₦airaland Forum

Traugott:
@Enigma: What was abolished in the Old Covenant is the compulsion of tithes and circumcision, and not the acts or the ideas themselves! But we are entitled to our opinions, as long as we don't mislead others thereby. Have a great week ahead!

Traugott:
@Enigma: Abuse is the result of unbeknown purpose. Did you ever ask WHY God asked the Jews to be circumcised? It was not only for spiritual value, it was for medical reasons, to keep them healthy and sanctified.

The circumcision that was "abolished" is the removal of the notion that a full grown man has to be circumcised before he can be considered Holy before God. If it is easier to circumcise a baby, and it will be good for his health then it is entirely foolish not to circumcise the child because "circumcision has been abolished". Circumcision was not abolished, I repeat. Rather, it is no longer compulsory to be circumcised before you are holy unto God.

Do you see this in light of your argument on tithes being abolished? To see it, you need to ask: WHY did they tithe to God in the first place? If you cannot answer that question then the same fallacy of "circumcision being abolished" that you made above, will be made again.

@KunleOshob: It would be better next time to say it in full "Tithing compulsorily is abolished", and not "Tithing based on the law is abolished" or "Tithing is abolished" because the last two statements are wrong. And when you say what is preached in MOST churches, how are we to believe you? What is your statistical finding on this point? When you rally against the twisting of the scriptures, you should not also twist the scriptures to support your own points, saying tithing has been abolished.

@Viaro: Na so, my brother. That was why I googled anselm.com tithes cos I wondered when I got to anselm.com 

Traugott:
Yes I can sustain it with the fact that you insist that "tithing has been ABOLISHED", rather than saying that tithing is no longer compulsory, but done out of an act of love.

That's my point.

Finally, I want to use the example of debosky to demonstrate one of the things that we who oppose compulsory tithing have been saying. debosky said he does not believe that tithing is a compulsory requirement for the Christian but, personally, he has made a decision to tithe. Two things gladden my heart about this: the first is the personal example of debosky himself (i.e. informed choice); the second is the reaction of my fellow opponents of compulsory tithing who praised debosky for his stance. I want to join in that praise.

Traugott:
Precept by precept? Tell me, Enigma. Do you not understand that whatever you give attention to, in the spiritual, multiplies in effect? The more you decry tithing, the more people will tithe out of fear. THAT IS HOW FEAR WORKS, MY BROTHER! And I'm surprised that you don't know that. Preaching anti-tithing will just increase the number of those implementing compulsory tithing. Rather, let them see the truth as well.

Traugott:
Truth? There are two lies running around:

1. Tithing is EVIL and wrong. (Ministry of anti-tithing, will prevent those who seek to tithe genuinely)
2. Tithing is a must, otherwise you will suffer (Ministry of fear)

I will not support either lie, but rather I will endeavour to use Scriptures to clarify my position to either party without generating strife.

PS if you search the forum, you can find gazillions of posts by me, by Kunle and by many others that: if a Christian knows that there is no obligation to "tithe" but chooses to do so, we have no problem with that ----- in fact, Kunle just said so in one of his last posts on this very thread.

Traugott:
[b]Edit:[/b]The way you go about your views on tithes, you make it appear like you have no regard for those who tithe out of understanding, like I do sometimes. And trust me, I have good understanding of how tithes work for me.

PS if you search the forum, you can find gazillions of posts by me, by Kunle and by many others that: if a Christian knows that there is no obligation to "tithe" but chooses to do so, we have no problem with that ----- in fact, Kunle just said so in one of his last posts on this very thread.

Enigma:
. . .

PS if you search the forum, you can find gazillions of posts by me, by Kunle and by many others that: if a Christian knows that there is no obligation to "tithe" but chooses to do so, we have no problem with that ----- in fact, Kunle just said so in one of his last posts on this very thread.

Traugott:
Enigma, the thing is that I do not believe in forcing spiritual principles down people's throat. That is the way of the mule. Or in telling them what to do without any explanation: the way of the horse.


