Abdelkabir:

من احدث فى أمرنا هذا ما ليس منه فهو رد

وإياكم و محدثات اﻷمور

#Can you please give a concise & comprehensive scope of what these words entail-: أمرنا & محادثات اﻷمور

#Is it only what came from the mouth of NABI (saw) ?

#Or including those that of that of sahabas with no precedents in sunnah ?

#Or including all that conforms with kitab & sunnah even if they were not documented & pls backup your replys with references.

#Was the NABI (as) instructing only his sahaba then only, not to accept new inventions or including later generations ? Meaning no more ‘sunnatul taqreeriyyah‘ for them after his demise ?

#As for UMAR (ra) you do not have to interprete for him. He himself knew what he started anew for him to make such remark. Its not about just leading taraweeh, before his innovation people were being led. And thats not the only innovation of his .

Abdelkabir: http://Sunnah.com/muslim/12 1017a

Dont joggle them. These are two different hadith, 2 different authors 2 different meanings!

1-that of abu huraira is to call to an already established act.
2-the on that link reads...set good PRECEDENT & that denote something new!

No where did the messanger mentioned good precedent as act of worship

Hmmm...are there some acts that are not of worship that pleases GOD & attract reward ? Think well b4 you answer this o with proof from kitab & sunnah, cos GOD wont give reward for an act that goes against his orders & the whole glory of religion is on obedience to his orders.

I have not left anything at all that will take you closer to allah except that I have commanded (enjoined) you with it....

Yeah! Very clear cut!

1-But did he forget to enjoin those who performed ‘sunnatut taqreeriyyah‘ in those acts ?

2-The other innovations started by the sahabas after his demise, who legislated it for them as permissible ? Where they wrong in respect to that clear cut hadith ? If not, what is the bases for there justification on those innovations ?

Empiree:
Finally

Thats some clear understanding up there.

Accepting peoples weird way of life shouldnt extend to supporting it.

@albaqir

No one could have said it better. One funny thing is that, we all know the truth but so far its coming from an ‘opponent‘, we wont want to accept it out of sentiment.

GOD is the TRUTH!!! Q31:30

We should learn to take the message & leave the messanger.

#As reported by MUSLIM: hadith #1017 also reported by ibn majah, tirmidhi from JABIR bn ABDULLAH:-

He who INTRODUCED some good practice in ISLAM which was followed after him, he would be ensured of reward like one who follow it without their reward being diminish in any respect, also whoever INTRODUCES a bad pracrice in ISLAM will be ensure of the punishment of those who follow it.

AbdelKabir:


وَرَهْبَانِيَّةً ابْتَدَعُوهَا مَا كَتَبْنَاهَا عَلَيْهِمْ إِلَّا ابْتِغَاءَ رِضْوَانِ اللَّهِ فَمَا رَعَوْهَا حَقَّ رِعَايَتِهَا

and (as for) monkery(i.e not getting married), they innovated it-- We did not prescribe it to them-only to seek Allah's pleasure[b], but they did not observe it with its due observance;[/b]

First of all, in this vs you quoted as proof for that IMAM, GOD clearly didnt knock them for the bid‘a of MONKERY but for their lack of staying true to it.
The anecdote of MARYAM (as) points to the fact that MONKERY is not a bad BID‘A in their sharia for NABI ZAKARIAH(as) was her guide in it Q3:35-37, So, in reference to that hadith up there, thats bid‘a hassanah. Meaning a path can be invented to please ALLAH so far it conforms with the sharia. I can provide a list of such from the sahaba, both before & after the demise of the NABI(saw). So, you are yet to backup your understanding of bid‘a.

Abu israa'il was doing that as an act of worship and to seek the pleasure of Allaah

The hadith of bukhari in his book of TIBB from ABU SAID L KHUDRI, where some sahaba INNOVATED the recitation of fatiha to cure a scorpion sting (helping people is an act of worship that attracts reward) & was commended by the NABI(saw) points to fact that the NABI(saw) didnt reject the act of ABU ISRAII based on INNOVATION.

#So, you are yet to link that unanimous concensus of the scholars to kitab & sunnah as demanded by Q4:59, that IMAM‘S opinion on bid‘a doesnt tally with the vs you quoted.

