₦airaland Forum

Who Was Hermann Detering?
Hermann Detering (1953–2018) was a Hermann Detering was a German Protestant pastor and theologian. He was known for reviving the radical-critical view of early Christianity, arguing that the Apostle Paul as we know him was largely a fabricated figure. His work drew heavily from the Dutch Radical School, which questioned the authenticity of all Pauline letters.

1. Detering’s Core Thesis: The Fabricated Paul
Detering claimed that most, if not all, Pauline letters were either forged or edited in the second century. He believed that the image of Paul was shaped by theological needs and power struggles in the early Church.

According to his postulation Paul was not the founder of Christianity— The idea of Paul as a founder was a later church theological construction.
Most Pauline letters are forgeries.by church elders for theological purposes .Even the so-called undisputed ones were likely edited by church scribes or written later.
Paul is a literary figure~ He was constructed and created to serve the needs of various factions of the early church elders leaders and probably the Roman government of the day for power and control of the populace.

The Book of Acts is unreliable as an historical record or a historical evidence. ~It’s a second-century text aiming to tame and harmonize Paul’s image vis a viz the original apostles.

2. Marcion’s influence~The radical Paul may have originated in Marcion’s canon and was later revised. Marcion an early Christian leader believed in two Gods. The evil God of the old testament and the loving God of the new testament. He was the first personality to create a bibliography of old testament and new testament books which he called a bible. He was declared a heretic and banished from the church but apparently the early church leaders incorporated part of his philosophy to create the literary Paul according to Dettering's postulation.


3. Textual and Theological Evidence

Detering cited stylistic inconsistencies, theological contradictions, and anachronisms in the Pauline letters to support his claim. The Pastoral Epistles reflect second-century church structures such as ranks of Bishops and deacons. Shifts in tone and theology suggest redactions or multiple authors of these missives.

4. Early Christianity Was Divided and was a battleground between various factions such as the Jews/Judaism,the gnostics,the Marcionites, the liberals, the Christians and the Roman government of the day.
The figure of Paul was used and reshaped to resolve these theological conflicts amongst all these diverse warring groups.


5. Connection to the Christ Myth Theory
Detering leaned toward the idea that Jesus, like Paul, was more symbolic than historical. He believed neither Paul or Jesus were historical but were mythical creations of the early church.The gospel narratives were seen as theological fiction, not historical records.


6. Reconstructed Timeline of Paul (Detering's View)


30s–40s CE: A real figure like Paul may have existed.

100–120 CE: Marcion assembles and edits Pauline letters.

120–150 CE: Proto-Catholics react and begin rewriting Paul.

130–150 CE: Acts of the Apostles is written.

150–200 CE: Canonical letters and Pastoral Epistles finalized.


7. Theological and Historical Implications

*Christian doctrine may rest on edited or forged letters.

*The historical Paul is unknowable, or perhaps never existed.

*All Christian faith and theological thought was shaped by ideological editing and theological embellishing and not just divine inspiration.


Detering’s Message
Detering urged scholars and believers alike to distinguish between inherited tradition and historical reality. He believed that honest, critical examination strengthens faith rather than undermining it.

So if Paul's letters could be forged and the Acts of the Apostles is unreliable historical,how can we rely or believe in the gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke and John that were written latter?

See Tems singing at half time show....

MaxInDHouse:
@ SIRTeee15
I've told you to ignore this guy otherwise he will continue typing what pleases his cohorts as if that's the truth.
So the best thing to do is ignore him after all he's running away from questions therefore let him continue with his friends the Gospels has no rival as far as truth is concerned!

