₦airaland Forum

hahn:
But I'm only a man. Why compare me to an all knowing, all seeing, creator of the universe? If I'm unable to explain my word to my son in a way that he would be able to totally understand what I mean then I'm also responsible for his mis understanding.

If you have to use me, a mere creature, as an example to justify the creator's (in)actions then it only points out that the concept of the creator in the first place is a birthchild of the created(supposedly)

Barnabaseloka:
Then post it here. You inferred that not me. I did not say that the apostles wrote anything wrongly!
This was what you wanted me to say, but thank God I wisely did not.

Barnabaseloka:
I am not averting your questions. I have to lay foundation first so that my answers will not be contradictory to the scriptures.
Baptism entails repentance in the sense that one must 'repent' before one is 'baptized'. At the point of repentance, the person becomes washed with the blood of Jesus and becomes a new person. This qualifies him to be called a child of God. Know that all these things happen inside the person (spiritually). The person now goes for water baptism to demostrate outwardly that which has happened inwardly. Remember that the 'spiritual' preceeds the 'physical'. So it is not at the point of baptism (physically) that one becoimes saved, but when one repents, and believes in Jesus Christ (spiritually).

Peter was right in what he said. To Peter, he understood what he had said, but to me, his words were not correlative. The word 'repent' has taken care of remission of sins and not baptism. He must have said a lot of words to PERSUADE them to believe (vs 40).

The same Peter before the incident quoted Joel in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. And after the incident Peter also said in Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOTTED OUT (taken away, wiped away), so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Here Peter did not mention baptism before one's sins are wiped away or before one is saved.

So I will not say that Peter was wrong b/c only Peter understood the words he tried to use to persuade the people. . When we read it literally, it won't give us proper understanding and as such contradicts other scriptural passages. This is why we balance it with other passages in the Scriptures. No two scriptures contradict themselves. Rather all scriptures explain one another. Any misinterpretation is from the inability of humans to strike a balance b/w one passage and another.

brocab:
Yes when I was born, I was baptised by a priest, because my parents made a decision, as I grew, I started making choices' and later I made a choice to follow after Christ. And that choice I became a born again Christian, and baptised in the Holy Spirit..
Jesus as a baby was baptised into His Church, and later becoming a man after making that choice He was baptised by John the baptist.
Receiving the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus wrote: Matthew 19:14, let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them.
These children were pretty much of that age to believe. Babies, haven't the slightest idea what's going on.
And where in the bible talks about the baptism of infants-no-where.

Anas09:
Anyone who is still indoubt as to what the catholic church is, is either ignorant or decieved.
The Catholic Church is very strong organised tool in the hands of Satan to stop the spread of christianity. Look at europe today, there's no christianity because of CC. To succeed in their scheme they raised Islam to stop christianity in Asia while they faced Europe and the entire world as they knew it then.
BUT, the gate of hell shall not previal against the church. Persecute us, kill us. The blood of Christians is seed that will germinate in the homes of Sultans, emirs, and every strong opposer of the gospel.

Barnabaseloka:
Your problem on this issue is that you do not understand those who believe what you do not believe. You hold on to one or two passages and jump into conclusions with them. When someone brings other passages that speak on the same issue, you will not agree but hold on to yours.

If a passage says a thing and another passage seem not to have been written in the same way, how do you resolve that? You resolve it by checking other scriptural passages on that issue for better understanding and not to teach or live in error.

Go and read what I wrote on my conclusion in the thread about 'Mary being the mother of God' and you will understand me. Be open to learn from others but compare scripture with scripture to get a balanced understanding of a topic.

hahn:
Lol
I'm really enjoying this discussion
I wonder why god decided to inspire a book that contrdicts itself such much that its readers are unable to agree. The incompetence of god becomes more and more glaring with each comment made on this thread

Barnabaseloka:
Go and read all these posts you referred to and you will understand what I have written. You are the one that said that what the apostles wrote were wrongly written. I never said so. I learn from others and balance what I hear or say with other passages of the scriptures. Anyone who has read my posts will easily understand it. But you have taken it upon yourself not to undestand them, but to make quick conclusions that you know contradict other passages of the scriptures.

