₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
Is the Word of Allah not is Attribute? So, did Allah create his word just as Allah created his power and as he created his knowledge?

"A WORD" from Allah is the the identity of Jesus Messiah.

The name of this WORD is Jesus, the Messiah, son of Mary!

This is what Allah says. But I guess you are smarter to attempt reinterpretation of clear verses.

Allah's attributes are eternal and uncreated, while the Word of Allah, when referring to Isa (Jesus), is a creation of Allah. Jesus being referred to as the Word of Allah highlights his miraculous birth and the power of Allah's command in creating him without a father.


I ask again which spirit is created by other than God?

TenQ:
I even quoted a verse for you. You didn't read it?
check Gen 5:21-24 and Hebrew 11:5 check!

Enoch was no more meaning?

He was taken to where?

TenQ:
No problem, it's an honour to Adam. You just confirmed by yourself that Adam was not created by any command.

Again:
Adam was NOT created by a command of Allah

I don't know who else according to Islam Allah create with his two hands. You tell me who else Allah created by his hands. I am not a Muslim.



How did Allah create Eve in the Qur'an: please educate me? Was it also by command?

But neither Adam nor Jesus was created by the command "BE"!
According to Allah,
1. Adam was created by Allah molding Adam with mud!
2. Jesus was created by Jibril blowing into Mary's vulva!

As you can see, Neither of Adam nor Jesus were created by any command

As you surely cannot disappoint. You didn't review the verse mentioned.

Quran 3:59
Indeed, the example of Jesus in the sight of Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him, “Be!” And he was!


Eve's creation, along with all human life, is a direct reflection of Allah's command and will. The creation of Eve serves to complement Adam, symbolizing harmony and divine order. The phrase "Kun Fayakoon" exemplifies Allah's limitless power to bring anything into existence that He desires, surpassing human comprehension of such processes.

What is Be? Remember the initial honour before the command to be.

O mankind! Fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. Quran 4:1

TenQ:
But I just showed you with evidence that Allah did not create anything by a command. He either made clay or breathe into someone's vulva.

Is Quran 38:75 an error?

Quran 38:75
"[Allah] said, 'O Iblis, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My two hands? Were you arrogant, or were you among the exalted?'"

Did Allah say he created Adam with his speech? Allah clearly stated that he used his TWO hands: didn't he?

Again in your hurry you fail to understand. Creating with hands is quite an additional honour in addition to the command to be.
Isn't it clearly stated that Jesus is like Adam created by the word/command Kun to be?

Quran 3:59.

Isn't there comparitively specific honor to Adam being created by Allah's hands though unlike mankind's.

Who else did Allah create with his hands.

TenQ:
"
a command from Allah but by BREATHING his spirit into Mary. Is breathing the same as speaking?

3. Jibril came to GIVE Jesus to Mary
Quran 19:17-19
"So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and he appeared to her as a perfect man. She said, 'Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing Allah.' He said, 'I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you a pure boy.'"
Here Jibril and not Allah came down to give Mary a boy. Except you want t[font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font]o concede that Jibril is one of the creators of life in Islam.

4. This is Why your prophet called Jesus by the TITLE :
Kalimatullah : "The Word of Allah."
Quran 4:171
"The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a spirit from Him."

Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 24690
"Indeed, Jesus is the Word of Allah which He cast to Mary, and a Spirit from Him."


1. Jesus having no father doesn't prove any Miracle because there was no EVIDENCE to anyone. In fact, Only Mary knows about this Miracle and God had to convince Joseph not to leave his wife.
2. Why do you think the Children of Israel did not exercise the law of Moses on Mary when she got pregnant outside wedlock and stone her to death?




Think now!
How can High station mean Paradise!?
High station simply means a place of importance or honour amongst the prophets or an exalted position.

Except you wish to concede that Allah is so poor in language that he cannot communicate clearly to his people without us fighting over what he means




Allah couldn't explain a verse and Mohammed couldn't and then came Ibn Kathir almost 668 years after, armed with the elusive knowledge. Shouldn't you be ashamed?

How confused Islamic scholars are:
1. Quran 19:57 Tafsir Al-Jalalayn
And We raised him to a high station — he is alive in the fourth or sixth or seventh heaven or he is in Paradise into which he was admitted after he was made to experience death and brought back to life and he has not exited therefrom.

This one said Idris actually died but brought back to life


2. Tafseer Tafheem-ul-Quran Syed Abu-al-A'la Maududi Qur'an 19:57
and We had raised him to a high position.
The plain meaning is that God had favoured Idris with a high rank, but according to the Israelite traditions, God took up Idris ( Enoch ) to heavens. The Bible says: " ...
and he was not; for God took him ", but the Talmud has a long story to tell, which ends with the words: " Enoch ascended to heaven in a whirlwind, with chariot and horses of fire. "

This one gave the plain interpretation and correct but added the tradition of the Jews to it

3. Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘AbbâsQuran 19: 57
( And We raised him to high station ) in Paradise.
This one just focused on Idris state in paradise, avoiding the argument of whether he died or not


4. Ala-Maududi Qur'an 19:57
and We exalted him to a lofty position.
The plain meaning is that God had favored Idris with a high rank, but according to the Israelite traditions, God took up Idris (Enoch) to heavens. The Bible says: And he was not; for God took him, but the Talmud has a long story to tell, which ends with the words: Enoch ascended to heaven in a whirlwind, with chariot and horses of fire.


