₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight: There is: the very maxim under discussion demonstrates that fact.

Deep Sight: You'd better be wary of ending up with the obsessive bitterness that some posters on this forum, such as Viaro, ended up having against me. These are open debates: getting all sensitive, obsessive, personal and bitter will do you no good.

Funny post though.

plaetton: We can use use deductive and inductive reasoning to arrive at any pre-determined conclusions that we wish to.

Deep Sight: No we cannot.
. . .
This does not mean that if we had applied the proper logic consistently and correctly, we would not have arrived at the truth.

Deep Sight: I have spent the better part of my life since I was 12 years or so reflecting on them to the point of distraction. The same thirst took me through a labyrinth of religions and philosophies, . . .

What is Theoretical Cosmology?

Theoretical cosmologists study the evolution and composition of the universe as a system, constructing theories and confronting them with experiments and observations. Many of the quantities of interest are average properties; consequently, theoretical cosmology deals to a large extent with statistical predictions and measurements. In recent years, advances in measurements and computational techniques have brought us to the brink of quantifying precisely these fundamental properties.

What is known?
There are some fundamental things about our universe which we do know with high confidence:

Our universe is approximately homogeneous (the same at all points in space) and isotropic (the same in all directions in space) on large scales and at early times.
Our universe is expanding (discovered by Hubble in the 1920's).
Space is flat on the average.
The mass energy in the universe is approximately 1/4 matter and 3/4 "dark energy", less than 1/5 of the matter is baryonic, the rest is "dark matter" (see figure on right).
The universe is approximately homogeneous and isotropic on large scales or at early times.
The distribution of matter in the universe today is statistically consistent with growth from a close to scale invariant set of perturbations at an early time under the influence of gravity.


What is under study?
Specifics of this emerging paradigm are still under intense investigation. These include:

Exactly how fast is the universe expanding? In other words, what is the Hubble constant, H0?
Exactly how much matter is there in the universe? What is it? There is strong evidence for dark matter implied by, for example, the motions of astronomical objects. Is this matter some exotic particle from high energy physics or a quantum black hole or something more prosaic? What is this dark matter made of?
Is the dark energy a (cosmological constant), i.e. an ambient 'vacuum' energy density in the universe? Or is it not a cosmological constant but something varying? How would particle theory produce this? And if it is not a constant, how will it evolve (and thus what is the ultimate fate of the universe - will it expand forever or recollapse in a ``big crunch'')?
Why was the universe approximately homogeneous and isotropic at early times? Did inflation occur?
How did departures from this purely homogeneous and isotropic universe arise? What were the seeds for the formation of structure (stars, galaxies, clusters of galaxies)?

These various questions fall into the areas of cosmological parameter estimation (Hubble constant, matter density, dark energy density, etc.), dark matter searches, early universe model building (inflationary theory, theories of dark energy, string cosmology).

http://astro.berkeley.edu/~jcohn/tcosmo.html

ad hoc hypothesis

An ad hoc hypothesis is one created to explain away facts that seem to refute one’s belief or theory. Ad hoc hypotheses are common in paranormal research and in the work of pseudoscientists.
http://skepdic.com/adhoc.html

In science and philosophy, an ad hoc hypothesis is a hypothesis added to a theory in order to save it from being falsified. Ad hoc hypothesizing is compensating for anomalies not anticipated by the theory in its unmodified form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesizing

Examine your Premises

Another type of premise error occurs when one or more premises is an unwarranted assumption. The premise may or may not be true, but it has not been established sufficiently to serve as a premise for an argument. Identifying all the assumptions upon which an argument is dependent is often the most critical step in analyzing an argument. Frequently, different conclusions are arrived at because of differing assumptions.

