₦airaland Forum

sportsmaster:
you fail to understand that the OT was fufilled in the new.

lemme solve your debacles bit by bit


Jesus himself explained this .A simple study will do.

Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, who was a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

notice the highlighted.
Jesus simply said that the whole point of the law are those 2 things he listed above in the bolded.



James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled; yet you give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

read this and tell me what you notice.
James was not talking about the same faith Paul was talking about.


firstly the OLD testament is done away with
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he says, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, says the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away.

2Co 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministry of the Spirit be more glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remains is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, who put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly see the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old covenant; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when one shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Notice the comparison in these portion in quoted.

LIFE vs DEATH,
SPIRIT vs LETTER,
RIGHTEOUSNESS vs CONDEMNATION.

the law is done away with in Christ.


the law comes with condemnation and death and curses.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me[us] free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree:

Christ fufilled the demands of the law with his death,He became a curse for us.he took our place.
he tasted death for all of us.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


the books of the Old testament needs proper interpretation.Jesus explained to his disciples after his resurrection
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it was fit for Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem

The Epistles explains the OLD testament.
read through the epistles.
Hope we are clear!
cc Goshen360,Image123

i think you are both saying the same thing differently. The Old Testament Bible is the Word of God and is forever settled and relevant. The Old COVENANT with Israel as been replaced by the New COVENANT/agreement in Jesus Christ.

vooks:
At what point in Revelation does Jesus return?

And at what point do we have Rapture?

i skimmed through your ongoing discussion with Scholar8200. One thing to note is that the "coming of the Lord" is a phase, very similar to the "day of the Lord". Depending on context, the day or coming of the Lord may be referring to many things, from Judgement to Reward to what we call millenial reign to rapture etc. All these are different events that happen at different times and not concurrently or simulteneously. Like his first coming has His Birth, His Life, His Death, His Resurrection and His Ascension. His Second coming will be 'kicked off' with the rapture(my opinion from study etc of course).

So, to Revelations. At what point do we have Rapture, that's chapter4v1. Chapters2 and 3 are letters to the church, and just like other epitles in the Bible, these letters are for both the direct/immediate recipients and for we believers. There is some message there for us. Jesus is still who He is in the letters; holding the stars, the keys, walking in the midst, knowing our works etc. The church and all believers are still called to overcome etc. After the church age, there is a COME UP HITHER, to see things which must be hereafter..
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

Up there, Heaven is seen, saints/elders are also seen, then of course the Lamb and the worship etc in chapters 4 and 5. Chapters 6 to somewhere in 19 talk mainly about the tribulation events on earth. Mainly not Only. Revelation 19v11 shows the literal second coming to earth WITH the saints.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

You know the rest i guess. the beast is taken, Jesus and His army reign on earth, satan is bound etc.

Gombs:
This is what I have come to believe..

The angels said to Jesus’ disciples, “...This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

His coming is imminent. When He comes, “...The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...” (Acts 1:11; 1 Thess. 4:16,17).

Following the Tribulation, He shall return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, and together with His saints, who shall be kings and priests, He shall reign a thousand years (Rev. 5:10; 20:6).

Joagbaje... Can you expound on the other two, and Leta see whether they be same or totally different.

Cc
Vooks, image123, Olaadegbu, nannymcphee, Trustman

Hmmmmm, good evening. i've been trying as much as lies in me to avoid doctrinal threads recently. Knowledge is good and knowledge of the Truth makes one free. Also though, knowledge puffs off and i find this latter the case oftentimes outside of fellowship. Nonetheless, i'm one for the privilege to share, and i thank my 'inviter' Knowing that maybe one soul somewhere sometime may perhaps be blessed, taught, or instructed, and also in cognizance of the fact that knowledge of correct doctrine doesn't take anyone to Heaven or eternal life. i'd rather be the repented thief on the cross with no braggadocio about the correct views on trinity or tithe or rapture, than have all knowledge and not be prepared to meet the Lord.
That been stated clearly, i am of the leaning that the rapture precedes the Great Tribulation, then the Second Coming. The order of events awaited are Rapture, Great Tribulation, and Second Coming. In summary;
-The rapture is the catching AWAY of believers to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.
-The Great Tribulation is a period of wrath and judgement ON THE EARTH.
-The Second Coming is Jesus the Christ's second COMING to THIS EARTH.
Note that the rapture(or it's idea and teaching if you like) is not a COMING in the sense but an appearance, in a short moment. "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The Great Tribulation is not eternal judgement, it is not hell fire, it is not annihilation or destruction. The Tribulation is a period ON EARTH, not in hell or gehenna or some place else. Bible students know and believe this. Also, the Israelites seemed to be aware and expectant of some sort of tribulation, haven been several times warned so by the Old Testament prophets. This is evident in John Baptist's assuming preaching.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? There was a wrath to come, a tribulation been expected. It was referred to in many OT scriptures and it is on earth, a period of suffering and troubles. Yes, man's days are full of trouble but this one is different, intense and specific.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The last passage there refers to the period as a time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. Jacob/Israel will be saved, and so also will the saints of God.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If the words and promises of Jesus are true and if He is the same yesterday, today and forever, we can be sure that the believers will not pass through the Great tribulation.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The book of Revelations is clear and to a major extent chronological. It depicts the saints and elders in heaven before God and His throne and His angels while the tribulations and woes and trumpets and vails are going on.
Chapters 1-3 are pre-rapture. Chapter4v1 is highly symbolic of the rapture.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

