zodiakzax:
like I said, you are confused... I just can't stop laughing at your explanations. A learned person after the truth will diligently dissect my scriptures, and see that Jesus is said to have the attributes only God says He has. And I told you that, Jesus is said to be the creator of the world, and it is by Him and through Him that ALL things were created. God says I by myself laid the foundation of the earth. He could have said I by My Son or I by my Word laid the foundation of the earth,but He said I by my OWN Hand laid the foundation of the world. Heb 1:10, God saith of the Son, that "thou,Lord in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" but then you keep on quoting John 17 (I don't even know why you do that) it Is clear that Jesus was praying as a Man when he prayed that prayer. In vs 4 of. John 17, did Jesus not tell God that He had finished the work which God gave Him to do? Did He come as God to do God's work? No. He came as a man to do God's work ( and that is wht is confusing you guys). Then in vs 5 did He not tell the Father to glorify Him with the Father's own Glory? Which God says he shares with no one? Him calling the Father the one true God, doesn't it make sense to you? That Jesus as a man Has a God? Look honestly I have lost respect for you,your brethren and your organisation. I mean why would you change scripture to suit your doctrine? One appalling one is Heb 1:8. And I don't really Reply to ur comments bcs you make no sense. Sorry

What about now, I mean in heaven?
Does Jesus have a God?

easysunny:
One thing we should know is that everything about God is a mystery. You can't understand God with a canal mind. The mystery of Trinity will continue to be a problem to the canal minds. What Trinity simply means is that God appears into 3 forms(persons) but yet the same God Almighty ie God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Believe it or leave it.

The father has a name, the son does have a name.
If the holy spirit is a person what's his name? Show me to prove Trinity.

alexis:


JW teaches Jesus was created. You refer to Colossians 1:15 because of the word "first-born". Paul use of the word "first-born" was to show pre-eminence. First born doesn't mean first created. You guys do this because it is consistent with your theological presupposition that Jesus is a created thing.

A simple example is used in Psalm 89:20, 27 - it says "20 . I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him. 27. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth". The question then is - was David the first-born king. As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family, was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

Scripture best interprets Scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created as the Jehovah's Witnesses say it means here. "Firstborn" can mean the first born person in a family, and it can also be a title of preeminence which is transferable. In addition, He is the pre-eminent one in all things. The Jehovah's Witnesses should consider this when they examine Col. 1:15. They should also abandon the Watchtower which guides them in their thinking and believing.

Read the Bible and stop depending on theology from some old men in New York that you don't even know by name

And what can you say about revelations 3:14?

Berean Literal Bible
And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation.

New American Standard Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Now also take a closer look at that Colossians 1:15;16.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


I think your stress shouldn't even bother much on the word "firstborn", the fact is that he was created! And was created in the image of the invisible God, just like they say that someone is his dad's carbon copy.

Emusan:


Lol...it already stands from everlasting to everlasting that why you are here talking about Trinity.

Falsehood can't stand, unless to those that like and promote it.
Besides you guys invented it. It's not scriptural, when it's difficult to explain the next you guys say is that it's a mystery.
The truth is God wants us to know him. To have the true knowledge of him to gain eternal life and all we need to know about him is found in the Bible, stop inventing complicated doctrines.

zodiakzax:
Really? Did the statement really say because the Father is higher in position means they aren't one? Any learned person will understand what I wrote. Which part of having the same nature with the Father didn't you read? Which part of me saying Christ has the nature of man didn't you read? So no Sir, my statement did not say what you are implying, any reasonable person can see that.

If the father is higher does it not tell you something?
Won't he be under him or be a subordinate?
Or will you deny the fact that he worshipped God too?
Did he worship himself, since he and his father are one?

zodiakzax:
Really? Then are you saying these scriptures are wrong?

1 Timothy 2:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus..


What's does the Man Jesus Christ mean to you?

Rev 22:16 kjv “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID, the bright morning star.”

