₦airaland Forum

DeepSight:
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A creator of evil cannot blame the evil it created.

No. He didn't.


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Such sacrifice that the said Christ lamented it by -

1. Praying that the cup should pass over him?

So that you can appreciate the sacrifice.

2. Crying that the father had forsaken him?

So that you can know that you were accepted of the Father.

And thirdly such an alleged sacrifice does not square with justice if one person has to bear the sins of another.

It does, because He literally took the place of the sinner and took his sins upon Himself. He claimed He was the One who did everything you did.

Even after the same Bible claims that whatsoever a man sows the same shall he reap.

Yes, that's the law. Then Jesus came to reap your sins for you because you cannot actually do any better. You have no such powers.

DeepSight:
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Your argument doesnt work once you claimed that good can only be enjoyed with the presence of evil.

That's not my argument.


My claim is that good can only be appreciated in the presence of evil. It makes you have a sense of enjoyment otherwise you wouldn't even know what enjoyment is.

LordReed:
It doesn't matter. You claimed it was necessary. If not it is not necessary in heaven then you must concede that the possibility exists.

The conditions are different. That's why it matters.

What matters in Nigeria may not necessarily matter in the USA.

Earth is not a standard for heaven.

DeepSight:
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1. He expressed regret for his action creating man

No. That's not the kind of hurting we're talking about. Here, it was man that hurt Him. If you feed your dog and do it nice things only for it to turn against you one day and bite. Can you be blamed for that? Nobody will say you hurt yourself for what that dog did to you.

2. If you are a trinitarian he hurt himself by hurting Christ

No, that's love. Hurting others for some selfish gains is what sin really means.

Love can hurt itself for the benefit of others. That's sacrifice.

DeepSight:
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By this definition Yahweh sins also since he has hurt himself according to the Bible.

How did hurt Himself?

LordReed:
I didn’t see any screenshot.

If evil will be purged then it is NOT NECESSARY! Or are you saying there is no enjoyment of good in heaven?

The conditions of earth are not same with heaven's. The same rules don't apply. Apology for omitting the screenshots. Here are they below:

PulsingPurple:
Me wey get history with him since the day I asked him to prove his wife has love for him, and than in return I'll prove God exists. 😂😂

And since he did want that proof...he absconded 😂

DeepSight:
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Can you define sin please

Sin is anything that hurts or wrongs God or man or yourself.

LordReed:
Kindly produce a link to a scientific study that says evil must exist so we can enjoy good.

Since you didn't want to make the research as I advised. I have copied what I said to Google so you can have a reason to research it. A few screenshots of the results are attached below.

Address why you believe there is no evil in heaven.

Evil is not a direct factory product. It's a by product of sin. The more you sin, the more you produce evil. Lucifer was the first to ever sin , and that sin brought evil into being. God had to cast him out and all his accomplices to punish them on earth. Heaven was purged. Earth would eventually be purged at God's set time too. All evils would be quarantined. With a different body and newly refurbished earth, we would have a different experience on earth.

LordReed:
Thanks for the compliment but I have to hand it to DeepSight and budaatum for their calmness and even-keeled handling of discussions. I strive to copy them in that manner.

You're right about these two people. You can add pulsingpurple to the list.

LordReed:
That is completely untrue. You don't even believe it because you believe there is no evil in heaven. You actually believe in the possibility.

Do you claim to be scientific? Just copy and paste what I said to Google or any AI and come back with the response. You can't claim to be scientific and still be arguing against science.

And I believe it totally. Heaven has nothing to do with it. Heaven has a condition different from that of earth. Also, the body we take into heaven is not this same body we carry on earth. It's a changed body that aligns perfect with heaven:s rules and laws. This body here aligns with Earth's rules and laws which requires evil in order to enjoy good.

I'm pasting my submission here again for you to copy and research: "You're not getting it. You didn't seem to understand what you're saying?

The only way you enjoy the rice is because there are bad rice. If there are no bad rice. You would just be eating the rice without any sense of enjoyment. If there are no lows, you cannot understand heights. If there's no darkness, you cannot understand light. If there's no sadness, you won't value joy. If there's no captivity, you won't value freedom. You won't even have any sense of enjoyment. What I just told you is philosophically and psychologically sound."

