₦airaland Forum

Zikkyy: Please answer debosky's question, now that you are of the opinion that the commandments are plenty tells us God's commandment(s) that we are required to keep

Bidam: Hope so too the guy wayo don too much

Which wayo? Abeg leaf mi make I sleep joor, when I wake up, I will answer ya kweshion.

Bidam: BIG LIE.It is those of the flesh who are not subject to God's law (Romans 8:5-.
If you say you know Him, and ignore His commandments you are a liar (1 John 2:3-7).
It does not matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, what matters is keeping God's commandments. (1 Cor. 7:19)
The "law of love" is that we keep his commandments - which is by no means a "burden" (1 John 5:3; 2 John 1:6; Matt. 11:29,30)

Bidam, seriously you need to re-take bible study class. The reference to "His" there is Christ, not Moses. So, what's Christ's commandment? A NEW commandment I GIVE UNTO YOU...that already replaced and\or fulfilled the TEN COMMANDMENTS....for love is the fulfillment of the mosaic law.

Okay, following!

haibe: lol I only asked a question na.

Abeg go study your bible joor. No be every answer I go provide for you. Both Old & New Testament says the law of Moses was given to the Jews ONLY, not to Christians inclusive.

christemmbassey: bro tha scripture is very simple, u dont need Greek or anything to undastand it. Whats ur point?

The point I was making to Ihedinobi is, that 'burden' includes everything negative and positive, including troubles. Like someone slap you from behind, trying to look for your trouble....just bear it or take it with love for Christ's sake - that's love or turn the other side make the person slap the other side. After the person slap the other side, just tell the person, bless you; have you received Christ as your Lord and Saviour?

Ihedinobi: So the Jewish law, that is, the law of the Jews is the same as the law of Moses, right?

What do the Scriptures say is the relationship between the Jews, their law and Christ?

My brother, I have told you many times. The Jewish laws or the law of Moses is not the same as the law of Christ. Does the law of Christ asked you to stone people to death? Or does it tell you to stone rebellious children to death? I hope you show us that law if it exist in the law of Christ because I don't understand the relationship you are seeking for? What relationship exist between law of Moses and Grace?

Ihedinobi: You're saying that God changes His standards from dispensation to dispensation? That God is subject to change?

Yes, God changes His mode of operation. He is the same God of the OT and of the NT. How come the same God said, I want a New Covenant and not just leave it at the Old? Until you understand that the shadow is gone because the substance has come, you will confusing both for the other. God Himself does not change but his ways changes - from Old Covenant to New; From law to Grace; from curse to blessing etc.

Ihedinobi: I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to do here, Goshen. Bearing one another's burdens is helping one another, sharing in one another's difficulties and challenges and lightening each other's load. What does "eye for an eye" have to do with that?

Ihedinobi: I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to do here, Goshen. Bearing one another's burdens is helping one another, sharing in one another's difficulties and challenges and lightening each other's load. What does "eye for an eye" have to do with that?

Why read the scriptures and say it must mean this or that? It can mean beyond what we think it means. Look at it this way, maybe you will understand.....Greek wan start be that o

The word 'burden' is from the Greek word, baros and it means: heaviness, weight, burden, trouble from here, http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G922&t=KJV

As usual, take those meanings and key back into the context. You have all what the writer intents, not just limited to what you think the writer intended.

Therefore, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ" = "Bear ye one another's heaviness, weight, burden, trouble, and so fulfil the law of Christ".

If somebody have trouble or brings trouble to you, positive or negative, you must bear it as a Christian. At least you know trouble can be positive or negative.

Bidam: You yourself have already said Mathew, mark,luke and John are OT scriptures, so i don't see what point you are trying to make here.

Bidam, I don't know when or how long I'm gonna be with you in all these matters. Don't you understand still that the law of Moses was still in effect when Christ was born? If it was done away with, then what law did Christ said he came to fulfill? Matthew to John are OT. Christ was born into the Old and the second purpose is, to establish the teachings that will carry on into the New, not according to the OT, that is, after he had done fulfilling the Old by the Cross. Do you still need me to teach or tell you these little things?

Ihedinobi: Try and pay attention, Goshen. I'm hard-pressed to see the connection between the above and the question I asked.

Well, all your questions are further generating another question and you're just going in circles. When I ask you a question, you dodge it and when you ask me, I answer you. I will soon be off from computer for today in few minutes. The one I do today don do. TBC!

Bidam: you are not getting my point. When Paul told Timothy "that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures"

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did it include the NT?

