₦airaland Forum

Dhugal:
Wrong.
The Holy Roman Empire was a Germanic empire.
From Charlemagne to the Hohenstaufens,down to the Habsburgs.
Don't try to rewrite European history here,mister.

And again, the Slavic were always more populous than the Germanics, even till today.
Population wasn't the reason Slavs lost Berlin to Germanics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

Dude is just vomiting crap anyhow.

RedboneSmith:
Ominijie was not a collection of communities in the sense that Olumbanasaa is. That we know. It was just ONE community. In fact, it wasn't even as big as the present Agbor Town. It was the nucleus settlement that grew and grew to become the present Agbor.

According to Bini traditions, the name of Agbor was Igidi at the time they invaded, not Ominijie. The Ominijie era had already ended before Bini became a force to reckon with, so you can forget trying to pin the Ominijie name on Bini imperialists.

That's the problem.
Every story about Ominijie/Igidi are through Bini tinted glass.
Bini invaded where we know as Agbor today, established the kingdom and influenced all the oral history of the place we have today.

If an Igbo is to tell the story of Equatorial guinea today, he will call it "Panya", it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the people called themselves.
My point is that we can't use a bini tainted and corrupted oral history to unravel the truth about agbor. I'd rather look at the language.
And until you provide history of Igbo mass migration to Agbor, so much to change the demographics of the area in history, language, in this case remain the best logical tool to analyze Agbor.
The German infiltration of Berlin is well known in Oral history.
There is no history of Igbo infiltration of Agbor. Binis kept oral history, yet such a defining factor in history of Agbor was not recorded by them.

You need to repent from your mischievous ways.

RedboneSmith:
Easy answer. We have already been through this. Population movement.

The Germans had no empire before they were unified in the 19th century. How did they Germanize so much of Slavic territory at a time when they were just a bunch of tiny city-states and counties. Answer: They have a large population. They were migrating into less-populated areas. By virtue of their population they could assimilate aboriginal populations. Simple. You rely too much on the 'Empire' hypothesis as the explanation for cultural/linguistic assimilation.

The problem with your German hypothesis is that there are no history of such Igbo migration into Edo speaking Agbor, so much as to change the language demographics of the place if there were, Edo history will capture it.
Rather what we have is history of Edo people invading Ominijie( probably the name Edo people called the people, not necessary what the people called themselves) , conquered the people, United them under a kingdom, probably because they never saw themselves as one, ruled over them for sometime, before the people rebelled.

You are really over reaching with your German hypothesis here.

gerg:
What do you have to say about the Ominigie group also existing in Edo culture during the Ogiso era?

What do you have to say about Olu/oru groups existing throughout Igboland?

If Igbos were imperialists, wouldn't the Olumbanasaa have been invaded since antiquity, United under one Eze, probably one of the princes of Nri, as a single community and then years down the line, we would be wondering how an Igala speaking people have an Igbo name as the name of their town,and an Igbo king title.
And Igbo people will point to the existence of several Olu/oru towns in Igboland to justify why an Igala speaking people today are actually Igbos, and then we will provide a dictionary to show that Oru/Olu means riverine in Igbo language, Olumbanasaa is a riverine coimmunity, therefore must be Igbo.

I hope you see why I don't buy your story. I know better.

RedboneSmith:
Olumbanasaa is a group name, like Mbammili (Riverine people), not the name of one community. All the communities that make up Olumbanasaa don't have Igbo names. They have Igala names. Yoruba is a group name. Not the name of one community. The communities that make up the Yoruba nation don't have Hausa names.

Ominije was the name of just ONE community, not a collective group name, like Olumbanasa and Yoruba. Your analogies are deceptive.

How would you know that Ominijie is the name of one community.
How are you sure that it wasn't a group of communities of Igbo speaking people that were referred as Ominijie, were invaded and then United by Imperialistic Edos under Agbor?
How are you sure that these people didn't have names they called themselves instead of Ominijie, but Ominijie stuck in oral history, since the Binis invaded Ominijie formed Agbor, ruled it and influenced the story of Ominijie passed down in oral history to the unborn generation?