LordReed:
No. I am not asking you to mix shit into the jollof so I can appreciate one without it. Good can be entirely without evil (hypothetically anyway as far as this universe is concerned). Or do you think there is evil in heaven?

You're not getting it. You didn't seem to understand what you're saying?

The only way you enjoy the rice is because there are bad rice. If there are no bad rice. You would just be eating the rice without any sense of enjoyment. If there are no lows, you cannot understand heights. If there's no darkness, you cannot understand light. If there's no sadness, you won't value joy. If there's no captivity, you won't value freedom. You won't even have any sense of enjoyment. What I just told you is philosophically and psychologically sound.

AntiChristian:
What did he copied from?

Where is the evidence? Screenshot!

If i asked you what the evidence that Paul met Jesus you'll quote Paul or Luke (Paul's boy) to me right?

Gospel of Thomas is a lie sha!

Everyone of the disciples testified that Paul met Jesus. The first was Barnabas. Not even Luke. Peter and James, the leaders of the disciples after Jesus certified Paul. Who certified Mohammed? Who certified that indeed Mohammed split the moon? Who certified that indeed Mohammed met Allah?

Answer me o.

LordReed:
Hard disagree. You don't need evil to enjoy good, you just need differing degrees of good. It is like saying you need to eat shit before you can enjoy jollof rice, no you don't.

Do you understand that when you say differing degrees of good, that's a mix of good and evil in different proportions?

AntiChristian:
Show us all the sources where he copied from? You lie about Gospel of Thomas don burst!

Tell us who witnessed Jesus walking on the sea too?

The lie burst only in your head. I attached a screenshot evidence from the very beginning. Mohammed copied , no doubt. He plagiarized. Especially the clay bird miracle thing. An even that never happened that found its way into the Quran from a rejected book.

AntiChristian:
Since you know memorization was an Arabian culture why did you lie that he copied many books? You even lied about the Gospel of Thomas!
Show us who has memorised the Bible in its original language!

The Arabs too never denied the moon splitting miracle! It was as clear as the day! Just as some particular Egyptians witnessed the red sea event, some particular Arabs witnessed the moon splitting event.

Abeg, how does memorization prove the authenticity of the Quran? How does that disprove plagiarism? You can copy anything from anywhere and then memorize the compilation. How's that difficult ?

Now, tell us verifiable sources of witnesses who witnessed the splitting moon that was as clear as day.

AntiChristian:
You call it a lie yet you have no evidence at all! The liar is clear!

Show us just one person who has memorised the Bible wholly in its original language?

Of course he did as it is clear Moses spilted the sea!

I have given a screenshot that let's you see that memorization was Arabian culture before Mohammed. The Bible is larger than the Quran, yet many people have memorized large portions of it but it isn't the culture of Christian and Jews to memorize the Bible, otherwise, we'll also have 'memorizers'.

The Egyptians never denied the Moses story, did they? They're even building a bridge across the same sea to link Saudi Arabia. Guess the name of the bridge? Moses' Bridge!

The sea was parted to create road for the children to pass over when there was no road elsewhere. God had to move. So, why did Mohammed divide the moon? In order to cross over it into Jupiter? God does not do anything without a reason. And, the moon being divided can only be believed by brainwashed people. Who saw Mohammed dividing the moon? Hahaha!

jaephoenix:
What are the primary use of vehicles? Is it to kill people or movement? If it does its primary function most of its times, then the vehicle makers are right.
Same logic goes with medications. Pharmaceuticals make them with the intention of curing disease but if people die of the occasional side effects,then they are right
I wonder how this relates to an omniscient god who creates Satan knowing he'd mislead humanity

All these are not necessary my friend. The point is that vehicles are imperfect. That does not mean they have no creator. And the fact that they have killed people does not stop the creators from continuing creating them. Simple!

But, as I have always said, you've never been sincere and honest even with yourself in conversations. The only atheist I respect on this forum is lordreed. Very honest and civil.

We're discussing with you that you have 0 knowledge of the universe and therefore cannot make any conclusions until you know all that's out there. Lordreed in all honesty agreed that investigations still continue, while you're here talking offpoint and arguing aimlessly.

I wouldn't respond to you anymore. What I know is that you cannot talk in absolutes concerning what is and what is not in a universe you have 0 knowledge of.

