₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
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It is statements like this that make one recoil.

But you won't recoil if someone acts as both Father and son in a movie using different costumes. Would you?

It only shows how spiritually illiterate you are. The Father is Spirit and the Son was physical. They were not in the same realm.

Who tells you that the Father cannot jump into the physical realm from the spirit realm to make himself the physical son of Himself?

Boomark:
FxMasterz see this also

I can pick holes in your interpretations but you can't oppose mine. I don't do capital R and small r letter things. Capital G and small g things. You are at the mercy of authors who chose capital or small letters. Who is who from the bible is what matters. It is obvious that you don't even know who God the Father is, you ignore any where you see him in most of the scriptures you quote. This is caused by delusion.

The God of the Old Testament

Acts 3:13 GNT
[13] The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has given divine glory to his Servant Jesus. But you handed him over to the authorities, and you rejected him in Pilate's presence, even after Pilate had decided to set him free.

John 8:41-42, 54-55 NIV
[41] You are doing the works of your own father.” “We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.” [42] Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
[54] Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [55] Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.

Yahweh (God the Father) is the God of the Israel(Jacob) and God of the old testament. Jesus Christ is his servant. Jesus told the Israelites that the One who they claim is their God is the one that sent his. Jesus said that he listens to the Father and obey him. There is nothing like capital and small letter nonsense here. This came from the mouth of the Israelites and from Christ himself.

You don't know this that is why you misinterpret scriptures because you don't know who is who.

Do you agree that God the Father is the God of the old testament?

The word

John 1:1 NIV
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This place is talking about two Gods.

1. The word was with God. This is God the Father not the word himself. The word cannot be with himself.

2. The word was God. This is for Christ.

Moses was also a God (Exodus 7:1). How about the idol in Athens called the Unknown God (Act 17:23). Leave capital and small letters alone.

Saviour.

God the Father, the God of the old testament is the only savour. See how. We know that you can even call someone that came to your rescue your saviour(saving someone from a bad situation). But this is not where we are going to.

Isaiah 43:11 LSB
[11] “I, even I, am Yahweh, And there is no savior besides Me.

Acts 2:36 NIrV
[36] “So be sure of this, all you people of Israel. You nailed Jesus to the cross. But God has made him both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 5:31 LSB
[31] This One God exalted to His right hand as a Leader and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:23 NKJV
[23] From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—


It is God that made Jesus Lord and a saviour. God is the only true saviour. Without him there is no salvation. Any he makes a saviour is a saviour. It comes from him alone. Someone who was equipped and sent to save a people cannot boast to be the only saviour. But the one who did the sending can say that without me, the people will not be saved. The will of God that Christ told you about is yl6 command from God to him to save the world. Jesus answers a saviour because his God made him so.

Focus on the source. Cherry picking of scriptures can cause delusion.

Do you agree that God the Father is the one who made Jesus a saviour?

Titles

Even Nebuchadnezzar was called king of kings. Titles does make any one equal to God the Father.

John 17:7 NLT
[7] Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you,

Jesus received everything from God the Father which includes: life, authority, words, works, glory, judgment, and exaltation.

John 5:26 HCSB
[26] For just as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted to the Son to have life in Himself.

Before the Father grant this life to Jesus, does Jesus have that life? No. He received it from his God.

It is obvious you don't even know God. He is the Father. The one and only true God.

Creation

It is God the Father that made all things alone by his spoken word. The word which was made flesh (Jesus) is God's spoken word.

Isaiah 44:24 HCSB
[24] This is what the Lord, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb, says: I am Yahweh, who made everything; who stretched out the heavens by Myself; who alone spread out the earth;

Psalms 33:6 NKJV
[6] By the word of the Lord the 9ooheavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

John 1:3, 14 NKJV
[3] All things were made à Him, and witàhout Him nothing was made that was made. [14] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) made everything alone. He made all his stuff so we could get it things by his spoken word, by the breathe of his mouth. His word was made flesh and is called Jesus.

This is why the bible says that all things were made by or through Jesus (the word of the Lord). He is the spoken word of God.

This part is the reason why you misinterpret the scripture. Understand it.


Judgement

Judgement is the judgement of God the Father. See how.

Acts 17:31 HCSB
[31] because He has set a day when He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed. He has provided proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

John 5:22 NKJV
[22] For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

The Father has set a day in which he will judge the world. He will not do the judgement by himself but has raised Jesus from the dead, appointed him, and committed all judgement to him. God will judge the world using Jesus Christ.

