₦airaland Forum

nuella2:
When Jesus taught his disciples to pray did he say they should be reciting it or he gave them a pattern to pray? why is it called the lords prayer sef? Is he the person that prayed that prayer or he taught his disciples.

What and how did Oyakhilome teach you about the Lord's prayer?

If you don't want to answer that one, then tell us your own perspective on the Lord's prayer!

ogajim:
nuella, everything you quoted came after Jesus Christ prayed " Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, "

You get my drift here? . . .

And in any event --- how does any of those indicate someone "changing the will of God"?

A better example might have even been Abraham pleading with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah ---- but even that does not accord with the Word of Faith movement's doctrine which is based on "speaking words of faith" or "exercising faith" rather than praying to or pleading with God.

Zikkyy:
I like the way you put it. True, my thoughts differs from Joe's. I was referring to proposition 1 in my post, but with a slight modification. i.e. there are those things that must happen and there are those things that will happen only if we allow the Almighty to lead us. It a mixture of 1 & 3 really.

I can live with that, Zikky.

Joagbaje:
@ Enigma
can you quote any article where Kenyon or anyone claim there are starting a movement called word of faith. Can you also quote where I said that I follow Kenyon . all these people you mentioned don't all believe same things . I believe in some of their teachings but not necessary all. I believe in the teachings that agrees with the word of God. They all have different levels of understanding of truth. There is word of faith but there's is no such things as word of faith mvement.

I am ready to answer this your last post: however, which of the five things I listed in the post before it do you subscribe to; and which do you disagree with?

Joagbaje:
Pls I dont follow the so called Word Of Faith doctrine. It is an escappee name tag here. But i believe in The Word of God as the word of faith.And anyone who has not known word of faith is still a baby.

That is sheer nonsense! You have admitted before that you follow the teachings of Kenyon, Hagin & Copeland. We have demonstrated conclusively that these are the leaders of the Word of Faith movement. Also, we have told you that Oyakhilome simply parrots what those heretics teach/taught and bamboozle you guys with such and pretending to have some "revelation".

Finally, you have here repeated several doctrines or "understandings of the Bible" (if we may call it that) that only the Word of Faith movement and its associates or infectees hold to. The following which you have yourself stated or supported expressly are Word of Faith movement doctrine which makes you conclusively a WoFer or Word of Faith movement follower/adherent (and thus, in my personal view, a heretic):

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.

Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5.

Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

@Joagbaje

Here are two of the three propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.


Which one of those two does God need your cooperation for His will to be done?

@Zikky

I think the point you are trying to make is different from that of Joagbaje's and his origin in Word of Faith movement doctrine.

Of course, a person who refuses to get educated, learn a trade or seek employment etc cannot expect to be successful ------ that is not really a matter of God's will per se. That is a matter of the ordinary course of things ---- of general nature. Let us put it in terms of three simplistic propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

OK: these are three propositions and people may agree or disagree. However, I put these propositions up to ask of people like Joagbaje and others who follow Word of Faith movement doctrine, which of these three things requires the cooperation of man or of "the Christian" for God's will to be done?

@ Enitan

Well done and big congrats on your Nilesat ---------------- also quite commendable persistence which paid off at last because you have been on this issue of Nilesat for a while. Well done again and same to all those who assisted.

Further to above:

Jesus taught: Thy will be done on earth and in heaven.

Does God also need your cooperation before His will is done in heaven?

Joagbaje:
But hear this , the will of God will not come to pass , withouth your cooperation. And that cooperation is FAITH.

OK a simple exercise for you.

Jesus certainly taught His disciples to pray "Thy will be done"! We have clear evidence of that!

Where did Jesus ever teach that the will of God will not come to pass without your cooperation?

enitan2002:
@ Enigma,
happy birthday to a wonderful mate that is sharing same birthday date as I.

Souhaitant joyeux moi bon anniversaire, wishing myself a happy birthday.

Thanks to everyone on the forum.