AntiChristian:
It clear you have no verifiable evidence. My evidence is in the memorization of the Qur'an. Muslims right from the time of the Prophet have been learning it by heart! There was no literature review on any kind of manuscripts like your Bible. This is clear. Even your claim about infantile gospel of Thomas fell through!

Ye japoro!

I pity you. Keep defending lies. Obvious lies o.

Anyone can memorize anything. There were 'memorizers' before Mohammed, and 'memorizers' would not cease after him. How's memorization an evidence to anything? Even his contemporaries accused him of plagiarism.

Did Mohammed also divide the moon true true?

Lol.

Antichristian2:
You first need to acknowledge you failed woefully mixing up The gospel of Thomas with infantile gospel of Thomas.

I know you won't accept the truth that you erred and you have no special holy spirit guidance in you!

What books did he copy? How was the literature review done with all he accomplished within 23 years?

He was not even know to have written anything!

Anyways! Telling lies is a trait!

Go and ask ChatGpt. Even all AIs attest to the fact that Mohammed copied. Except you're brainwashed, you wouldn't be asking unnecessary questions.

jaephoenix:
Good. So he created both good and evil,right?

If there's no evil, how can you enjoy good? You'll be a zombie or robot that dies not know how to enjoy. You won't even have any sense of enjoyment.

jaephoenix:
Are vehicle manufacturers omniscient? No! You keep on equating your god with mortals and then turn around to ask why atheists laugh at christians

Vehicle manufacturers are not omniscient but they're knowledgeable enough to know that vehicles have killed many people, yet they keep producing them.

I'm not equating God with mortals, I'm coming down to your level using what you can relate with before I can even tell you deep things.

jaephoenix:
I dont know when you suddenly developed poor comprehension skills,but lemme try again.
Who trampled on Pharaoh's freewill by hardening his heart so he can kill more Egyptian babies?
Who connived with Satan and destroyed Job's family(without their knowledge or permission) even though he knew the outcome of the bet?
Who forced Nehemiah to leave his house,city and run? Even forced a poor whale to gobble up Nehemiah? Na by force to preach?
Please answer these questions sans mental gymnastics

Before Pharaohs heart was hardened, did he have any regard for God? If God later hardens his heart so as to show the world His might through him, what'd wrong with God using one insubordinate fellow to teach millions of other insubordinate individuals a lesson? His heart was hardened only a few days before he was punished, what did he do with his unhardened heart before those days? He spent it reviling the God of Israel. So, God decided to make a show of him.

What you're describing about Job and Jonah are not related to freewill. Job was tested, passed the tests and got rewarded. Jonah had a covenant with God to obey God as a prophet. He broke the covenant and God held him responsible for his actions.

Your 10 year child has a son relationship with you. If you send him an errand and he refuses to go, telling you "na by force?", what would you do?

jaephoenix:
I'm waiting. But better make it quick cos I migrating soon

If God wills that we meet before we move, we'll meet.

Wherever you go, God will someone else for you if you're in His plan.

jaephoenix:
New York was mentioned in Spiderman. Going by your analogy,Spiderman is real. You see why I talk say u suppose go school.
I asked you a question which you dodged (your normal way)
DO YOU BELIEVE UNICORNS EXIST

Offpoint.

The reason you know spider man is not real is because you know absolutely what's real in New York. The same logic does not apply to the universe where you know absolutely nothing about what exists out there.

AntiChristian:
What inventories? It was said that people do keep items with him and he do return them as they gave it to him! This certainly doesn't need education at all. He could even have people doing it for him. And we can even say he had a sophisticated memory that he could remember all his transactions! If he is lettered according to you then show us which school he attended and who were his teachers?

Lol. Hear yourself out. You're comparing business accountability with neighborhood safekeeping. Are they the sane thing? Who would appoint a business manager that cannot read and write when there are several others who can? You're even asking me what Inventory? Is this how you want to keep defending the indefensible?

AntiChristian:
Managing business in a caravan means a person is literate? Now your IQ is clear. Probably you think he is preparing balance sheet and profit and loss account back then!

Na so you guys dey think!

My dear, balance sheets are not the things a business manager does. Leave that for the accountant.

But, he'll take inventories dear. He'll record events, supplies and important dealings to be reported to the business owner. He'll read all correspondence and make important notes. Tell me who'll give his business to someone who can't do all these when there are thousands of others who can.