You don't understand the scriptures you posted because you don't know the Father. The only true God Jesus told you about.

You cannot oppose these things that came from the source of life, titles, salvation, judgement, and all creation. Avoid cherry picking. Make sure you know the Father, the one God over all and you will see things clearly.

Please let me ask you a question. Before I ask the question, let me first clarify that we do not reject anything the Bible says about Jesus. We believe that Jesus has a Father but He Himself is the Father. He is The Everlasting Father according to Isaiah the prophet. You're the one who believes that Jesus is indeed a child born to us, but not the Everlasting Father that the Child was called. Isaiah said the Child is to be born to us. You believe that. He also said He shall be called The Everlasting Father. You rejected that. You believe one part of the Scripture instead of believing the whole. Now this is my question:

1 Corinthians 10:4 says Christ is the same Rock that followed the Israelites through the wilderness. Are you saying that this scripture is incorrect and that Christ is not that Rock?

I want you to answer A or B:

A. Christ is not that Rock. 1 Corinthians 10:4 is incorrect and false.

B. Christ is that Rock. 1 Corinthians 10:4 is correct and true.

My reference to the capital R is for you to understand that the Rock with the capital R referred to Yahweh. That's what the translators want us to understand. Or, Are you saying the Rock referred to is not Yahweh? Please answer this question, and answer the one above by choosing A or B.

DeepSight:
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Quite interesting, nevertheless I would warn you not to assume. I find it hard to understand that a six year old reads and understands the bible fully, but I had fully read it many times by about 14; and have read it many times again over the years. Along with the Quoran and other works of interest. Not that this matters, I am just advising you against assumptions about strangers and chest beating.

Particularly because what we have read does not change what is written there in black and white.

To the topic, if you say there are verses affirming that Jesus is God, does it not then make it obvious that the whole book is immensely contradictory?

Bear in mind we are talking about selected books put together by the Roman Curia by tens of writers across many centuries.

Well, I'm not chest-beating. I'm only telling my reality. I started reading early in life. I began reading the Bible at age 4. Finished the New Testament at age 6. Started preaching powerfully at age 9. There were 5 years between 1994 and 1999 where I had my own internal retrospections to examine and ascertain the authenticity of my faith. Those years, I studied other religions, made a forage into the world for pleasure, and experimented other things before God Himself arrested me again in 1999. And since then, I have not had any lapse regarding my relationship with God through the Bible. This year is still young for example, and I'm already on the Book of Ezekiel, meanwhile I started again from Genesis. The Bible is like my daily food. And I know that very few people read the Bible the way I do. Your credentials are solid too but I don't think you actually ever understood what you read. Otherwise you wouldn't become agnostic. I appreciate your advice actually.

Now, back to the matter at hand. There's nothing contradictory about Jesus being God and being Man. Jesus is fully man and fully God. You need to understand the Plan of God for man, for you to know why God had to come down as man. God coming down as man does not stop God from being God, and does not immediately make Him irreversibly Man.

Man can only be fully man and not fully anything else. That's man's limitation. Not God's. Apart from that Scripture in 1 Corinthians. 10:4, hear what was said about Jesus before He was born:

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel—One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2.

Do you understand the origin of Jesus? He has an origin from eternity past. It means, He has no beginning. That's not a mere man. Then join that to several other Scriptures that refer to Him as God in one way or the other. That's apart from His own personal declarations in Revelation as "The First and the Last. The Almighty." Isaiah explicitly prophesied the Child that was to be born and called Him "The Everlasting Father."

Now, that may confuse you if you're not well grounded in the Truth. And indeed, you should be confused and consider it contradictory because it's nothing close to the experience of man. And, as I have always said, only a man-made God can be fully explained and be fully understood by man. Even a child does not understand adults until he becomes an adult. How can a man be able to fully understand God who has a nature entirely different and far removed from human experience? We only explain God according to our limited human faculty and language. God is far more mysterious than anyone can explain.

Now, I do not base my theology on what anybody says or what any denomination says. I read the Bible for myself to get answers to any question I have. So, my position is ALWAYS the position of the Bible, not a denominational doctrine.

You may not fully comprehend the dual nature of Jesus but you can come to the realization that God came to earth as man to help man solve a problem that was too much for him to solve. He became fully man, and that didn't stop Him from remaining fully God.

