₦airaland Forum

ogajim:
Dude, now you see why we held some of those strong opinions about these folks in those "tithe" threads. The sad fact of Christianity these days is that one has to know the WORD before going in or they'll use every 419 tactic in the book to steal one's hard earned dollar.

God will certainly expose more and more of them for all to see (One day, wind go blow and expose chicken yansh )

Very much agreed, ogajim (and, in passing, we all look through a glass darkly!). I have to say though that I am very pleased with viaro's work on this thread. I had actually been looking for that clause of RCCG fundamental belief on tithes/tithing and was initially stumped to find that it was no longer on their main/central website, So it was nice to see that it had been discovered on their other sites. Do you notice that while the main/central site removes the clause on tithes/tithing, it is basically identical in other respects with the other sites? As I said before, the clause was on the main site for years ---- I am sure its removal is in part due to the kind of challenge being posed to the nonsensical doctrine by the kind of debates we have here.

I tell a story: earlier on this decade, the RCCG GO's annual prophecies were posted on the website; there followed several debates (I believe some here on nairaland --- but also on the then RCCG website forum) where the prophecies were exposed to serious ridicule; the following year, the annual prophecies posted were bland, generic and lacking specificity; I think the prophecies have been following that bland pattern (that anyone can do) since!

Tithe and Offering
Regular payment of tithe and offering is obligatory because it is God's command. It is God's way of providing for the Ministers in the Church. The ministers and other church employees are paid their food, allowance through tithe. The offering is used to cater for the needy in the Church. Tithe and Offering must be paid on every income e.g. salary, profit from business transaction, gifts, etc. Mal. 3:8-12; Gen. 14:19-20; Num. 18:20-21; Deut. 26:12-13; Lev. 27:30; Heb. 7:2-5; I Cor. 16:2; Matt. 23:23. Tithe is exclusively for the minister's welfare.

(all emphases added --- not original)

The above used to be on the main RCCG (i.e. central/global rccg.org) website for years; I notice it has been removed from the "Fundamental Belief" (sic) section. In the early days of the web some of us attacked it strenuously in web debates. I wonder how long before the rest of the RCCG websites (such as South Africa and Netherlands above and etc) also take it off; if they do, don't be deceived, they will have only gone underground with it; internally they will still be fleecing their flock with both subtle and strong arm tactics.

"Pastor" Joagbaje's version:

Joagbaje:
. . .

One of the victims of the Jos crisis Evangelist Mohamed Aliu a popular muslim leader now a Minister but not in CEC came to us for assistance, His wife was just killed in whatever market in Jos leaving him with 4 children. His car was burnt and his property. His children would have been killed had they not been in school near the Army Barracks. He was captured, dragged out of his car and they gave him 2 options of death they put arrow on his head and a mixture of cement.with a liquid substance. He chose cement drink. in his own words . As he drank it he said he remembered te tapes of pastor Chris, based on mark 16 . He began to mutter under his breath "If i drink any deadly thing , it shall not hurt me." He said he passed out.
( I felt he died) 9:am he came to himself arround 6 or 7 pm. woke up or rose up. He saw dead people all over, and bow and arrow scattered he picked bow and arrow to join the killers in disguise just to make his way to the baracks to get his kids,  To cut the story short , we gave him over a 100,000 bla bla . But the point is the message worked for him . I dont know the medical details. the only thing was he had a swollen scrotum! The message he beleived worked.
Others have died of thesame thing allover. But that doesnt mean a man should go and be drinking poison. When situation like this comes , the truth you beleive will work for you. Pastor Chris will not tell people to be tempting God.

You can verify from him yoursel Evang Mohamed Aliu. his new no. 08027943710  You can still send relief to him also.