5. Here is what one of your islamic scholars said
...There is a difference of opinion as to who Prophet Idris (peace be upon him) was. Some commentators opine that he was a Prophet from among the Israelites, but the majority of them are inclined to the view that he was a Prophet before Noah (peace be upon him). There is no authentic tradition which may help determine his identity.
https://myislam.org/surah-maryam/ayat-56/

They don't even know who Idris was

6. Here is what another of your scholars said in Introduction to Tafheem Qur'an 19:51-57 : Towards Understanding the Quran
33. There is a difference of opinion as to who Prophet Idris (peace be upon him) was. Some commentators opine that he was a Prophet from among the Israelites, but the majority of them are inclined to the view that he was a Prophet before Noah (peace be upon him). There is no authentic tradition which may help determine his identity. ....
..(19:57) and We exalted him to a lofty position.34
34. The plain meaning is that God had favored Idris with a high rank, but according to the Israelite traditions, God took up Idris (Enoch) to heavens. The Bible says: And he was not; for God took him, but the Talmud has a long story to tell, which ends with the words: Enoch ascended to heaven in a whirlwind, with chariot and horses of fire.
https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php

So, you see the confused mess you found yourself in!?
Without the Bible, you can't even explain your Qur'an even though Allah claimed to have given you DETAILS

Quran 12:111
"It is not a fabricated statement, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things."

You quote Quran 4:171 and fail to understand it's significance
Saying Jesus is a word is highlighting that he as other things Allah created is by his command, word to be and he is.

Being a spirit from God isn t unusual unless you can show that other brings apart from God create spirits.

Likening Idris to Enoch is no big deal as he can ad well be likened to Elijah. Most definitely these were righteous beings raised to high status.

What status is above paradise?

You are yet to tell me where Enoch is and I have been looking out for this response.

TenQ:
No sir. The Qur'an did not say "The Word from Allah" and so, it doesn't refer to Allah's ability to create anything.
1. Correction please: It is not the word FROM Allah but HIS WORD (Allah's word) cast down to Mary.

كَلِمَتُهُ (Wa kalimatuhu) – "And His Word"
(Alqāhā ilā Maryama) – "Which He cast to Mary"
That is, Jesus Himself is The Word

2. Allah did not create everything by His word.
No, Allah Did NOT Allah not create ANYTHING by his command or his word?

With Jesus, Jibril or Allah BREATH of his spirit into Mary.
Qur'an 66:12
"And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her vulva, so We breathed into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures and was of the devoutly obedient."
Whose spirit was blown into Mary?
Note that this spirit is SINGULAR and not Plural!
Similarly,
Qur'an 21:91
"And [mention] the one who guarded her vulva, so We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds."

So, clearly, Jesus wasn't created by a command from Allah but by BREATHING his spirit into Mary. Is breathing the same as speaking?

Why are you contradicting yourself or trying to be confused.

Did you not give reference to: Behold! The angels said, 'O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of aWord from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah].'

Can you tell please what or who the word from Allah is in this verse?

The concept of Allah's command his word,shows his absolute authority and power over all things. These are his creation .
In Surah Yasin Allah says when ever he intends to do a thing he only says to it be and it is. Quran 36:82. This shows all Allah wills is realised by his word. His intention is achieved by his word.

Does your Bible not tell you similar? As an example God says let there be light are there was/is.

Quran 2:117 also states and shows that when Allah intends to create anything he only says to it be and it is. Isn't this a showing of how all Allah creates is by his word?

TenQ:
In Christianity, there is nothing extraordinarily uniquely peculiar with a person not passing through death BECAUSE Jesus is NOT the only one (unlike in Islam) that would leave this world without death.

Three key examples
1. Enoch:
Gen 5:21-24:
"And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

2. Elijah:
2 Kings 2:11:
"As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Elijah was taken up to heaven without experiencing death.


3. All Believers in Christ at His second coming:
1Ths 4:16-17:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all die, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

So, you see that in Christianity, JESUS is NOT the only person who would leave the earth without passing through death. As Christians, we are both material and immaterial beings consisting as Body, Soul and Spirit and we can be transformed directly without having to pass through death.

So, this kind of transformation in Christianity is NOT unique to Jesus unlike in Islam.







My Question again:
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus alone is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?
Or who else with evidence in the Qur'an or Hadith is an exception?

BUT,
If you think Idris is Enoch, provide evidence from Allah or Mohammed! All I need is supporting EVIDENCE from the Qur'an of Allah or the Hadiths of your prophet. Didn't Allah tell you things about Idris?

Clearly you need the Bible to even make any meaning or sense out of the Qur'an of Allah!
SMH!

It is true that with regards to Jesus the reference, ‘a Word from Allah’ is given, it is in accordance with Allah s ability to create which encompasses the entirety of beings. Did Allah not create everything else by his command, his word?

The phrase Word of Allah is interpreted as his order or wish when uttered as ‘Kun’ (Be).

