morality and integrity.

What kind of Pastor will be collecting millions of Naira regularly from a church member (who is just a company cashier) without wanting to know how the member was getting the money?

What kind of gospel is the likes of Agada and his wife hearing that made them believe that God can ask them to be stealing to support his work?

A church that says (through her attorney) that it is not her business to know how members of her flock is doing their work in their various offices definitely gives herself away as an irresponsible church. A church that does not care about how her members come about large sum of money given as donation (which is far beyond the regular earnings of such members) is fraudulent. Such an organization can easily take blood money as donations even from armed robbers just to promote "God's work". Every God fearing person ought to be weary of such churches. I wonder how members of Christ Embassy will feel now knowing that some of the money used to power their programs, the generating plants and even chairs used in their services are bought from stolen money.

[size=14pt]What kind of spirit is really at work in Christ Embassy?[/size]

Evidently the "gospel" preached and taught in Christ embassy by 'opaks Oyaks' Oyakhilome and his pastors encourages stealing! Reproduced below is part of a post I made on a parallel thread.

In March 2002, Lawrence Agada, an assistant pastor who was a cashier with the Lagos Sheraton Hotels and Towers, donated cash and gifts totaling N39 million to the church. Agada's donations were in installments. He bought a 2S0KVA generator valued at N4.4 million, and another 27KVA generator for NI.5 million, which he donated to a satellite branch of the church. Before then, he had given N6 million for the refurbishment of the branch, as well as N1 million for the purchase of plastic seats for the headquarters. Agada also contributed N1million to the success of a mega¬ crusade tagged Night of Bliss.

His parish pastor, who had no money for a trip to Australia, was given N400, 000. In appreciation, Oyakhilome wrote Agada: "May God, who gives seed to the sower and bread for eating, multiply your seeds in Jesus name." Rather than receive God's blessings, Agada became a guest of the police when his employers discovered that he had stolen from them to give to the church.

Agada's employers also insisted that Oyakhilome should refund the money. But the church issued a statement admitting that Agada made donations, but refused to make a refund. A year later, Gbenga Kehinde, another member, donated to the church in similar circumstances. Then an assistant manager with Eko International Bank, Kehinde stole about N40 million from his employers and donated N 10 million to the church. That also became a messy affair.

Source

ETA also: Christ Embassy & Stolen N39m: A Question of Integrity

@Joagbaje

1. You say that Oyakhilome did not know the guy! Why then did Oyakhilome write to the guy and prophesy to the guy and the guy's wife directly?

He also have a commendation letter from Pastor Chris Oyakhilome (which contain some prophecies) to show for all his "generosity". In the letter of commendation the Pastor acknowledged the donation of a generator said to be valued at over N4m. Among other things stated in the letter which was signed by Oyakhilome, it reads; "I trust you are both fine and experiencing the glory of God in a greater measure laughing your way through, " The prophecy therein says; "In your life, God will do mighty things. He will cause you to excel and lift you up so high that the world can't but take notice of you, in Jesus' name. Amen".

2. You ask if the guy gave the money to Oyakhilome and why should Oyakhilome refund money given to "God"? Well, I am not surprised that the CEC "god" is happy to receive stolen money! And of course I give you that stolen money given to CEC "pastors" is money given to the CEC "god" though not to the Almighty God. Again, below are the things/money the guy donated to the CEC "god" through the "church", can you still say these were not gifts to Chris and his organisation?

In March 2002, Lawrence Agada, an assistant pastor who was a cashier with the Lagos Sheraton Hotels and Towers, donated cash and gifts totaling N39 million to the church. Agada's donations were in installments. He bought a 2S0KVA generator valued at N4.4 million, and another 27KVA generator for NI.5 million, which he donated to a satellite branch of the church. Before then, he had given N6 million for the refurbishment of the branch, as well as N1 million for the purchase of plastic seats for the headquarters. Agada also contributed N1million to the success of a mega¬ crusade tagged Night of Bliss.

and

The Pastor of the Ifako branch of Christ Embassy confirmed that Lawrence Agada is their right hand man in the church. Everything Agada claimed he bought for the church and all the money he donated were confirmed to be true. Most of these things were found in the premises of both the headquarters and branch churches of Christ Embassy.

3. Regarding your other defences of Oyakhilome, I will simply indict you with the following points and questions from the article Christ Embassy & Stolen N39m: A Question of Integrity:

Despite all these, the overall leadership of the church is seeking to affirm the legitimacy and legality of all they received from Agada.

The issues arising from all these are both fundamental and weighty. It is not first a matter of legality but of morality and integrity.

What kind of Pastor will be collecting millions of Naira regularly from a church member (who is just a company cashier) without wanting to know how the member was getting the money?