Often people will choose the assumptions that best fit the conclusion they prefer. In fact, psychological experiments show that most people start with conclusions they desire, then reverse engineer arguments to support them – a process called rationalization.
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

If someone wants to believe in leprechauns, they can avoid ever being proven wrong by using ad hoc hypotheses (e.g. by adding "they are invisible", then "their motives are complex", and so on)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesizing#cite_ref-Stanovich2007_0-0

Logicbwoy: Yes, stockholm syndrome explains it all. Because christianity does some charity and has some schools, it is now seen as a good religion. Christianity and islam have raped our country.

Mississippi Church Refuses to Marry Black Couple

They had booked their wedding far in advance. The invitations had been sent, the programs printed. But one day before Charles and Te'Andrea Wilson were to be married at the Mississippi church they frequented, they said a pastor told them they would have to find another venue -- because they were black.

There has never been a black wedding at the First Baptist Church in Crystal Springs, Miss., since its founding in 1883. According to Pastor Stan Weatherford, some church members objected so strongly to breaking that precedent, they threatened to oust him from his pastorship.

Rather than risk his job, Weatherford, who is white, said he decided to marry the pair at a black church down the road.

"My 9-year-old was going to the church with us. How would you say to your 9-year-old daughter, 'We cannot get married here because, guess what sweetie, we're black,'" Charles Wilson told ABC's affiliate WAPT-TV.

Outrage over the wedding's forced relocation swept the Jackson suburb of about 5,000 into a media firestorm.

The vast majority of Crystal Springs residents, blacks and whites alike, were "blown away" by the church's decision, said Theresa Norwood, 48, who was born in Crystal Springs and has lived there her entire life.

Norwood said she believes Weatherford should have married the Wilsons regardless of the risk to his job.

"That church was their home," she said. "What would Jesus have done? He would have married them, without a doubt, because it's the right thing to do. We're all God's children."

While the Wilsons were not members of the church, they often attended services there, and Te'Andrea's uncle is an employee of the church, and her father is a member. Charles Wilson told WAPT that the couple had planned to join as members after their wedding, which was held July 20.

Weatherford told WLBT-TV in Jackson that he would have liked to marry the couple as planned, but he decided to perform the ceremony elsewhere as a compromise to ensure that the Wilsons could be married while "addressing a need within our congregation."

Norwood, who is black, said her nephew came to worship at First Baptist Church while he was temporarily living with her, having been evacuated from New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The church "made him feel at home," she said, but now she wonders whether he would return there when he visits Crystal Springs.

The church is now holding internal meetings to figure out how it should respond to future requests by black couples to be married there, Weatherford told WLBT-TV.

For her part, though, Norwood, who is dating a white man, said that if she and her boyfriend decide to get married, they will likely look for a different venue.

http://news.yahoo.com/mississppi-church-refuses-marry-black-couple-205218322--abc-news-topstories.html

[size=14pt]Stephen Hawking tells Google ‘philosophy is dead’[/size]

Stephen Hawking, the renowned physicist, has declared that “Philosophy is dead”.

Speaking to Google’s Zeitgeist Conference in Hertfordshire, the author of 'A Brief History of Time' said that fundamental questions about the nature of the universe could not be resolved without hard data such as that currently being derived from the Large Hadron Collider and space research. “Most of us don't worry about these questions most of the time. But almost all of us must sometimes wonder: Why are we here? Where do we come from? Traditionally, these are questions for philosophy, but philosophy is dead,” he said. “Philosophers have not kept up with modern developments in science. Particularly physics.”

Prof Hawking went on to claim that “Scientists have become the bearers of the torch of discovery in our quest for knowledge.” He said new theories “lead us to a new and very different picture of the universe and our place in it”.

In a 40-minute speech, Prof Hawking said that the new “M Theory” of the universe was the “unified theory Einstein was hoping to find”. He compared the idea to the computer programme Google Earth, saying it was a “map” of theories, but added that a new, bigger Hadron Collider the size of the Milky Way was needed to collect more data to prove it.

