₦airaland Forum

I hadn't seen this before; very fascinating thread.

Joagbaje:
Mr Aletheia . Point of correction, I am not evasive, I have answered the question twice.

No you have not answered the questions; instead you evaded them with double-speak; that is why we say you are being evasive.

Jesus will always be God. But the miracles of Jesus were not done as God, but by the power of the spirit in the man Jesus.

This is where you need to be clear. Jesus did the miracles using some of His power as God.

His question is not clear to me , if he tells me where he's going I will hit the nail on the head.

Here you are simply being duplicitous because I made clear before in post no 40 above that: What I'm getting at is that you are WRONG, and it is indeed heresy, to say that Jesus was just "a man who operated by faith".

Now This your WOF matter, If you ask if I believe in Some teaching by kenneth  Hagin, EW Kenyon. I believe in many of their teachings because they teach on faith and the new creation, Does that make me WOFa ? If it does , glory!

So just admit you are a WoFer because it is widely known by informed Christians worldwide that Hagin and Kenyon are the fathers of WoF.

This teachings contains deep truths and that is what every Christian need to hear.

No these teachings are full of heresies and the same old lies of satan in Genesis e.g. that you are god. For example you are sooo brainwashed by it that in ignorance you claim heretically earlier that you, Joagbaje, are as holy as God Almighty!! Can you not see through that one claim that WoF teaching is leading you directly back to satan --- the same way satan persuaded Eve (and Adam) that they shall be as God?


RUN for your life from WoF and from the teachings of Kenyon and Hagin (who was a pathological liar!).

Now you find some individuals in bondage of ignorance ,who dont have the the infilling of the holyghost attack those who have the spirit.

How do you know who has the infilling of the Holy Ghost or not. Oh, I forgot you are "god"! And don't come back with "by their fruit" . . . because we know very well the fruit of WoF doctrine.

I have seen some of these sites before , and I wonder " do we still have people as ignorant in this age?" You should get to study materials on faith yourself. If study on faith is what makes a man WOF in your definition Then I will be glad to say I am.

Studying faith is good, if it is faith as taught in the Bible; studying "faith" as taught by WoF is dangerous - both spiritually and materially!

@aletheia

Amen (not being 'religious'; I just agree; so once again, Amen).


@ Joagbaje

I am genuinely and honestly sorry if/that I offended you. My problem is that it offends me to the very depth of my being to see anyone misled by and repeat WoF doctrine which goes contrary to the teachings of Christ Himself, contrary to the teachings of the apostles, contrary to the Bible (because it is twisted or contradicted by "revelation knowledge", contrary to "historic Christianity" over the ages. Secondly while Christians (focusing on Western Christianity as opposed to e.g. Eastern Orthodoxy etc) may disagree on many things e.g. tithing, baptism of children etc. in terms of seriousness of doctrine, these are minor things --- and do not lead to a parting of ways. When it comes to the person of the CHRIST, differences on His person and status ultimately tend to lead to a parting of ways --- the parting of ways is part of the original meaning of "heresy".

Now to the crucial point: in today's Western Christianity most of us, despite our differences, are agreed on the person and status of Christ. The principal group that differs from the rest of us are those who adhere to the WoF view of the person and status of Christ ---- i.e. that He was "just a man who operated by faith."  This is heresy to the rest of us in Western Christianity and we have no choice but to declare WoF adherents as heretics to us.

I would like to say I will not refer to you as a WoFer but I cannot honestly do it. The reason is very simple: although you may not have known it until now, you are always repeating WoF doctrine; you have also referred to people like E W Kenyon, Fred K C Price as people whose teachings you follow; well these are major WoF leaders; inasmuch as you repeat here their teachings you are a WoFer. Another reason why I cannot totally promise to stop is that I want to warn others in your shoes ---- to be aware of the sources of the doctrines that they believe i.e. from the WoF teachers and, in my view, ultimately from the deception of satan.