AFTER THIS, after earth and the overcomings etc, a door is opened in heaven. Saints are there etc. Tribulation begins on earth around chapters 6 to 19. In chapter 19, we see the Second Coming to earth, where the King of kings and Prince of Life comes to earth, defeats the beast and reigns etc till the end of course. i've talked much already. Thanks again.

Well, I'm not an interpreter of dreams but something is clear here. There's a solution to your "problem". Believe God for it in Jesus' name.

theV0ice:
Very good job image123....

I hope NNPC keeps up this new style of openness. Our oil industry has been operating under an opaque regime for too long.

Hope to hive it a proper look tommorow

thanks bro.

Full document can be publicly accessed here.
cc: PassingShot, Tonyebarcanista, Whynotthetruth, Dearpreye, Firefire, Mogidi, Mizmycoli, IsraeliAirforce, Obiagelli, Egift, Omenka, Donphilopus, Pendy79, Jarlons, Caseless, Aresa

In this table, PPMC Pipeline Breaks from January - August 2015, i find one or two things intriguing. One is the fact that pipeline vandalism has not been too different. The difference again has been efficiency. Some have come up with the ridiculous idea that APC were the ones vandalising pipelines to sabotage GEJ's government. Therefore since GEJ is out, vandalism has stopped. No, vandalism hasn't stopped though it evidently has improved in some areas and we hope for more improvement. Notice that it is same same in some areas. i find funny the increase in pipeline vandalism in the Port-Harcourt line. Their brother is no more there so they have upped the tempo as it were. Yet it the FG begins to deal with this people, they will shout witchhunt and cry foul play, they are arresting and killing our sons instead of fighting boko haram etc.
Portharcourt goes from around 10 line breaks in March 2015 to 48, 54, 71, 72 and 117 line breaks from April to August. The message is pretty clear. Kaduna is zig zag though appearing to favour the new government with a sharp drop to 5 line breaks in August. i'm hoping we can get to the point of zero line breaks, Amen.


Here is the report's Summary of Challenges and Way Forward
Key Challenges facing the Corporation which adversely impacts its profitability include:
 Asset Integrity Issues: Incessant pipelines breakages nationwide has led to massive leakages and huge accounting losses to NNPC; Pipeline repairs and other associated cost accounted for about N69.4Bn in YTD 2015 alone.
 Crude Oil and Product theft/losses: About N45.8Bn recorded as crude oil and product theft/losses for 2015 YTD resulting from vandalized pipelines. About 1,824 pipeline breaks recorded by PPMC in 2015 so far.
 Sub-commercial Contracts: Poorly negotiated legacy contracts have contributed adversely to the profitability of the corporation.
 Low capacity utilization of refineries: Largely due to refinery asset integrity issues and lack of crude oil feed due to vandalized pipelines.
 Subsidy management: Unrealized subsidy claims of about N231Bn for 2015 alone responsible for over 61% of the deficit recorded by the Corporation.
 Inefficient Business Models: Some of the Corporation’s business units are not operating the most efficient business models that will position the company for profitability

-The Low capacity utilization of refineries is largely due to refinery asset integrity issues and lack of crude oil feed due to vandalized pipelines. Despite several expensive TAMs by the previous administration, we have issues with asset integrity, and sabotage of crude oil feed. Definitely, someone was a very poor manager of the NNPC for years. See also INEFFICIENT BUSINESS MODELS. The NNPC was not positioned for profitability, someone tampered with models, there was lack of best practices. These and many more are what i take from the just released report. How about you?