DeepSight:
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How do you know how much I have read the bible? ? ?

Because my depth of Bible reading is quite a rarity. I quote chapters without memorizing them due to familiarity. I finished the whole New Testament at age 6. And I've been reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation several times a year for almost half a century. You cannot read the Bible like I do and become agnostic or start saying God does evil because He said He created evil.

DeepSight:
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Several verses there make it clear that that same man cannot be God and I don't need to read them for you one by one, do I?

What about the several verses that declare the same man as God. I have 3 whole threads deducted to that.

I've read the Bible a whole lot more than you do. You cannot know what the Bible says than I do. All the scripture you quoted are scriptures I know like the back of my hand. And none of those scriptures say the same man CANNOT be God as you claimed.

DeepSight:
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I have addressed this many times on this forum and here are the verses I have repeatedly cited. cc FxMasterz

D1 - I Tim. 2:5: - For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus Christ”


D2 - John 14:28 – “I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I”.


D3 - I Cor. 11:3 - “But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God “


D4 - Eph. 1:15 - 17. - “15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”


D5 - I Pet 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"


D6 - Mark 10:18 - “So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”


D7 - I Cor. 15:28 - “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”


D8 - John 15:1 – 10:“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 “By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.


D9 - John 20:17 – “Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”


D 10 - John 17:1 - 8 – “1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 “I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 “Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 “For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me."


D 11 - Mark 13:32 - “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”


D12 - Acts 2:22 – 24 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 “Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[b] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 “whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.


D13 - Luke 22:41 - 42 – “41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.” (The Prayer in Gethsemane).


D14 - John 8:40 - “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”


D15 - Luke 23:32 - 34 – “There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”


D16 - Matt 21:33 – 42 “33 Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 “Now when vintage–time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 “And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another.

36 “Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 “Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 “But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 “So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’

(The Parable of the Vineyard)


D17 - Matt 27:45 – 46 “45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”


D18 – Mark 16:19 – “So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.” [And all other scripture which refers to Christ as sitting at the Right Hand Side of God, including Psalm 110:1, and all similar scripture in the Book of Revelation].


D19 - John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [Only Begotten Son - "Monogenes" - and all other verses in scripture where the term "monogenes" i.e: "only begotten" is used].


D20 - Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear o Isreal, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

We do not deny that Jesus was a Man. The scriptures posit that Jesus is both man and God. All the scriptures you quoted above are His man scriptures. We have several scriptures that also speak of Jesus as God. Then, we also have scriptures that unite His Manliness and Godhood in one entity, such as that Corinthians 10:4. In Revelation, there was one throne, and both God and the Lamb were found on the same throne.

A balanced knowledge of Scripture acknowledges Jesus as God and Man. If 1 Corinthians 10:4 says that the Rock of the Old Testament which is Yahweh was Christ. It is heretic to say that Rock is not Christ.

We believe in the whole Bible and not just a part of it. All the God and Man Scriptures of Jesus in the Bible are Devine and are believed by true Christians.

gidgiddy:
Did that prevent the authorities invading his house to kill him and killing several people in his house?

In a sane society, Buhari government was supposed to be probed for this. Igboho committed no crime.

AderonkeOlaniyi:
Useless Tinubu aka certificate fraudster. Igboho was remove from wanted list for doing same thing Nnamdi Kanu is being imprisoned for.

You must first mention one murder incident attributed to Igboho, or any incitement against government he made. Tell me if Igboho ever ordered anyone killed like Kanu did.

Boomark:
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I didn't want to reply you but having gone through all responses on this thread, I will refer you to one thing Tctrills pointed out to you, and then stop. Your issue is that you read only half of the Bible and not the whole Bible. Only the whole Bible makes sense, not half of it. There's no balance when you cannot join scriptures that call Jesus a man with those that call Him God. You cannot say others are delusional for believing the whole Bible. Jesus is not a God, He is the God of the Old Testament. The same One who is the First and the Last. The Alpha and Omega. The Everlasting Father. The Rock. The Saviour. The only one Lord. The Word who is God. The Bible didn't say the Word is a God but that the Word is God. Stop twisting the Scriptures.

Tctrills gave you this Scripture which I want you to solemnly meditate upon in conjunction with all other related scriptures already given you, if you indeed believe in the God of the Bible:

1 Corinthians 10:4, talking about the Israelites during their Egypt to Canaan journey says:

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Notice the capital 'R' in the writing of the word Rock in both instances. Compare it with what Moses said in Deuteronomy:

"For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges" (Deuteronomy 32:31)

Please understand that the rock with the capital 'R' demotes Yahweh - the God of Israel.