You failed to write expressely what happens to a person when he repents and believes in Christ Jesus, before baptism. What about those who received the Holy Spirit before water baptism- were they not saved? Will the Holy Spirit live inside one whose sins have not been washed away or remitted?

Learn from others but compare scripture with scripture to balance your understanding. People will keep living in error if they pick one or two passages that might not have correlated with other passages and interpret them as they are. This is why we need balancing them for proper understanding.

MuttleyLaff:
Did not try but pointed out that water in that verse is used as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word
I can show countless use of "hydatos" as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word.
It is not always literal or physical water

vooks:
This is shocking
http://www.odan.org/tw_how_opus_dei_is_cult_like.htm

MuttleyLaff:
Cardinal, I didnt want to prolong a situation where someone is set in their thinking or ways, and have their heels dug in.

I have always maintained that:
#1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things)
#2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.
#3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved

Dont know why you go down the heretic route, as I havent objected to water baptism
Have only and always maintained that it is not necessary and the ritual shouldnt be forced
We now live in the spirit and grace dispensation
but if anyone wants to live the hard and old way, they are free to,
only do not like the Pharisees lay burdens on others, do not keep bound others, who ought to be set free

Finally, a picture speaks a thousand words.
Cartoons are worth thousand words, they are capable of telling stories and making points just as well as large amount of posted text

Barnabaseloka:
Go back and read what I posted carefully to get the answer.

MuttleyLaff:
cc OLAADEGBU, Scholar8200, Ubenedictus, Kei844, Esere826, Goshen360, italo, Barnabaseloka
https://s23.postimg.org/hpmn4w4rv/eskimodesert.jpg
How long is a water baptism piece of string?
Where or when is the water baptism line drawn?

Ubenedictus:
someone just implied that the new testament teaching on baptism was done with incomplete knowledge. the holyspirit has given us scripture with incomplete newtestament knowledge. italo did u see that.

brocab:
It wasn't the Church where the the early Christians received their knowledge about Christ, they received their knowledge from the Holy Spirit, after they became born again.
John 14:16-17-"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, that he may be with you forever, that the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him, but you know Him because He dwells with you, and will be in you.

In the early days the Christians didn't need the Catholic Church to teach them anything-plus the early Church didn't know anything' to even teach the Christians about Christ.

The Lord said he will send His helper to teach you all things, He didn't say the Church will teach you all things.

esere826:
aha

If you've decided that your only source of learning is your church. that's fine
Our arguments or discussions then feels almost like a woman dating a man who they both know will never be hers -fruitless

and its also like I would typically say to some MOG indoctrinated fellas here who strongly defend biblical positions their pastors have taken
I'd rather discuss with their knowledge sources -their MOGs

finally,
Yo know that Jeremiah the prophet once invited the children of Jonadab to drink in the house of God as instructed by God
they came, but refused to drink. They said that Jonadab their father had instructed them on how to live, and will keep to it.
Interestingly, God blessed them for such commitment and rebuked Judah for the recalcitrant behaviour.

...I consequently believe that you have blessings for being commited to your own christian tradition

brocab:
As we all know many millions of Catholic's believe in baby baptism-many haven't reached the true baptism of Christ.

John 3:3-5- Jesus said to him "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?"
Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus had said clearly' one must make a choice.

But it seems you Catholic's have a different idea about baptism, none have made a choice, instead you have allowed your parents, to make that choice for you. You all seem to believe your parents made the right decision's, baptising you into the Catholic Church from birth.

So your baptism and the scriptures baptism are totally different.

John 3:3-5-John 3:16-Jesus said: one must believe? And be born again before he can enter the kingdom of heaven.

brocab:
Can water baptism wash away ones sin?