This image is a summary of where the papers got their info earlier today. As can be seen, NNPC's major loss is from subsidy payments. This is not news, no point sensationalising the loss accrued from the refineries.

73% of YTD NNPC deficit of N378Bn is accounted for by PPMC deficit of N278.8Bn.
• ***The N278Bn deficit attributable to PPMC mainly comprises of claimable subsidy of N231 Bn ie 82% of PPMC deficit.
Other causes of PPMC deficit include claimable PPMC Pipeline repairs/management cost of N69bn and Crude/ Product
losses of N45Bn due to vandalized pipelines

Nuff said.

This 7th image is on Domestic Gas Supply to the Power Sector & Generation. This confirms and explains what i said earlier on power generation. And for one to think that the GEJ administration put up its best performance in the preceding months to election i.e January February and March. You can easily see that even the best of that administration was simply not good enough in this area. The best they could manage was 672mmscfd and you can see that after they lost elections, they simply didn't care as it were. one can compare the % of Gas Fired Generation to Total Power Generation including Hyrdo, the efficiency difference is clear. Power generation improvement was no propaganda, it was something a majority felt and is reflected in the NNPC report.

In this image, what i noticed was the sharp drop in PMS for June. This is a reminder of the sorry state in which the GEJ government left the nation in May when they and the oil marketers held the nation to ransom. The oil marketers imported enough PMS(Petrol) in May but were not paid by the FG as the FG simply didn't care again. That PMS was howevwer sold in the following month of June, hence the sharp drop in import for that month. This again shows that what wounded us in May truly reflected in this report. Also, from this data we are barely consuming 30million litres of PMS daily, we should take note. The FG used to tell us that we consume around 42million litres daily anytime they are calculating and justifying their high subsidy payments. 30million is different from 42million, they are not the same at all, especially when it is daily and used to calculate annual budget.

This image 5 is clear enough and succint enough. You can see the zero, zero, zero from January to May. This is for people who said that the refineries have been working this way all this while. Notice the note underneath "The combined factors of Low Crude Supply due to vandalized pipelines, Plant preservation cost to maintain plant integrity, Rehab/TAM work are key factors responsible for deficit months prior to August 2015"
There was LOW CRUDE SUPPLY, and money continually spent on TAM and rehab but no show.

This fourth image is for those who think that the functioning of the refineries is mere propaganda or only on the pages of newspaper and twitter handles. The refineries indeed started to function and did produce in July and in August, howbeit with challenges. Many anti-PMBgovernment people have said that there is nothing going on there and that it is all a scam etc. The NNPC says production has started. Warri, Kaduna and Port-Harcourt refineries produced in July and August. The improvements are also visible and tangible from July to August as seen on the tables.

This third image shows us something on POWER i.e light/electricity. People have said that the improvement in power supply was due to rain, a very naive saying BTW. What has happened as being efficiency. There has not been much difference in the supply/commercialisation of gas. The difference has been efficiency, some call it body movement or whatever. We have used almost the same gas commercialisation, but the gas paid for simply got to where it was needed and was used for what it was initially paid for. Looking at the "domestic gas to power" table for instance, one cannot help but shake its head at the previous inefficiency and waste.

In this part of the report attached, as well as in other parts, one cannot fail to notice the efficiency and the reality on ground as regards to national politics. Yes, i am referring to the past GEJadministration of January-May 2015, and the current PMB administration of June-August 2015. We can easily and clearly confirm from this report the works done and undone in the two era this year. From this report table, we see that "Delivery to Refineries" columns. It is clear that no crude oil was supplied to refineries from January to May except in the month of February where a paltry 265,000 barrels were supplied. Compare that to the months of June and July, in this months crude was supplied to the refineries to the tune of 979,000barrels in June, to over 3million barrels in July. Body language or body odour, crude was supplied to our refineries, efforts were made to make them work.
By some miracle too, our direct exports by NNPC were lower in June and July compared to other months January to May. The miracle is that we did not borrow to pay salaries in June and July 2015, where revenue was obviously lower in direct exports.