Take note of the small r in their rock and the capital R in our Rock. 1 Corinthians 10:4 says, that rock with the capital R is Christ.

The Rock of the old testament is the Christ of the new.

DeepSight:
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Surely you know that there are even more explicit verses saying Jesus is not and cannot ever be God?

Absolutely false. There are no such explicit verses that say Jesus cannot ever be God.

I understand that you're very ignorant of the Scriptures. For you to even say in a previous discussion that Yahweh did evil and was known to practice wickedness, you are indeed very ignorant. You shouldn't be found making flat assertions about what the Bible says or never said. You don't have that knowledge.

I know your position of God being evil is premised on certain judgements God executed on wicked people as detailed by the Bible. You only saw that judgements without arming yourself with the knowledge of the background events. You accuse a father of being wicked for severely disciplining his child without enquiring about what the child did to warrant such punishment.

For example, God ordered the annihilation of the Canaanites by the Israelites after waiting 500 years for them to repent of their extreme wickedness. These people would burn their own children alive by forcing them to walk through the fire as a sacrifice to Molech their god. There was extreme wickedness in the land. God told Israel specifically, "I am not giving you the land of these people because of your own righteousness. I am giving you their land because of their extreme wickedness . And if you turn around and commit the same wickedness they committed, I will punish you more heavily than I punished them." And, that's exactly what He did. I can take you through Scriptures to make you see the severe punishments Israel also suffered when they also sinned. Israel only remains a nation because God made a covenant with Abraham and He didn't want to break the covenant. Otherwise, they would by now be extinct.

I asked to educate you by giving you the liberty to bring up every instance of evil you attributed to God in the Bible, but you refused because the spirit aiming at your eternal condemnation would not have you know the truth.

DeepSight:
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How can one be testing delusions with delusions.

Like TenQ already said, which is in correlation with what I told you about existing frequencies of perception that are far beyond humans; those in the 2D world consider a 3D world a delusion. Those that mean that the 3D world doesn't exist? That you can't see it, does not mean those who do see it are let's. You're just more limited because you didn't develop certain of your faculties to interact with higher frequencies

AMINDA:
Has it reached this stage? Why then did Tinubu supervised the signing of the agreement if he intended to renege? A president's words must be worth something, let alone, a signed agreement. Tinubu did same to Makinde, Elrufai, now Wike and soon, Shettima. Agbadorians call it master strategy.

Tinubu didn't renege on any agreement. The agreement was made to settle a rift between two PDP members at loggerheads with each other. But now, the PDP factor is dead, and so is the agreement.

Mirasteel:
I hope you know that isis was created by US? they kill and behead more Muslims than Christians.

Just give me the proof. Not hearsay.

Why is it that only Muslims can accept to inducements to kill and behead others in the name of Allah? And you've got to give me proofs from very trusted and verifiable sources for your "America created ISIS lies", obviously told to you by your lying imams.

Mirasteel:
Everyone is jealous and full of hate because the religion is growing rapidly, the more the hate the more people revert.

Growing rapidly only in the head of the terrorists. How exactly is it growing rapidly? By beheading kafirs? How does a religion grow by killing others?

Mirasteel:
All I see is islamaphobes on this thread.

If isalam is peaceful and good, why do islamosphobes exist? Why is there no Christianophobe, Hinduphobe, Buddhismophobe, but only islamosphobes in the whole wide world? Islam is a religion of terrorism. Everyone fears for their lives.

kingschariot:
He is accountable to God and not you, are you the one that called him? That’s where men make mistake. God is the judge and rewards every man. Remember judgement will begin in the Household of God, however it is not within the jurisdiction of any man to assume God’s role in this matter. He who has an ear let him hear.

You mean that man that had sex with a married woman, broke her home and shared her nudes among his friends is a pastor? He even had friends that are like himself. 😆. May God have mercy on some of you.

Dogalmighty17:
New York Times.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called President Donald Trump on Wednesday and urged him to “postpone” any plan to attack Iran following the mass slaughter of pro-democracy protestors in the country, reported The New York Times on Thursday.