“This technology is some way off,” he said, “and I don't think even Google could afford to build it.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8520033/Stephen-Hawking-tells-Google-philosophy-is-dead.html

Lord Babs: i'm telling you, the guy is so dogmatic that he couldn't even pick the fragments of the argument. As the yoruba adage goes: eni ti ko doko baba elomiran ri, a se pe oko baba re lo ju.

Deep Sight: I have spent the better part of my life since I was 12 years or so reflecting on them to the point of distraction. The same thirst took me through a labyrinth of religions and philosophies, and its been a long road - which never ends, of course but I can say with confidence I have found my conviction in the nature of what this reality is and I am entirely at home with it.

Deep Sight: Yes, that's because as humans we often arrive at wrong conclusions based on falsehoods and errors. This does not mean that if we had applied the proper logic consistently and correctly, we would not have arrived at the truth.

Deep Sight: He says that if God is something, then applying the nothing from nothing principle, God must come from something. God is not said to begin - because it is evident within the nothingness equation [0 + 0 = 0], that for anything to exist in reality [the right side of the equation], some quantity must permanently exist on the left side of the equation.

Since things exist, and cannot sprout from nothingness, then there is a permanent somethingness - simple.

Someday humans will create a universe.

They asked him to perform same miracle on a police woman interrogating him for her pants to be removed by the Holy Spirit,but he kept quiet

COULD the Holy Spirit have removed the pants and skirt of a lady as claimed by a pastor while praying for her?


The pastor who was still being investigated by the State Criminal Investigation Department (SCID) of the Oyo State Police Command, over allegation of rape, told his interrogators that he only watched the lady’s pants and skirt being removed by the Holy Spirit while he prayed for her.

The minister, Pastor J. Odesola of the Christ Rock Apostolic Church, Agbala Imole, Olodo, Ibadan, allegedly had carnal knowledge of a 17-year-old Unified Tertiary Matriculation Examination (UTME) candidate on Thursday, 15 April, 2010, on the pretext that he was performing deliverance for her.

The lady (names withheld), told Sunday Tribune that on Monday, 12 April, 2010 at 2 p.m, she had gone to see Pastor Odesola for prayer over a dream her mother had concerning the UTME she was to sit for on Saturday, 17 April, 2010.

She continued: “My mother advised me to see the pastor for prayers so that I won’t have any problem with the exam.

“He told me it was the spirit that has been tormenting my parents that was also tormenting me. He called it the spirit of disappointment.

“The pastor told me to come for a programme on Wednesday, 14 April, 2010 tagged Atamatase and also for a special prayer the next day (Thursday 15 April, 2010) to cast away the evil spirit from me.

“On that Thursday, as I arrived the church at 7.30 p.m, Pastor Odesola instructed me to stay in the church because some visitors were with him in the vestry.

“At 8 p.m, he asked me to come into the vestry. He asked if I was ready for the prayer and I said yes. He told me to stand up, placed one hand on my head and the second hand on my chest.

“He murmured some words into my ear and blew air on my face, commanding the evil spirit to come out of me.

“May be I slept off at that moment, I can’t remember. I just found myself on the floor when I woke up, no strength was left in me. He pushed my blouse up and placed a Bible on my tommy.”

“He was now praying, quoting Bible verses. After that, he fondled my navel, blew air on my face again. He touched my forehead. I did not react. He touched my chest and placed his hand on my tommy; he tickled me at my lower abdomen, then waited to know my reaction.

“He got up, moved about the room, which was not properly illuminated, casting out demons. At this point, I slept off again. When I woke up, I noticed my pant and skirt had been removed. The pastor was not in the room.

“Few minutes after, Pastor Odesola came in, he climbed over me. I tried to push him away but I was too weak. He asked if I don’t want to be delivered.

“I slept off again, but when I woke up I noticed his finger was in my private part. He fondled my breast. I struggled to remove it but he charged at me saying I should relax, that he was casting out the demons in me. He now said: “Jesu Oluwa wa, adura re tigba.”