Jesus’s Creation Depicts the Might of Allah:

The very act of creating Jesus without a human father demonstrates the ability of Allah to go beyond the boundaries which the natural world sets.


Allah has full commandeering power over the creation of the universe. To the same degree that Jesus was created, so too does the creative force that brought him into being maintain the universe.

And mention Idris in the Book. Indeed, he was a man of truth and a prophet. And We raised him to a high station.Quran 19:56-57.

What is the high station?

Ibn Kathir describes this as a physical ascension to paradise.

So you see that you are the one making a big deal of what you shouldn't. Even going as far a creating a non christian definition of trinity?

See the falling cards of your definition of trinity?

TenQ:
First admit that you don't have an answer in Islam for the question.
My Question was strictly about ISLAM:
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?

After this, ask me nicely for explanation from us Christians and I will gladly oblige you. For now, the question is about ISLAMIC understanding of WHY Jesus is the ONLY person alive with Allah without passing through death. In case you don't understand, in the bible, such is not unique to Jesus alone
BUT
This fact that someone went to Allah without passing through death in ISLAMIC doctrine is UNIQUE only to Jesus. WHY?

Again
My Question was strictly about ISLAM:
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?

It is in accordance with Allah's wisdom, design, saving his prophet. Besides you claim Jesus is the only one with Allah and I mention Idris likened to Enoch in your Bible. Clear dispelling of Jesus being the only one as there's one even longer.

Tell me where Enoch is!

TenQ:
Is the Qur'an not in Arabic?
If then, we should have Idris in the Arabic bible instead of "أخنوخ" (Akhnukh).
Note that Moses wrote Enoch's name in Hebrew as חֲנוֹךְ (Ḥănōḵ). .
Honestly , we wonder how Islam mixed up the simple identities with no single explanation to clarify WHY or WHEN.

It is the same reason no Muslim can tell us from the Qur'an who Israel the father of the Jews is: even though the Children of Israel is mentioned several times.

This is why we cringe when you say Jesus is ISA or Allah is the name of the God of Jews and Christians. This difference explain why the Islamic ISA was neither crucified nor killed.

Other names exist in Islam like Jālūṭ for Goliath, Dhul-Kifl for Ezekiel Or Ṭālūt for Saul . We don't know where Mohammed got these names from.



But Enoch is not IDRIS except you can show me on the contrary either from the Qur'an or from the Hadiths of your prophet Mohammad.
My Question was strictly about ISLAM:
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?

You need to convince me that you know someone else in Islam who is living bodily with Allah and never dead.

Are you saying that there are many answers that Islam doesn't have until they rely on the Christians!? Isn't Islam sufficient by itself?

Regardless of your diversions regarding names kindly tell where Enoch as stated in your Bible is?

TenQ:
Let's just say that you Muslims don't know why Isa or Jesus is the only human who is with Allah above the seventh heaven with Allah physically over 2000 years ago not how he even got there in the first place.

I am sure that you know that the knowledge of the whereabout of Jesus came from the Christians and not Mohammed who came 700 years after.

Acts 1:9-11:
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven."

Acts 2:32-33:
"This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now see and hear."

None of my questions have any theological reason in Islam. The reason is that Islam copied much of it from the Christians without knowing why.

Speaking about Idris, he doesn't exist in the bible either in the old testament nor new testament. In the Qur'an, Allah never once described who Idris was and I have checked the hadiths for anything about him from Mohammed and there is not one description of such a person as Idris. It was much later in the 8th or 9th century that your scholars began to connect him with Enoch in the bible. Unfortunately, I doubt any connection between Idris and Enoch because Enoch in the Arabic bible is called "أخنوخ" (Akhnukh).

Do you know the problem of Islam?
It is thinking that the Qur'an is self sufficient and neglecting the command of Allah to ask questions.


Qur'an 6:94
"So if you are in doubt about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you"

Instead, your Islamic scholars became experts in theology and led every Muslim astray. They had to convince you that against the Qur'an, you shouldn't follow the earlier revealed scriptures.


I think you should ask yourself why Jesus is so special above any human inexistence.
You should also ask why the theology of Jesus is vastly different from that of Mohammed.

If you truely know Jesus and you believe in Him, you will leave Mohammed guaranteed!

Indeed Idris cannot exist in the Bible just as Isa in that name doesn't exist in the Bible.

Hebrew 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Where was Enoch taken to and where is he now?

TenQ:
The question is WHY sir and not if a thing is possible with God! Does God do things irrationally?
Idont know any Biblical character called Idris. I will give you N1,000,000 if you show me one person in the Arabic Bible with the name Idris! Who is Idris?
Do you know any one with the name Akhnukh (أخنوخ) in Islam?

My Question was: According to Islam,
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?

Indeed everyone is appointed a birth date as well as dearh date. Jesus is alive as Allah saved him from those who intended to murder or execute him in rebellion as they did to some others.