Trump surprised many during an Oval Office Q&A on Thursday, saying, “We’ve been told that the killing in Iran is stopping, and it’s stopped, it’s stopping. And there’s no plan for executions, or an execution, or executions.” He later added that his administration would take a “wait and see” posture before following through on Trump’s promise to intervene if Iran killed protesters, which it has done en masse in recent days.

The Times added some background to Trump’s apparent flip-flop, reporting that “Netanyahu spoke to Mr. Trump on Wednesday, the same day the American president said he had received information from ‘very important sources on the other side’ that Iran had stopped killing protesters and was not going forward with executions. That appeared to signal that Mr. Trump was backing away from a potential U.S. attack on Iran, which he has been weighing for days.”

The Times noted that Trump could also be following the same playbook he used when he struck Iran in June, which included contradicting signals as to whether or not he would order the strike.

Other U.S. allies in the Middle East — Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman and Egypt — also asked Trump not to attack Iran, warning of a “wider regional conflict,” reported the Times.

https://www.mediaite.com/media/news/netanyahu-asked-trump-to-postpone-us-attack-on-iran-over-protestor-slaughter-ny-times-reports

They have started again.

This is how they spread lies. A religion if lies, lies and more lies.

Give us NY Times verified link where Netanyahu pressured Trump against attacking Iran.

That's how they started lying that Israel was begging for ceasefire during the 12 day war. Someone who has absolute control of your air space will beg you for what?

Without lies, Islam dies.

Goodvibes007:
They are controlling their own domain.

Governor Makinde and the Oyo state house of asembly started the rotation for justice, fairness, and equity.

Truth be told, if not for Ibadan, Fulani would have colonized the whole of Yorubaland. They deserve their flowers.

If not for Ibadan, alot of us would have been bearing names like AbdulRaman, Abdullahi, Abdulmalik e.t.c just like in Ilorin. The Ibadans were the ones that stopped the conquest of the Fulani jihadist at Oshogbo on the their way to dip their sword in the Atlantic ocean as per the desire of Uthman Dan Fodio.

But Ibadan was an army base for the Alaafin. Ibadan was prolly Oyo Army. The Bashorun of Ibadan was the Chief of Army staff to the Alaafin.

Your judgement is not balanced.

[quote author=tctrills post=138136517][/quote]My brother, I have had 3 kids now all grown up. So, I understand babies well. I'm not talking about instructions but talking about you acting on them with force. He's indeed not a robot, and I never said so. I said he's next to... Because he's just so 'maleable'.

They actually have good as their nature. They dongood by nature, not by knowledge. Their minds tends towards doing good without pandering towards evil at all. We still have a measure of that state even now.

For example, if someone offends you, you mayy.neve4 think of murder, no matter the gravity of the offence, there are some people who might think of murder just because of the same offense. There are still people who will never think of murder. The idea would never think of murder at all. It will never even cross their minds until a very wicked person suggests it like Satan did Eve. They know that murder exists but they'll never even think of doing it. It won't ever occur to them to do to it until someone else starts telling them how right and easy for them to do it.

Good was their nature, and infact, it was the nature of the whole world. God saw that everything He created was Good.

[quote author=tctrills post=138136709][/quote]You see that you're the one who's guilty of what you're accusing me of. You even said the Bible didn't tell us how many years it took Adam to name and keep memories of what he named. Did the Bible ever say it took him years in the first place? Just because you want to win an argument? The fact is that Adam was a highly intelligent being. ChatGpt is an highly intelligent machine. You can understand that or ChatGpt because it's all a matter of programming, data training and data storage which can be pulled like something being pulled from a database. Adam had no such databases, and yet his intelligence beat that of ChatGpt. Modern day humans can't match his feat.

You still didn't get it. I'm not even using my logic or anything. I'm only telling you the reality of your position. If they don't know good and evil, then, they would do good without knowing the they've done good. In the same vein, they'll do evil without knowing they've done evil. That means they'll just be doing anything without knowing the import of their actions. Then, God would be wrong to judge them for eating the fruit because He didn't create them to lnowbw what they're doing. This is why your position sucks. The only way they'll be able to do good alone without doing evil is for them to know the difference between the two. Then, they'll avoid doing evil and do good only. Except they're zombies created only to do good without any sense of doing anything else. How then would God test loyalty? Infact, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil losses relevance if they don't know good or evil. It's useless for God to instruct them not to eat it. God instructed them not to eat it because He knows they'll understand that disobeying Him was evil, and would therefore not do it. However, I'm telling you that it never even crossed their minds to disobey God. That's how God created them. They had no knowledge of the fact that evil can be carried out. It didn't even ever occur to them that 'we can do.evil'. They had no such knowledge only Satan lectured them on that.

tctrills:
Oga, a 2-year-old, is not comparable in any way to a robot. In fact, a 6-month-old baby is not comparable to a robot. Yes, Adam was not a baby, but he had the same innocence thats why we made the comparison.