The NNPC for the first time EVER or at least in a very long time, recently published a report of its activities. The report belongs to all Nigerians as this involves the bulk of Nigeria's money and source of income. To a large extent, how well the NNPC does determines how well Nigeria does, at least until we have a WELL diversified economy. Every Nigerian should be more interested in what is going on there in a sense, because it affects virtually EVERYTHING in a trickle down effect.
The NNPC is famed to be a cesspit of Nigeria's corruption, impunity and no accountability. They have always being found wanting inrecent probes and investigations. It therefore comes as a sort of fresh water to see them give a report of their activities to the public. The report is a 28 page report, and it has this to say in the introduction. "This publication of Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) monthly operational report is one of the initiatives of the Corporation in its ongoing restructuring efforts to ensure probity, transparency and accountability in the conduct of its business. The Report is being published as part of NNPC’s management commitment to keep our shareholders, and the general public informed about our activities. "
Evidently, they are at least making an attempt to give the general public information, i believe we should pay attention and review it together. Without wasting more time, i will be highlighting some of the things i noticed in the report. You are free to take note and of course, add yours constructively.

Cc: lalasticlala Omenka NgeneUkwenu theVoice OrlandoOwoh midolian efilefun ionsman tayebest modath Agarawu23 MizMyColi Mynd44 Seun

vooks:
Is it biblical?

Of course not. I'm just bringing up that angle.

FACTUALLYE:
jux free the guy death don treat hin Bleep up. ( that is if he is truly dead )

I'm not holding him, however what he did was wrong. His work lives after him. He will not rest in peace if he is a thief.

sweatlana:
You've said it all. Adams was much loved by his people. This article is just rubbish. Why is there no mention of all his numerous achievements?

Please mention those numerous achievements.

vooks:
But this is not controversial nor 'celebrity', ' demonic pure heresy

It's controversial in the sense that it got him in the news, and got people talking about him. Jo used to do stuff like that too.

How and why should he rest in peace if he did all these?This is easily the biggest Nigerian criminal CAUGHT going by these. i feel like slapping him for being so wicked.

vooks:
Disgusting!


Gombs, Joagbaje,MutleyLaff,Sportsmaster,Image123,Goshen360

It's like some of these pastors just revel in the controversial. Celebrity style.

Analysis

Lobeez:
I'd have to disagree with you on this one; Firstly, there is nowhere in the world presently where insurgency has been completely wiped out, even in places where world military heavyweights have been involved. So for a government to come in and hastily give a 3 months deadline for crushing BH when the same government have refused to appoint its cabinet siting the lapses in the handover from the past administration as an excuse leaves a lot of questions to be asked. because if the task of naming your cabinet requires you to carefully analyze handover reports first, is it fighting insurgency that will be that easy?

Please check out the link I posted earlier, some revelations there are worth noting
The fact is that these insurgents are well trained on weapons handling as well as guerrilla warfare tactics; we have seen them commandeer armored tanks and effortlessly use them; also remember the 911 attack on the US soil, the terrorists where even trained as pilots. This is 21st century insurgency for you and not the Maitatsine group of the 80's.

On "no where in the world", there's always a first. America don't have to do it before we copy them. We did it in 1984 BTW. Also, setting deadline or time is very good. It helps assessment and commitment. Even our general every day class assignments may not be done or taken seriously without submission time and deadlines. There's extra gear of psychological seriousness that comes with setting time. On boko haram boys, their foot soldiers are mostly ragtag poor children/youths indoctrinated and set to die. At the top, yes. Their sponsors are trained, but the boys running around villages, mba.

hahn:
Lol. What is this? Wordplay?

I don't believe he exists but you do. I can only use your proof that he exists, the bible, which just so happens to contain pages that contradict themselves to prove to you just how silly it sounds. Capish?

If you can only use my proof(the Bible), you'll not be having migraine about whether Jesus is black, white or green in colour.

Lobeez:
Only a fool sets goals arbitrarily. The Nigerian army and Fed Govt are underrating their enemy and this is very dangerous. I watched Channels TV report on yesterday's attack on Geidam and I was amazed at the level of delusion expressed by the Army Chief.
Imagine Buratai telling his boys that Boko Haram are not trained fighters, Immediately knew we had a big problem in our hands.
Please go through this link and check out what our dear army is up against.
http://jihadology.net/category/the-islamic-state/wilayat-gharb-ifriqiyyah

Setting a three months target to quell insurgency is not an arbitrary goal but a very achieveable goal. The boko haram foot soldiers running through villages and towns, killing people, and causing mayhem are not as well trained as the soldiers. Maybe their financiers/sponsors are trained, but not the folks that do the job. These are the ones to whom Buratai referred. They were the ones that held that attack for hours yesterday.

johnydon22:
[b][i]So many times i and am sure other atheists, agnostics, deists, pantheists have heard this question..