Isa pbuh's preservation in the heavens is a profound aspect of Allah’s divine wisdom and plan. This phenomenon serves as a compelling testimony to His omnipotence, showcasing how divine intervention shapes the course of human history. It fulfills eschatological prophecies, marking significant events leading up to the Day of Judgment. Isa’s eventual return is especially significant, as it will reaffirm the truth of Allah’s message, dispelling falsehood and misguidance prevalent in society. In this way, his return not only reinforces faith but also prepares humanity for accountability on the Day of Judgment, highlighting the importance of divine guidance in our lives.

Idris share a similarities with Enoch.

I don't know Akhnuck

TenQ:
We have no doctrine of satan touching anyone at birth in Christianity. What we know is that every descendant of Adam is a SINNER including even Mary. It was your prophet who made the claim that only Jesus and Mary were not touched by satan, thus, you owe me the explanation of why Mohammed was touched but only Jesus and Mary were not touched.

My Question was: According to Islam,
2. Why according to your prophet that Jesus and Mary are the only humans that Satan did not touch at birth?

Mention of John the Baptist as he's known in Christianity rather than Yahya a.s.

You have no doctrine in Christianity of satan touching anyone at birth; why then do you refer to it? You obviously disagree with it and don't believe it.

You say all defendants of Adam are sinners and believe you refer to inherited sin? Why then did you wrongly have a problem with babies going to hell after all they inherited Adam's sin? How can a baby accept your Christ and be born again when quite unable discern things clearly?

TenQ:
NO: I did NOT write according to the Christian trinity but I wrote according to the trinity of Jesus you chose to ignore in the Quran. Except your contention is that Jesus is not Ruhullah, Kalimatullah and Rasulullah at the same time.
By Definition:
Trinity is simply ONE Person who co-exist in three distinct IDENTITIES.
GOD as ONE Person Exist as The Father, The Spirit and The Word (that became Human):
e.g. The Father is GOD, The Holy Spirit is GOD and the Word is GOD.
MAN as One Person Exist as Body, Soul and Spirit because man was created in the image of God as a Trinity.
e.g. The Body is YOU, the Soul is YOU and the Spirit is YOU

My Question was: According to Islam,
1. Why is Jesus the only One who is a Trinity of the Word of Allah, the Spirit from Allah and a Messenger of Allah?

In all you have written can you clearly point me to a definition of trinity in the Quran or Islam?

Why will you define trinity by what it is not? You are having trouble being convincing with your own definition?

Do you think that ruhullah is like ruhutenq that exist together? The ruh is a creation of Allah and not part of Allah.

This ruh was put in Adam and is present in all humans.

Kalimatullah,which translates to Word of Allah,refers to the divine command that brought Jesus into existence in Mary's womb. This event underscores the creative power of Allah's will and emphasizes His omnipotence within Islamic theology. While Isa is honored as a prophet, his miraculous birth does not imply divinity. Rather, it showcases Allah's supreme authority and power, illustrating the nature of God and His prophets.

Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah."
(Quran 4:172)

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], Indeed, I have come to you with a sign from your Lord... and I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of Allah.
(Quran 3:49)

IslamVIRGINS:
Both Muhammad and quran are ONLY warner to the people of Makkah. Quran is not a book for mankind! You have to stop lying


And thus we have revealed to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the mother of the cities (Makkah) and those around her." (42:7)

The Qur'an is a universal message meant for all of humanity and even the jinn, a point emphasized through various verses. Surah Al-Anbiya (21:107) states that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent as a mercy to "the worlds," highlighting the global nature of his mission. Likewise, Surah Saba (34:28) affirms that the Qur'an brings good news and warnings directed at all of mankind, crossing cultural boundaries.

This theme is further supported by Surah Al-Baqarah (2:185), which describes the Qur'an as guidance for the people, and Surah Al-Zumar (39:41), which stresses the importance of individual responsibility in responding to its teachings. The Prophet Muhammad is addressed as "O mankind" in Surah Al-A'raf (7:158), emphasizing his universal role.

Moreover, Surah Al-Takwir (81:27-28) presents the Qur'an as a reminder for all worlds, while Surah Al-Hijr (15:9) reassures us of Allah's protection over it, ensuring its relevance for future generations. In summary, the Qur'an’s universality underscores its timeless nature, providing mercy, guidance, and truth to all who seek it.

Specifically in regard to the verse you refer to.
This verse Quran 42:7 is showcasing the Quran's universal message that goes beyond geographical and temporal limits. It calls us to pay attention to the warnings about the Day of Gathering, stressing our ultimate responsibility to a higher power. The mention of "the Mother of Cities" not only highlights its immediate significance but also demonstrates how its teachings apply to all of humanity.

The designation of Mecca as the "Mother of Cities" in Quran 42:7 encapsulates its unparalleled significance within Islam. First and foremost, Mecca is the site of the Ka'bah, the first house of worship dedicated to Allah, established by Prophet Ibrahim and his son Ismail, anchoring its spiritual centrality. Mind that it's origin stresses as far back to Adam.
Indeed, the first House [of worship] established for mankind was that at Makkah – blessed and a guidance for the worlds."
(Quran 3:96)
Historically, it has served as a pivotal hub for monotheistic faith, tracing back to the roots of Ibrahim, thereby influencing regions far beyond its bounds. Geographically, Mecca's prominence as a trade center in pre-Islamic Arabia further emphasizes its role in shaping culture and faith. The term "mother" signifies not just origin but also nurturing; Mecca is the cradle of divine guidance. Ultimately, while it embodies a local significance, Mecca's message transcends geographical confines, establishing it as the spiritual and social axis for all humanity, uniting believers around a shared faith and purpose.