Antichristian2:
Other gruesome acts of Herod were recorded. So why was this not recorded? Josephus didn't omit it. It never happened! Not all biblical prophecies were fulfilled. I know the created "Matthew" was trying so hard to make Jesus fulfil certian prophecy but it is clear it never happened historically. You can argue till tomorrow! There's no record of any baby killings historically at the time of Jesus birth and infancy!

You can't even differentiate between the Gospel of Thomas and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas! I think i am right to call you a typical Galatians 3:1. You don't even know what you are saying and you'll write a long prose upon error!

The Gospel of Thomas has no miracles but are sayings ascribed to Jesus! Your actual miracles claim are present in infancy Gospel of Thomas which describes Jesus's childhood and filled the gaps left behind by the Bible. It was written around the 2nd Century CE.

Let's see the differences between the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Qur'an!

1. Miraculous Birth
Qur'an:
-Jesus is born miraculously to the Virgin Mary (Maryam) without a father by the command of God.
-The Qur'an highlights this as a sign of God's power and Jesus' special status.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
-Does not focus on the birth narrative.
-The text assumes Jesus' divine nature and focuses on his childhood miracles.

2. Nature and Types of Miracles
Qur'an
-Jesus performs miracles by God's permission, including:
-Speaking as a newborn to defend Mary.
-Healing the blind and lepers.
-Raising the dead.
-Creating a bird from clay and breathing life into it.
**These miracles serve as signs to confirm his prophethood and God's power.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Focuses on miraculous acts performed by Jesus as a child, such as:
-Forming birds from clay and bringing them to life.
-Multiplying grain to feed others.
-Resurrecting playmates.
-Controlling natural elements and performing supernatural feats.
-Some miracles show a childlike, sometimes temperamental Jesus, with stories of cursing those who offend him.

3. Theological Emphasis
Qur'an:
-Emphasizes Jesus as a prophet and servant of God, not divine himself.
-Miracles are signs of God's power and Jesus' mission to guide people to monotheism.
-Jesus is sinless and humble.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
-Emphasizes Jesus' divine power manifesting even in childhood.
-The miracles sometimes portray Jesus with a more human, even capricious, character.
**The text is more legendary and less theologically restrained.

4. Purpose of Miracles
Qur'an:
-Miracles authenticate Jesus' prophethood and call people to worship one God.
-They demonstrate God's authority and mercy.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
-Miracles illustrate Jesus' supernatural nature and divine origin.
-They fill narrative gaps about Jesus' early life with legendary stories.

So where exactly did your Holy Spirit see Muhammad copying from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas?

I really pity you my friend. Is this hoe you want to continue defending the deception called Islam? Mohammed copied lies from books, added his own stories and made everything into a Quran. Who doesn't know this? Do you think it was only from the book of Thomas he copied from? Fake stories o. You're even saying he covered the gaps that were left in the Bible.

Not all.of the Bible's prophecies were fulfilled? At least you admit that some have been fulfilled, and the ones yet fulfilled are still future. Josephus didn't write his history for the Jews or Christians. He can arguably omit events if they didn't come to his memory at the time of writing. The writers of the Bible wrote for the times they lived in. The stories they narrate ate read by those who were alive at the time of the events. You cannot publish a book of events in Nigeria today and start writing things that didn't happen. Can you? You'll be called out. Infact Mathew stood the risk of being arrested for publishing a false narrative about Herod. Think my friend.

Disinfectant123:
So because I said that Taiwan would get invaded by China some time in the future and it happens doesit make me way ahead in my time?

That's not detailed and precise. What I'm telling you to research is detailed and precise with striking fulfilments like a recorded video playing from the scripts of prophecy.

AntiChristian:
You just keep parroting the same think like a broken record! There was no historical records for Herod killing babies despite records available for many of his other attrocities!

So the unlettered Muhammad copied from many sources! Type it in AI and see if it is possible to write the Qur'an by an unlettered man in Arab 1400 years ago in 23 years. And all these textual compilations were done mainly by memory! So being able to count money and do money arithmetic means he is educated/ not unlettered? So you haven't seen some elders that have such skills despite not having any formal education? Waoh! You be real low-level Gala- 3:1.