Rather, I believe in laying down precepts step by step and clarifying any step for those who dont understand.

The "facts" that a pastor has drummed into someone's ears for decades cannot be simply unearthed by using arguments. One must open their eyes and see for themselves: precept upon precept.

Traugott:
@Enigma: As to your first set of questions,


3. It is unfortunate that many so-called Christians do not have a heart to give, and so some pastors have to MAKE them give by instituting tithes and declaring it compulsory, driving fear into their hearts if they do not pay the tithe. It is very unfortunate, and it makes me really sad. If the people would independently have a heart to give, pastors wouldn't need to resort to such things. They would tell them the truth. {Edit: emphasised by Enigma}

See how this applies to giving out of love, and to paying tithes out of fear.

1Jn 4:18  There is no room in love for fear. Well-formed love banishes fear. Since fear is crippling, a fearful life--fear of death, fear of judgment--is one not yet fully formed in love.
1Jn 4:19  We, though, are going to love--love and be loved. First we were loved, now we love. He loved us first.
1Jn 4:20  If anyone boasts, "I love God," and goes right on hating his brother or sister, thinking nothing of it, he is a liar. If he won't love the person he can see, how can he love the God he can't see?
1Jn 4:21  The command we have from Christ is blunt: Loving God includes loving people. You've got to love both.

You cannot be truly generous without loving people and God. But, driven by fear, you can "pay" tithes without loving people, and without any wholesome regard for God.

Traugott:
@Enigma: I counter felifeli's statement, and I say this, sir

Psa 112:1  Hallelujah! Blessed man, blessed woman, who fear GOD, Who cherish and relish his commandments,
Psa 112:2  Their children robust on the earth, And the homes of the upright--how blessed!
Psa 112:3  Their houses brim with wealth And a generosity that never runs dry.
Psa 112:4  Sunrise breaks through the darkness for good people-- God's grace and mercy and justice!
Psa 112:5  The good person is generous and lends lavishly;
Psa 112:6  No shuffling or stumbling around for this one, But a sterling and solid and lasting reputation.
Psa 112:7  Unfazed by rumor and gossip, Heart ready, trusting in GOD,
Psa 112:8  Spirit firm, unperturbed, Ever blessed, relaxed among enemies,
Psa 112:9  They lavish gifts on the poor-- A generosity that goes on, and on, and on. An honored life! A beautiful life!
Psa 112:10  Someone wicked takes one look and rages, Blusters away but ends up speechless. There's nothing to the dreams of the wicked. Nothing.

We should never blur the distinction between tithes and generosity. Jesus kept on preaching about generosity of material things, generosity of heart (selflessness), generosity of spirit (a craving for things of God, above physical things). What felifeli said in the quote above applies to generosity, and not to tithes.

One may not pay tithes and yet be generous, and be established in peace. The MOTIVE counts very much with God.

felifeli:
. . . . . If you don't pay your tithe it DOES NOT hinder you from getting to heaven. It only hinder you from living under God's prosperity insurance plan while you are on earth. The truth is that you will pay the tithe one way or the other  either to the use of God or you find yourself using the money to pay medical expenses , armed robbers (and police and omo oniles) ,  booze, expensive affairs etc etc . Examine your life and see if this is not true. If you have been paying your tithe before, just neglect to pay it once (even on time) and you will be amazed at how much troubles suddenly come your way.

Yes , tithing or not has nothing with being a good Christian. It only makes your Christian life more enjoyable.

Traugott:
. . . We may disagree that tithing was abolished in the New Covenant or it was not, but we have one common point: we agree that it is not compulsory or perforce. If then tithing is not compulsory or perforce, I personally don't see why those who want to go ahead and give it (not compulsorily) should not! . . . .

felifeli:
. . . If you don't pay your tithe it DOES NOT hinder you from getting to heaven. It only hinder you from living under God's prosperity insurance plan while you are on earth. The truth is that you will pay the tithe one way or the other  either to the use of God or you find yourself using the money to pay medical expenses , armed robbers (and police and omo oniles) ,  booze, expensive affairs etc etc . Examine your life and see if this is not true. If you have been paying your tithe before, just neglect to pay it once (even on time) and you will be amazed at how much troubles suddenly come your way.