RedboneSmith:
I gave Ominijie's meaning. You decided to overlook it. Anyway, I posted a screenshot from a Bini dictionary in my last comment.

Languages are important when we have early written records. We don't have that. There are no writing from Agbor before the 20th century. No one can speak for sure about the nature of the language spoken there in, say, 10th century.

Place-names however tell a big story. Berlin today is a German city. The place-name however points to a Slavic origin, i.e., Slavs were there before Germans arrived. We would never had known this by just studying the language Berliners speak today, or even the language they spoke 500 years ago.

We know that Igbo empire never existed.
We know that Igbos nevers invaded Agbor, as no such was recorded in Agbor history.
We know that the nearest Igbo( read SE) community Onitsha is Miles away from Agbor.
We know that Agbor is a stone throw away from Bini
We have oral histories of Agbor invasion by Edos
We know that Bini was an imperialistic empire.

Yet!

Today, Agbor speaks an Igboid language

How do you explain this!

gerg:
Nsukka seem to be from Igala from their history and some of those people around Abiriba have Akwa/Cross River origin according to their history. I'm sure you will debate this but I'm not ready for any senseless debate today. We left this thread for dead and now you guys are trying to revive it.

Ominijie is a full Edo word and there is a group in Edo culture called ominijies and they play a very important role Kingdom. Till date, their are many Ominijie bearer people in Ika, Bini and Ishan.

On the contrary, Igala invaded Nsukka and left traces of Igala imprints in Nsukka, like Edo invaded Ika and left traces of Edo in Ika, but because the core had always been Igbo, Igbo language survived in both Ika and Nsukka, with minor Edo corruption and Igala corruption for Ika and Nsukka respectively.
Are there Nsukka people today whose ancestors were of Igala stock that invaded Nsukka? Yes, are there Ika people today whose ancestors were of Edo stock that invaded Ika, yes!
But the Truth remain that both regions were Igbo speaking realms prior to those invasions and that's why Igbo language survived in those places while the language of the Igala and Edo invaders died a natural death, with imprints of them left in form of words littering the Igbo dialects spoken in those parts.

RedboneSmith:
Ogie (Bini) = ojie (Esan). G changes to J.

Ominijie = Ominigie = Without kings/ chiefs/ nobles. (A situation that perfectly defines Ominije/Agbor-Nta before the Dein era.)

I took the pain to snap this from a 1937 Bini dictionary on my laptop.

Were the Yorubas not given the name by Hausas?
Groups had been named by their neighbors in the past.
Igala communities in Anambra has been called Olumbanasaa by Ndiigbo since antiquity and today they( Igalas) there had come to accept that name, and call themselves the same.
Does it change the fact that they are Igala speaking and not Igbo speaking even though they have an Igbo name today?
This changes nothing, except that it tells us that the Igboid people of Ominijie obviously were republican in nature, and were given the name Ominijie by their Bini neighbors, who found their ways strange, and sought to entrench imperialist and monarchical ways on them, and probably succeeded, hence the foundation of Agbor kingdom.

You only cleared that chapter of history and reinforced the Igboid nature of the ancient people of Ominijie the more.

Thanks.

RedboneSmith:
A better story than place-name evidence?

Language of a people, especially non colonized ones tells a better story than the name of a place.

Moreover, you are yet to tell the house the meaning of Ominijie in Edoid language.

Cire80:
Why are you running back and forth when paid in your own coined? You postulated that the first king of Agbor had an Igbo name hence Agbor must be Igbo. Are you trying to counter your earlier submission now that someone is presenting a superior and more accurate fact to your postulation? How does Nigeria having English title come in here?

I posted the list of Kings of Agbor, fromthe Dein era, and showed how the name progressed from a clearly Igbo name Ebonka to Bini borrowed names and back to Igbo names as of today.
You are the confused One here.