Enitan my "sake" (shared birthday), many many happy returns, long life and prosperity and conquering of Nilesat and others

When next I'm in Naija, we'll see if we can arrange to meet.

olason:
Enigma, happy birthday to u oga mi. @ Enitan and same to u too! @All d box only works in lagos and Abuja for now, soon according to my contact it wil also spread to other states

olason, my brother thank you very plentiful; you are one of the guys whose setup I'd like to see; if I remember correctly, you were one of the first (if not the very first) who, in Season 1, made us realise that Hotbird etc are possible in Lagos/Southern Nigeria.

@Viaro

Excellent posts -- esp no 177-179.

Joagbaje:
The first thing you should realise is that there are different levels of spiritual maturity, and when you read a scripture you should be able to decode whom it is meant for.

Nah, the first thing you should realise is that you are deeply ignorant and grossly misinformed about Christianity --- anyway you belong to WoF and not to Christianity. The second thing you should realise is that as long as you are that ignorant and continue to spout WoF heresies, you are a heretic and therefore anathema ---- unless you repent.

If your prayer is the so called "the lords prayer"  you are a baby. It can carry you for a while but not for too long. Jesus relaled with his disciples at different levels. And these different levels, there were different levels of truth he taught them. He called them children, servants , but before he left them , his teachings had to get deeper, he had to change their status spiritually so as to know deeper things.He stopped calling them servants in relationship.He called them friends

Part of being an ignorant and misinformed heretic is that you have been manipulated and conditioned to reject the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself and that of His apostles and instead to follow the corruptions of the minds of WoF leaders as planted there by satan; also to follow your own similarly corrupt mind.

The prayer that Jesus taught His own disciples (as pointed out and emphasised by aletheia) is to you "so-called". Let me spell it out again: The Lord's, the Lord's, the Lord's prayer is to you and your fellow heretics "so-called".

Christians of virtually every Western denomination have no problems to say the Lord's prayer ------ only you WoFers cannot say it because you are NOT Christians. As you are not believers or followers of Christ we are not surprised that you cannot say HIS prayer and you disparage it as "so-called".

Most enjoyable and moving when sung to Shipston

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/i/firmlyib.htm#

Firmly I believe and truly
God is Three, and God is One;
And I next acknowledge duly
Manhood taken by the Son.

And I trust and hope most fully
In that Manhood crucified;
And each thought and deed unruly
Do to death, as He has died.

Simply to His grace and wholly
Light and life and strength belong,
And I love supremely, solely,
Him the holy, Him the strong.

And I hold in veneration,
For the love of Him alone,
Holy Church as His creation,
And her teachings are His own.

And I take with joy whatever
Now besets me, pain or fear,
And with a strong will I sever
All the ties which bind me here.

Adoration aye be given,
With and through the angelic host,
To the God of earth and Heaven,
Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

E pass me!!!

How can a "pastor" whose "greed pass this world" have the holy spirit (sic) in him?

What is the fruit of the Spirit? And can the fruit of the Spirit accommodate greed?

Finally, why will the so-called pastor's church not be "increasing rapidly" when he preaches greed and his flock are themselves greedy and want to hear about greed with their itching ears?

@Joagbaje or "Pastor" Agbaje

With almost every post you make you spew forth heresy; it is easy to imagine that heresies emanate from every pore of your being. I would have liked to appeal to you to pull back from your "church" for a little while and take time to go back and learn the Bible from absolute basics but it seems that your case really requires "divine intervention".

However, at least go easy on "teaching" others heresy and "making them a child of hell . . .  " in the words of one wise person.

Also, you are adding a form of arrogance to the spreading of heresy which makes you particularly contemptible. If you do such and I am around here or notice it, I will not even make an attempt to be polite when exposing the bankruptcy of your heretical doctrine.

I just knew that the WoFers will yet again bring their heresies to this one.

Obviously WoFers do not believe in Jesus Christ and do not follow the example of Jesus Christ --- because Jesus Christ certainly taught and Himself prayed "thy will be done"!