TenQ:
Mohammed COPIED anything true of Christ from the people of the Book and distorted much of it. This is why Islam CANNOT explain of the things Mohammed copied

1. Why is Jesus the only One who is a Trinity of the Word of Allah, the Spirit from Allah and a Messenger of Allah?
2. Why according to your prophet that Jesus and Mary are the only humans that Satan did not touch at birth?
3. Why is it that Jesus is the only co-Creator of Life in the universe aside Allah. If you no anyone else tell me.
4. Why is it according to your prophet that Jesus is still alive with Allah since 2000 years ago?
5. Why was Jesus born without a human Father as it wasn't a necessary miracle in Islam?


So, can you explain WHY for each of these things Mohammed copied? Mohammed should have asked the people of the book to explain why, but he didn't

Indeed you like to dispute.

1. Is what you wrote in accordance with the Christian trinity? I know you will refuse to define your trinity.

2. Can this be singularly relied on when John the Baptist in Christianity is regarded as pure? How did he remain pure despite Satan touching him at birth?

3. Is Jesus a co-creator of all life? What he is said to create is solely by him or leave of Allah to serve as a sign regarding the truth of who sent him?

4. Is this impossible for Allah to do?
What will you say of Idris a.s?

5. Who says it wasn't a necessary miracle? Is this not another sign that the rebelling Israelites also reject/refute?

IslamVIRGINS:
Is quran the book of the Jews or Muhammad was a Jewish?

The Quran = the recitation of revealed scripture is for all mankind.

It is in continuation and finality of revelations to mankind.

Did one God create the entire universe or many?

Does God change from place to place?


The Quran is A book for all mankind be you Arabian, Hispanic, Asian, Jew or African.

IslamVIRGINS:
Quran disagreed on the Crucifixion of Jesus

Do the Jews in Judaism agree with a crucified Messiah? Judaism views that Jesus was executed by the Romans.

Basilides in the first century, believed that Jesus was saved from crucifixion and that someone else was substituted in his place on the cross

Opponents of Ignatius of Antioch too.

IslamVIRGINS:
Vomiting trash upon trash, quran is in disagree with the personality of Jesus from the Bible where the story was copied from!

You don't have to take Muhammad serious, you have to see him as a fake being entirely

He holds the world record of the first man on earth to have married a child of 6yr of age

What disagreement outside the over eulogisim of his person by claimed followers?

Do they both agree on his virgin birth?

Do they agree on who his mother is?

Do they agree on his upholding that there is one God above all things?

Do they agree he was sent to the Israelites?

IslamVIRGINS:
There are many books written before your Islamic books (quran & hadith) were compiled. We read about Muhammad married a 6 yr old girl and started having sex with her at the age of 9yr old.

Do your research and tell us anyone found guilty in the same suit or worst than Muhammad that married a 6yr old girl child then I will take you serious

The nonsense screenshot you pasted above without any proof to justify for it. Did you think people living at this time at s!lly and m@d like Muhammad that couldn't control his prick and sexual huge against little girl child?

The Quran is not the first religious book and isn't in disagreement with the genuine messages in previous books given to previous prophets about the oneness and absolute power of the almighty.

Gisella of France born about 0908 in France was married to Rollo recorded in Norman annals for 912. This puts her age as 4.

Cecile of France was first married to Prince Tancredo at the age of 8/9. Tancred, Prince Of Galilee was 31 years old. They ended their 6 years, 11 months marriage in 1112 due to the Prince's death. He however had someone commit to marrying her after his passing.

The screenshot is nonsense? Did you make any effort to verify it?

The age of sexual consent.
R. Kourany, R. Y. Hill, M. Hollender
Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law

IslamVIRGINS:
Is there anyone caught in criminal act of sleeping and having sex with a 9year old girl in this period?

Are you for real? Do you deny reports of present time abuse of this nature? I am simply pointing you to the truth that the age restriction of regarding females under 10 didn't come before 1885. That the law exists doesn't mean it is strictly obeyed.

Do you deny the truth that some girls begin the onset of puberty at this age? Over half of girls worldwide experience the onset of puberty at ages as early as 7 or 8.

IslamVIRGINS:
Are you trying to justify the pedophile fake prophet of yours?

There's no need to justify anything. Check the lowest age of females at marriage. The fact that society has reviewed certain standards doesn't mean there are no outliers.

[/quote]

IslamVIRGINS:
What is this pedophile follower's saying??

See the age of Consent for females in Delware in the 19th century.

That isn t terribly long ago.
Historically, the age of consent has been much lower than it is today. In some American jurisdictions in 1899, for instance, it was as low as 9 years old.

Consider the number of times the temple of Jehovah was taken over idolatry.
idol worship overtook the temple through a combination of leadership failures, societal pressures from surrounding nations, and a gradual erosion of faithfulness among God’s people.