Originally, I thought that by "bla bla", Joagbaje meant "words of confession" ---- as in "blab n grab" of Word of Faith/prosperity "gospel". Perhaps he actually meant they gave him "money"(?) --- in which case the "testimony" as erstwhile presented by Joagbaje is no more than a second-hand account and it boils down to whether we find the "testimony" and the testifier credible.

aletheia:
This story is patently false.
a) Either it is a lie being peddled by the cult of Christ Embassy to glorify their pastor and recruit new members or
b) Christ Embassy has been scammed by a con artist masquerading as an "evangelist"

BTW I live in Jos and your story doesn't sound anything like what we experienced here.

Glad to see you are fine, aletheia.

As Christians, it would please us for a story like this to be true. However, we cannot support something which is unsubstantiated and which even as presented in the opening post evinces embellishments, glorifies man and unquestioningly raises suspicion. I have seen and heard a "testimony" of similar circumstances given in an RCCG church in Lagos some years ago: bottom line was that the "testifier" used that "testimony" to ask for an offering - which is also similar to an aspect of the opening post.  What is more ---- you have only the word of the testifier; when Joagbaje first mentioned this in another thread, I got the impression that Joagbaje was directly involved in the "miracle" ---- the impression I got was that Joagbaje and others "confessed" scriptures over the man was what saved the fella. I will search for that his post and compare with the opening post because there seems to be a difference. Also look at some of the aspects of the "testimony":

mabell:
A former grand occult master and former islamic leader Mohammed Aliu who got converted to christianity shares his testimony.

First sign of embellishment --- indeed suggesting a possible tissue of lies.

He was converted to christianity in Mecca in a dramatic and spectacular way. Now, because of this when he came back, the moslems sought to kill him because after his conversion he did not just keep quiet but he went about sharing his testimony about his conversion and also preaching the gospel.He became a popular evangelist and became part of a church ministry in jos.

Second sign of embellishment --- again suggesting tissue of lies.

On the faithful day, he said he dropped his children off in school and branched by a business centre to do some printing and photocopying when a serious crisis that would almost cost him his life broke out. When the fight broke out, the moslems caught him, burnt his car and dragged him to a bush to kill him. He said he was surrounded with a bow and arrow to his head with dead bodies lying all around him. He was then given two options, to either be killed by the bow and arrow or drink a deadly mix( a mixture of cement and some poisonous chemical).

Did they drag others into the bush --- or simply kill them where they were found according to news reports?

Were the others given a choice of poison or were they simply killed by bow and arrow? Also, a lot of reports suggests that many of the sad sad killings were done by machete.


There are other gaps and things to question in the rest of the "testimony" but these are enough food for thought to start with.

selencious:
The holy spirit is the spirit of God, he lives in us(those who practice the will of God). So, I don't think itz possible to worship the holy spirit.

Have you ever seen the quote below? Do you have any idea where it comes from? If your answer to either of those is no (even if your answer is yes), then go and think about it and come back to say if you still believe what you wrote to be correct Christian doctrine!

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,

    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
   With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.

obnelly:
my oga Enigma ,i mean to say the more people we have on those satellite the better,cos we can compare the signal strenght on our receivers for improvement for example if i am having 50% signal quality on my receiver ,and yours is like 64% i will improve on my signal quality at least to match that of yours which on my part its an improvement.Getting more dishes hooked up to a particular satellite doesnt increase the signal for real.

Ah, yes!!! I do indeed agree with that.

Very good post.

I believe that your cousin's perspective on "praying unceasingly" is a good one.

Also remember that God knows what you are going to pray for even before you ask for it. Furthermore, we are taught not to make vain repetitions in our prayers. Finally, we can see the simplicity of the prayer that the Lord taught us i.e. the Lord's prayer as well as the simplicity of His own prayers as recorded in the Bible. None of these means that we cannot pray intensely of course.

Joagbaje:
But if you beleive a message as such exists , just go to the church and ask for the tape where pastor Christ said he cut himself with knife, They will get it for you. I can bet you.It never existed. its either you didnt get him right or you created your on story.