The concept of Baptism washing away sin stems from Acts 22:16-Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sin, calling on His name. Does this mean you can wash away your sins through baptism?

Romans 6:2-7-We died to sin, How can we live into it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into His death.
Colossians 2:12-We were therefore buried with Him through baptism in order, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Mark 16:16-17-Whoever believes and is baptised shall be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Baptism represents a decision to believe in Jesus as our saviour, through baptism we publicly demonstrate that we believe in our salvation obtained through Jesus, who died for us and rose again in three days.
Similarly we symbolically indicate that by accepting Jesus in our lives, we are experiencing a rebirth, our old self had died, we are a new creation through Jesus Christ.
Jesus made this clear when discussing the importance of baptism with Nicodemus John 3:3-8- I tell you the truth, no-one can see the kingdom of God unless one is born again!
It is clear the the baptism doesn't wash away sin, but it is an outward declaration that we want to live with Jesus who is the only one who can forgive sins.
It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make you pure", but that it was a ordinance appointed by Jesus as a public expression of the washing of sin, or the purification of the heart.

Matthew 3:13-15-Jesus showing us a good example, the importance He Himself was baptised, receiving the Holy Spirit-that very same way we through baptism, also receive the Holy Spirit.

esere826:
We never know it all my dear friend
we know a lot in somethings and little in others
I teach what I know (or believe I know), and learn what I know little about

esere826:
the challenge a number of folks have is that they think they know but actually know nothing
and with such haphazard knowledge being masqueraded as the full bouquet of knowledge
they end up thinking that arguments are a battle which they must win
and thus tend to speak authoritatively on issues they have sparsely meditated on

esere826:
If you being so knowledgeable on the things of hell as to be a teacher for all things
I decide to question you rigorously about hell, the way a typical atheist would
i doubt you'd give applaud-able answers

esere826:
In conclusion
.... I think you should be open to learning and not throwing yourself forth as a teacher who has gained infallible mastership

esere826:
** I thought to also add that someone 'not being an expert' in something doesn't neccesarily translate to the person 'knowing so little'
Interstingly, I do know all the teachings about hell within the concept of christianity (probably more than you do), however, it's not something that I have spent time meditating on, neither am I keen to discuss my meditations so far within such a maze as the present thread ****

Barnabaseloka:
Yes baptism is not for the remission of sins. 'Repent' and 'believe' have taken care of the remission of sins. God has already forgiven one's sins and washed one with the blood of Jesus before one goes for baptism. At the point of believing In Jesus, God transforms one into a new creation. This happen inwardly, while baptism physically or visibly shows what took place inwardly in one's life.

Ananias did not say that it was baptism that would wash away Paul's sins. You quoted it halfway, thereby taking away its meaning.
Acts 22:16. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. This means that both the baptism and the washing of sins were done calling on the name of the Lord. It is not that baptism will wash away the sins of Paul.
This is the same as in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED.
Rom.10:13 For whoever CALLS on the NAME of the Lord shall be SAVED.

Peter said these words in no particular order, yet he understood what he meant. But I said that to me, his words were not correlative with what he said before and after. Peter's heartbeat was for men to believe in Christ and not necessarily how he put these words.

Did Peter say it the right way and were his words correlative with what he said before and after?
He said this before that in Acts 2:38:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
And he said this afterwards:
Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOOTED OUT...

Finally, Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized... This shows that they believed before they were baptized. And I said that believing entails one's sins being blotted out or washed away, before baptism which visibly shows what has happened inwardly .

Goshen360:
Did Peter that said Acts 2:38 baptize (in water) BEFORE his sins were remitted\forgiven?

Goshen360:
Acts 2:38 did not say such, you're the one saying it to mean WATER....there's no such as water there (if that's what you meant anyway). You are baptized IN or INTO Christ is what it is. Romans 6:3 & Galatians 3:27 explains that verse. There're no stand-alone scriptures my brother. Baptism occurred in various forms in scriptures but not sprinkling.

esere826:
.
.