What does the statement "I Am the root and the offspring of David.." mean to you? "I am" present tense not "I was". Offspring of David makes Him still a Man and that was why He used the present tense "I AM" because He's still the Man Jesus not an angel.

Home work for you:

How can He be both the root and the offspring of David? If you can understand this you will understand why He is God and calls God the Father my God.

Jesus is the mediator between God and man, he was once a man and walked the earth. There's nothing in those portions that suggested he is a man like me and you in heaven.

Does it even make sense to you?

I asked you a question, why will Jesus remain a man even after he have accomplished his purpose of coming to the earth and gone back to heaven?

These portions actually shows that ur view about Jesus nature currently is flawed!

1 Peter 3:18
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:”

King James Version (KJV)

(Take note quickened or resurrected in spirit?

SPIRIT!

He wasn't such before being put to death in the flesh)


Again:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44King James Version (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Does this principle of resurrection not applicable to Jesus resurrection? Remember his resurrection will be a model for those who are going to be resurrected to heavenly life.

zodiakzax:
is that what you think the link is saying? Really? Lol.. you havn't made a Lil sense since you started with your arguments. Asking dumb questions and don't even know what you are talking about. Anyway I can only assume nothing we tell you will change your mind as John74 said, accepting this might mean excommunication so I understand, but remember Hell is real and if you don't open your eyes it might just get a grip of you and ur fellow JW's, repent therefore and be saved.

for your mind you are the one making sense

Maybe its your own Jesus that will remain a man forever, just listen to what you are saying. Why will Jesus remain a man forever?

brocab:
This just shows how ignorant you are, Nothing I had said' made a difference to you, you need to slow yourself down. We have answered most of your questionnaires, and still you had refused to return your answers concerning who Jesus is 'to His Father.
Does Jesus have a God At this moment?
The answer to this question is yes and no, In order to properly address this question, we have to learn a little biblical theology and a little logic.
First of all "Jesus has two natures; divine and human.
Second "Jesus was made under the law {Galatians 4:4} and was made for a while A little lower then the angels {Hebrews 2:9} As someone who was under the law it would be necessary for Jesus to obey the law, and worship God {In this case the Father John 17:5}
Thirdly "We have to be careful with the Word "God" we don't want to commit the logical fallacy of equivocation where the meaning of the word changes as we are using it. Let me clarify: With the next two sentences, notice the word "God" is used in each.
{1} The trinity is the teaching that the One God of all existence consist of 3 divine persons: The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
{2} The Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
In sentence number {1} The Word "God" is a quantitative, dealing with how many god's there are.
In sentence {2} The Word "God" qualitative, dealing with nature, that is the nature of divinity.
Yes Jesus who is the second person of the trinity and divine by nature, worshipped God the Father, under the Law {Galatians 4:4}
Jesus had humbled Himself and emptied Himself in the incarnation and was cooperating with the limitations of being a man while acting under Jewish Law. {Philippians 2:5-8}
Also Jesus is still a man {1 Timothy 2:5, Colossians 2:9} And will be a man forever {1 Corinthians 15:28, Hebrews 6:20, 7:25} Therefore it can be said that Jesus, the man, had someone he would call His God. And He was a reference to the Father, {Since He will always be a man, as well as divine} He will always have someone He will call His God, but this is in reference to God the Father.
That does not mean that Jesus does not share the same divine nature as God the Father since the bible say's that Jesus is also God made man. {John 1:1, 14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He say's, YOUR THRONE "O GOD" IS FOREVER AND EVER}

Your statement has said it all, the father is higher in position which means they aren't one person or three in one as you guys always want us to believe. But Jesus was created check your bible well. Besides like i said earlier its not about Christ's nature, bible clearly shows that Jesus exists in Gods form.

zodiakzax:
as we have been trying to explain to you, Jesus has a Father bcs He has both the nature of man and God. Jesus was never created. God the Father is higher in position not in nature. Am assuming you have an earthly father right? Good, are you not having the same human nature as your father? True, yet he's greater than you in that he is in higher position than you, and that position being that he's your father. Christ equally called God Father bcs it was the Holy Spirit who gave birth to Him and we are all to call Him Father bcs we share in the inheritance and righteousness of Christ and that is why it was expedient that His Spirit comes to dwell in us. In procreation of Christ through Mary don't forget what was at play. The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she was pregnant. Divinity and humanity ( a thing to be grasp).Still waiting for the scripture.