Marcwilliems:
Enigma,  Is it english language thats the problem or lack of knowledge,  Take the pains for once and read the whole passage from verse one.
  "1) GOD STANDETH IN THE CONGREGATION OF THE MIGHTY; HE JUDGETH AMONG THE GODS.
  2) HOW LONG WILL YE JUDGE UNJUSTLY, AND ACCEPT THE PERSONS OF THE WICKED? Selah
  3) DEFEND THE POOR AND FATHERLESS: DO JUSTICE TO THE AFFLICTED AND NEEDY.
   4) DELIVER THE POOR AND NEEDY: RID THEM OUT OF THE HAND OF THE WICKED.
   5) THEY KNOW NOT, NEITHER WILL THEY UNDERSTAND; THEY WALK ON IN DARKNESS: ALL THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH ARE OUT OF COURSE.
   6) I HAVE SAID, YE ARE GODS: AND ALL OF YOU ARE CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH.
   7) BUT YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN, AND FALL LIKE ONE OF THE PRINCES.
    ARISE, O GOD, JUDGE THE EARTH: FOR THOU SHALT INHERIT ALL NATIONS.''
            Psalm 82: 1-8
i had to go thru the pain cos i know pickin your Bible might be someone hard, verse 7 is explained by 5 and 6, THE ARE TO DIE LIKE MEN (MEANING THEY ARE NOT MEN- if you are good in english you'll note what is in between the lines) BECAUSE THEY ARE IGNORANT, EVEN THOUGH GOD HAS PROCLAIMED THEM TO BE gods, study the bible- PRAYERFULLY.

What you are showing is that you are just about a beginner in studying the Bible or, maybe even worse, someone who takes his understanding of the Bible not form personal study but from what a heretic "pastor" says. Even when we try to learn from others we must be discerning in choosing who we learn from --- thus we must avoid "learning" from heretics!

Look, Christianity has existed for 2000 years ---- your "pastor" started less than (at least on TV) about 10 years ago; the American heretics that he parrots to bamboozle you guys started their particular heresies about 100 years ago (let's say). You think all the Christians before these latter-day heretics did not see Psalm 82 (or John 10)? Why did none of them teach that a Christain is "god"? Why is it that only you WoFers and associates claim this nonsense? If you don't know I will tell you: it is because it is heresy and those who teach it unrepentantly are heretics!

By the way it is considered rude to use so many capital letters; it is considered as "shouting"! (Have that lesson for free; if I have time I will also be happy to give you Bible lessons for free)

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: Let me answer for viaro. YES. Jesus is God. NEXT!?

Me too! Indeed Jesus is God, so NEXT?

Marcwilliems:
@ poster: the scripture is 2nd corinthians 5 vs 17, and d original Greek margin reads like this"IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST HE IS A NEW SPECIES OF BEING'', why not accept what God has said. The qstn we should ask is this Why did Jesus come and die? Was His death and resurrection successful? What impact does it have on us now? But we don't, PSALM 82:6 SAYS "I HAVE SAID, YE ARE GODS, AND ALL OF YOU ARE CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH''. And think of it if we have eternal life- the same life God has- doesn't it tell u we are different and superhuman?? Have u read the story of John the divine who was boiled in hot oil yet did not die? What about paul who was stoned left for dead, but rose up and started preachin immediately(acts 14:19) .another time he a viper fastened itself on him he didn't die. Isn't than superhuman? Common brothers lets know and appreciate what Christ has brought to us- eternal life (zoe in greek) - and live at the level God has called us to live instead of arguing about mundane issues. , the world awaits the manifestation of God's sons (Romans 8:19), but how can we manifest when we are still arguing on petty issues? While we are still arguing the devil is killing hundred of thousands daily- haiti for example,

This post shows that the pastor is a heretic teaching his uninformed/misinformed followers heresy.

Those who claim to be the "gods" under Psalm 82:6 are the ones who also shall die like men under Psalm 82:7

KunleOshob:
The lunacy being exhibited on this thread is so so nauseating that I really find it difficult to comment. I never had a clue that christianity had been so badly assaulted and abused.

nuclearboy:
.
@Kunle:

This thread is amazing. . . .