Bidam: ayam not disputing that..you are the ones belittling the OT MY QUESTION IS: Did Paul and the other disciples preach JESUS using the New Testament?

Abeg comot for road joor . When they were writing the NT, didn't the Holy Ghost tell you it was a progressive revelation? Or did they repeat the OT? The NT was written by the revelation of Christ to the Apostles.....make sure to pen that down. That's the purpose of choosing the twelves, to teach them what He, Christ wanted for His church.

Image123: what is the meaning of "yeyenatu"? You already quoted the answer you need. I know the race set before me, if you have anything important to say, kindly go ahead.

Yeyenatu is a Yoruba terms for meaning....You're not serious! Abi you don become actor wey no understand Yoruba again ni?

haibe: where did the bible say the law of moses was meant for jews only?

You don come again? You and me don debate this issue before. You still want me give you undated version?

Bidam: 2 Timothy 3:17 - And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

1. This is the same thing we've been saying, faith in Christ is = Salvation and that's what will remain, not saved by faith in Christ and then ADDING the law of Moses to continue in the salvation. The law of Moses had no role in salvation and will not have any role in continuing the walk.

2. This is what people keep telling you again and again. There're are things written in the law of Moses that you don't do today which is part of the "All Scriptures...". Yes, all scriptures is given but not all applies to you. This is a simple truth. If your child is rebellious, will you kill or stone that child to death because it is written in scriptures and\or that all scriptures apply to you?

Ihedinobi: What does "eye for an eye...etc etc" have to do with bearing one another's burdens?

See as I dey laugh you in tongues. Honestly I don't expect this kind of question from you. Oh, so you still think 'burden' is just like what we call somebody's wahala this days right? That word burden also mean trouble. So, if some give you trouble, bear it. How can you do that except for LOVE....that is by obeying the law of Christ? It is the same word the Apostles already said the Mosaic laws was and never wanted to add more or burden the Gentile Christians with it.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
28 It has pleased the Holy Spirit that you should not have a heavy ·load [burden] to carry, and we agree. You need to do only these things: 29 Stay away from any food that has been ·offered [sacrificed] to idols, eating any animals that have been strangled, and blood, and any kind of sexual sin [see v. 20]. If you stay away from these things, you will do well. ·Good-bye [Best wishes; May you fare well]. 30 So they ·left Jerusalem [were sent off/dismissed] and went to Antioch where they gathered the ·church [congregation; assembly] and ·gave them [delivered] the letter. Acts 15

Ihedinobi: Does faith stand alone? Does faith in Christ have no objective per the Scriptures?

So you derive faith from obeying the law of Moses because it is written in scriptures? Then your faith is truly in shadows because Christ is the substance of the law. Your faith then must be in Christ, not the shadows.

Goshen360: 3. New Living Translation (©2007)
When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law, I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ. 1 Corinthians 9:21

^

Ihedinobi: I see three laws here: the Jewish law, the law of God and the law of Christ. Which of the first two is the law of Moses and how come there's a third when you said there are only two?

I told you earlier the two laws - of Moses and of Christ were used by another name interchangeably. The Jewish law in that context is still the law of Moses. It was called the Jewish law because it was given to the Jews, not to Christians or Gentiles. If I have $100 and I give it to, does it still belong to me after giving it to you? Off course, it shall be called yours. Have you found such phrase in scriptures called "Christianish law"? Off course not, because Christians are under Christ's law - LOVE! That's the bedrock of our Christianity.

The law of God is the law by which God operates a given time and dispensation. That's why I said and teach, we are not under law doesn't mean we are lawless. NO! It means we are still subject to the law of God in operation at a given time. In this time, age and dispensation; the law of God is the law of Christ and that's what Christians are under or subject to, not of Moses. At some times in scriptures when the law of Moses was in effect, scripture calls the law of Moses the law of God, that's what they had at that time.

Goshen360: 2. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2

^

Ihedinobi: What does the law of Moses say regarding this?

What does the law of Moses says regarding bearing one another's burden?

New International Version (©2011)
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Leviticus 24:20

New International Version (©2011)
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:21

Now, this is what Christ established under the law to end that dispensation and what is to be carried into the New Testament.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. Matthew 5:38-39.

Now, I know what you gonna say, okay but I will help you out. I know you gonna say, Christ was showing the true meaning or intent of the law of Moses. How do you explain what is truly intended in "eye for an eye or the one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury" compared to BUT I say, "If you're slapped on one cheek, turn the other ALSO" which was not included in the law of Moses? How do you explain that?