Of course he is. You can ask those who kidnapped and criminaly taken children away in a sack.

Again, we all can do what you are doing. Anyone can change the word of God and claim to know the deep things of God, so that would not fly. I don't care if it is the deep things or the shallow things; it must be supported by scripture, not human logic.

You didn't change the word of God to claim deep things. You meditate, ask questions and seek enlightenment from the Holy Spirit to see what lies beneath the letters.

Your last paragraph has nothing to do with the topic. The bible never recorded whether Adam knew and understood evil or not. So I advise we stick to what is revealed. As Christians, we do not add or subtract. Nothing in the bible indicates that Adam knew evil, so let's not rely on guesswork.

I have not added or substrated anything. Except you do not understand what I've been saying.

What I'm saying is that the knowledge of Good and Evil is not that of merely knowing.

Knowledge is of many types and levels. You need to find out which type of knowledge they lacked in order to understand that scripture. And I told you that the type of knowledge they lacked was an inspirational one. The inspiration to do evil wasn't there. They didn't even realize that they can do anything of such even though they know evil exists.

In God's standard, evil or wickedness is to go against the Word of God. Adam and Eve didn't even dream of the possibility of doing that until Satan came.

tctrills:
Yes, Artificial intelligence is different from natural intelligence, so what's your point? The ability to give something a name is not one of the greatest shows of human intelligence. Even babies name things.

Not the ability to give something a name. The ability to name multiple things, infact 100s of them in one day and keep the memory of each animal named without recording them anywhere is a feat.

To your question, I already answered. Even though our kids are innocent, we still teach them consequences for their actions. After Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they were no longer innocent and could not live in their former state. The punishment God gave them was the best thing He could do for mankind. It was the only way to redeem mankind. He did it out of love and care for us.

Let me ask you, what was the worst punishment mankind received because our first parents ate the fruit?

Have I answered your question now?

You don't understand my point.

If Adam and Eve don't know good and evil, then, they'll do good and evil without knowing it. They'll commit evil without knowing that they committed evil. That's going to be a chaotic world. And, that means they are the forbidden fruits without knowing it was evil to eat it. Hence, God was not supposed to judge them since He created them that way. They'll just do anything and when then do evil, thru wouldn't know it's evil.

tctrills:
No, I don't need to explain what you think, I only need to believe what the bible teaches and not adjust it to fit my logic. But then lets look to your points.

1. Your 2 years old doesnt know good or bad, is she a robot?

2. Again. why scolled you 2 years baby for messing up when you know she is innocent? Let's look at the judgment God gave to them.

He made them work hard; life was not going to be easy anymore. This is one of the best things that has happened to man. It has led to great innovation and creativity; we no longer depend on a garden for food. Their action also brought forth Jesus Christ, the greatest blessing ever to mankind. It does not show injustice; it shows great love.

3. Yes, they were innocent and were in a protected garden, where they did not have so many choices for good or evil. So as long as they remained in the garden under God's protection, they were not going to do some thing dangarous. (This point is just my opinion)

4. Just because it doesn't fit our logic doesn't mean we get to change the scripture. If the scripture says they knew no good or evil, we accept it without looking for a way to slim-fit the truth to fit our own doctrines.

A two year old is next to a robot. That's why you can control him anyhow. You can't do that to a 12 year old. You might even have to explain why you want him to do what you asked him to do. The difference is clear. Adam cannot operate like a two year old and still have the control of the world. Adam was not in that eye old state. A two year old cannot name so many animals in one day and still retain all those names in his memory. A careful study of Scripture reveals that Adam, before his fall was a super being. He was not even enticed. Love made him eat the fruits so as not to isolate himself from his wife. That's not a two year old level man.

I have not contradicted or reinvented the Scripture in anyway. Most people miss it because they read only the surface of Scripture. Whereas, there's what is called "The deep things of God." Proverbs 25:2 says "It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter (and God actually conceals a lot), but it is the honor of kings to search it out.".