So being in God's nature make him his father?
Does that take away the fact Jesus have a God, creator and farther?

zodiakzax:
yet again you are talking like a child. Which scripture states that Christ was created by God? Show me please: And am telling you that just as the man is the head of the woman doesn't make the man less human than the woman. It seems you do not comprehend this statement. Jesus is God because He has the same nature as God. God the Father is the head in position not in nature. You still can't comprehend this. Pls let your other brothers talk on your behalf bcs it seems you don't know what you are talking about. Am still waiting for the verse that says God created Christ. Then you will see your folly.

solite3:
you cannot know God when you keep on denying the son.
Yes the scriptures contains what we need to know about God but Jesus is the full and final revelation of God, without him you will be blind.

see how shallow your thinking is, you think you know Jesus when you claim he is same as the father?
You clearly know nothing about Jesus because he never claim to be his God and farther.

Rubbish! Does the almighty God Jehovah have a head? No but the bible clearly shows that Jesus have God as his head! Christ was also created by God, if i show you where it is in the bible will take it?
The bible is very clear so stop promoting what's not in the bible

zodiakzax:
and yet again you wouldn't keep quiet on an issue you know little about. Did the man create the woman simply because he's the head of the woman? The verse you used doesn't make God the Father the creator of Christ simply because God is His head? No, then the man shld have created the woman. If I were you, I would have gone through my last thread so you can see that Christ is God and Christ created all things.

God wants to know him because its related to our eternal life!
Fortunately the scriptures contains all we need to know about God, so stop deceiving yourself. Trinity is unsuriptural!

solite3:

1 Corinthians 2:14 For the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]

Emusan:


No the issue is He is God, which begs for the question; how many God do you have?
Jehova the father of jesus will always be greater and always remain the God of jesus christ!
By the way did i just hear you say the holy spirit is also God? Continue



This shows that you don't understand the concept of Trinity yet you people will be shouting up & down diving into what you don't know.

FYI, the truth from the scripture is that:
Jesus is God
Father is God
Holy spirit is God

According to the scripture that's why Trinitarian solved this mystery by focusing on the NATURE of God not on the POSITION

No Trinitarian who doesn't agree that The Father is greater or superior than The Son (but in position).

Had it been that you understand Apostle Paul writings you would've understood that he used two positions to talk about man-woman relationship:

1. Man & Woman are equal by NATURE
2. Man is placed in high level (as the head) than woman in POSITION.

no matter how you try to justify the false doctrine of trinity it can never stand!

The holy spirit God too? Continue

zodiakzax:
you see how childish you are in your thinking? We say Christ is God because He has the same nature as God. In John 14:28 Jesus said "the Father is greater than i" In the first place, the term for "greater" (Greek - meizon) does not necessarily imply one who is greater in nature or essence. It can refer to someone or something being greater in position and/or authority, just as the following passages show:

"I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater (meizon) than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matthew 11:11

John being greater than all those born of women does not imply that the rest were less human than John, or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, the term must mean that John was greater in position and rank.Is God the Father the head of Christ? Of course in position but not Nature. Is the husband head of the woman? Of course in position not in nature. The woman is not a dog is she? Nope, she is human but the man is the head because the woman must submit and the man must rule over her. The same goes for the Son and the Father. They both have the same nature. Humans have one nature, angels have another nature and God has His own nature. So when it says God is the head of Christ doesn't make Christ less inferior in nature to the Father.Am just hoping you understand.