It is very very very heartbreaking!

Joagbaje:
. . .
faith has to be communicated in words. In the spirit realm, words are not mere sounds but "they are spirits".I need several pages to explain this but I will make it as brief as possible. If you rew up among the Yorubas , I dont know about other cultures, The acient fighters and hunters and warruors use "ogede" and "ofo" Pastor AIO will bear us out here. He was born into Ifa family  "ofo" means spoken word. You must speak it out!. Spoken words are like currency of purchase in the sprit realm.In the 70s on WNTV WE watched how two warriors would be charming each other with words. These are spiritual laws. It cut across the globe.

The word of faith is the spoken active word through our mouth. It is our "ofo" If I may borrow that word.

See what the heretical WoF teachers have reduced Joagbaje and co to become; pity they are too blind to see what indeed they have become.

@nuclearboy

They have not fully revealed their hand; you will see how ridiculous they get when they raise Isaiah 45:11 "Command ye me" and tell you they can tell God what to do.

Or they will say God has given his "word"; He honours his "word" more than His name; so when they stand on His "word", God must do what they ask.

They may be hiding those points now; but they will out eventually.

nuclearboy:
^^^ Laughter ke, my Oga? This time I sadly find myself more scared than amused. To imagine
But now, they go further and are equal to Christ Himself tacitly negating His divinity. Ol'boy !!! 

Look at the comment about the woman with the blood issue. I thought the Bible said her belief in Christ made her touch and healed her. When did it become that her faith healed her. Faith in what? Healed by what? No be Christ? So are we now to believe we should just believe in our spiritual power and order God around? Now that'd be something to see - the Almighty being a Butler or "Man Friday".

(I added bold and underline)

That is precisely what the heretical WoF leaders are teaching which our fellows here have swallowed in typical unthinking gullibility! The worse thing is that their unthinking gullibility is compounded by the arrogance of the ignorant ---- yapping "meat and not milk" rubbish.

KunleOshob:
What is this silly slut ranting about

Kunle, no this is not supportable.

Joagbaje:
What is this continous Hala on WOF .
The word of God is the word of faith.The word of faith is the utterance of your faith with your mouth.

Rom 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Any Christian criticising word of faith should be ashamed of himself to even display such ignorance openly. So what do you preach? Word of death?

Nonsense!!!! What is being criticised is the Word of Faith movement and its litany of heresies that you spout here ignorantly and unashamedly.

One thing that should have set your alarm bells ringing, if you were sharp enough is this: even though Western Christian denominations differ on many things, in general, they are unanimous on the person/nature/status of Christ as God who exercised divine power and on the nature of man as man (NOT God or god) who looks forward to the hope of the coming kingdom; ONLY the Word of Faith movement deny the divinity of Christ in reducing Him to a man who needed faith AND elevating man to the status of "god" or even God.

The fact that ONLY WoF is different from all others should tell a wise person that something is wrong!

It tells intelligent and informed Christians that WoF is a heretical movement that should be avoided like the plague!

Very good points:

Indeed while we can see various meanings or angles to faith, the primary meaning is in terms of belief.

Abraham believed and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. Thomas was told that those who believed without having first seen were particularly blessed.

So the first thing is we believe God; we believe Jesus; that is our faith, primarily.

OK, faith can also be seen as a confident expectation because of the promise of God; it is this truth that the WoF has stretched into metaphysics/new age mumbo jumbo and straight into error and indeed heresy- building on other heresies assuming man's deity.

Yes, we believe in some things that have not happened; we believe that we have a certain hope beyond this present world; we have faith that it will come to pass because, in the first place, we believe the One who promised.

However, we do not make it happen because we believe or because we have faith; it is for the One we believe to make it happen. That is faith.

I know that the WoFers will bring up the Jesus' saying "faith as a mustard seed/say to mountain move"; I will wait for them on that one --- because I'm convinced that when they do, they will by their own words reveal their error and misunderstanding.