"Why be good?"
we have seen this from every angle, even here on nairaland, in real life..

The idea of it from the questioners perspective is

"Since you have no God who will burn you in hell or reward you in heaven then why do you bother being good?

We are very familiar with that and many theists won't deny having conceived that question, trailing that line of thought or asking it when discussing with an Unbeliever or the concept of Unbelief.

Yes, that is simple reason/logic. Actions have reasons else they are UNreasonable. Every serious venture has purpose and goal, and so should every life. People need to be good/do good for a purpose or reason. What makes it okay to be good for nothing?

Actually this line of thought terrifies me, it scares me and gets me really very afraid when i see people ask that question or directly or indirectly imply it...
It makes me think "So without the idea of religion coming up with the concept of a God who is willing to roast you in a literal fire forever these people won't bother to be good?"

"So without it, we would have these people depicting to be saints as serial killers, rapists, murderers, thieves?"

Anybody reading this would agree with me that people who trail such line of thought really lack INDEPENDENT MORAL BASIS, therefore shows someone who has absolutely no need for his brain to guide his day to day activities but allow religious dogmas, superstition and psychological fear do that for him/her.

Of course, only a naive ignorant person will think that humans are not after reward. Humans generally obey laws and do right because there is a reason or system in play. It may be different reasons for each but there is a reason. Some maybe because of fear, some for love, some from experience etc. People obey rules because they know they will get caught or be punished if not, some because it will bring promotion, some because that has always worked for them etc. Religious people also have their rights to attempt good(a wasted attempt IMHO) for their own reasons too. That you have no reason to be good doesn't mean you should dissuade others.

Before i proceed on why an atheist, agnostic, deist or pantheist are good without adhering to the idea of threats to do so, let me first define what an unbeliever Considers to be moral because generally many things religions consider MORAL are directly Opposite of what we (even theists included) consider to be MORAL.

e.g: Killing Unbelievers/Apostates like the Quran has charged
e.g: Killing Brides found not to be virgins as the bible Charged.
(even Mary would have been a victim of this if according to the fable an angel had not warned Joseph in a dream not to rat her out)
[size=15]
So societal Secular definition of Morality is: Actions that DECREASES individual human suffering and/or betters societal well being, freedom, equality and Justice...[/size]

So going by this one is sure to see that what secular society or independent moral basis considers to be MORAL are just actions towards others and the world that are pleasing and not what a religious book says.

Total bunkum i must say. Some people have different views on what suffering is. Some people are sadists and sadomasochists. Their are varying viewpoints and ideologies. What you term suffering is what gives some people joy. Morality is not democracy.

It takes perception to recognize that which we find to be moral (Good to us and the society and what we find not to be) and this is rooted in EMPATHY which is considering the feeling of others in your actions towards them.

SO NOW MOVING INTO WHY AN UNBELIEVER IN A GOD/RELIGION BOTHER TO BE GOOD.

You need to buy bread, you saw John and called him to buy the bread for you. He refuses and goes on his merry way. Ordinarily this one action of John is wrong to you.

There you go again, not every body feels or reacts like you. Someone else's refusal to do what i want is not necessarily wrong to me. You think it is wrong or should be wrong for no reason as usual. Yet when God who has all reasons think it is wrong for you not to do what He wants, you cry "UNFAIR", see your life?

On a second scenario you called John and asked him to buy you a bread offering him #20 tip or threatening to slap thunder out of his eyes if he doesn't and John rushes to buy the bread.. why do do you think John agreed to go to that errand?

Many reasons of course, John might not want to kill you when you dare to slap him, so he avoided that. John might want to help you as he will be passing that way already, so he's helping despite threats. john might need the extra tip. John might want to avoid unnecessary clash because he wants to do something else soon, or doesn't want waste of time quarrels. ETC

On a third scenario; You call Joseph to buy a bread for you, he carries out that request swimmingly ..

What is swimmingly? Anyways, Joseph might be acting based on experience, or even not paying attention, or for any reason A, B, c, or simply no reason.

Which among the two kids John and Joseph (Judging from the 2nd and 3rd Scenario) really did good??

It is a matter of the heart, no one sees the heart but God. Someone you think is doing good may actually be buying time to kill you. He may actually be deceiving you so that you do not see something else that he is doing/covering.