Yes , tithing or not has nothing with being a good Christian. It only makes your Christian life more enjoyable.

KunleOshob:
The bible is very clear that tithing as been anulled for believers and it states so explicitly however most pro tithers choose to ignore this message to christians in the book of hebrew and rather dwell on the what was written to non believers[ jews] in the book of malachi which is now twisted to favour the greedy lusts of the tithing proponents > The bible in the book of hebrews makes it clear that tithing is not relevant to the priesthood of christ and it clearly anulls it i would reproduce the whole passage here so people can read it in ti's proper context and judge for themselves. I would also put some analysis in parenthis to help put things in clearer perspective.


Hebrews 7:5-19:

. . . . {EDIT: snipped by me}

felifeli:
. . . If you don't pay your tithe it DOES NOT hinder you from getting to heaven. It only hinder you from living under God's prosperity insurance plan while you are on earth. The truth is that you will pay the tithe one way or the other  either to the use of God or you find yourself using the money to pay medical expenses , armed robbers (and police and omo oniles) ,  booze, expensive affairs etc etc . Examine your life and see if this is not true. If you have been paying your tithe before, just neglect to pay it once (even on time) and you will be amazed at how much troubles suddenly come your way.

Yes , tithing or not has nothing with being a good Christian. It only makes your Christian life more enjoyable.

Enigma:
There is no tithing requirement; the best they will come up with is Matthew 23:23 or Hebrews 7  (neither of which they understand and neither of which says a Christian should tithe; in fact, Hebrews 7 makes clear that "tithing" is abolished).
. . . .  A Christian has NO obligation to "tithe".

ttalks:
Jeez! ! !

ttalks:
I guess it might be a bit misplaced to say the new testament abolished tithing; tithing being: giving of 10% of a resource.
That would mean that any form of giving that amounts to 10% of its source is wrong.

The right thing to say is that: the new testament has removed the must-do clause or mandatory obligation on tithe paying.
As it is, if u give 10% of anything towards God(which could be; taking care of the needs of the needy or towards some church need/requirement) there is no problem; you do no wrong. But note, u are not in a superior state over another who has not or will not do the same as you did.

If you do not give 10% of anything towards God(which could be the same as above^^^) but do meet needs, as they come up every once in a while, in percentages below 10 or above 10 of anything, you do no wrong. You are loved by God all the same.

The thing that the new covenant preaches is love which is expressed through giving of varying kinds determined by the owner of the resource and under no pressure or requirement. It doesn't preach giving in the hope of/because of receiving windfalls.

Enigma:
There is no tithing requirement; the best they will come up with is Matthew 23:23 or Hebrews 7  (neither of which they understand and neither of which says a Christian should tithe; in fact, Hebrews 7 makes clear that "tithing" is abolished).

. . . .

A Christian has NO obligation to "tithe".

Enigma:
There is no tithing requirement; the best they will come up with is Matthew 23:23 or Hebrews 7  (neither of which they understand and neither of which says a Christian should tithe; in fact, Hebrews 7 makes clear that "tithing" is abolished).
. . . . A Christian has NO obligation to "tithe".

akinalabi:
Pay your tithe and give the rest to your church as offering. . .

Then sleep under the bridge and wait for a bigger miracle.

Nonsense!

olowolekan:
Where does it say 10% of your money?
Omar, read these please
Genesis 14:20
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Genesis 14:19-21 (in Context) Genesis 14 (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee
Leviticus 27:30
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
Leviticus 27:29-31 (in Context) Leviticus 27 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 27:31
also Mat 23:23

So where does any of that say 10% of your money?

Bobbyaf:
@ enigma

So what about "I change not" that you don't understand? 