Interesting that this is the second Oyakhilome follower to refer to him (granted probably subconsciously) as Christ!!! Another follower did the same in a thread title not long ago.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I am surprised that the defenders of "word of faith" have not either come to the defence of this chap ---- or at least explain if and why they disagree with him!

blacklion:
Can some one pls assist me with my question? I'm new to all this FTA stuff so pls bear with me.

A friend in Dubai can get me the latest Strong HD decoder with recording function just like DSTV PVR. I want to know if it can work in Nigeria (Lagos). Here are the links to see what it looks like -
http://www.strong-technologies.com/frmProdDetails.aspx?id=301
http://www.strong-technologies.com/frmProdDetails.aspx?id=308

I know some models of Strong decoder are available at Alaba but my friend said these 2 above are the latest models and not yet available in naija.

Grateful for your asistance!

I will say go for the first one because of the added bonus that it can also do digital terrestrial television. Yes, both will work for satellite television when connected to a satellite dish aligned correctly.

obnelly:
its has come to a known fact now ,that the more we track nilesat signal the better and improvement in term of the signal received,

obnelly, sorry this is still wrong! You cannot increase the signal from a satellite by the fact that many dishes are pointed at it.

adewest:
The LNB belong to the brands of high gain prolific super LNB that has stand the trier of time. This is the world of high tech and as the world go round things changes dynamically  at a fast pace, so don't be left behind to those ancient story of our grand father.

We talked about that combined C/Ku LNB in seasons 1 & 2 when it was still new. It might not have caught on yet in Nigeria because of non-availability, the price and the fact that people were getting good results with the conventional ways of doing things. Also, when the combined LNB first came out there was concern about its performance efficiency.

Another dimension to "word of faith", "acting on faith", "claiming by faith", "blab and grab"!

“I acted on the faith I have in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I did not have the money in my bank account. But I issued the cheque to the company even when I knew it was a dud cheque. I acted on my faith which made me to break the law when I wrote a cheque without the money in my bank account,” wrote Uwakaneme in his statement to the police.

For full story see Man Defrauds Elizade Motors In Jesus' Name



EDITED: Cross reference Sinners In Christ Embassy,steal Millions Of Naira In Church’s Bank

Another dimension to "word of faith", "acting on faith", "claiming by faith", "blab and grab"!

“I acted on the faith I have in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I did not have the money in my bank account. But I issued the cheque to the company even when I knew it was a dud cheque. I acted on my faith which made me to break the law when I wrote a cheque without the money in my bank account,” wrote Uwakaneme in his statement to the police.

For full story see Man Defrauds Elizade Motors In Jesus' Name

To be honest, even me sef I don tire; Joagbaje case, na only divine intervention fit do am! 

On a more serious note, I have found that his post that I referred to:

Joagbaje:
Speaking Faith Or WORD OF FAITH:
faith has to be communicated in words. In the spirit realm, words are not mere sounds but "they are spirits".I need several pages to explain this but I will make it as brief as possible. If you rew up among the Yorubas , I dont know about other cultures, The acient fighters and hunters and warruors use "ogede" and "ofo" Pastor AIO will bear us out here. He was born into Ifa family  "ofo" means spoken word. You must speak it out!. Spoken words are like currency of purchase in the sprit realm.In the 70s on WNTV WE watched how two warriors would be charming each other with words. These are spiritual laws. It cut across the globe.

The word of faith is the spoken active word through our mouth. It is our "ofo" If I may borrow that word.

For the benefit of those who don't understand Yoruba, the words "ofo" and "ogede" basically mean juju incantations; what Joagbaje is referring to is a battle of spiritual (juju) powers by the exchange of "ofo" (incantations" where the person with the superior power will eventually subdue (maybe even kill) the other.

Again question for Joagbaje: apart from WoF which other Christian denomination sees Christianity and especially "faith" in this way?


ETA Compare Proverbs 18:10

The name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe.

Joagbaje:
You are wrong to say the rest of christian body does not agree . It only few ignorant folks that are being used by the enemy to attack the mesage of faith ,that is required to perfect the church in their authority against the devil.