After having said all that, I want to return to a positive tone. Please pay plenty of attention to aletheia's post; study the Bible again and compare your understanding of kenosis to what aletheia explained. Finally, look up and study something called "the hypostatic union." (EDIT: I see, belatedly, that aletheia also referred to the Hypostatic Union)

God bless (genuinely meant and not just religious spout)

chinedumo:
Agape love is the love jesus should (showed) on the cross. He died for all not believers alone. they were hardly many believers. many will eventually/later become believers. but at present, the time in which u showed love to them they were unbelievers. it is this love that draws them to repentance. If they slap u on one check turn the other. If they take your coat give them your cloak. this is what Jesus did on the cross. after the centurion had finished crucifying him he said truly this man was the son of GOD. Agape love is not self seeking it is life giving/sacrificing.
Pls how did I misinterpret scripture and allow rubbish to infiltrate?

chinedumo

That's quite a good enough description of agape love. Unfortunately, in our weakness we tend not to be able to do it or to do it often enough!

You see, "Pastor" Agbaje, an informed Christian will give automatic straightforward answers to those questions without hesitation. An informed Christian will not go through the rigmarolle of your lengthy post. As can be expected, however, a person who subscribes to the WoF heresy and such similar will not be able to give direct answers to those questions (below again) and will be playing cat and mouse and deceiving himself.

One more chance for you, here are the questions again:


1. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He God or not?

2. When Jesus was born, was He God or not?

3. When Jesus was aged 12, was He God or not?

4. At age 30 just before His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

5. Immediately after His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

6. When He did all His miracles, was Jesus God or not?
 

ETA: after we resolve this issue of these questions, I will try and deal with some nonsenses and heresy in your last post above; see, WoF doctrine is full of heresy and because you are steeped in WoF doctrine you spout loads of heresy --- but the one redeeming thing is that you seem to honestly believe the heresy that you spout!

jaffi:
Psalm 82 the latter part was talking about you-that don't believe in that ye are gods
he said you shall die like mere men.
sickness
diseases
lack and want
etc
all those thing that are not meant for the children of God but,those that don't believe or function in this reality will suffer the same economic depressions,diseases sickness etc others suffer.

as for revelation knowledge?
has God revealed anything to you before?
Do u have the holy Ghost inside of you?i know you do if Jesus is your lord so question what is the ministry of the Spirit of God?

jaffi

May God open your eyes. Here is psalm 82:6-7 together:

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

So which part is talking to different people?

As I said, may God help you!

Joagbaje:
Jaffi,
There are things you can't discuss with babies , just give them milk because they will be offended at meat.any one who hasn't recieved the holyghost will definately have problems with the word of God. But the kingdom has to move on. We can't wait,those who can catch up will run along

As for you Joagbaje, God will deliver you from heresy, from the brainwashing that you have received and from the latterly revealed arrogance with which you are trying to mislead others into your heresy.

jaffi:
From the links you gave
no scriptural references.
and the facts listed are wrong, base on what the bible says.
Reason 3: we are gods as christian.
read psalm 82.

Reason 1: To even know that there is a God in heaven it must be by revelation knowledge thru the scriptures.
what do you think?
we have not seen  God at anytime or have you?

i don't understand you pple that is against faith!
it's only the lazy pple that are against faith message 'cos it put responsibilities on you and they don't wanna responsible.

You are wrong on many levels but I will deal with only one and just refer to another briefly.

OK you believe you are a "god" because of Psalm 82:6, right?

OK Psalm 82:6 says

I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

You believe that Psalm 82:6 is referring to you, right?

OK then but the speech directed to "YOU" continues in Psalm 82:7 and says this:

But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Do you still think the passage is saying that "YOU" are a god ---- a god that shall die like a man and fall like one of the princes?

Now, who do you think is "lazy" and has not studied the scriptures; could it be YOU ---- which makes it easy for charlatan "pastors" to brainwash you?


The second point I will deal with is your reference to "revelation knowledge". What you do not realise is that "revelation knowledge" is code that "pastors" use to deceive you by saying "God told me"; "God revealed to me" ----- when they are just spouting the evil from their hearts with which they brainwash you.

Joagbaje:
I dont know what you are getting at. He did the works by faith and the power of the spirit.

What I'm getting at is that you are WRONG, and it is indeed heresy, to say that Jesus was just "a man who operated by faith".

OK here are some other simple questions.


1. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He God or not?