the issue is not about christ.s nature or wether he is a God or not. The point is jehovah is not the son jesus niether is the son the father, they are two seperate individuals and the father remains the God, creator and father of the son jesus. And these points will always make the trinity doctrine false to a reasonable person

brocab:
Don't you just love it, that not all Christians believe in your organization.
You must ask yourself why did the JW's try to change the bible. What were they thinking? The JW's has caused such a problem between other believers who also follow after Christ.
Do we all become a JW? because the JW's believe other religions are wrong, and the stories written about Christ is wrong also-look at Jesus and His disciples, the stories about them turned the world upside down..
The JW's believe the bible was written under a lie, and the true bible scholars were JW's who came into this world centuries later, to rewrite the truth who Jesus really is, He is the archangel Michael who came to earth to save us sinners.
And Jesus's true disciples were Jehovah witnesses who are the 144,000 who were sent to earth, to clean up this mess the world had made, and their job is correct the truth about GOD.
And even {John 1:1} had frighten the JW's because its a lie from the beginning? In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And the JW's believe the word was a god, Not the word was God.

Who told you all Christians hate JWs? Is false teachers like you that hate them because they expose you guys. And you incite people to hate them just as u are doing here by twisting whatever they say and spread hateful and false rumors against them. The word was a God, does it make him equal to his father creator and God?

Emusan:


If the word was God and the word became flesh (which we know as Jesus Christ) then Jesus Christ is God! Now, was those translations rendered John 1:1 as "...and the word was God" correct or not?

The issue is not whether he's God or not, the issue is the father is superior, the father is his God, the father knows certain things he doesn't know, and so on. Yet you guys claim they're one God.

1 Corinthians 11:3

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the womanis the man; and the head of Christ is God.” 

King James Version (KJV)

zodiakzax:
you speak like a novice, if you have nothing to say just keep quiet. Didn't you read "and the word was God"? So what kind of useless question are you trying to ask? Go and ask the writer why he said the word was with God and the word was God. And see your stupidity, if am assuming you are a Jehovah witness then why did you not use your translation and the word was a god?

I am a novice and a stupid person, yet I know that the Bible doesn't support false doctrines as Trinity. The father is God and father of Jesus, well you guys already said Trinity is a mystery because you are only confused.

1 Peter 1:3

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” 

King James Version (KJV)
1 Corinthians 11:3

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the womanis the man; and the head of Christ is God.” 

King James Version (KJV)

OLAADEGBU:


It's the body that sleeps, the spirit and soul of man lives on.

You said earlier that the spirit goes back to God.
Anyways can the soul and spirit be alive and the Bible says the dead are unconscious?

Well at least you learnt God doesn't judge the dead, when it's time for judgement they'll be resurrected.

johnw74:


You have to understand that they are one God, God is one,
and you have to understand that they are two persons,concerning John 1:1
I won't say more on the matter than that, with the disbelievers that frequent this place,
don't give your pearls to the dogs etc.
also others explain things much better than I.

theres plenty of good explanations given with scripture backing if you want to read them

here is one: https://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-11-word-was-god

brocab, you will like this, a good read:

One God?
Yet one is giving the other authority?
Na waoo, by the way john 1:1 didn't say they are one God.
John 1:1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word,and[b][/b] the Word was with God[b][/b], and the Word was God.

Two different persons, the word was with God. Can he be with God and still be the same God?

johnw74:



ummm, the subject is did dolphinheart call God and the Word a two headed god,

I showed that he did

I said he would twist and lie




Dolphinheart on God and the Word being God:





Lie Lie dolphinheart

1 Corinthians 15:24-28New International Version (NIV)

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, [/b]it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.[b]

28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

OLAADEGBU:


"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

Our decision here determines where we would spend our eternity.

So what are you trying to say?
It doesn't mean God judges dead ones, na that's not what that portion is saying. Nobody is been judge while dead, besides the Bible talks about the judgement day as something that is yet to come.
And dead ones will be resurrected and judged according to their deeds while they lived. So God is not judging spirits of dead ones or keeping them.
Yes after (death) judgement follows in the sense that once we die we can't do anything or simply put it's impossible to right any wrong we committed while alive, the next thing that awiats us is judgement!