WHY BOTHER BE GOOD..
Robert Ingersoll once said:
"The Only Good is Happiness, Where to be Happy is here and how to be happy is to make OTHERS happy.."

This one simple quote speaks volume of why bother to be Good..

i used to tell one thehomer on this forum how big a fool Ingersoll is/was. Everyone that says there is no God is a fool by the way, it's a fact not an insult. How Ingersoll can say the Only Good is Happiness is ridiculous. On what criteria does he base this? What of Knowledge that atheists usally clamour for, is it not good again? There are millions of happy believers, poor people, sick people etc. Is Love good, Is peace good, Is health good, Is wealth good? Ingersoll says Only good is happiness. Crap.

the rest of the post is about the same thing, i would bother to answer them if you please.

cc: hahn

"The idea that words can mean whatever somebody wants them too is widespread in our culture, especially among many of my atheist friends. The tendency is particularly noticeable when it comes to any words that have anything to do with morality, or ethics, or goodness. Many atheists live in a very black and white, very moral universe: violence, aggression, intolerance, ignorance and, of course, religion and superstition are bad. Conversely, humanism, kindness, generosity, science, technology and progress are good. And lying behind all of this moralising is a key idea: that atheists do not need God to be good."

"In the absence of God, says Leff, there are but two choices: you either turn every individual person into a little godlet, able to decide good and evil for themselves: but then who evaluates between them when there are clashes between godlet claims? Alternatively, you can turn the state into God and let it determine good and evil, but then might becomes right and you have sheer, naked brutality. But in either case, whenever another godlet, or the state, tells you that anything is good, right, or the Proper Thing To Do, you can look them squarely in the eye and sneer: “Really, sez who?”

"One suggestion that atheists have make is that morality is a products of human society. Over time, a kind of shared morality emerges—we generally agree that people should not be allowed to rape and murder at will, for example—and thus our moral code gradually emerges.
It’s a popular idea and there are clearly some elements of truth to it. But there are a huge number of problems, too. First, there is the problem that just because a value is shared, does not automatically make it good. Just consider the example of the Third Reich. Surely it doesn’t matter that the majority of the German people at the time agreed with Hitler, he was still wrong.

Nor does the problem necessarily go away if one could theoretically find laws that every society agreed upon. After all, for most of human history, most societies shared the belief that people could own other people. Slavery was common to most cultures. Did that shared approval make it moral?"

It’s all very well to speak of moral “progress” but progress to where? Progress implies a direction, doesn’t it? If my wife phones me whilst I’m hiking in the mountains and asks, “How’s the hike going?” and I reply, “I’m progressing”, she’ll assume I am nearer my destination, rather than lost in the wilderness with one boot missing and my sandwiches stolen by a gang of marauding squirrels. So then, to where is society morally progressing: what’s the destination? How will we know when we’ve arrived, will there be a sign and a teashop? If not, then what’s the Magical Moral Standard enabling us to look at our culture today and say this is better than it was back then, if society itself determines what ‘good’ means?


These excerpts are from the book "The Atheist Who Didn't Exist"

femzysticks:
Many at times we hear preachers say every man has a particular woman God prepared or vice versa
And they give examples of how God created Adam and made Eve as his wife,
Joseph and Mary
Abraham and Sarah.

My question now is, is the wife of every man the plan and purpose of God for him?

What happens if a man does not marry who God has prepared for him

And how do you really know if a woman is God's plan for your life?

Yes, every human has all that he or she needs provided for them by God including wife and husband. However, it is not compulsorily one person, it is quite flexible. While God may plan a particular person for you, circumstances might change that necessitate another. It takes walking closely with God and fellowship with Him to know what to do, and of course His Word.

hahn:
He oviously didn't read the first write up. He is only concerned about defending his belief. I don't understand how these people think. Just go to the politics section and see how theists insult themselves and then they'll come here and act all holy.

Of course i read the boring OP. You certainly haven't read the link on my Signature Profile, it coincidentally addresses the thread perfectly.

johnydon22:
Good and bad are actions meted towards another and these actions i have seen in humans and other life forms in this planet..

I do not particularly see murdering ones son to appease one's ego good..

Your thread topic/title says why bother to be good, remember? Many millions can also claim to have seen good actions meted towards them and others by God.

hahn:
God doesn't exist. By your analogy, good doesn't exist either

Okay. But you believe He killed His Son right?

hahn:
Utter rubbish. He died for himself after his father decided he was good for nothing more than his barbaric experiment

Okay, but at the same time, you believe He doesn't exist right?