Which Christian denomination (i.e. apart from WoF) agrees with you and WoF that:

(a) Jesus was just a man who could only act/operate by faith

(b) A Christian is "god" or "God"

(c) The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.

It  not a contradiction if I say spirits are illegal on this planet and man is a spirit. That is the reason God put man in the human body to have a legal right to function, if a man loses his body , he is out of this plane. If God must function here, he must require a physical body too. but certainly not the heavenly body.

So is satan not operating on this planet? Is satan physical? It is not illegal for satan as a spirit to operate on this planet but it is illegal for God as a spirit to do it? So as a spirit God is even less than satan, also as a spirit, on this planet?

You cannot see the daftness of the WoF logic that your man and his more serious senior heretics have fed you?


Further:

How did God appear to Moses in the burning bush again? Which physical body did He use?

How did Elijah and Moses appear with the Lord during the transfiguration?


I have confined myself to only the above in your post to keep things brief. I will make a comment though ---- you do not really understand when aletheia accuses you of gnosticism. With your constant references to "in the spirit realm"  and the way you use that phrase you might as well be practising the same religion and "faith" as occultists, witches, Fadeyi oloro, etc. In fact I do remember a post where you compared your use of "the word" to their practises.

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=407858.msg5665973#msg5665973 date=1268247676]Sometimes I wonder where their allegiance lies. With God and his Christ, or with these false ministers who wrongly divide the word of truth and feed them all the fairy tales their itching ears want to hear.[/quote]For some of these people, it seems that if Jesus Christ Himself were to come today and tell them that Oyaks is talking trash they will still follow Oyaks ---- that is the extent of the brainwashing! Afterall, they have already denigrated the teachings of people whom Jesus Christ Himself appointed and delegated first-hand including the apostles James, Paul etc. when those teachings contradict some of the heterodox nonsense that Oyaks tickles their itching ears with.

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: CEC and Pastor Oyakhilome aside, can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

[size=16pt]

The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

[/size]

---

I'm sure this is one of the "far far deeper" teachings --- but see one of the earlier sources of the teaching by WoF head honcho Kenneth Copeland

Joagbaje:
The teaching of pastor Chris is far far deeper than all these people you are calling.So there is no point making reference to word of fAith movement. Of course there are some common grounds. I don't want to know your denomination, I want to judge you by your words and the word of God.

The same way I judge Oyakhilome by the heresies that he teaches/preaches!

And in your case, even if I don't mention Oyakhilome or WoF most of what I have seen you express on this board are either erroneous, heterodox and heretical or just misinformed. Only, I know the source and origin of what you spout ----- you do not deny that they are from Oyakhilome; and I know where Oyakhilome gets his own heresies from --- it is from the Word of Faith movement. I have heard him ---- and he has never said anything that I could not trace where he got it from. So he is not saying anything "deep"; Oyakhilome's teaching that you consider "deep", "deeper", or "deepest", I reckon I am far more likely than not to call heresy.

@Joagbaje

Well, as you said you are not giving straight answers and I am not surprised. Also instructive is your manner of answering whether you are "god" or "God".

Anyway, I think I have already done enough of pestering today so I'll leave you to "think on these things".

Here again, which of these do you subscribe to? Which do you disagree with? Which do you reject?

Enigma:
. . .

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.

Quote
Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5.

Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

PS There are more that I will ask similarly after you deal with these.

Joagbaje:
@ Enigma

It will be of interest for you to know that pastor Chris does not believe in WOF movement , neither do I. Maybe when i see their constitution I will consider if I should, but I dont believe in associations. I believe in the word.If you are dealing with me , deal with me according to the word Wof or no Wof. The point is , If i say or teach , you should judge it by the word . I judge you teaching by the word , I dont need to tag you with a name or organisation. all pentecostals believes different things, Oyedepo wash feet, and use annointing oil, Deeper life dont do either. You dont say all pentecostal use oil because they dont. Wof members . if theres anything like that may teach what I agree with according to truth that doesnt mean we all believe thesame thing. Quote the bible to judge my post not this so called Wof whatever.I have deeper understanding than some of these so called Wof. It will be degrading for me to say I follow them.