What kind of gospel is the likes of Agada and his wife hearing that made them believe that God can ask them to be stealing to support his work?

A church that says (through her attorney) that it is not her business to know how members of her flock is doing their work in their various offices definitely gives herself away as an irresponsible church. A church that does not care about how her members come about large sum of money given as donation (which is far beyond the regular earnings of such members) is fraudulent. Such an organization can easily take blood money as donations even from armed robbers just to promote "God's work". Every God fearing person ought to be weary of such churches. I wonder how members of Christ Embassy will feel now knowing that some of the money used to power their programs, the generating plants and even chairs used in their services are bought from stolen money.

[size=14pt]What kind of spirit is really at work in Christ Embassy?[/size]

I like this short piece: Faith of God?

Pastor Joagbaje

You suddenly got shy? Perhaps the below might jog your memory?

In March 2002, Lawrence Agada, an assistant pastor who was a cashier with the Lagos Sheraton Hotels and Towers, donated cash and gifts totaling N39 million to the church. Agada's donations were in installments. He bought a 2S0KVA generator valued at N4.4 million, and another 27KVA generator for NI.5 million, which he donated to a satellite branch of the church. Before then, he had given N6 million for the refurbishment of the branch, as well as N1 million for the purchase of plastic seats for the headquarters. Agada also contributed N1million to the success of a mega¬ crusade tagged Night of Bliss.

His parish pastor, who had no money for a trip to Australia, was given N400, 000. In appreciation, Oyakhilome wrote Agada: "May God, who gives seed to the sower and bread for eating, multiply your seeds in Jesus name." Rather than receive God's blessings, Agada became a guest of the police when his employers discovered that he had stolen from them to give to the church.

Agada's employers also insisted that Oyakhilome should refund the money. But the church issued a statement admitting that Agada made donations, but refused to make a refund. A year later, Gbenga Kehinde, another member, donated to the church in similar circumstances. Then an assistant manager with Eko International Bank, Kehinde stole about N40 million from his employers and donated N 10 million to the church. That also became a messy affair.

Source

ETA also: Christ Embassy & Stolen N39m: A Question of Integrity

@Joagbaje

When one chap stole money from his employers some years ago to buy generator etc for CEC, what was Oyakhilome's response after the news broke?

Interesting thread! Also interesting regarding nairaland IDs such as stimulus, shahan, syrup etc etc!

From Romans 8:16 & 17

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Image123:
@Enigma
On equating man with God, I'm yet to do that. Look before you leap. Saying God has faith and man has faith doesn't on compulsion equate man with God. There are attributes which God has which man should have, it's called godliness. e.g God has love, His children should have love. This doesn't make them equal.

What's the matter with you? I made a general post based on the OP without even reading your post, man! I suppose my point affects you because you subscribe to the same nonsense as Oyakhilome/Copeland/Hagin. Well, that is not my problem.

Going back to Oyaks - he says:

. . . . “Have the God-kind of faith; the supernatural faith that God applies. This implies that you can apply the same principles as God did throughout the scriptures and be guaranteed the same results.

Is that not equating man with the WoF god?

First a note on the "Rhapsody of Realities" thing. As can be expected, it is full of crap: take the one posted yesterday by mabell telling the reader how to increase their vocabulary when speaking in "tongues". Sheer nonsense! I did not post on the thread on which it was posted simply out of respect as the thread is meant to be devotional.

To the point on having the faith of God and God having faith, the first thing I'd like to say is that while Oyakhilome may be fooling his followers that this is some new "revelation" he is basically reproducing what people like Copeland and Hagin have said and have been saying for years; I notice that the wording used is very similar to Hagin/Copeland. In fact when next I'm in Naija I plan to buy a couple of Oyakhilome's books and peruse them for possible plagiarism --- a very common thing in WoF circles going as far back as "Dad" Hagin plagiarising Kenyon etc all over the place.

The more clever defenders of the nonsense will say that the original of Mark 11:22 did not have a preposition (whether the preposition be "in" or "of"; they will then argue that the KJV, for example, added the word "in" to get 'Have faith [in] God"; they will then argue further as Oyaks (possibly plagiarising Hagin/Copeland) does that it is not only legitimate but more accurate to insert "of" instead of "in" to get 'Have faith [of] God" --- although they then add an extra word "the" to get "Have [the] faith [of] God".