Titles can easily be borrowed by a smaller kingdom from a bigger empire. That's the illustration I brought out with the English-Nigeria analogy. And went ahead to accentuate it with Nsukka-Igallas, Igbanke-Bini, Abiriba-Akwa/Cross. These clans all have one thing in common, they border non Igbo speaking powerful neighbors.

Cire80:
I find your postulations very amusing. When did Agbor exist as Igboid realm? During the Ogiso/Ogele /Ominijie era? When was Agbor renamed to Agbor? What was the previous name before it was renamed to Agbon?

Now I repeat again, Ebonka is not an Igbo name. It's an Indigenous Ika name.

Lol! Of course it's an indigenous Agbor name, which happens to be Igbo, because the indigenous first inhabitants of Agbor, were Igbo speaking.

What is the Agbor antiquity name for a king? Eze!
Titles means nothing, they could easily be borrowed from neighbouring groups. Nsukka people have Attahs title from Igala, yet the name for a King is Eze!

Igbanke has Enogie title from Bini, yet the name for King is Eze!

Abiriba has Enanchioken title probably from Akwa/Cross influence, yet the name for a king is Eze!


Ominijie is the name, no one knows the meaning, it has no meaning in any Edoid language.

RedboneSmith:
Ominije, the name of the old nucleus settlement that grew into Agbor is very clearly a Bini/Ishan name, with a clear Edoid meaning.

Ogele, the title of the first ruler(s) of Ominije is clearly an Edoid title.

These facts tell their own stories.

What's the Bini/ Edo meaning of the word "Ominijie" ?

President, the first title of the head of Nigerian state is Clearly an English title, don't you think so?

The word for King in Agbor is Eze, and it has remained so since antiquity till now, that in itself, tells a better story and greater story.

I can see the twisted One Who runs amok in all Igbo related thread in NL like a fly to a corpse , spreading his rancid Igbophobia is already here, as usual cheering the anti Igbo elements.
Lol! Was wondering how long before he arrived. So predictable, this Afonja is.

Cire80:
You're not making any point. Ebonka is an indigenous Ika name. I don't know where you got it that Ebonka was the first king of Agbor. Agbor is a very ancient Kingdom. Existing alongside Bini. It's the oldest of all the Kingdoms East of Bini Kingdom. The main founder of Agbor was Agbon, an Edo name and the first dynasties of Agbor Ogele/Igiso dynasties existed in a place called Ominijie, another Edo word. Ebonka was the first king of the 3rd dynasty which is the Dein dynasty after the royal quarters was relocated from Agbor Nta to the present location of Imenobi. I don't understand what point you're trying to make.

Agbor already existed as an Igboid realm before the imperialistic invasion of the land by Edos who renamed the place Agbon.

Good a thing you are now making peace with the fact that Ebonka is an Igbo name as it has no meaning in any Edoid language.

This position of Egwu is strongly supported by one tradition of Agbor as narrated by Iduwe. According to Iduwe “Our ancestors had long established an autonomous kingdom based on Eze title before our contact with Benin”.

This we already know.
Agbor or Omnijie always had indigenous Igboid people, and centuries after Bini imperialistic influence on the people and land,Agbor remain strongly Igboid till today.
No Edo man can understand Agbor language. Any Igbo man well versed in Owerri dialect will understand Agbor language easily at first hearing yet Edo is a stone throw away from Agbor and Owerri miles away across the great river..

The Legendary Benin Historian, Joseph Egharevba dismissively presented Agbor as a Benin vassal whose Chief (Obi/Dein) was in constant rebellion against the Benin Kingdom to the extent that the Kingdom had to take steps to bring the situation under control. Egherevba gave account of how Oba Orhogbua authorized one of his generals, Agbon to restore peace at all cost. Agbon then captured Idigi territory which he renamed Agbon later corrupted to “Agbor”. The people of Agbor as a result of this development were compelled to maintain the hard sought loyalty to Benin but this was only short-lived as they again revolted this time during the reign of Oba Ovoramwen. As we were again told, Agbor was to be severely punished but for the 1897 conquest of Benin by the British forces and consequent capture of Oba Ovoramwen.