Anonymous gospels with no names of the authors NOT written in Aramaic but in Greek language. Research the history of your religion. Jesus wrote NO single text with his hand before he died. Neither did he build one church. None of the writers of the four gospels were witnesses to the Jesus ministry. The gospels are myths written from oral traditions and the the seven authentic letters of Paul over 60 years after the death of Jesus. Both the undisputed letters of Paul and the disputed letters of Paul preceeded and were written before any of these anonymous gospels! Mathew,Mark,Luke and John are NOT the names of the writers of these anonymous texts called the gospels. Nobody knows who really wrote those books,hence the numerous contradictions of stories of the same events.
Accept knowledge and enlighten yourself through research. Don’t gobble up all you read on Awake,Watchtower and other Jehovah witness false doctrines and propaganda. Educate yourself.
My last response to you.

Caveatemptor:
Very impressive presentation, supported by graphics and hard facts.
You are helping a lot of people to see the light that they don't want them to see.
Keep it up. Ignore trolls.

Thanks for this thumb up. The trolls are out in full force breaking all the rules and spamming the thread while the moderators look on in silence.
I will just continue the thread later in the day if I am not banned again.

Jesus Christ,who spoke Aramaic, never wrote a single word about his ministry.
Paul on the other hand after his visionary and spiritual dreamlike encounter with the cosmic Jesus became a preacher and missionary of his own idea of the ministry.
Paul wrote more than half of the books in the Bible new testament although only seven letters can really be regarded as undisputed letters. The undisputed letters of Paul are: Romans,1st and 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians,1st Thessalonians,and Philemon.

These undisputed Pauline letters are the earliest Christian writing and the texts preceeded the gospels of Mark,Matthew, Luke and John.
I repeat the Undisputed Pauline letters were written and in use in the early Christian Church long before the first gospel of Mark was written.
The fact that the four gospels which were totally anonymous and without names is another discussion in itself.

The fact that Paul's undisputed letters bear his name and byline written in the first person while the gospels which came later with no names and written in the third person is enough to show that none of the writers of the gospels were witnesses to what they wrote about.
The gospels were collections of myths,oral traditions which were written and embellished from the letters of Paul.
Note that Mark which is the first gospel writes about a human Jesus while the last gospel which is John embellished this Jesus into a Divine Jesus who is the same as God. As the years moved on from the first gospel the Jesus story also evolved and changed. This accounts for all the contradictions in the same stories in the gospel.


In essence Paul's message that he received from his vision with the cosmic Jesus on the road to Damascus is : Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected,is the Lord. It is through faith and not law that Christians are reconciled to God,filled with the holy spirit, made part of the church,while awaiting the return of the cosmic Jesus.
Paul does not seem to believe in a human Jesus who walked the earth but a cosmic entity he encountered through a vision.
This Pauline concept of Jesus obviously set Paul on a collision course with the other Apostles.

To be continued.

It is quite amusing how Christians love burying their heads in the sand when confronted by the truth about their religious book.
The answer this guy (typing with caps locked aggressively) seeks, have already been postulated severally on this thread by myself. There is even a graphic image that shows which texts preceeded each other, but apparently comprehension is a problem.
I will only respond to people who seek to advance their knowledge. Simple.
Tomorrow the thread continues for those who desire to advance their knowledge of the origins of the anonymous gospels,Paul's letters and their influence on Christianity.

sonmvayina:
All the so called authentic Paulina where written before any of the gospels..... according to scholars. The first book of the new testament to be written is 1st Thessalonia....

The gospel came much later.

Thank you for this. You are very knowledgeable in these matters.

SIRTee15:
DID THE GOSPEL PREDATE PAUL'S LETTERS OR PAUL'S LETTERS PREDATE THE GOSPEL?

WAS THERE ANY GOSPEL EXISTENCE PRIOR TO PAUL'S LETTERS?

IF U ARE CONFIDENT ENOUGH OF YOUR SO CALLED KNOWLEDGE...ANSWER THE QUESTION

Guy,
This is the problem with you guys. You don't read. You don't comprehend. Typing with caps locked is not knowledge. It is like shouting during a discourse,trying to brow beat others into your point of view. Everything I have written on this thread are verifiable if you do a little research!
The answers you seek are all over this thread. The answer you seek is in the post you quoted.
I will be forced to ignore you because it is obvious you are trying to derail this thread.