“He held me to himself, forced me to sit down because I was still on the floor. He took a torch, showed me fluid on the ground under my legs. He said it was urine I passed out during the deliverance prayer. He then said: “pelu eleyi to jade nisisiyi, isegun tide.”( with this out of you, your prayer has been answered.)

“Pastor Odesola told me not to feel disturbed, assuring me that I will pass the UTME. He returned my She said further: “I had to call my aunty because I was so disturbed. I could not revise for the exam again. Whenever I opened my book, what I saw was the picture of the man and the scene.

“That was how my parents knew what happened. My parents were enraged, my mummy collapsed two times over it because everybody blamed her for asking me to go and see the pastor.”

The matter was reported at the Area Command Office, Testing Ground and the pastor was picked by the police on Wednesday, 21 April, 2010.

During interrogation, he was asked if he had seen the lady’s unclothedness and he said, “yes.”

But when the police demanded to know who removed the lady’s pants, Pastor Odesola said it was the Holy Spirit. They asked him to perform same miracle on a police woman interrogating him for her pants to be removed by the Holy Spirit, but he kept quiet.

The parents of the girl took her for medical examination and the report indicated that the girl had bruises on her private part. The girl also claimed to have lost her virginity in the process.

However, the members of the pastor’s church, who came to see the pastor at the police station, defended their pastor who they called “Daddy.” They said their “Daddy” was not that kind of person. They even accused the lady of framing the story.

Pastor Odesola, who was on Friday, 23 April, 2010 moved to the SCID, Iyaganku, Ibadan said he neither fondled the girl’s breasts nor thrust his fingers in her private part.

Whereas he denied having sexing with her, he admitted that he placed his hand on her private part and on her breast while praying for her.

Meanwhile, the Federation of International Women Lawyers (FIDA), Oyo State chapter has declared its interest in the case.

Speaking with Sunday Tribune, the state treasurer, Mrs. Dupe Awosemusi, said FIDA was actually concerned about the girl’s life.“We don’t know what the pastor has taken from her since she was not conscious in the course of the session,”FIDA said.

“We are also bothered about the security of life of the girl. When you talk of Christendom, this man, being a pastor, is a slap on the body of Christ.

“Things like this should not be covered up. There are so many cases of rape and child abuse nowadays. It was either the suspects were looking for money or spiritual power,”she stated.

The Oyo State Police Public Relations Officer (PPRO), DSP Olabisi Okuwobi, confirmed the story, saying the pastor would appear in court after investigation.
http://www.tribune.com.ng/sun/index.php/features/918-holy-spirit-removed-her-pants-says-pastor-accused-of-having-sex-with-student-inside-the-church

[size=14pt]B-i-z-a-r-r-e!! Church where people strip n[i]a[/i]ked[/size]
By Albert Akpor

WHEN in 2006, the story of the sacrilegious activities of one Emeka Ezeugo alias ‘Reverend King’ of the Christ Praying Assembly (CPA) located somewhere on Ajao estate, Lagos hit the town, it sounded more fictional than factual until those who actually tasted the bitter pills of the self~ acclaimed `Jesus of our time` came out in their numbers to testify to his ungodly activities.

His trials and subsequent conviction by a Lagos high court however put paid to the fact that most Pentecostal churches today, are far from preaching and practising the gospel as contained in the Holy Bible.
Curiously, while the hazy dust razed in the Reverend King saga is yet to settle in the eyes of many, a similar bizarre activities seemed to be going on in another Lagos church again.

The church, christened Christian Bible Ministry (CBM), is located in an obscure area on Dunamis Street behind Apakun Saw Mill, along Murtala Mohammed Airport Road, Mafoluku, Oshodi, not too far from Reverend King's CPA in such manner that it is ordinarily difficult to know if there was any building in that area.