#UMAR (ra) is the father of bid‘a hassanah.

^^^

Good!

#Did the holy prophet (saw) claimed what that sahaba did is bid‘a or is it just your own understanding ? Any back-up from kitab & sunnah to substantiate the accuracy of this your understanding as the definition of bid‘a ?

#Can you bring a reference where the holy prophet (saw) called that type of act bid‘a ?

#Is this the type of proof the scholars quoted by @Newnas banked on ? Any reference to that from them ?

#Mind you, thats also a sahaba (salaf), had he done that after the demise of the holy prophet (saw), other sahabas & taab‘in might have emulated him & so on down the line, I hope you get where I driving @ ?

#So, this correction from the Nabi (saw) was it out of compassion to the sahaba or to sever a bid‘a act ? Any Proof ?

Newnas:


@bolded, you understand him well. Now understand me too well.

There is no difference of opinion among the sahabah and all those after them that not all Bidah is kufr (disbelief).

I quoted so many scholars who hold mentioned this clearly, and Ibn Taymiyyah even said in kitabul eeman that whoever says otherwise has gone against the consensus of the companions rodiyaLLaahu anhum and the four imams and other than the four imams.

And I even gave me a screenshot of a similar statement by Ibn Taymiyyah in Muqaddimah usool tafseer.

The onus lies on him to break this claim of consensus by mentioning and referencing just one scholar who proceeded Jabata in this opinion.

Now I get you. But before we refer back to him, this unanimous opinion you claimed all the salafs hold, there is no way they could have done that without reference from the kitab & sunnah, that I‘m very sure of coz it would amount to innovation. Now, can you just quote a single reference where they claimed to have pulled their unanimous opinion from to shut all these ?

Coz in order to satisfy the condition laid down by GOD in that vs, every ruling must have its origin from kitab & sunnah, even if all creation are going to unanimously agree to it, if it doesnt originate from GOD it wont be accepted sofar that very vs is still relevant.

The reference you seek from jabata is inconsequential in all these. This is really not about him but about what has being dividing the ummah. I.e what bid‘a is & what it is not, I hope you get me ?

Empiree:
Check out these dresses. If ladies dressed like the 2016 ladies in 1960s, people back then would think they are sick in the head. The same way homosexual was seen in the 60s as some sort of sickness. There is nothing like "homo-gene".

Time will tell what else they gonna claim is "our right". There are already "topless women" and they celebrate in New York August every year. They walk round with bare bo**bs

Yeah I heard being topless on the streets of NY is not an offence.

Newnas:


To you, the word of the scholars has no meaning because you are an innovator and that's the only way you can establish your khariji and mutazili innovation.

Relax Newnas, this is a very simple matter. I think maybe you didnt get Ahlusunna clearly.

He meant if you must quote a scholar on any religious ruling, then you‘ll have to reference their ruling to kitab & sunnah, since we belief they (the scholars) cant or mustnt go against the kitab & sunnah, so their stance must have an origin, unless you believe they have an independent say in religious matters.

This stance of his conforms accurately with Q4:59, where GOD said obedience is to him, his messanger & the ‘scholars‘ but should the scholars deviate on a matter, we should refer back to him & rasul (kitab & sunnah). This very vs shows that any scholar must bring a reference from kitab & sunnah on a ruling to get our acceptance as commanded by GOD.

All these @ the end, will boil down to redefining what bid‘a really means in that hadith of nana Aisha (as): this very phrase:- WHAT IS NOT FROM IT. I hope you get it ?

LadunaI:


Many thanks there for that beautiful explanation. I knew I am gonna get more than what I bargain for LOL.

That last paragraph got me thinking somehow. Can you please explain further. Especially this statement :
#But every fard has his realworld merged with his slumber (dream) by default.

Thanks

Fardaniyya is the advance stage in sideeqiyya. The first half of sideeqiyya ends when the ascension of the ruh reaches its native realm, making the NAFS attaining its utmost purity which betokens the fullness of ma‘rifa (صفاء الروح from which the word ‘TASAWWUF‘ was derived): just like in the condition it were before being infused into the body, thats the purification/attainment God was refering to in Q91:9. This very stage denotes the begining of fardaniyya.