Facts:

1. The undisputed letters of Paul were written around AD48-AD62.
2. The disputed letters of Paul were written around AD50-AD67.
3. The gospel of Mark was written around AD65-AD70.
4. The gospel of Matthew was written around AD70-AD85.
5. The gospel of Luke was written around AD80-AD90.
6. The gospel of John was written around AD90-AD100

Bear in mind that these four gospels were originally written in Greek and NOT Aramaic. These gospels were also anonymous. There were no names affixed to these books originally. This means that throughout the first century there were NO names on these gospels!


Fact:

Names were attached to these four anonymous texts by the early church leaders and elders to confer an authentication of the content in these anonymous texts.

So who were the persons who attached these four names to these gospels?

1.Papias(~120CE)
2. Irenaeus(~180CE)
These were the church leaders who attached the names to these four anonymous gospels in order to give them credibility and apostolic authority.

The people whose names appear on those gospels are not the people who wrote those books. So if the early leaders of the church could do this what else could they not do?
These are questions you should ask yourself!

I will go on to prove that each of the gospel writers who were anonymous took their bearing from Paul's cosmic Jesus and embellished it with oral traditions while copying each other to create the four church fathers/ elders approved gospels.
Here are how the four gospels record Jesus last words on the cross. Gross contradictions.

The contradictions in the four gospels stories show that these stories were written to support already formed agendas.
Below is the glaring differences between the four gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke and John on the resurrection story.

Jesus Christ wrote no single letters or books about his ministry in Aramaic or Hebrew which were his native language. The gospel writers Matthew,Mark,Luke and John were NEVER followers of Jesus during his ministry. They were not witnesses to his ministry. In fact from AD 65-AD99 these so called gospels were ANONYMOUS.
There was no names attached to these four gospels!

I want to shock those of you that don't know that there were in fact more than 100 gospels of the ministry of Jesus floating around after his death.
The truthful fact is that the fathers and elders of the early church decided the four(4) gospels to be included into the Bible. Other gospel stories were branded as heresy and blasphemous and all discovered copies were burned,banned and destroyed.
It was the elders/father's of the early church that decided to attach the names Matthew,Mark,Luke and John to these ANONYMOUSLY written gospels and this happened over 100 years after the death of Jesus. Attachment of the names of perceived apostles or followers of Jesus gave these anonymous gospels written by unknown people gave them religious legitimacy. Simple.
As stated earlier Jesus never wrote anything about his ministry before he died. The earliest doctrines of Jesus are found in the missives of Paul/Saul which Paul/Saul claimed he received from the epiphany he recieved from the cosmic Jesus on the road to Damascus.
It was this epiphany he eulogised in his letters to various tribes that the writers of the so called gospels seized upon added oral traditions, added various embellishments of their own and used to write the gospels which are currently in the Christian Bible.
Please do your independent research and if I am wrong expose me on this thread.

@Seun,
Good day. I am writing directly and hope this gets to you. There is a need for you to look closely into the running of this forum. Why are people being banned and write ups that took brain work suddenly disappearing?
If an Atheist or Agnostic person can not counter or respond to lies by Christians then the onus is on you to create a Philosophy/free thinkers section where we can post without restriction. So many Atheists/Agnostics have stopped posting because of this . The Christians are as intolerant as the Muslims were when the Religion thread was ONE single section.
I want you to look into this deeply. The Atheists/Agnostic are bold and truthful but it is obvious that the Christians are afraid and scared of the truth. Please look into this.
We need a Philosophy/ Free thinkers section where we can post with freedom without looking over our shoulders in fear of offending fragile sensibilities.