2. When Jesus was born, was He God or not?

3. When Jesus was aged 12, was He God or not?

4. At age 30 just before His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

5. Immediately after His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

6. When He did all His miracles, was Jesus God or not?

Joagbaje:
It is very simple, When Jesus turned water to wine,healed the sick raised the dead, he did them as a man by the power of the holyghost. You have to remember Jesus didnt do any miracle until he received the (empowerment) the holyghost.

You are still playing games; here is the question again even simplified further.

Did Jesus do these miracles as a man using and "operating by faith"?

Joagbaje:
And I dont know what you guys call WOF or WOfa  movement. I dont know what it stands for, Even though it sounds nice to me, Ill rather be called "son of God" or saint or new creation. No association or movement . God is in his word and not in movements. The word is constant, You cant call a man a name he didnt call himself.

What you spout here everyday incessantly is Word of Faith/prosperity "gospel" theology; the only thing is that you probably think it is divinely revealed to your master Chris Oyakhilome not realising that even he is just regurgitating what his even more serious and more senior heretics have been saying for years --- and using that to dazzle you! You are firmly and staunchly part of the Word of Faith movement, my friend; FLEE before it damages you further.

Joagbaje:
Jesus was both man and God. He calls himself son of man. We know the word was God. But he came as man, only a man could defeat satan. If God should defeat satan it would be injustice. He was also called the seed of the woman.

This is double-speak to avoid facing the truth. OK, I simplify it --- answer these two/four questions:

1. When Jesus turned water into wine did He do it by His power as God; OR did He do it as a man "using and operating by faith"?

2. When Jesus raised the son of the widow at Nain from the dead, did He do it by His power as God; OR did He do it as a man "using and operating by faith."

jaffi:
. . . .
but the word of faith movement is it of God or not of God??

Read these for starters:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

http://www.intotruth.org/wof/tract3.html

Kunle, you are right and ultimately it becomes unavoidable to name names even though we tried to avoid it for the sake of peace with fellow posters like Joagbaje.

By the way does anyone notice that Joagbaje has not denied what I said about WoF doctrine in that they deny that Jesus is God and say he was just another man who "operated by faith"? I will repeat that post and let us see if Joagbaje has the courage to either confirm OR deny it.

Enigma:
This matter is so important that I consider further clarification to be necessary and to highlight it in graphic terms. What these heretics are saying is this:

Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

The only concession they will make is that "Jesus had faith without measure"

If this is wrong let Joagbaje come and deny it or explain what they believe.


If I have expressed their belief correctly, then if this is not heresy I wonder what heresy is!!!

ikhideman:
In fact, I've witnessed an instant miracle were one of an elderly man's legs that was shorter than the other grew to become equal with the other one in Abuja.

That is an old trick that any common magician can do; in fact even I can do it. If you google you might even be able to find out how it is done.

Edited See example:  http://www.symphonyofscripture.com/?p=332 and another http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=6937754ef7764fa1e11c

Kenneth Copeland in his own words including the quote above (thankfully we have Bible passages to contradict his heresies):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3yDODIkf5I

aletheia:
1. You are not discrediting Jesus. You don't believe in Him! Jesus operated as a man?

You don't know how bad this Word of Faith/prosperity "gospel" really is --- and I had been holding back.

Their current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times:

“The Spirit of God spoke to me and He said, “Son, realize this. Now follow me in this and don’t let your tradition trip you up.” He said, “Think this way — a twice-born man whipped Satan in his own domain.” And I threw my Bible down… like that. I said, “What?” He said, “A born-again man defeated Satan, the firstborn of many brethren defeated him.” He said, “You are the very image, the very copy of that one.” I said, “Goodness, gracious sakes alive!” And I began to see what had gone on in there, and I said, “Well now you don’t mean, you couldn’t dare mean, that I could have done the same thing?” He said, “Oh yeah, if you’d had the knowledge of the Word of God that He did, you could have done the same thing, ’cause you’re a reborn man too.”

This matter is so important that I consider further clarification to be necessary and to highlight it in graphic terms. What these heretics are saying is this:

Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

The only concession they will make is that "Jesus had faith without measure"

If this is wrong let Joagbaje come and deny it or explain what they believe.