So, the ruh of an ‘aarif in such state has no hijab from the realities of Godhood, whether awake or asleep, & thats the mergence.

*****the body (physical) in such state has been totally overpowered & vanquished through jihad nafs, giving the ruh an upper hand, so therefor sleep, slumber, madness, coma, death etc & all hindrance relating to physical cannot hinder the ruh from realities hencefort.

^^^

**mind you, this does not mean a fard wont observe the sharia where applicable like performing ablution when he wakes up, like some variants of that hadith claimed in respect to the ambiyya. The wilayya & the nubuwwa might share some traits but they both run on different law system.

LadunaI:


So this open another topic. What is your take on the type of travelling of sufi. Ability to shelve @ will with full awareness in the spiritual realm

Here so that we dont derail that thread.

#Thats the shelling we talking about. A feature of the spiritual bearings of this terrestial realm we share with the jinns & then upward unto the celestial (MALAKUT, JABARUT), a plane where dreamland falls into.

#Actually, its got nothing to do with TASAWWUF per se but with spiritiality. Spiritual prowess can be attained irrespective of Godliness or ungodliness.

#Whoever developes his/her spirituality, whether through Godly means or otherwise or has it by default, can easily experience things like that.

#What differenciates between people with such prowess & those without is that they can experience or exploit the properties of the ethereal in a state of wakefulness not until in dreamland.

#So, what differentiates between the Godliness & the ungodliness is the channel through which such prowess is attained. As the QURAN & the HADITH have made us known that the demonic spiritual spectrum is ruled by the demons while the angelic is ruled by the holy spirits.

#So, for whoever is tapping into the demonic network to advance his spirituality, his RUH wont be able to transcend the firmanent (where the demons used to lodge to decode waves) whether in dream or in wakefulness due to Q26:212 Q55:33-35 (those denied here are the shayateen & their allys among men). But for he whos channel is angelic can transcend the whole of the empyrean upto JABARUT (native of the angels & ruhs) according to individual‘s capacity.

#But every fard has his realworld merged with his slumber (dream) by default. Meaning every fard goes into dreamland with a wakeful mind, fulltime, in reference to that hadith of nana aisha (ra) where the prophet (saw) claimed his heart sleeps not. That endowment actually starts from WILAYYA before its advancement in NUBUWWA.

@empiree

Its really a hard pill to swallow when one realizes that, all this while, he has been indoctrinated with some doctored & doped up poo in the name of aqeedah. Its funny how the method they invented now turned to be a pain in their ass when used against them

#As for Mr. Sunnah a.k.a all bid‘a are kufr, Iam waiting for him to make takfir on -:

1-S. Abubakar for compiling the QURAN.

2-S. Umar for seperating maqam Ibrahim from the kaaba & building a structure around it.

3-S. Usman for introducing adhan on jummah @ begining of noon.

4- S. Ali for organising a second eid prayer.

And a host of other sahabas who innovated.

Then we‘ll know who he really is.

LadunaI:


Empir.ee you NO do well o o. Why did you NOT show thyself in that pics, leaving only the sisters. Na you we want see for nairaland here LOL .

You and ikupa.kuti are always trying to remain anonymous, and we gonna SEE thy FACEs one DAY insha Allah.

Have a BLESSED DAY!

Lolz i believe @empire deliberately cropped himself out of that photo or he took their pix from his angle. Was actually straining my eyes to get a clue,none.

As for moi....

قال لن ترانى

@albaqir
Just one question. What do you think make men effeminate in nature ?

Empiree:
Answering tintingz, with respect to gays in saudi. Writer says further.

So clearly, they don't even talk about "homogene" bcus it doesn't seem to exist. Homosexual in Arabia is caused as a result of EXTREME SEPARATION. Got this? .

Yeah! Extreme segregation is one of the major factor. There is an hadith (I‘ll find it) where the holy prophet (saw) related the story of a certain people to that effect. Thats why its so rampant in boarding schools, prisons etc.

AlBaqir:



# In fact at the beginning of this chain of dialogue, I made it clear that I am more concern about those with "these genetic disorder" (here I meant effeminates) because it is never their wish they get attracted to "same sex", not those that develop being "gay" by whatever means.