Fortunately for me, I am not a hell doctrine expert
at least not yet, so I cant answer this

I'm gonna deviate a little into a wider concept

I'll first say this, I have gently tried to encourage Olaadegbu and Frosbel who happen to be bible scholars to help research and bring to the fore discussion on what SAVE meant during bible times and the early days of the church .not what we presently understand it as which is being saved from hell.

By present beliefs on the concept of SAVE suggests that folks who never heard of Christ whether they did good or not might have been saved at one point or another. This is of course outside the concept of the doctrine of hell which I know little about.

I believe that when Adam would have used the word SAVE, he probably wasnt thinking of hell
I also believe that when many in the old testament times talked about save, they had something else in mind

esere826:
still trying my best to conform within your line of argument
then my rough answer would be yes,
he was 'saved' twice or rather washed from sin twice
1st when he believed and 2nd when he was baptised
remember that this closely tallies with your explanation that after believe, if there is no oppurtunity for water baptism, then God accepts you until such a time water is available.
I would then extend it to mean that once water is available for baptism, your sins come back patiently waiting to be washed away a second time


however, if I am to approach it from my own belief system, I have two theories,
one which I'd explain like this:

Paul believed that Jesus was indeed Christ after his Saulish encounter .. no sin was washed here
Ananias then lead him to accept Christ as his master
this acceptance was baptism into Christ which Paul outwardly demonstrated or connected to by being baptised in water and calling on Christ to be his master
it was the acceptance of Christ's lordship that washed away his sins and made him whole
it so happened that the baptism by water happened almost same time as Paul's acceptance of Christ's lordship hence it appears to be that the water is what washed away his sins

I think this also confused Peter, because he had always thought that water baptism was the only sign of acceptance
so when he was preaching to the gentiles and they believed, accepted Christ and the Holy Spirit descended on them with them barely saying anything
he was awe struck and just went ahead to baptise them without other rituals which he might have requested they perform before baptism

Barnabaseloka:
Water baptism is for ONLY those-child or adult- who acknowledges that he is a sinner, repents from his sins and believes in Jesus Christ. it a PERSONAL decision that one takes for himself and not by parents or friends or relatives.
When I say 'child' I mean those that can discern good and evil. Children also believe and accept Jesus at their tender ages so long as they understand what 'repentance' and 'forsaking of sins' are all about.

The 'all people' you quoted in Joel talks about 'all believers' in Christ. Those who have not believed in Christ do not have God's Spirit in them, so they are exempted from the words 'all people.' Yet God's Spirit has come to the world and will live in anyone who believes in Jesus.

MuttleyLaff:
italo expects the Eskimo in Russia Siberia or Alaska Arctic to perform water baptism
He expects the Arab in Sahara Desert or Kalahari Desert to perform water baptism

John 4:23-24
²³But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.
²⁴For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Ritual washings with physical or literal water is having old-fashioned values or sticking to old ways, Law
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire is having stronger or powerful values, switching to new ways, Grace

Barnabaseloka:
I am not averting your questions. I have to lay foundation first so that my answers will not be contradictory to the scriptures.
Baptism entails repentance in the sense that one must 'repent' before one is 'baptized'. At the point of repentance, the person becomes washed with the blood of Jesus and becomes a new person. This qualifies him to be called a child of God. Know that all these things happen inside the person (spiritually). The person now goes for water baptism to demostrate outwardly that which has happened inwardly. Remember that the 'spiritual' preceeds the 'physical'. So it is not at the point of baptism (physically) that one becoimes saved, but when one repents, and believes in Jesus Christ (spiritually).

Peter was right in what he said. To Peter, he understood what he had said, but to me, his words were not correlative. The word 'repent' has taken care of remission of sins and not baptism. He must have said a lot of words to PERSUADE them to believe (vs 40).