If I have expressed their belief correctly, then if this is not heresy I wonder what heresy is!!!

Joagbaje:
I know you try to sympathise for Jesus.I am not discrediting Jesus , he came as a man , he operated as man. He operated by faith as we are.

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

He spoke by faith that Lazarus won't die, the guy died! But Jesus refused to give up , he refused to recognise death, he called him back alive! . We have instant miracles today and any one that is not instant we still rejoice and give thanks as well, as we appreciate God for the little ones , bigger ones will take place.

This is the work of satan's deception through Word of Faith/Prosperity "gospel" theology. They deny the deity of Christ and reduce Him to the status of "a man who operated by faith"! This is the spirit of the antichrist of which the apostle Paul John wrote.

In fact this is one of the most serious heresies of the prosperity "gospel" and the word of faith movement.

I am begging and really imploring anyone who is being seduced by this WoF/prosperity "gospel" to FLEE and run a mile ----- they are in very very serious and real spiritual danger.


Here is a link to a short piece with a good summary of the WoF/prosperity "gospel" and some of its errors and heresies: http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

(I have posted this link elsewhere before but will keep posting it as necessary)

serena001:
Hi, I have learnt so much about First Fruits from a great preacher call Paula White

Check out the links and watch the videos,  I hope this helps people to understand so much better. Am new to this  principle, and I obeyed to recieve Gods Blessings for 2010.

http://www.paulawhite.org/firstfruits

http://www.paulawhite.org/pages/media_center

God bless you all

Paula White is a very corrupt twister of the Bible and a con merchant; she needs to repent. Type just her name 'Paula White into google and open your eyes.

Genius, lastpage.   

Joagbaje

You can practice what you like; you can practice "the word works", you can follow Kenyon ----- as long as you do NOT call it Christianity! Call it "Word of Faith", "blab and grab", "health and wealth" ---- just not Christianity.

For the "testimony" you've given, you will find many who will give the same but instead of attributing it to Kenyon will attribute it to Guru Maharaji, Bhagwan, Ogun, Sango, Yemoja and such like. But those ones at least do not claim their faith to be Christianity!

There are very very extensive materials on the Internet challenging and refuting Word of Faith theology including the misapplication of scriptures (as done by Joagbaje above). However, I like to put up the link to a very brief/concise piece that could serve as a starting point for enquiry by people who have doubts or questions about the type of nonsense spouted by joagbaje as learned from the charlatan "pastors". 

See here: http://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

Joagbaje

I'm very sorry that I see you as a deluded simpleton which is why initially I took the trouble to try and explain things to you extensively on another thread; now I will not bother to that extent anymore. I will mostly just ridicule the nonsensical doctrines with which you have been brainwashed. The only thing is that I also keep praying that the likes of you will have their eyes opened by the true Spirit of God.

Joagbaje

May God deliver you from the doctrines of demons passed down to you from your jerry curled charlatan "pastor" but going far back as Hagin/Copeland and beyond them to E W Kenyon (whom Hagin plagiarised) and forth. Go and read up on Kenyon and discover his influences and the origins of some of the things that the charlatans now claim to be part of christianity!

Which "power" is hitting them? Some demonic "power"; people just falling out of a sense of "obligation" even though nothing really hit them; or an even more insidious one like the Ghanaian (or Ugandan?) "pastor" who ordered a concealable electric taser to use for his own version of "take it".

The people doing the "take it" nonsense are simplyy charlatans deceiving the gullible and the susceptible!


ETA

See more on the Ghanaian (actually not Ugandan but at the time Uganda-based) pastor who ordered electric shock machine here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-66065.0.html and also the BBC Report http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6294666.stm

immargee:
So when pastor Chris shouts TAKE IT!!!!! and all of those people fall at once and those littile white chairs go flying everywhere all on top of the people behind them nobody ever gets hurt? or trampled on? all of those people falling on top of each other and the chairs flying with them no body ever realizes , hey you kicked me! or get off of my face?

Nah, understand this in context; those who fall as part of the orchestration (even when they do it not because they were specifically told to but becuase they believe it is expected of them) generally do not get hurt; however, you are right that some people do get hurt when it occurs in mass hysteria.