Agbor people already existed as indigenous Igboid non Edoid people before the invasion of Edo people and renaming of the town.

basilo102:
Lol, chicken hearted nigerians cant orgainze a sucessful protest. They are now looking for excuses for their flopped protest. Show me any evidence that IPOB went violent during their protest. Its their resolve that intimidate nigerians and they resort to killing in frustrations, unlike this protest which the organizers chickened out and the government highjacked it. Tuface gave up after few minutes with DSS but kanu has been there for years and still resolute

WORD!

AustineE1:
To some of you,hating and insulting Igbos should be a normal thing,igbos should always be apologetic and shouldnt respond in like manners! If the clown had just faced the topic without derogatory statement,no one would have come for him.

Well said. The slimy one didn't call out his Afonja people that started the thread bashing Ndiigbo, but is quick to pick out your well weighed rebuttal.

Cire80:
alright. Just that? You're funny. That's the greeting I was asking about. So ignored every other which are obviously Edoid and pick out this? What difference does it make if everything you post always point towards Edo and just one or two things either sound Igboid or Igbo. Even your post about the past Agbor kings betrayed your point because among all the names there, you can only find one or two Igbo names and the rest are Edoid and Ika.

The list started with an Igbo name, Ebonka, and then the period of Bini imperialism started, and the names became Bini, but now with Bini vanquished, the names are now Igbo.

If I Post the list of past kings of Ugbodu, you will notice the same pattern.Firstly Yoruba named kings, interrupted by many Edo named kings, and now Igbo named Kings.

Once Bini power and influence waned, everything in Anioma returned/ is returning to its default Igbo settings.
This is the natural way of things.

Yes we have similar language.. Our bia (come is your come) but our LA (GO is different from yours) our money..ewhyia is different . U call money ego...

This is crazy and ignorance driven.
Go is said different ways in different parts of Igboland.
In parts of Anambra it's "Puo", in parts of Imo and Abia, it's "Fuo/Ghuo/Puo, in Ezza( Ebonyi) it is " Lufulu", in Ehugbo( still Ebonyi) it's "Sohu".
You know nothing about SE, yet you speak like you do.

Like someone pointed out, Money is not called "Ego" in all parts of SE, some say "Okpoho"/ "Okpo".

Cire80:
Igbo sounding in spelling of course but you guys don't care if it's the same pronunciations or meaning when any Igbo sounding word is found in Anioma?

What exactly are you on about?

Cire80:
I didn't see this. What's so special about this? The greetings? Or the Ogele? There are many royal greetings and praise names for Ika kings and that's one of them. I remember when I was little during the Owowor, Ibiewere and Igue festivals, all the songs are music during this festival is for the king. The most popular greetings for Agbor kings is Do Dein; Ni tor nein fe. Is Ogele Igbo ? Please tell me.

You didn't see the "Oken Eze"?

TheSonOfMark:
"OKPOGHO/OKPOHO/AKPOHO" actually means in the Akwaibom languages. Still we don't tag the Abiribas 'Ibibiod ' like the Igbos would do in similar instances.

You can't drag Abriba because they speak a dialect of Igbo language with few loan words from Akwa Cross area.
It's same reason Ndiigbo don't drag Eleme and Andoni people people, even though they( Eleme) had incorporated many Igbo loan words from Ndoki into their language, their language still remains totally unintelligible to Ndiigbo,but intelligible to Ogonis in Khana and Gokana, like wise the Andonis whose language though containing many Igbo loan words, is clearly not Igbo.

Stop meddling into issues you know nothing about.

Cire80:
there are many places with Igbo sounding names scattered all over the North. You seem to be very ignorant.

Igbo sounding in spelling, sure. But Igbo sounding in pronunciation, unlikely.Except those in immediate Igbo vincinity of Kogi and Benue states and the reason for this is obvious.

Igboid:

“Agbor Nta formerly called Ominije is the cradle of civilization. Ogelle or Ogene lived as the great priest. He became Oriowor and was greeted “Oriowor or Oken Eze” meaning “Oriowor, the Great King” (Anioma Essence, 2007).