You are still being duplicitous!

There are certain things that only those who subscribe to WoF doctrine believe ----- which the rest of Christianity does not believe. That is the point ---- not whether Christians disagree on some things (e.g. washing of feet as the example you use). Oyakhilome certainly teaches WoF doctrine ---- I have seen him do it; and I have seen him pass off Kenyon/Hagin teachings as though they were some revelation to himself (Oyakhilome)

Contrary to your pretense above asking for me to quote where you said you followed Kenyon's teaching, here is something you wrote not too long ago:

Joagbaje:
Kenyon was in school where some people there believe in metaphysics and some funny dotrines in his days but that didnt make him one of them. I will recomend you to read any of Kenyon's book Your life will turn arround.

Let me share a testimony with you if you care;  I used to be sick of malaria almost every week , from childhood, People told me i would grow tall , that that is why i fall sick often, I consoled myself that I will be able to play basket ball in future as a tall man. But at the age of 21,I had a miracle drug called sunday sunday medicine , Every week i just take it, i lived on that drug to prevent malaria. I came in contact with a small book by E.W.Kenyon titled "Jesus The Healer" I read and read, i realised that Jesus has borne away not just my sin but all my sickness as well. I followed the instructions in the book ,  i stopped my drugs, Malaria soon hit me ;vomitting,pains, cold ,heat,weakness. Then i remember what Kenyon taught , then I began to confess "by his stripes I was healed" "by his stripes, " etc. 30 mins after every symtoms disappeared .I had 2 more attacks later that year and no more drugs despite the mosquitoes then.ever since that time no more malaria. Now 20 years after, No more malaria.  Just a small book. I had to go and pack all kenyons books in print for my library.

Dont give the devil chance in your life, belive in Gods word. Why will I deny the things that has worked for me and is working for me and for hundreds of millions of people. Edakun jare .The word works!

See, that is not merely quoting Kenyon; that is a statement of quintessential WoF doctrine. Here is a link I have given previously regarding WoF doctrine:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

nuella2:
That is no answer. Is either you agree or disagree. What i understand by leaving me with my understanding, is like you want to "jump am pass".

Nah, I deliberately answered your question that way ----- in the hope it might make you think. Let me try another tack:

When God first asked the prophet to tell Hezekiah that he would die ----- did God know at that time that Hezekiah would plead for his life; also, did God know that He (God) would still later tell the prophet to go back and tell Hezekiah that his life was spared?

Or perhaps God could not see the future?


Perhaps God is not Omniscient ----- did He not Know that Abraham was going to plead for the people of Sodom?

If you believe that God cannot see the future, then perhaps it is easy to believe that God can get His own will wrong and then need to change it after man points out God's own error to Him!

Do you see now that we are going round in circles?

As I said before, I'll leave you with your own understanding, the questions I posed and the statements that I made on page 3 (which actually cryptically answer your last question).

nuella2:
No it do not mean you know better than God. If your father want to take you to uniport and you make him see you want unilag. Does it mean you know better than your father? God said lets reason together in his word. Once in the bible moses told God if you do this the Egyptians will say you could not take them to the promise land so you killed them, then God changed his mind.

See the bit I've underlined ---- thus:

Which would you rather have: that which God wills for you OR that which you will for yourself?

nuella2:
Which one is know better than God matter? How can i know better than God? Or are you tempting me? My point still remain that Man can change the will of God sometimes. If i say anything that is not in the bible show me, cant you talk without associating someone with this your word of faith stuff. If someone disagree with you then is word of faith, pls dont make me laugh. Whats my business if your Jehovah witness, this is a forum get use to it.

OK I wont refer to Word of Faith movement (if you like).

Second, already I am being dragged into going round in circles, which I wanted to avoid ---- so I will just leave you with the last question once again.