Joagbaje:
Eeyaah! You now even insult the bible too.

James 1:22
    But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

[/color]

Joagabaje 

The above is all I will bother to reply to -- and even that only because I want to make a clarification between you WoFers' "doing the word" and James' "doer of the word".

I will start with you WoFers' "doing the word"; you see "the word" as magic incantation just like babalawos, shamans, native doctors and other juju people. You believe 'if you confess and stand on the word' then that which you desire ("believing god for" will happen; well, keep deluding yourselves ----- with overwhelming majority of your people "confessing prosperity" still remaining poor!

Now to James' admonition to be "doers of the word" ----- he means something totally different from you WoFers; he means do good, lay aside filthiness. How does that compare to the WoF nonsense.

Here is a slightly fuller quotation of the passage (using NKJV):

James 1:21-22

Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

By the way, that self-same chapter James 1 has a few words for prosperity "gospel" mongers:

James 1: 9-11

Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation, but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away. For no sooner has the sun risen with a burning heat than it withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beautiful appearance perishes. So the rich man also will fade away in his pursuits.

Or how about this for those who say by being a christian "doing the word" you will not be sick or have any trouble etc

James 1: 2-4

My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have [its] perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

It would be rather helpful if all this "doing the word", "blab and grab", "name it and claim it", "health and wealth", "prosperity 'gospel'" people had the decency to agree that their "faith" (or whatever they call it) is not Christianity. They can call it "Word of Faith" or any other thing they like. That way we would take them for what they are.

What annoys us is that just as satan, the vomitter of this "Word of Faith"/prosperity "gospel" himself masquerades as an angel of light, the head boys of Word of Faith from the Kenneths Hagin & Copeland down to the Nigerian honchos including the jerry curled charlatan want to present their diabolical beliefs and practices as part of christianity.

"Doing the word" my foot"! That is why most adherents of prosperity "gospel", certainly in Nigeria are still poor; that is why many are sick and die of diseases that might easily be cured if there were adequate medical facilities.

Let the WoFers as we call them just go away from Christianity --- and we will leave them to their ways!

MRbrownJAY:
. . . people are still gullible!

Like poor poor and pitiful Joagbaje - thoroughly brainwashed by the jerry curled charlatan!

Amendra and Mila Prakash . . .  are looking for a miracle for their terminally ill [10 year old] son, Ashnil. We watch as Benny Hinn practises the "laying on of hands" on Ashnil. He tells the Prakash family to "expect a miracle". Amendra Prakash, not a wealthy man, pledges $2,000 to the Hinn Ministry. Seven weeks later, their son is dead.

Taken from http://www.openbibleforum.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=194 (though I don't agree with everything on that site!) or google 'Benny Hinn Ashnil Prakash.'


The same thing happened at his Nigerian crusade; one chap who was hoping for healing from cancer travelled down from London; he got on the stage at the crusade and his healing was declared; a week later the chap died.

Incidentally, perceptive people will notice that the jerry curled one in Nigeria with particularly brain-washed followers models himself on Taofeek Benny Hinn including the white suits and shoes and the "take it" nonsense. Shio to all them workers of iniquity.

Kaiser5000:
. . . I if quit my job now open up a place of service, study the bible 24/7 so that i can quote it proficiently and have my congregation support my lifestyle, does that make an anointed man of god?

It does in the eyes of many deceived people! Also, many will be afraid of you because of "touch not my annointed." Only here we "touch", shove and knock all them fake "anointeds"! 

KunleOshob:
. . . it's a well ochestrated drama!

Like with wrestling back in the day; as school boys we used to think the thing was genuine until we started seeing that the whole thing was 'orchestrated' and planned before hand.

For those of a certain age who would remember Mighty Igor, the only real (not orchestrated) fight he ever had was in our very Lagos and Ray Apollon scattered his head with head butt.

We only pray that many people's eyes will become similarly open to all these fake "slaying in the spirit", "falling under the anointing" nonsense!

GODSON2009:
. . . ask any redeemed member to tell u the time pastor adeboye prophecised at redemption camp some years ago that GOD told him that if everybody in that holy ghost service should die that day,only 5 or 11 people will make heaven

And you believed the pastor?? Which "god" told him that?