By the way, why have you been tactically avoiding this part of my submission.

Cire80:
Ebo is not an Igbo word. Nnewi borrowed lots of words from Anioma. Ebo is not in Igbo culture. In Edo and Ika culture, Ogbe, Idunwun /Idumu and Evbo/Ebon are used as a form of stratification or structuralization in our Kingdoms and clans. In Ika as well as in Bini/Ishan, Ogbe is the quarter, each Ogbe is subdivided into Idunwun/Idumu and this is further divided into Evbo/Ebons. All these divisions and subdivisions hold their meetings in a place called Egua/Ogua. We have Ogua Ogbe, Ogua Idumu and Ogua Ebon. For anybody to say Ebon has nothing to do with Evbo is the height of prejudice.

You are making jest of yourself.
Ebo is used all over Igboland, it is not restricted to Nnewi.

Are you saying that there is no Edo word for "greater", that Igbo word for greater ie "Ka", will now be used with "Evbo"?
Lol! You are ridiculous.

Ogbe is an Igbo word too, it's One of those words Igbos share with Edos, there is a quarter in my town called "Ogbe otu", it has been named so since antiquity.

You are truly limited in Knowledge about Igboland and people to be taking part in this discussion.

“Agbor Nta formerly called Ominije is the cradle of civilization. Ogelle or Ogene lived as the great priest. He became Oriowor and was greeted “Oriowor or Oken Eze” meaning “Oriowor, the Great King” (Anioma Essence, 2007).

Deep up in Taraba, Maiduguri and Adamawa, I've seen places with Igbo sounding names. Some places have names starting with Chuku. Some even Chukwu. I know you would claim it's Igbo names if it were to be in Ika.

Now this is trash, and I'm sure you know that.

Ana akogheri.

Cire80:
Ebonka is not an Igbo name. Only one occasion I heard Ebo in Igbo and it was in a song. Was definitely borrowed from Anioma. There is nobody outside of Anioma area that bears that name. Ebon is from the Edo word Evbo. In all my interactions with Igbos, I've never seen anyone that used this word for kindred but it's a very popular and important word in both Edo and Ika and to some extent Enuani. I've always maintained that Igbo name has been in use in Ika land for centuries but it's not up to 20 %which is evident in all our history, streets schools, names of our ancestors and forefathers, quarters and villages. 90% of all the village names, street names, extended family names, primary and secondary school names in Ika land are Edo. All these things were named after our founders and ancestors. You can only see one or two Igbo names in our history and some of the Igbo sounding names are shared by Igbos and Edo Eg. Edogun/Odogun and Odogwu which has the same meaning in both languages.

Deep up in Taraba, Maiduguri and Adamawa, I've seen places with Igbo sounding names. Some places have names starting with Chuku. Some even Chukwu. I know you would claim it's Igbo names if it were to be in Ika.

Lol! If we accept that Ebon isn't same as Ebo in Igbo, what then happens to "ka" ? Is that also part of the Edo ish?

You are being petty.
Ebo is used all over Igbo land.
You hear it in Igbo Christian songs as "Odum Ebo Judah", the Lion of tribe of Judah. You know next to nothing about Igbos of SE or our language, and so in no position whatsoever to tell us anything about our language. Ebo was not borrowed from anywhere, it's part and parcel of Igbo lexicon.

Ebonka has nothing to do with Evbo.

Cire80:
if you've been following this thread, you wouldn't ask this question. This interview laid bare some of the misinformation your brothers have been spreading around. Eg, the brotherhood between Edo and Agbor and how old in time it extended, the age of Agbor Kingdom and its Monarchy and the hereditary Monarchy of the Agbor people. There are many other points I can get out from it but let's leave it here

The relationship between Bini and Agbor was never those of brotherhood, it was rather that of adversaries, between a rampaging imperialist big Bini kingdom, and strong Agbor kingdom resisting her with all her might.

The Obi of Agbor cannot rewrite history as we know it just to score cheap political points.