MaxInDHouse:
YES!
According to God's word that Jews believe before Jesus' coming it was WRITTEN in the hearts of his followers:

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.” Jeremiah 31:33

So he actually WROTE the laws he wants to establish in their hearts!

This is getting exasperating. Can you refer anyone to empirical evidence of any physical written words by Jesus of his ministry while on Earth in Aramaic or Hebrew?
Stop sending me on a wild goose chase of word purportedly written by Jeremiah and scribing them into Jesus mouth!
If you want to play games with words I will simply ignore you like that Truth chap and proceed with my thread.

MaxInDHouse:
Jesus spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic fluently he told his disciples that God's Holy Spirit will bring back to their memories everything he taught them so there's no need for him to pen down anything since it's his thoughts, word and actions they need to help in teaching others!

You need to answer the question. Did Jesus write down a single word about his ministry or Christianity in Aramaic?

MaxInDHouse:
They were written in Greek according to the information we received!

Good. What was the language spoken by Jesus in the 30 years of his life and did he leave any written word in his language?

MaxInDHouse:
Ask Jehovah's Witnesses any question in your mind they are sent to you by the Author Himself!

Were the gospels written in Hebrew Aramaic or in Greek?
That is the question for your author.

TheMadame:
I once asked questions on why Paul never once mentions the virgin birth and Jesus parentage but recieved no answers. Rather I was insulted by people on this forum for the question. I did not even know Paul's letters preceeded the gospels of John,Mathew,John and Luke.
Hmmnm.



https://www.nairaland.com/5955499/paul-loud-silence-virgin-birth

Briefly read your thread and found it hilarious .😃
The insults passed on you were just Christians burying their heads in the sand as usual. When Christians see questions for which they lack answers they usually become afraid and cover their ignorance with throwing insults. Pay them no mind.😂

Steep:
why should Paul write what has already being written?
Paul letters agreed with the gospels that Jesus was a real person who died and rose again from the dead. There is an internal agreement with scriptures that separates it from falsehoods. The new testament is centered on Jesus sinless life, death and resurrection, that has always being the church tradition from inception.

I showed you when Paul's letters were written vis when the gospels were written. Paul's wrote his missives in AD 48-AD67.
The first gospel which is Mark was written in AD65-AD70.
Guy,once again I admonish you to unlearn the dogma. Educate yourself. Do research on the origin of your religion.

Steep:
See ignorance in full display, The origin of Christianity is clear and unambiguous, it's origin is form Jesus himself and his apostles. First you guys claim he didn't exist, when you found out your lie couldn't hold you switch to attacking the historicity of the scripture.
Do a proper study of the historicity of Jesus and you will find out the Bible is more reliable than any historical books.

Guy, even the four gospels don't agree on the historical Jesus and the story of his ministry. The gospels are contradictions of themselves!The gospel writers copied themselves after embellishing Paul's letters and concept of Jesus plus oral traditions.
Educate yourself and do some research.
Best regards.

sonmvayina:
They used several sources like the writings of Josephus and ancient tales about Marduk....

I don't think Paul was a real person too. The works attributed to Paul are all works of Apolinius of tyna. It was edited probably by John chysostom.

Interesting. So where does all this leave Christianity because I have seen scholars claiming that Jesus himself never existed. You may like to express your views on this thread please.

I have written here that Paul's letter were written several years before the gospels which were written by nameless persons. It was the early fathers, elders and leaders of the early church that in their infinite wisdom that choose to affix these names to these books. It was by this same wisdom they decided which of the uncountable gospel stories floating around at this period in time made the cut and were included in the Bible.



It is of importance to note that Paul's missives that preceeded these nameless gospels (and I say this because Paul's name is attached to his letters.). Paul NEVER mentions very important points which are reflected in the gospels.
Paul never mentions :

1. The virgin birth ( mentioned in Mathew 1-2/ Luke1-2)

2.Paul never mentions the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist. (Mentioned in Mark.1,Luke3,and John1)

3.Paul never mentions Jesus being tempted by Satan in the wilderness(mentioned in Mathew 4:1-11,and Luke 4:1-13)

4. Paul does not mention the Sermon on the mountain and rarely mentions Jesus' parable and teachings.( mentioned in Mathew 5.