So why did Paul circumcise Timothy? Paul says there nothing wrong with circumcision. 

As far as I am aware the dietary laws are very much in place, but you have succumbed to the false teachings of your organization. There is nothing in the NT that has proven that such laws were annulled. Not one. I challenge you to find one, and if you find something that sounds like it, read it until you get the right understanding. The scriptures that you read were entrusted to the Hebrew people who didn't eat unclean foods, and up until the ascension of Christ, not one of the disciples were told to introduce dietary changes.

Bobbyaf:
Simple. The people were not spiritually mature enough to have accepted the original plan of God for them. It wasn't God who changed but the people. When Christ came He brought the very same message, but under different circumstances. The law then with its very high standards could not accommadate their spiritual immaturity, and hence their promise to be faithful to God failed.

When Jesus came under the renewed covenant, the agreement was made under different circumstances that included what God and His Son would accomplish if we learn to trust and depend on Him, and to accept His Son as the supreme sacrifice for our sin. Hence the difference in approach between Moses and Christ. And bear in mind also that evreything that Moses taught was sanctioned by God.

Bobbyaf:
It is a recommendation in my organization and not a requirement. Secondly, it is not to be seen as a requirement for prosperity gospel, because in my denomination no one pastor benefits from all that is collected. As I have said before all our ministers receive the same wage. None of our pastors own a church building as part of his personal property. The wage that each pastor receives is pulled from the treasury that is built up from the tithes of the faithful church members. Its called systematic giving and its collected only once during the divine service. So if a brother makes an increase of $1,000 he or she returns $100 in support of the gospel ministry.

Bobbyaf:
ONCE AGAIN SHOW FROM THE NT THAT TITHING IS ANNULLED.

Joagbaje:
We can now eat unclean food because they represented the gentiles under the law. Now we are one
We still do circumcision but not to be justified by it.

Col. 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

omar22:
Can someone show me TITHE from any part of the NEW TESTAMENT

Bobbyaf:
Does it matter where I am from? What matters is that you get what I am saying.

Pastor AIO:
The Gospel message:  Is it For or Against the polishing of Shoes?

In case you don't understand the sarcasm what I meant to say is that as the polishing of shoes is irrelevant to the core message of the Gospel so is the having of material prosperity.  However the bible does state in no uncertain terms that the craving after material prosperity is a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.

Re: Is Kunle Oshobi A Crook?
« #1 on: January 26, 2010, 11:30 PM »

i didnt understand how bad the "pentecostal movement" in Nigeria had gotten until i had a discussion with a chap from Winners Chapel last saturday night.

I was shocked to hear a christian tell me thus:

1. hell doesnt exist
2. Apostle Paul was NOT prosperous
3. Stephen lacked faith which was why he died from stoning
4. The bible is incomplete

Here is a church worker!  Shocked

I cant post the rest of the garble i heard that day . . .

ttalks:
There is no message of material prosperity in the gospel of Christ. The only message in the gospel of Christ is the salvation of the man; the prosperity of his soul;the richness of man towards God;eternal life.

If a man gets the gospel of Christ and accepts it while in a state of physical prosperity, good for him.Let him live his life according to the gospel and continue to do things which do not violate the gospel in making a living.
If a man gets the gospel of Christ and accepts it while in a state of physical non-prosperity, good for him. The gospel has achieved its purpose in granting him eternal life. Let him live his life according to the gospel and continue to do things which do not violate the gospel in making a living. If he ends up doing things in this course which are very normal which lead to physical prosperity, he definitely will be prosperous physically.


The gospel is about man's soul getting eternal life in Christ. It is apart from  physical prosperity. Physical propserity is subject to natural and earthly standards.
And it is also subject to what God's will and purpose is for a man at a particular and every point in time.

The gospel is about man's soul getting eternal life in Christ. It is apart from  physical prosperity. Physical propserity is subject to natural and earthly standards.
And it is also subject to what God's will and purpose is for a man at a particular and every point in time.