The OP was about gay wedding right ? Like I stated from the very first page of this thread, no one cares about what you are attracted to!

#The OP isnt about what or not you are attracted to but sodomy & thats what everybody has being condemning!

#Nobody is condemning the effeminates here, sofar your effeminacy is not going to make you submitting your anus for another man to drill, nobody cares!

#Men get attracted to women but still, GOD said LEAVE HER ANUS ALONE!!!

#Can you show me a post here advocating punishment for the effeminates?!

#So far you come with a phallus whether it is working or not is your buisness. You are not a woman. Period!

AlBaqir:



# Second, I wonder how you come back to the bold because you have never centre any of your comment there. All what you've been commenting on is the sex.ual act of homosexuality.

Check my very second post on this thread.

# Is it Allah that made those effeminates or Hermaphrodites like that? Please don't let us go there. That's gonna be another hell of a debate and probably chain of misunderstanding.

who did ? Me ?

Q3:6 Q82:7-8 Q42:49-50

Empiree:
I don't tell am now. Me and him don discussed this on another platform. I cited examples too. This aint gay thing. Homosexual is something they invented for themselves and voluntarily engage in.

Fortunately though, albaqir recognized homosexual, gay, sodomy and whatever it is called to be haram. That's seals it.

but Albaqir is pushing for therapeutic measures for convicted homos & abolition of the capital punishment. He said he used to believe in stoning/beheading but not anymore & thats whats putting him @ loggerheads with people here.
Ask him or go through his posts.

Empiree:
This is the article albaqir was trying to post before anti-spam bot activated

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15532739.2016.1250239

Whoever wants to read can go ahead. I have and gave my opioid on it.

What albaqir failed or refused to grasp here is that abnormality or deformity in nature @ birth is an entirely different issue from the act of sodomy. Once he agrees that there is no excuse under the shari‘a for a man to penetrate a man/woman through the anus then this issue would be solved.
#Whatever therapy (out of necessity) you want to seek for those whose nature are epicene in either sexes must incline towards the type of sex organ they came with or that which is paramount in the case of those hermaphroditic. There is no harm to seek hormonal treatment for a man with a male sex organ who feels less manly in order to feel more manly.

In sofar whatever is responsible for your confused mentality didnt deem it fit to provide you, as a man, with a v-jay, then your fate is already sealed with the sex organ you came with.

Empiree:
Olodo jati jati. Thats what the verse is talking about?. Olodo ni e

Awon alakada. Make i continue watching you all in 5D

No difference btw y'all

Lols

Empiree:
this describes me growing up. I had baby face, soft spoken, soft skin, shy like women, women level of thinking and pop once called me "dense". Yet i am 100% a man. People this category simply need exposure to break it off. Now I am a freaking dude bold voice, masculine statue but unfortunately, skin remains soft and thats pissing me off

@albaqir

I dont know whether you are deliberately mixing this up or is it that you dont get it.

#The QURAN/GOD isnt againt those men who lack the quiddity of manliness or men whose nature are epicene coz thats the work of nature as willed by GOD.

#What GOD/QURAN is against is SODOMY.

#That a man doesnt have desire for women like you submitted or doesnt get erections doesnt automatically translates to an itching anus.

#If you claim you got no desire for women as a man ok, do you have a v-jay ? Coz sexual intercourse is only permitted among opposite sexes.

#What those who practice this despicable act are oblivious is that, the devils who animate & psych them into this base act do not indulge in it themselves due to how destructive & fast it is in incuring the wrath of GOD. We hear cases of humans having encounters with ASEQ(lover jinns) of opposite sex in dream, I‘m yet to hear a man/woman dream of being penetrated from the rear.

AlBaqir:


# Kindly help me post the link I made such claim. I believe that was not my personal statement but quote somewhere else. However, it is easy to claim something, it is another thing to back it up with authentic evidence(s).

Albaqir dont tell me you are that moony this is a post you posted just yesterday, anyways

https://www.nairaland.com/3915669/first-ever-muslim-gay-wedding#58409543

# Lastly, there are some things I (personally) used to believe before (e.g stoning to death, beheading etc) that obviously are no more in my beliefs.