Is it so difficult to appreciate that at some point idolatry overshadowed monotheist worship in the Kaaba before prophet Muhammad pbuh corrected this?

TV01:
Thanks for your response.

None of this addresses the outworking of mutah and misyar as widely practiced in Islam today. Or the fact that they are both thinly-veiled means to sanctify illicit sex.

As stated, it informs my thinking that Islam has no objective morality, only the halal\haram notion'


TV

However you define and understand is your entitlement.

Temporal or arranged marriages is part of human existence from history to date despite what is commanded against it. It is one of many points of mankind's arrogance at temporal gain or pleasure.

Sahih Muslim 1406 h
Rabi' b. Sabra reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle pbuh prohibited the contracting of temporary marriage.

That some will twist and misinterprete the directives is not in any way strange, alas! At the end everyone will know and be rewarded

[/quote]

IslamVIRGINS:
What is this pedophile follower's saying??

See the age of Consent for females in Delware in the 19th century.

That isn t terribly long ago.
Historically, the age of consent has been much lower than it is today. In some American jurisdictions in 1899, for instance, it was as low as 9 years old.

TV01:
The verse below refutes most of your claims. Claiming "gender-neutrality" as posited, would actually suggests that same-sex marriage is a thing in Islam. Most mainstream Muslims would consider this heretical.

As for the point about "abolition of slavery in Islam", that is ahistorical at best. Saudi Arabia reluctantly ended slavery in the early 1960's forced by the British. Slavery is still extant in parts of the Muslim world. And please, spare me the the "society not religion" trope.

It's hard to see this response as anything more than an attempt to massage or whitewash the true meaning and intent contained within the Islamic scriptures. There is no true sense of classic vs. contemporary positions in Islam. Certainly not in it's mainstream beliefs and outworking.

Understand the desire to present the religion in the best light possible. I find most presentations of Islam are based on unfounded assertions and trumped up claims. The Koran, hadiths and narratives often contradict, with great effort spent to explain the differences.

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
١ قَدْ أَفْلَحَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ1 Successful indeed are the believers
٢ الَّذِينَ هُمْ فِي صَلَاتِهِمْ خَاشِعُونَ2 Who are humble in their prayers,
٣ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ عَنِ اللَّغْوِ مُعْرِضُونَ3 And who shun vain conversation,
٤ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِلزَّكَاةِ فَاعِلُونَ4 And who are payers of the poor-due;
٥ وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَافِظُونَ5 And who guard their modesty -
٦ إِلَّا عَلَىٰ أَزْوَاجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ6 Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
٧ فَمَنِ ابْتَغَىٰ وَرَاءَ ذَٰلِكَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ7 But whoso craveth beyond that, such are transgressors -

TV

Would you say the verse refers exclusively to males?

In classical Arabic, the masculine plural is used to refer to groups that may include men and women. This is a common grammatical feature in the language and does not mean gender identification unless this is clarified by context.


Saudi Arabia is the custodian of the two holy mosques in Makkah and Madinah, Saudi Arabia holds a vital position in supporting Hajj and Umrah while also safeguarding Islamic heritage. Nonetheless, the country's socio-political choices, modernization initiatives, and interpretations of Islamic law are shaped by its distinct historical and cultural background, rather than serving as a definitive representation of Islam.

There is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor of a white person over a black person, nor of a black person over a white person, except by taqwa (piety)." (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 23489)

Quran 49:13 O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted

The best of you are those who are best in character" (Sunan At-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1162).

TV01:
This may not be definitive, but a starting point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misyar_marriage - one thing is clear, it is still much debated and nowhere close to being settled in the Islamic world. Happy to be enlightened further.


Is Islam not valid for all peoples, everywhere for all times? As misyar is practised in the present day, slavery does not appear to be a driver, or even in view in any meaningful way.


Concubines aka sex slaves? If these temporary arrangements are "temporary in application", why are they still extant in various guises and the subject of much debate to this day?


Noted for discussion purposes, but without backing, assertions at best. Further, this does not present an "objective morality", or show that both these practices and derivatives are anything more than "slip roads" make sex available.
TV

Do a lot better than Wikipedia.

Islam is real and practical. At the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh an effective means of correcting social ills is seen. It wasn't draconian. Consider the stages to forbidding consumption of alcohol as an example.

The term sex slave implies coercion and abuse, which is categorically forbidden in Islam. Captives who made up those whom the right hand posses often became integrated into families, were treated with kindness, and were eventually freed.

Those whom your right hands possess in Islam was a regulated system meant to provide rights and dignity to captives, not to exploit them. It was a significant step in reforming pre-Islamic practices and ultimately led to the abolition of slavery within Islamic societies.

Ma Malakat Aimanukum should be understood within its linguistic context as encompassing various forms of relationships and possessions rather than being narrowly defined as referring only to female slaves. It
is gender-neutral and can refer to both male and female captives.

It can be understood as referring to individuals who are under one’s rightful possession or care. While classical interpretations have leaned towards slavery, contemporary scholars argue that this should be viewed through a lens of marital contracts rather than ownership in the traditional sense.

Lisan-ul-Arab by Ibn-Manzoor Vol. 13 also details this phrase to mean to marry.