If you can make God change His original will (A) to another one (B), does it not mean:
(1) that God was wrong to have chosen His original will (A); and
(2) that you know better than God since you chose (B) which God later agreed with you is better than His own original (A)?

nuella2:
Its God's word not my word, if am wrong show me from the bible. Your sounding like am wrong and you dont want to waste your time. Anyway it was great chatting with you. Takia.

You are right that I sounded like I did not want to waste my time. The reason is simple: my answer to the point you made is in my post that you quoted as well as in an earlier post where I said that Christians worldwide believe in intercession --- but that is not the same as forcing/compelling (or even preventing) the will of God.

You may argue that interceding to change God's mind is the same as changing the will of God; even IF I grant you that, what still transpires in the end is the will of God ---- either as He always planned it or as His mind has apparently been changed.


If you can change the will of God, do you not think that it means you know better than God --- since the will of God was wrong or not good and therefore needed to be changed?

Anyway, I will not be surprised if you think you know better than God because in essence that is what adherents of the Word of faith movement really teach/believe ----- even if the less thoughtful ones do not realise it!

nuella2:
God planned to do something , he concluded the matter that he even sent his prophet, the man prayed and God changed his mind, period. He(man) changed the will of God. If the man didnt pray he would have died.  He changed the will of God,,,again again,,,He (MAN) prayed and God changed his mind.

If that is your understanding, you can have it; I do not see the point of going round in circles.

ogajim:
nuella, Are you or anyone in your Church in any position to know the original will of God on any given matter? If parents often use different tactics to get their kids to perform or conform, how much more our Heavenly father?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, UNCF got that right all the way

Precisely!!!!!!!!!!!! And this begins to answer the question which observers might reasonably ask ----- does God change His own mind?

Similarly, people forget that God had already decided some things "even before the foundation of the world" according to the Bible. Anyway, I reckon that discussion is probably for another thread.

nuella2:
But the man got his result abi? God changed his mind cos the man prayed? So did the will of God done at that time? My point is God's will can be changed sometimes and in some situation. God do not change, he is thesame yesterday, today and forever. Do you now agree that God's will has been changed before and can be changed today, by prayer and intercession of men?

You are confusing yourself: if God does not change, how do you change His will then?

So is it God that changes His own will/decision ----- or is it man that changes God's will/decision?

If God wills A and man wills B ----- can man bring B to pass if God does not change His mind?

Even if God does change His mind from A to B and B happens ---- was it the man that brought B to pass or was it God Himself that brought B to pass?

nuella2:
I asked a question my brother? Why is it called the lord's prayer? Is me and you with bible which one is Oyakhilome inside this matter?

OK I'll keep Oyakhilome out of it for now; (We have had to mention his name because we know that a number of those arguing the nonsense that the Lord's prayer is for babies are his followers --- as many of them have admitted. Are you or are you not a member of his church and/or not a follower of his teachings?)

Anyway, if you go back and study the Bible passages relating to when Christ taught His disciples that prayer I would expect that you would not need to ask why it is called the Lord's prayer.

nuella2:
What do you mean by will of God? Didnt God dialogue with Abraham on how to save that city? Dont bring word of faith here am quoting from the bible. So those events that were changed where what? Didnt GOD tell the man he was going to die? Did he die?

So when God dialogued with Abraham, God then needed the cooperation of Adam Abraham to make His own will come to pass? Was it not that God said to Adam Abraham, "OK I will not . . ." So how was Abraham's cooperation needed in relation to God's power for that which God would not indeed not to happen?

How about Hezekiah ---- when God said 'I have heard your prayer and I will heal you', what did Hezekiah have to do to compel God's power to do what he said 'I will' i.e. to heal him.

Christians worldwide believe in intercession; they do not see that as forcing/compelling God; they do not see the happening of that which they prayed for as something occurring by their own power or something they have made to happen --- but rather as something due to the divine grace of God.

Even Jesus Christ Himself prayed 'thy will be done' ---- was He less on the earth than the so called "mature born again man"?