Ofcourse You ought to modify your beliefs & be as liberal as liberty its self or how do you intend to accommodate & benefit from those ultra-weird kinky fatwas from them AYATOLLAHS ?

Plus you wouldnt wanna get beheaded for enjoying yaself, would you ?

I‘m tired of arguements. I‘m out! Please yourself.

AlBaqir:


# Quran did not state specific punishment for homosexuality. Unlike Zina, thieving, etc. It is left for the Nabi or his rightful successor (who is a masoom) to implement a law by Allah's guidance.

This is a quote from your post

AlBaqir:
‘O you! Messanger of Allah (sawa) had judged regarding (a case) similar to yours with three judgements....a strike with the sword in your neck, it reaches what it reaches, or throwing you off the mountain with your hands and feet tied up, or burning with the fire...

ALL DEATH!!

#So, this judgement of death passed by the NABI (saw) did it come from outside the QURAN ? Does he have another source of guidance other than the QURAN ?

# His “rightful successor masoom“ can also recieve WAHY-l-TASHR‘I that may overrule an existing decree right ?

# And you are now the next “rightful successor“ that is soliciting therapy for gays instead of the capital punishment ? you must be very merciful !

# However, Quran open the door of hope:

The door of hope which the merciful prophet (saw) failed to exploit right ?

# Even Umar Ibn al-Khattab testified that Ali Ibn Abi Talib was the best judge of the Ummah. Hence, you see Ali correcting several misjudgements of Umar during his Khilafah.

#Best judge as in overruling existing divine laws you meant abi ? Honestly what you intend to achieve with all these is beyond me.

sino:

Jazakallahu khayran!

Once some people read scientists "says" or "suggests", oti pari, it has been proven ultimately ni yen.

There is no conclusive evidence for a genetic marker for homosexuality or sexual orientation, the best that is out there is just correlation, and that does not mean such gene is responsible for being gay or determines sexual orientation! And even if there is such gene that predisposes a person to become homosexual (by the way, this said gene can only be seen in male and not female counterparts), it still does not make it normal or natural. Let me explain, there are some genes in women especially Brca 1 and 2, which predisposes them to cancer of the breast (and it is even inherited), do we now say, well it is genetic, we should accept that cancer of the breast is normal?! And by the way, research on human health with respect to diseases, disorders as well as treatment, is tending towards the molecular level.

AlBaqir why trying to smuggle homosexuals into the Qur'an?! Allahu musta'an! So why did Allah (SWT) destroyed the people of Lut (AS)?! And the verse you quoted about men who have no desire for women is basically about impotent men, or older men! Never about homosexuals! Abi don't you know that we have lesbians too?! Can we use the same verse to excuse them too, Sheikh AlBaqir?! Read and learn the Qur'an properly abeg!

@ the bolded, thats even by the way!

Its the same albaqir that related how Imam ali (ra) single handedly “overrule“ a decree made by GOD & his prophet (saw) by pardoning a confessed sodomite out of “mercy“ discountenancing Q33:36 by claiming GOD has forgiving him. Is that a new WAHY-l-TASHR‘I or what ?
If it were Sayyidna Umar (ra) that was alleged to have done that, only GOD know the amount of skyscraping posts he would have created to sentence him.

impossible27:


no I am not a Muslim but I did IRS from primary to my js3 and I read both the Quran and the bible just for knowledge.

what did u mean by the bolded?

Good. I thought as much.

#You see, let me put it briefly. The definition of ISLAM is total submission to the will of GOD.

#Therefor a MUSLIM is someone who has decided to make such sacrifice.

#let me break it down. A MUSLIM is someone who has agreed to sacrifice his freewill for the sake of GOD whenever the 2 clashes & that is what every MUSLIM is going to get compensated for in the next life. Thats what makes this life a “prison“ for a believer coz the freedom to exercise his freewill is confined & restricted: a trial from GOD.

#A MUSLIM doesnt desire another verdict once GOD has made a decree cos he believes GOD is perfect in all attributes of his, therefor cannot be questioned or secondguessed, talkless of comparing his stance on a matter with that of a creature (scientist) no matter how ridiculous those stances appear to him.