Ihedinobi: Ok. So Moses requires total obedience to the law for salvation and Christ requires only faith, right? What is the product of faith, pray tell?

How do you mean 'product of faith'?

Bidam: which is law of moses again? are Moses teachings not pointing to Christ?

If Moses's teaching was pointing to Christ and that's true, why then do you still hold that Moses teachings or law to heart when the one those teachings was pointing had already come? Does that make Holy Ghost sense to you?

Bidam: Nope sorry the word reading doesn't suggest that. In READING Paul's letters do you

1. Know about (Paul's) Pharasaical understanding of Scripture.
2. Know of the Hebrew methods of interpretation and teaching that Paul used and which existed since before Paul's time.
3. Know of the deeper mystical aspects of Paul's Hebrew theology.
4. Know that the Hebrew concepts Paul tries to convey are not carried over well into the Greek language. (i.e., to convey the idea of "legalistic following of the commandments away from faith," the phrase erga nomos, meaning "works of the Law," had to be "created" as such concept did not exist in the Greek language at that time).
5.Come to Paul's letters with a bias instilled in you by your own theology. (i.e.,you are already taught the idea that Paul taught "we're not under the Law" before you even begin "studying" his teachings.)
A Yes or No reply will suffice.Thanks.

Bros, you know I know all of the things you mentioned up there. If I start my Greek\Hebrews now, una go dey go calling me names again. And besides, it's not every time we go writing on historic background; theology and all those stuff. There's no point for yes or no please. Paul cannot contradict himself except you don't understand one text in the place of the other. Paul never said we are not under the law, but definitely NOT MOSAIC LAW! He, Paul, tore it down completely! We're under the law of Christ, abeg go back to basic bible study joor!

anukulapo: @Pastorkun,Christembassy,Goshen

I believe it is the desire of Our lord Jesus christ that we should know truth;wholly about the gospel of grace because in it is the fullness of life abundance that He promised.

I think Joseph Prince threads the path (I still listened to him this morning). There are some other ministers too--even in Nigeria here so their ministration (teachings and beliefs) is worth talking about.

Yes, Joseph Prince is a Grace teacher. Creflo Dollar just embraced the Gospel of Grace and he is a new friend to Joseph Prince. Les Feldick is also a Grace teachers. As in Nigeria, the people I can point to, based on my knowledge is Pastor Chris Oyakhilome and Tunde Bakare. I may not know of others who are also Grace gospel teachers but Joseph Prince is into it with full force. But, they all still mix it with the law in the aspect of tithe. I do not discredit them on the tithe premise anyway because I understand we cannot all agree and be perfect in doctrines. They teach tithe before the law with the case of Abraham but we all know that negates the Grace giving under the dispensation of Grace.

christemmbassey: Pls i want to undastand those that are rooting for the law of Moses, what are ur arguments brothers?

They believe or are saying only faith or believing in Christ and his finished works is just too simply. They argue that, obeying the law of Moses and its commandments are also required in addition to faith in Christ. That's all I see except they wanna answer for themselves.

Ihedinobi: So which is the law of Moses and which the law of Christ?

Ihedinobi, why are you pretending as if you don't know what that scripture is saying? (Just my assumption anyway). The way of the law of Moses says, "It is through obeying the law that a person has life." Galatians 3:12; Leviticus 18:5. That's the way of the law of Moses - To get life, you must obey the law given at that time.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For Moses writes that the law's way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands. Romans 10:5

To be right and justified with God, you must obey ALL the Mosaic law. It's called righteousness [s]by the law of Moses or according to the law of Moses, in KJV language[/b] which was temporary until the way of faith should come. Now, that the way of faith had come, no more is the way of the law of Moses needed.

Now, in this dispensation of Grace, what is the way of faith to life or having life; is it still by obedience to the whole law of Moses or what? Following me into the word,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In him (Christ) was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Colossians 3:4

New International Version (©2011)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

The way of faith says, it is faith in Christ that gives life because the law was given until Christ should come and the law was a shadow, pointing to Christ. Now, that Christ had come, it is faith in Christ, the finished works on the cross and His resurrection that brings\gives life. Christ replaced the law in which the people then found life because Christ had not come yet then. These are two different ways - 1, Do ALL the things written in the law of Moses and you shall have life is righteousness ACCORDING TO THE LAW AND THE RELIGIOUS OF JUDAISM; 2, Have faith or believe in Christ in whom is life, and you shall have life of the Son of God, nothing added and no more requirements of or obedience to the mosaic law. Obey the law and have life was okay for that dispensation but when Christ came, a man is not justify by obeying the laws of Moses but by faith in Christ. Romans 3:28; So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law. New Living Translation

Galatians 2:16 explicitly says what faith we have towards - it is faith in Christ and in Christ is life, John 1:4 without adding the obedience to the law of Moses.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law."