Needless to say that I much prefer the KJV rendering to the WoF rendering. I see the WoF rendering as a devious way of justifying their heresy of equating man with God; ---- such that man operates with "faith" to make things happen on the basis of the false claim that even the WoF "god" only operates by faith. Well, the WoF "god" may operate by faith, the Almighty God operates on the basis of His sovereignty and omnipotence!

http://www.africanportal.net/ABO/BibeliAtoka/PSALMU.pdf

http://www.africanportal.net/ABO/BibeliAtoka/

Just found an old post of mine from 2005 as quoted below (good excuse for reviving this thread!). Actually going through some very old posts reminds me that we are often just going round in circles ---- maybe not so bad as there are always new folk minds to disabuse and 'older' ones to remind of some things. 

ETA Link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-3885.96.html#msg136874

Enigma:
Below are statements by four highly placed and highly read Christians, that I personally respect, making statements that non-Christians can go to heaven. Of these four, Billy Graham is probably the most well known evangelist in the world in the past few decades and it can be argued that as far as can be seen no one living presently has done more than him (publicly) to "win souls for Christ". The others are all respected by millions of Christians worldwide; I even included a Nigerian because of the audience of this forum.

I think if people like these can say it is possible for non-Christians to go to heaven, people who argue otherwise should think twice and take time to think about other possibilities.




1.   Robert Schuller & Billy Graham Interview (Sorry I can’t find a link for the interview on its own without misguided negative comments)



Reported by The Christian News October 20, 1997

"Schuller: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

Graham: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious, of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ, I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said that God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for his name whether they come from the Muslim world, or Buddhist world, or the Christian world, or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ, because they've been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus, but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and they're going to be with us in heaven."

Schuller: What, what I hear you saying, that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and soul and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

Graham: Yes, it is, because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Schuller: I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There a widness in God's mercy.

Graham: There is. There definately is"



2.  Archbishop of Canterbury says Non-Christians Can Go to Heaven



3.  Pope says Non Christians Can Go to Heaven



4. Cardinal Arinze says it is possible to get to heaven without accepting Jesus.

During a group discussion of religious leaders from around the world, held at the Thanksgiving World Assembly in Dallas, Texas, in March of 1999, Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, is quoted as follows:

"(A document from the Second Vatican Council) says that God's grant of salvation includes not only Christians, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus and people of good will. That is, a person can be saved, can attain salvation, but on condition that the person is open to God's action. , " ,

Robert Ashley, news director at Dallas radio station KHVN-AM, asked Cardinal Arinze: "So you can still get to heaven without accepting Jesus?"

Cardinal Arinze answered: "Expressly, yes (he laughs with the audience)."

Source:  'If God himself gave freedom', article © March 20, 1999, by Brooks Egerton, staff writer of The Dallas Morning News, third edition, page 1G.




PS apologies: now edited to fix codes for links!

Sceptic v Guru ------ Round 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sceptic v Guru --- Round 1 here: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpwCuv_izn4&feature=related

Happy Easter, indeed.


http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/t/ctlrisen.htm

Christ, the Lord, is risen today, Alleluia!
Sons of men and angels say, Alleluia!
Raise your joys and triumphs high, Alleluia!
Sing, ye heavens, and earth, reply, Alleluia!

Love’s redeeming work is done, Alleluia!
Fought the fight, the battle won, Alleluia!
Lo! the Sun’s eclipse is over, Alleluia!
Lo! He sets in blood no more, Alleluia!

Vain the stone, the watch, the seal, Alleluia!
Christ hath burst the gates of hell, Alleluia!
Death in vain forbids His rise, Alleluia!
Christ hath opened paradise, Alleluia!

Lives again our glorious King, Alleluia!
Where, O death, is now thy sting? Alleluia!
Once He died our souls to save, Alleluia!
Where thy victory, O grave? Alleluia!

Soar we now where Christ hath led, Alleluia!
Following our exalted Head, Alleluia!
Made like Him, like Him we rise, Alleluia!
Ours the cross, the grave, the skies, Alleluia!

Hail, the Lord of earth and Heaven, Alleluia!
Praise to Thee by both be given, Alleluia!
Thee we greet triumphant now, Alleluia!
Hail, the resurrection, thou, Alleluia!

King of glory, Soul of bliss, Alleluia!
Everlasting life is this, Alleluia!
Thee to know, Thy power to prove, Alleluia!
Thus to sing and thus to love, Alleluia!

Hymns of praise then let us sing, Alleluia!
Unto Christ, our heavenly King, Alleluia!
Who endured the cross and grave, Alleluia!
Sinners to redeem and save. Alleluia!

But the pains that He endured, Alleluia!
Our salvation have procured, Alleluia!
Now above the sky He’s King, Alleluia!
Where the angels ever sing. Alleluia!

Jesus Christ is risen today, Alleluia!
Our triumphant holy day, Alleluia!
Who did once upon the cross, Alleluia!
Suffer to redeem our loss. Alleluia!