The same Peter before the incident quoted Joel in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. And after the incident Peter also said in Acts 3:19 REPENT therefore and be CONVERTED, that your sins may be BLOTTED OUT (taken away, wiped away), so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. Here Peter did not mention baptism before one's sins are wiped away or before one is saved.

So I will not say that Peter was wrong b/c only Peter understood the words he tried to use to persuade the people. . When we read it literally, it won't give us proper understanding and as such contradicts other scriptural passages. This is why we balance it with other passages in the Scriptures. No two scriptures contradict themselves. Rather all scriptures explain one another. Any misinterpretation is from the inability of humans to strike a balance b/w one passage and another.

MuttleyLaff:
Are you really not familiar or conversant with allegories for the word of God and Spirit of God that refreshes and keeps one alive?
Was it a case of the eight immersed in water that saved them
Or was it a case of they immersed themselves in the the word of God and Spirit of God which saved them?

MuttleyLaff:
God is not a respecter of persons
Anybody regardless of sex, age or gender can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Acts 2:17
In the last days,' God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams

MuttleyLaff:
There is no need for tithing but people still tithe dont they

MuttleyLaff:
Of course Jesus mentioned "water" and "spirit" but tell us was the "water" literal immersion water.
In that verse, was it physical baptism water? Of course not, it isnt

MuttleyLaff:
Because whenever baptism is mentioned you automatically jump to conclusion and presume it is water baptism, when it actually isnt.

MuttleyLaff:
Ah-ha, there you are.
kei444 knows what am on about that is why he is shy of addressing what he wrote concerning John 3:5 which I confronted him about

I presented the same verse to you, in one of those six itemised quetions so that all could see but you too baulked off John 3:5

Now you're asking why, if you really want to know why and if you have any appreciation for Greek you might look up the Greek word "huetos" used for water in John 3:5 and tell all, what kind of water (i.e. baptism water or not) did Jesus mention in John 3:5?

Whilst at it, also inform all interested, what that water in John 3:5 symbolises

Barnabaseloka:
There is no one who has believed that will not want to go through water baptism. Some of them might not have understood its significance. When they do, they will surely go for it.

Barnabaseloka:
Those that BELIEVED but were NOT BAPTIZED:
Acts 2:47 praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were SAVED.
Acts 4:4 However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
Acts 5:14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number BELIEVED and turned to the Lord.
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life BELIEVED.
Acts 14:1 Now it happened in Iconium that they went together to the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke that a great multitude both of the Jews and of the Greeks BELIEVED.
Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded, and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, JOINED Paul and Silas.
12. Therefore many of them BELIEVED, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as the men.
34. However, some men joined him and BELIEVED, among them Dionysius, the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. And so on.

Barnabaseloka:
Those that believed and were baptised:
Acts 2:41 Then those who gladly RECEIVED the word were BAPTIZED..
Acts 8:12-13
12. But when they BELIEVED Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were BAPTIZED.
13. Then Simon himself also BELIEVED; and when he was BAPTIZED, continued with PHILIP..
37.... And he answered and said, I BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Son of God
38. ..... And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he BAPTIZED him.
Acts 9:18.... And he arose and was BAPTIZED.
Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of Lord... And so on.
Not everyone that BELIEVED was BAPTIZED.

Note: Rom.10:9 that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you SHALL BE SAVED.

Barnabaseloka:
Those that died before jesus paid the price for the sins of the world will be judged by their conscience. But after His death and resurrection, God puts anyone right with Himself through his/her faith in Christ Jesus ONLY.

esere826:
@italo

I just now read an earlier post you wrote which answers the question I raised above^^
I don't completely agree with you, but accept that you are have the rights to your beliefs

My belief is that at the point you accept Jesus, you are given a new life (baptised into Christ)
I believe that acceptance is primarily in the heart, but is commonly intertwined with various kinds of physical demonstrations such as

(1) water baptism (whether by immersion or sprinkling),
(2) confession with your mouth or
(3) other symbolisms (for example, if one is dumb, muttering or shedding tears might be that conscious acceptance link into the new birth)