Mohammed was actually lettered. That 'unlettered' narrative was a lie. Being able to count money is one thing, bring employee by a business manager is another. Mohammed was a lettered business manager.

DeepSight:
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A notorious plagiarist for sure.

Very correct bro!

I don't know why people like Antichristian cannot just see the deception. We're talking about a Mohammed who divided the moon into two. Mohammed surely thought the moon was like some tomato in the sky. So, after dividing it, he joined it together again? Wonders shall never end? These guys don't even know the level of destabilization the action would cause for the earth and for the cosmos if that was to happen.

Antichristian and his fellow Muslims should know that the moon is a body just like the earth, having landscapes, waters and hills. Just that it is not built to sustain life. It's not a tomato in the sky that can be divided into 2 by anybody.

Antichristian2:
Did you even examine the link you posted above? It even confirms my position. There is no historical evidence Herod killed babies as written in Matthew.

Historical Evidence and Secular Records
Lack of Secular Attestation: There are no contemporary secular historical records or archaeological evidence outside the Bible that directly confirm the massacre. Major historians of the era, such as Josephus, who extensively documented Herod's reign and atrocities, do not mention this specific event.

Plausibility of the Event: Despite the absence of direct evidence, scholars acknowledge that Herod was known for extreme measures, including the execution of his own family members, to secure his power. Thus, the event is not implausible given Herod's character and political paranoia.

Analysis from your link(https://biblearchaeology.org/research/new-testament-era/2411-the-slaughter-of-the-innocents-historical-fact-or-legendary-fiction) provides a nuanced view:

It states the massacre is unattested in secular records but argues the event fits the historical profile of Herod's reign.
The article discusses the possibility that the story may have been influenced by earlier Jewish narratives, such as the Midrash about Pharaoh's killing of Hebrew male infants, suggesting a literary or theological motif rather than a strictly historical report.

It also highlights the difficulty in verifying such an event due to the small size of Bethlehem and the limited historical documentation of minor local events in that period.

Scholarly Perspectives
Some scholars consider the story a legendary or theological construct designed to emphasize Jesus' significance and the threat he posed to earthly powers.

Others argue it could be a historical kernel wrapped in theological narrative, reflecting a real but undocumented atrocity.

Summary
No direct historical proof exists outside the Gospel of Matthew to confirm Herod's massacre of Bethlehem's infants.
The event is consistent with Herod's known ruthlessness, making it plausible but not verifiable.

The narrative may serve a theological and literary purpose, echoing earlier Jewish stories of infant massacres.

The Bible Archaeology article concludes the event remains historically unconfirmed but plausible, emphasizing the lack of secular evidence and the possibility of legendary embellishment.

Kindly digest any article before promoting it next time. Holy spirit won't help you read! You have to do it yourself!

Comparing the Gospel of Thomas and the Quran

The Gospel of Thomas and the Quran have fundamentally different purposes and theological frameworks.

The Gospel of Thomas contains esoteric sayings, some of which are cryptic or mystical, often interpreted in Gnostic terms.

The Quran’s depiction of Jesus is consistent with Islamic monotheism and prophetic tradition.

The two texts do not share a common narrative style or theological outlook; thus, direct comparison is methodologically flawed.

Historical, linguistic, theological, and spiritual evidence supports Muhammad’s claim of divine inspiration.

Your absurd comparison ignores the distinct contexts, genres, and aims of the texts involved. It's clear Holy spirit has failed you again as usual.

You wouldn't expect Herod to record such a gruesome act. Would you? Josephus omitted the event in his writings, that doesn't mean they didn't happen. Herod's killing of babies in Jerusalem was already prophesied in the Bible before the event. And like all Biblical prophesies that usually have striking fulfilments, this too was fulfilled. The link I shared with you defended the Bible's position maintaining that historical records about Herod indicates he is capable of such villainy.

You don't expect the book of Thomas to share theology with the Quran, do you? But the stories mohammed claimed were from Allah were actually in the book of Thomas. Meanwhile, all those stories were lies. They actually never happened. Jesus never made a flying bird from clay!. Mohammed was known to have copied from many sources to write his Quran, he then added his own words, and Muslims went ahead to cover up his tracts by claiming he couldn't read and write. Someone who was a rich woman's business manager cannot read and write? Dey play.