Anyway, the cardinal WoF error on faith is to say that you use faith as a force to make things happen. It becomes like incantation or the equivalent of magic mumbo jumbo abracadabra. The worse thing, as I alluded to above, is that this error in itself stems from a worse heresy ---- the equation of man with God/Deity/Divinity and the further erroneous belief that the exercise of power by that Being is done "by faith"!

George_D

If you think so; what I will say is this: I know a fair bit about the law and I know how things work in the UK. Yep, if it is not brought to the attention of the chap whose name was mentioned or his representatives maybe nothing will happen. If it is brought to his/their attention, well something will happen I'm pretty sure ----- the fellow's reputation in this country (an extremely crucial matter) and indeed his future livelihood is affected by that kind of thing. He and his reps won't take it lightly.

But if you guys are sure it is fine . . .  all good!

tox

I think you should edit post no 3136 sharpish; (a) it is potentially very very seriously libellous; (b) your identity is readily available; (c) you are easily 'reachable' in the UK.

I suspect you know I will not say a thing like that lightly!

ETA Just to show how serious I think it is: I was going to quote that your post but changed my mind due to risk of repeating the potential libel --- which itself is actionable in some circumstances.

Joagbaje:
@ viaro

If you really read Benniny Hinn and Kenyon books as you claim, I will like you to honestly say what it was they taught that change your perception.
thanks

What about all the other things that have been pointed out ----- which one have you gone back to check with the Bible; even if more errors by Hinn, Kenyon & Hagin are pointed out, will you not just return in robot-mode repeating pre-programmed jargon in defence of heresy.

Example: you were told that it is heresy for WoF teachers to teach "you are a god"; you come back with passages including Psalm 82:6 especially saying this:

Joagbaje:
So we have classes of gods
Those born of God, Those who mature in God. Those who have recieved the word of God.

Psalm 82:6
   I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Meanwhile the very next verse 7 and its togetherness with the preceding verse 6 had been pointed out repeatedly (or "severally" Lord knows I hate that word ).

For your benefit once more (if it is not hopeless) here is the passage again together:

Psalm 82:6-7

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

If you are the "god" in verse 6, are you also the "god" in verse 7 condemned to die like men?

If that does not put you off Hinn what else will? Perahaps that he also taught that "there are NINE of them in the Trinity" (granted he later claimed to repent of that one)?

Zikkyy:
This is motivational talk. I asked a simple question, why is the poor in your church not benefiting from this prosperity gospel you are preaching? Are you saying they refused to accept it? Maybe there is more to this prosperity thing than you are preaching. I believe you are not providing full disclosure here.

Many years ago before the full onset of WoF/prosperity "gospel", the late Dr David Martin Lloyd-Jones posed this question similarly, albeit in different words, when addressing people who were even regarded as generally orthodox --- save for erroneous misguidedness on the issue of "guaranteed" healing. He said if you insist that healing is guaranteed  for a Christian

Why doesn't it always work? That is your problem!

Incidentally, another respected preacher (a South African whose name eludes me now), who had once subscribed to the guaranteed healing error repented and turned from it after proper biblical exposition became available to him.

Pastor AIO:
However, apart from the use as a divinatory tool, I find the odu and their contents very deeply philosophical and they present an amazing cosmology that is second to none. 
There are various dos and don'ts for each odu.  They have their various ewoo (taboo).  They have their various herbs, and their various objects or foodstuffs for sacrifice.  I can write a post later on describing the process of divination and how the babalawo arrives at a diagnosis and decides when moves to  make in order to ascertain Ire (good fortune) and block Ibi (bad fortune). 
I sometimes find that I can read situations and the dynamics around someone and thereby make predictions without requiring any divination instruments.

This is the part that I am very much interested in. Unfortunately, even as someone who has the word 'odu' as part  of ancestral moniker, I do not know enough to be able to contribute meaningfully; hence, I am only 'participating' in the thread as an observer and learner since discovering it a couple of days ago.