TV01:
Really? How? In outcome they both make sex available - primarily to men, where it should be forbidden.


Hadith are not revelation. In round terms barely 1% of the written hadith are accepted, and even these are not universally agreed - within or between sects. They are typically deployed as a convenience or denied as suits. I find the whole notion of "hadith science" questionable at best.

And note the hadith quoted. [s]Allowed in the past, forbidden then, but to be re-introduced later - not objectively moral[/s].


TV

Please learn more about the Misyar you brought up.

This was tied to the socio-economic structure of slavery in historical societies.

Surah Al-Mu’minun (23:5-7) and Surah Al-Ma’arij (70:29-31) highlight that sexual relations are only allowed within the framework of a permanent marriage or with those whom your right hands possess. Those whom the right hand posses refer to concubines in that historical context. Temporary arrangements such as Mut'ah are not included in this allowance.

Relations with those referred to as whom the right hand posses were not time-bound. The relationship was not temporary like Mut'ah but part of the larger context of slavery, with provisions for eventual emancipation.

UncleAyo:
Here are examples of mentioning of idols in the quran.

1. Surah An-Najm (53:19-20)

The Quran mentions three among prominent idols of pre-Islamic Arabia:

"So have you considered Al-Lat and Al-‘Uzza? And Manat, the third—the other one?"
(Surah An-Najm, 53:19-20)

Al-Lat, Al-‘Uzza, and Manat

2. Surah Nuh (71:23)

"And they said, 'Never leave your gods and never leave Wadd or Suwa' or Yaghuth and Ya'uq and Nasr.'"
(Surah Nuh, 71:23)

Wadd, Suwa', Yaghuth, Ya'uq, Nasr.

You referenced 9 and present 8.

Particularly Wadd, Suwa', Yaghuth, Ya'uq, Nasr are mentioned in reference to the people of Noah.
Were they in Mecca?
Is there convincing proof that these idols were amongst those in the Kaaba?

UncleAyo:
Except you've not been taught by your quranic teachers that Muhammed (while still young), his father, his grandfather and his Quraysh tirbe (among other beduoin tribes) were 100% paganist and idolator or you're just trying taqqiyah on me whether it will work. Now go back and read what you wrote slowly and logically with the new info that they are %100 paganists and idolators.

Indeed most of the Quraish tribe before prophet Muhammad were polytheists, worshiping multiple idols and associating partners with Allah, some individuals among them held different beliefs or practices.

There were notable exceptions, such as the Hanifs and those influenced by Christianity or Judaism.

UncleAyo:
Infact, Illah is what the Arabic call God and not Allah. Allah was one of the diety been worshiped before the invention of Islam. That is why muslims will say something like "la ilah ila huwa" meaning Allah is one Illah (God).

Arabic has a general term for God, "Ilah", Muslims specifically use "Allah" to refer to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. The name "Allah" embodies all the perfect attributes and qualities of God as outlined in the Quran.

In Islam, Allah is the specific name for God used solely to denote the one true deity deserving of worship. Unlike a generic term for God, Allah uniquely identifies the Supreme Being in Islam.

UncleAyo:
Islam Is Idolatry And Paganism?

Historians like Vaqqidi have said. Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave twenty-seven names of pre-Islamic deities. From the Qur’an itself, we can name up to nine of these idols. The Ka’bah, housing many of these gods, has remained the temple of Allah and which Muslims revere and go to worship and kiss in the Mecca during the Hajj. It is significant to remind ourselves that even if a Muslim is not in Mecca, he has to face the direction of this shrine, Ka’bah, while praying every time. History says pagans in Arabia had been visiting Ka’bah on pilgrimage centuries before Islam started at all. Foreign merchants and Arabs faced the Ka’bah in prayer because that was where most of their gods were deposited. Many of the gods were brought by these merchants from their countries.

Interestingly, Muslims want to accept that Mecca was already being worshipped at this Ka’bah shrine in Mecca by Arabs and pagans before Mohammed came. They do not want to accept the fact that even the ways hajj was being performed in those days by the pagans: the shaving of hair, the running around the Ka’bah, the kissing of the black stone, the sacrifices, etc.

Some Muslims get flared up when they are confronted with these facts. But history is not on their side. Pre-Islamic
literature has prove this. In the Quran itself, we see that pre-Islamic pagan Arabs made their strongest oaths in the name
of Allah because they believed he was the most powerful of their gods (Surah 6:109), He was already regarded by the pagans as the creator, the lord of the shrine, the lord of Ka'bah, and the territorial god of the city of Mecca. Ka'bah was also known as "baithu'llah" ("house of allah". All other idol shrines in other regions in Arabia were also called "baitullah'. Mohammed said he had been called to worship "the Lord of this house (that is the shrine of Ka'bah)" (Surah 106:3; 27:91; 6:109). In that Surah 27:91, Allah was called "the Lord of this city (Mecca)". That means he was a territorial god. That is the reason for the pilgrimage, and the reason why every Muslim must face the direction of Mecca while praying. If he faces elsewhere he knows he is not facing Allah.