Your position puts God in a rather conflicting position with His character.

Knowing good and evil in Genesis is more of experience through action than head knowledge.

I have asked you several times if the word "knowledge of Good and Evil" which is the name of a tree in Eden was alien to Adam. He didn't know what that name means? He didn't even have the term 'evil' in his vocabulary? That tree had no meaning to him?

tctrills:
No, Adam and Eve are His children, and He gave them the one choice to choose to know good and evil or to remain innocent forever in the garden. The choice they made came with many chanleges but it also presented opportunities and great blessings.

If they don't know good and evil, how would they make choices?

After eating the fruit, they did not become more like satan but they became more like God. The Lord said, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. The knowledge of good and evil is a treat of God. Again, being able to name things and the ability to choose are not the same thing. ChatGPT can name things, but it is more of a robot. So that point is not valid. Intelligence and ability to make moral choices are not entirely the same thing. That is why so many really smart people make very bad choices,

We know how ChatGpt operates. That's different from flesh and blood naming things. That's not programming. That's intelligence. And yeah, ChatGpt is intelligent. Called AI for that matter.

But you didn't answer my question. The question is that, if they don't know good and evil, they do not deserve any punishment or curses from God for eating the fruit since they didn't even know they were doing evil.

tctrills:
My guy, I don't hate you. Fxmasterz seems to think the bible is wrong for teaching that Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before eating the fruit

The Bible is not wrong. It's your own understanding of that statement that's wrong.

If they didn't know good and evil as you are thinking, then:

1. They were zombies. Robots.

2. Even when they were eating the fruits, they didn't know they were doing anything evil. Then why should God judge them if He created them not to know what they were doing? Then, it was injustice for God to curse them. That'll be very unjust.

And it gets even more disasterous because if they didn't know good and evil, it also means they could do good and also do evil without knowing what they did. That's a very dangerous world. It's very illogical. You can't even come to terms with such s world. That'll be a very chaotic world where the inhabitants are unaware of the chaos.

You would have to explain these two situations above if you think they didn't know.

tctrills:
If you aredoing good unknowingly, then it's not your choice. You are more like a useful machine. Just like my car that does me real good without knowing.

That means God actually created zombies. But from the look of things, that want the case. Adam consciously and intelligently named all the animals that were brought to him.

fergie001:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G02eD4XxYmQ

Dr. Ijeomah Arodiogwu
APC National Vice Chairman (South East)

Obi should tell us where James Nwafor is!

Dtruthspeaker:
Fxmasterz


The question is, if Adam did not know good and evil, what then was he doing?

That is
1) were they doing good, even though they did not know it?

Or

2) were they doing evil, even though they do not know?

And the answer is that they were doing good, even though they did not know it.

I believe they knew they were doing good. Without that knowledge, they wouldn't also know if they were doing evil. That means Cain didn't know that killing Abel was evil. In that case, it would not be just for God to reward good or judge evil.

Kobojunkie:
Hogwash! 🥱🥱🥱🥱

I am with China on this. Religion is some sort of mental illness that strips individuals of the ability to comprehend all things, including life as it presents itself. 🥱🥱🥱

According to the junkie himself.

Even attributing to China what China didn't say. China specifically said 'Islam' but the junkie heard 'religion'. 😂

tctrills:
You are missing an entire half of the picture. Was satan the AC engineer that also taught them to do Good? Remember, it was not only evil that the fruit opened their eyes to.

See, Good never need be learnt in Adam's early days. It was a nature. Just as today, evil needs never be learnt. It's a nature. No one teaches an infant to disobey. He just disobeys. That's all. That was how Adam was. His nature was to do good. The fruit gave him a double nature. Satan didn't teach him to do evil. He only brought him into the awareness that evil can be done. I didn't get anything close to that in illustration, that's why I used the AC engineer example.

Again, you seem to be writing a new bible. The bible we have says they had no knowledge of Good and Evil, but you have changed it to, " they had no knowledge of how to commit evil.

But let's stick to the good part for a while. If we must believe you, it should also mean that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of how to do good. They knew good could be done, but had no inspiration/motivation for it before satan the AC engineer, taught them

As I said above, they had a nature. My position is very consistent with the Bible. What we call the Adamic nature today is the desire to do evil. The awareness to do evil and even enjoy it. Though we know that Good exists. Today , Good is hard to do but evil is very easy because it is a nature. This was the opposite of what Adam had in the beginning. Evil was hard but good was easy because it was a nature.