5.Paul never mentions the feeding of 5,000 people, nor Jesus walking on water,nor the raising of dead persons.

6. Paul never mentions any triumphant entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.( mentioned in Mathew 21,Mark 11,Luke 19,and John 19.)

7. Paul never mentions Jesus trial before Pilate.

8. Paul does not mention the empty tomb or the women at the tomb( mentioned in Mark 16:1-8. Mathew 28:1-10,Luke24:1-12,and John 20:1-18)

So where do all these stories included in the gospels and regarded as cornerstones of Christianity come from??

Paul formerly known as Saul at around AD33-AD36 had an epiphany on the road to Damascus.
Acts 9:35

At this point in his life Paul realised
1. Jesus is his Lord.
2.Jesus is alive
3. Persecution of believers is persecution of Jesus who is his Lord.

4. Jesus is the son of God risen in power. He is not just a messiah,he is also a son of God made more powerful by resurrection.

5. Jesus is a crucified saviour.
1st Corinthians 1:23-25.
Romans 3:24-26.
Galatians 2:20

6. Jesus is a cosmic creator.
1st Corinthians 8:6
1st Colossians 1:15-17


7. Jesus is the new Adam.
Romans 5:18-19.
1st Corinthians 15:45

8. Jesus is the mediator and intercessor.
2nd Corinthians 5:19


Paul's view of Jesus which were later copied and embellished by the nameless writers of the gospels were the following facts;
1. Jesus is the risen son of God.
2. Jesus is divine Lord.
3.Jesus is a crucified saviour.
4. Jesus is a cosmic creator.
5.Jesus is the new Adam.
6.Jesus is a heavenly intercessor.
7. Jesus lives within every believer.

Be informed that the way the books of the New Testament appear in the Bible is not in any chronological order. In fact it is better in my opinion to read Paul's letters first and to understand his concept of Jesus before proceeding to read the gospels of Mathew,Mark, Luke and John because the undisputed letters of Paul were written several years before the gospels.

Timeline summary of Paul's letters vi's a viz the gospels.

1. AD48- AD 62; The undisputed Pauline letters(Galatians,Romans,Corinthians)

2. AD50-AD67: The disputed Pauline letters(Ephesians, Timothy)

3. AD 65-AD70- Gospel of Mark.

4. AD70-AD85-Gospel of Mathew.

5. AD80-90-Gospel of Luke.

6. AD90-100-Gospel of John.

Timeline Summary above shows which books were written first.
Jesus Christ himself wrote no books of his ministry. Paul wrote letters to the early church members. It was based on Paul's writing that the gospels were written by later writers and embellished.
Readers are free to do research on these issues raised in this thread.


To be continued.

First of all,none of the names on the four gospels in the Bible are the names of the writers of those books!
Mathew,Mark,Luke and John are not the names of the writers of those books. These names are pseudonyms of the unknown writers of those books.
None of these nameless writers were witnesses to the gospel stories they wrote about nor were they followers of Jesus.
Jesus himself did not write a single word in any shape or form about his work.
The writers of these gospels simply relied on oral traditions, myths, and the letters of Paul formerly known as Saul to create the content in their stories.

A saddening fact about Christians is a blatant refusal to search the origin of their religion. It is as if Christians have a morbid fear that researching the origins of stories they have held dear to heart will shake the foundations of all their beliefs.

On this thread we are going to attempt to research the origins of Christianity. If you are offended and not interested in knowledge you are free to stop reading at this point. If you are not offended and wish to gain a little knowledge then you are free to follow me down the rabbit hole.

Whatever is written in this thread can be freely cross checked and researched independently.