Emusan:


The color part is the main issue here.

Of course it is there in the KJV and the rest of the translations he listed but the main point here is whether he agreed with those translations that "...and the word was God."

What's your stress with the part the word was God?

CAPTIVATOR:


and you think shouting Jesus is God is what it means to know Christ , ur case is pathetic I tell you.

Let him be deceiving himself.

brocab:
To explain these 3 questions lets look what the bible had said, but my question is to you, do you honestly believe in the scriptures?
{John 17:21} Father just as you are in Me I am in you.
{Romans 8:11} And if the Spirit of Him {God} who raised Jesus from the dead IS LIVING IN YOU" He who raise Christ from the dead, will also give live to your mortal bodies because of His Spirit who lives in you.
Human beings have been created with a Spirit Soul and body {Genesis 1:27} So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him male and female.
{Thessalonians 5:23} So may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may our hole Spirit and Soul and Body be kept blameless at the coming of our lord Jesus Christ.
It has been said we are not bodies with souls, we are souls with bodies, The body" the outer man is our physical housing which we experience the world. Our bodies function primarily through the five senses and by meeting innate that drives us to eat, drink and sleep, our bodies are not evil but are gifts from God. He desire that we surrender our bodies as living sacrifices to Him {Romans 12:1-2}
When we accept God's gift of salvation through Christ, our bodies become temples of the Holy Spirit. {1 Corinthians 6:19-20, 3:16}

That you have components that makes you alive now means you are more than one? Continue

Emusan:


Do you agree with the rendering of those Bible translations of John 1:1 or not? Answer my question and stop perambulating!

Do you mean those translations invented the wording of John 1:1?

Is it not part of the Bible?

John 1:1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

brocab:
That is true. And theirs no wondering why I see such.

So why are you avoiding dolphinheart questions? You read the part you like.

brocab:
And with your "spirit" and your "flesh and blood" these two "live as One, and you are alive.
Jesus had a "Spirit" too, His "Spirit was God"s Spirit" Both "Spirit" and "flesh and blood" became One, and living. The Father lived in Jesus and Jesus lived in the Father.
And Jesus said I Am alive.

Father lived in Jesus and Jesus lived in father?
Jesus is the father because he has God's spirit?
So you are saying my spirit is another person living inside me?

OLAADEGBU:


Read your Bible to have the big picture.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

So God is keeping the spirits of the dead ones?
Yet they are unconscious?

nynbrada:


Hmmm! It couldn't have been more succinctly put. This is the A,B,C of the doctrine of Trinity.

Hehehe, let me advance it a little bit,

TRINITY, simply means one eternal Godhead{supreme being} who has chosen to manifest or reveal himself in 3 seperate/distinct persons or being in the form of the, FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. These three persons or individual if i my use the word, are distinct and seperate from each other but all 3 are of the same substance(divine nature) and collectively they make up the eternal Godhead.

Though the term "trinity" is not found in the Bible, however, this does not in any way negate the fact that the teaching/doctrine is highly scriptural as there are a plethoral of verses in the scripture from the Old Testament through to the New, that supports and prove the validity of this doctrine.

It would certainly be a puerile/effort in futility trying to engage JW's, Unitarians, Atheists and their likes on this forum on such a delicate issue as these, as experience has once shown me. No matter how much scripture you bring forth to buttress and uphold your view, they will keep regurgitating the same dumb and silly position they are wont in doing.

So my advice, let them alone as this issue is a deep spiritual truth that cannot be grasped by an unregenarate/uncirumcised human heart.

Shallom.

So what's the name of the holy spirit? He's part of the Godhead, isn't it?

herald9:

Just imagine :
There is ONE God, God is THREE persons, EACH PERSON is fully God.

Mathematically,

1=3=1

Welcome To Quantum Religion

They are the reasons people mock serious and honest Christians, imagine what a Bible reader is saying.

brocab:
Yes that was the only thing I saw in that post that I found interesting enough to read.

You are free to see whatever u like, no wonder!