#Therefor nobody, not even a prophet on his own, dare change what GOD has already decreed. A MUSLIM would never use that conjt. “but“ between GOD & a creature in such manner as you did up there.

AlBaqir:


# Empiree, like I said earlier to ikupakuti, story of Nabi Lut was a narration of what happened over a long period of time

.

What is the differece between a crime committed then & now ?

Punishment did not just come straight away as you guys imagining.

You are mixing up mode of punishment for a whole community who rejected divine massaege to that of an individual who committed a sin under an established law system. The former doesnt come immediately until their time is out but the later does once evidences are established.

# Third, this is the era of Muhammad, sharia of Muhammad. Effeminates were present in the society of, at the time of Nabi Muhammad, may my life be of sacrifice to him,. How were they treated? Hence, what is Islamic solution for these people?

I have stated that there is a difference between effeminates/hermaphrodites & supposed gays. Stop twisting it.

There are effeminates that dont claim to be gays & there are gays that arent effeminates. PEOPLE DONT CHOOSE TO BE EFFEMINATE BUT CAN CHOOSE TO BE GAY! GOD DIDNT DESTROY THE PEOPLE OF LUT FOR BEING EFFEMINATE BUT FOR SODOMY.

# You can save your time like iku.pakuti by saying: "they should be killed".

Its not iku.pakuti that said they should be killed its your prophet (saw) that said it. (and he speaks not of his own desire) Imam ali (ra) also confirmed it according to you.

@ Mr. impossible27

Are you a muslim ?

You see this

religion has teaches us it bad and the people doing that must be punished but sicence has revealed that some of these gays are genetic

is the mother of all faux pas. but I need to know your creed first. That deviant I know.

AlBaqir:


# Have seen series of issues and experiences in my life whereby people need psychological and spiritual help. And through great efforts, they were cure of their problems.

Save your breathe, brother. GOD is more a psychologist/spiritualist than you‘ll ever be & he knows the needs of his creatures better, both the necessary & unecessary ones and yet he has passed his judgment.

# I have brought facts that group of these people existed at the lifetime of Nabi, in fact they were living in the houses of sahabah. Cite me an example how Prophet treated them, apart from what the hadith says, "put them out of your houses".

All types of perverts existed in his time & there are stipulated punishment for every but you need to be caught to be penalized. Show me where 2 were caught redhanded in the act & he asked that they be “put out of the house“ ?

# Were there records he hunted them down, and killed them?

Nobody is hunting anybody down just like that stop deviating. If you commit a crime & run away, ofcourse you‘ll be hunted down & penalized.

# You guys treat Quran and Nabi (Islam generally) as no mercy religion.

If your own definition of mercy contradicts that of God then I cant help you. I‘m sure if you were LUT, you‘ll probably challenge GOD on the type of punishment appropiate right? or refuse to leave their midst after warning out of “mercy“ right ? You‘d have made history as the only NABI deranked & annihilated along with his people Q11:46 Q11:76

#God decide what amount of time hes willing to endure the transgression of a people. Some are not even upto 40yrs & thats not barbaric.
إن بطش ربك لشديد

The warning is there for everyone to heed.

#Rulings on offences have already being decided, just dont get caught!

AlBaqir:


# In short, they should be treated like criminals and killed?!

They should be treated the way their creator who knows better than me, you & them treated them in the Quran.

Modified:

Mind you the case of sodomy is an already decided case in Islam. There is no excuse any mordern scientific probing will do to mitigate it & nobody can claim to be more lenient/clement than God in terms of dishing out appropiate penalties for sins.

Being effeminate as a man or hermaphroditic & pretending to be gay are two different things.

#If you claimed to be unmanly or hermaphroditic, fine, we dont need any scientific/psychological probatives to know that.

#If you now claim to be attracted to men as a man there is nothing unusual in that anybody can get attracted to anything.

#But if you claim to have sexual attraction to a fellow man as a man then we‘ll ask you how you mean ? If you dare say you feel like poking the anus of a fellow man or you desire yours being poke, then the devil has joggling with your faculty of comparing & choosing coz the anus is not a sex organ.