Can you see the two different ways? Can you see how the way of faith\believing (in Christ, gives life) is different from the way of the law (of Moses, gets life by obeying ALL the commandments)?

I will continue to answer the rest of your question showing how what the law says and what faith requires on other questions you asked. This response is long and I don't wanna put all together is it won't be too long an epistle to read.

Ihedinobi, wait for me o....unfortunately, I don't have enough time to talk to you on phone as promised but lemme deal with this topic here first before we talk on phone. No mind me, we are cool and we'll remain brothers till Christ comes.

Bidam: We are to search and study, rightly dividing the Word (according to Torah) with God's Spirit. We are not to casually read and wait for some "personal enlightenment." This is how false teachings come about, how cults are formed and how people fall into grave sin without realizing it.

Sharrap there! When I said I read, doesn't that suggest to you that I have STUDIED it before? You think I'm just reading Galatians for the first time? Smh on you! Anyway, I'm here for you and Ihedinobi today.

Image123: Fortunately for us, the verse you quoted connote and even denote that it refers to EVERY MAN, THE WHOLE WORLD, THE ENTIRE WORLD. But some wuruwuru from you picks just the jews. How?

Yeyenatu! Quote where the law of Moses was written or given to the Non-Jews by birth, the Gentiles Christians and I will quote where scriptures says the law of Moses was written and meant ONLY for the Jews. Are you ready to run this race set before you?

Zikkyy: leave Enigma out of it, i think the man just want you to exercise some caution. That's all

I understand him though, thanked him and have apologized. Sometimes, I play too much you know and get carried away.

Ihedinobi: @bolded: the obvious question is where the Scriptures say so.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; C an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [ faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24].

Galatians 3:24-25.

Ihedinobi: But I'm not as interested in that as I am in the sense in what you said here. What is the right and wrong that the Spirit convicts us of? How do we know that we have been convicted of a wrong or encouraged in a right?

Ihedinobi,

You're still allowing the Mosaic law which wasn't written to you as a Christian to tell or guide or lead you as to what is right or wrong. That's Judaism, a religion according of the law of Moses. When Christ, Grace and the Spirit came, you are now set free from the law of Moses to serve in the newness of spirit. It used to be the law that tells people what is right or wrong but now, it is the Spirit of God that tells Christians what is right or wrong through the knowledge of the word of God.

New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the same way, brothers and sisters, you have died to the laws in Moses' Teachings through Christ's body. You belong to someone else, the one who was brought back to life. As a result, we can do what God wants.

Expanded Bible (EXB)
In the same way, my brothers and sisters, ·your old selves died, and you became free from the law [ you died to the law] through the body of Christ. This happened so that you might belong to someone else—the One who was raised from the dead—and so that we might ·be used in service to [ bear fruit for] God.

Romans 7:4

You remember this scripture we were sharing from the other thread right? I'm sure you do. Now, it's like this; when you as a Nigerian leave the country and migrate to another country and becomes the citizen of the new country. This new country is where you live, earn your income, make a good living and meet all your needs. Should anything happen say for instance, war. Who are you gonna bear allegiance to?

This is the same way Paul described the WAR between the Spirit and the flesh (the law). Now when you died or crucified with Christ, you died to sin, its appetite and also died to the law (of Moses), Romans 7:4 because through the law is the knowledge or consciousness of sin, Romans 3:20 & 7:7 and you're left with the Spirit to guide or lead you. This the the war going on between most Christians and they don't know how to win this war. Simply submit or yield to the leading of the Spirit, you're already dead to the law and its consciousness to tell you what is right and wrong. Put in a better way, the Spirit in this dispensation had replaced the law of Moses to tell Christians how to live right or wrong.

ayoku777: @ zikkyy

thanks for the scripture you brought up, this truth is so simple, im amazed it has brought up such a long debate. If works had no say in our receiving the spirit, then it cant have a say in our keeping him. The law cant revoke what it didnt provoke, and the law didnt provoke our receiving salvation, righteousness and the holy spirit.

Honestly, I had to read Galatians again and again and it was full of revelation. Saved by Grace and continue to keep the salvation by the law of Moses is strictly no Christianity! What law did they (Galatians) obey to be saved? That was Paul's question to them. If none, how then do they begin in the Spirit (saved by Grace through faith) and going back and want to make perfection by keeping the mosaic law?