The Bible called the tree "Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil". How can you say Adam does not know what that name means? The Bible hides deep truths to be discovered as gems. They knew evil exists but had no awareness of carrying it out. It wasn't in their nature.

tctrills:
You are saying that Adam in the garden knew to do good but did not have the ability to do good until he ate the fruit?

The yahoo example doesn't cut it. If you don't know how to do yahoo, you don't have the choice to do it. That's simple.

The bible was clear. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of Good and Evil.
They had no idea what good or evil was.
They didn't even realize their unclothedness.

So comparing Adam to a prospective Yahoo boy is wrong. A would be yahoo boy already knows that yahoo is wrong meanwhile, this is what the Lord said about Adam

Genesis 3.22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Note,
This lack of knowledge wasn't limited to Evil. It was an ignorance to both good and evil

Let me give another illustration here.

You have an A/C is your house working perfectly until it became faulty.

Except you have been introduced to A/C repairs before, it would never even cross your mind to make an attempt to repair that A/C. The A/C could remain in its faulty state for years even though you know it can be repaired, you wouldn't even touch it because it never crosses your mind to even see what's inside, let alone attempting a repair. It will be there gathering dust until you call an engineer on it. Even if all engineers say they're not available for the repairs, you won't even yhi6if doing it yourself. But, once any engineer arrives and opens the A/C in your presence and he repairs it in your presence, that changes things. Next time if it has a fault (especially if the engineers say they're unavailable), you might decide,"let me me attempt this thing myself, it might be just a small disconnection "

This is the situation with Adam and Eve. They didn't even go around the tree to examine the fruits on it because it didn't even cross their minds. But once Satan (the A/C engineer) came into the picture, he taught them how to disregard God's instructions and do whatever they think is good for themselves. They now know how to carry out their own wills and do their own biddings.

This was the situation of Adam and Eve. They knew evil could be done but had no inspiration/motivation for it. This is also for Deepsight.

tctrills:
You are saying that Adam in the garden knew to do good but did not have the ability to do good until he ate the fruit?

No, I didn't say that. That's your own interpretation of what I said is that they knew that evil exists but they did not know how to carry it out. They didn't even have the slightest sense/, intuition /trigger/enlightenment to carry it out. Their understanding did not include "how to do evil". The only know evil can be done. The desire and the how was not there.

The yahoo example doesn't cut it. If you don't know how to do yahoo, you don't have the choice to do it. That's simple.

Not that simple. You don't know how to do Yahoo because you don't have the desire to do it. You don't even have the sense of doing it. It does not even cross your mind to do it. Otherwise, you'll find out how to do it and then do it.

The bible was clear. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of Good and Evil.
They had no idea what good or evil was.
They didn't even realize their unclothedness.

They had no understanding about carrying out good and evil. That instinct to do good or evil was not there. They just only knew hiow to do whatever God wanted them to do. They knew good and evil exists. For example, when God told them not to eat of the tree of the 'knowledge of good and devil's, did it sound like jargons to them? They understand exactly what God meant. But the desire to do what God does not want was not there. It didn't even cross my minds.

For example, today we carry the opposite nature of what Adam and Eve used to be. The average sinner does not know how to do any good. It doesn't even cross his mind to do good. All he wants to do is to satisfy and please himself according to his lusts and fleshly desires. He doesn't care a out what God wants or what others want. Before the fall, Adam cared only about what God wants. Everything changed after the are that fruit.

Love is the root of all righteousness. Selfishness is the root of all evil.

So comparing Adam to a prospective Yahoo boy is wrong. A would be yahoo boy already knows that yahoo is wrong meanwhile, this is what the Lord said about Adam

Genesis 3.22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

As I have explained, that is to understand the workings of good and evil. To know how to carry them out. To have the desire to do them with selfishness now taking the upper hand, they have they desire to do evil more than good after eating the fruit. This desire wasn't there at the beginning.

Note,
This lack of knowledge wasn't limited to Evil. It was an ignorance to both good and evil

The ignorance is in not knowing how to carry out the acts or even desiring them. The instinct was not there. The only instinct that was there is obedience. They knew they could disobey, but the instinct to carry out disobedience was not there. They didn't even ever approach the tree to.examinebthe fruits until Satan called Eve's attention to it.

These are very deep things that I don't even have the right words to express certain things. Maybe this can give deepsight more light.