Apart from Allah, other major deities being worshipped by these pagans of Mecca are Al-lat or Allat (which is the Islamic goddesses, the feminine form of the word "allah". The other female idols being worshipped at the time are al-Uzzra and al-Manat (Surah 53:19-20), and they were all being worshipped inside the Ka'bah. According to Al-Tabari, the gharaaniq (female idols) were even regarded as daughters of Allah. Other popular idols were Wadd, Suwa, Yaguth, Ya'uq, Nasr, and Hubal which Muhammad's wife, Khadijah, too sacrificed to and worshipped because her sons to Mohammed were dying young (Surah 17:23; See also the book, The Life of Muhammad by Egyptian Islamic scholar, Mohammed Haykal (p.69).

One other proof that Allah was already being worshipped as an idol in Arabia is the fact that Mohammed's father was called Abdallah or Abdullah, meaning "the servant or slave of Allah", and yet he wasn't a Muslim! He was an idol worshipper, and was named after that idol.

Some have taken this to mean that Allah must therefore be almighty God. But What this can only prove is that Allah was alread known in Arabia to be a supernatural being. It is NOT a proof that he is God Almighty


TO BE CONTINUED

____________________________________
Book reverence: Who Is This Allah?
_____________________________________

Also, previous Threads:
1. Mut'ah: A Divine Prostitution
2. Kaaba Of The Bedouin Tribes

I wonder if you are seeking peer review or poking fun.

Did you substantiate that 9 Idols are mentioned in the Quran or blindly copy to paste?

Al-Waqidi’s works focus more on the Sirah (biographies of Muhammad) and early Islamic conquests rather than on pre-Islamic theology.

Waqidi does not explicitly state that Allah was one of the 360 idols in the Kaaba, as one might envision the physical statues and idols worshipped by pre-Islamic Arabs. Instead, he implies that Allah was among the deities revered by the polytheistic Arabs, but not in the same manner as idols like Hubal, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, or Manat.

While Al-Waqidi's writings mainly concentrate on early Islamic history, they have faced criticism regarding their reliability. Some of his narratives may be shaped by later theological views or misinterpretations. There is no clear and widely accepted assertion from Al-Waqidi that Allah was an idol; such a statement would contradict the core monotheistic message of Islam which denounce idol worship and promote belief in the One God.

The claims that Al-Waqidi suggested Allah was just another idol among many, must be a misunderstanding or oversimplifying his work.

Waqqidi acknowledges Allah as a major deity within a wider polytheistic context, without equating Him to lesser idols. He highlights Allah’s importance as a primary deity worshipped by certain tribes, especially the Quraysh. He points out that although many idols were honored in Mecca, Allah was distinct as the creator and sustainer.

His writings illustrate how various tribes honored different idols, while also noting that some people called upon Allah for particular needs or in times of distress. This reflects a nuanced relationship between monotheistic beliefs and polytheistic practices.

TV01:
Mutah is practiced mostly by the Shia sect. Although widely condemned by the majority Sunni' faction, they practice something similar called misyar. Is there evidence for "abrogation"?


TV

Misyar however it's seen is clearly different from Mutah.

Ali reported that Allah's Messenger pbuh forbade Mut'ah and the eating of the flesh of domestic donkeys on the day of Khaybar."
(Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1407)

The Messenger of Allah pbuh said: 'O people! I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women. But Allah has forbidden it until the Day of Resurrection. So, anyone who has such a woman in his possession, he should let her go, and do not take anything of what you have given them.'"
(Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1406)

UncleAyo:
In Summary: The thread discusses Mut'ah marriage, a temporary union in Islamic tradition allowing a man to marry a woman for a specified period in exchange for money, without formalities like witnesses or registration. Historically practiced in pre-Islamic Arabia, it was later permitted by Prophet Muhammad, as referenced in Islamic texts and supported by some scholars using Surah 4:24. Critics argue that Mut'ah complicates Islamic laws on adultery and prostitution, undermines Sharia, and contradicts even Biblical moral teachings, raising questions about its divine approval. The practice remains controversial and widely debated within and outside the Muslim world.

Glad you started with the truth but diverted in later discussion.

Mut'ah did predate Islam and was initially permitted, it was ultimately prohibited by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh as part of the comprehensive reform of pre-Islamic practices.

istamtaʿtum in the verse 4:24 is often understood as referring to the lawful enjoyment of marital relations not temporal marriage

The journey of the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land, as described in the Hebrew Bible, features several notable instances of idolatry.

The spread of idol worship from Israel to areas such as Syria and Yemen can be linked to trade routes and military conquests. As the Israelites engaged with neighboring nations through trade or conflict, they exchanged cultural practices, including religious beliefs. For example, the worship of Baal gained popularity in both Israel and its neighboring regions due to its allure as a fertility deity.

Amr ibn Luhay is credited with bringing idolatry from Syria to Arabia.
According to traditional accounts, he journeyed to the Levant, where he encountered idol worship among the local inhabitants.

Prior to the rise of idolatry, many tribes in Arabia adhered to a form of monotheism that can be traced back to the teachings of the prophets Ibrahim (Abraham) and Ismail (Ishmael).

Isn't Israel key to idolatry?

Hubal was a Moabite deity imported into Mecca.