There is no banner nor signboard as is common with most churches today to depict that a church is located in there. Reports said the church, which started over 20 years ago in a village in Imo State and was founded by one Reverend Barnabas who had since been allegedly edged out by other pastors who served under him for his alleged hardline stand and is now fully enmeshed in absurdities.

Saturday Vanguard scooped that one Pastor Emeka Okafor who succeeded Reverend Barnabas died shortly afterwards following an alleged curse laid on him by the said aggrieved Reverend Barnabas.

However, a twist was said to have been introduced into doctrines of the church after the wife of the late Pastor Emeka, Prophetess Felicia Okafor, formed a separate ministry under the same church and named it Ministry of Sacrifice.

This, she did, after she reportedly returned from a fasting and praying exercise on an unnamed mountain of God. The Ministry which underwent metamorphosis from the original ˜Sacrifice to ˜Separation and then ˜Raising the Dead was for specific members of the church who were ready to sacrifice all they had, including separating from their respective spouses.

Smarting from the mountain of God, the prophetess was said to have called members of her ministry to tell them that God revealed to her that what could not be achieved by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden would be fulfilled in her.

She was reported to have told the congregation that members were now brothers and sisters and therefore, there was nothing to hide from each other.

To buttress her claims, she allegedly stripped herself naked before the congregation and instructed each member to follow suit. The implication was that all of them are now one. In addition, a married female member from that day on was barred from having anything to do with her husband sexually. She is subsequently assigned to a brother in the Ministry.

If perceived to be having sexual relationship with her legitimate husband, she would be termed to have committed adultery. The punishment is 14 strokes of an armoured cable and grinded pepper in her private part. Same thing goes with male members.

A sister named Chinyere was reportedly beaten to pulp and candle stick inserted into her private part allegedly on the instruction of the Prophetess for reportedly committing fornication with a male member of the church. She left the church without hesitation. Another sister, Mrs Stella Goodnews whose husband is a Pastor in the church also suffered similar fate.

She was allegedly stripped naked as is the custom, flogged severally and grinded pepper poured into her private part for confessing that she fornicated with her husband.

After her ordeal, she reportedly suffered two miscarriages and a doctor later confirmed that she may not be able to bear children any longer as she had developed inflamation in the womb.

Seven members of the church who left on discovering the unethical practice there were said to have died under mysterious circumstances. However, the bubble there, here the bubble burst recently after a Pastor in the church, Friday Oforegbu, could no longer withstand the excruciating pains of 17 strokes of the armoured cable and peppery substance rubbed on his body that he had to ran to the X-Squad at the State Criminal Investigation Department (SCID), Panti, for refuge.

Sources said Pastor Oforegbus grievances was further aggravated after his wife, Jocintha, was assigned to one brother Paul, which meant he could no longer relate with his wife as a husband. His report, therefore, prompted detectives who stormed the church and got its key members, including the General Overseer, Pastor Vincent Uzuegbu arrested for questioning.

But when Saturday Vanguard was able to locate the church on Sunday August 30, 2009 at about 4.30pm after a painstaking search and met Pastor Uzuegbu, he described the allegations as lies, greed and quest for position. The fair complexioned well built and handsome Pastor who was leaning close to his Hummer Jeep which has its plate number customised and marked Okenna 1(meaning strong father or Share from God the Father in Igbo translation), exclaimed and said, My brother, God bless you for coming to know the truth.

I know those who gave you the story because they are those we sent away from this church because of their promiscuity. All they have told you are lies borne out of greed and unguided ambition for position.
Yes, some of the questions you asked are true. But most are fabricated. Perhaps, you may want me to take you to the history of the church.

The Christian Bible Mission is an old church which started in a village in Imo State about 29 years ago. I came to join them some 15 years ago when the church was in a primary school in Amukoko in Lagos. The original founder was Reverend Barnabas Iwundu who left in the face of glaring irreconcilable differences with key members.

It was after he left that Pastor Emeka Okafor and his wife, Prophetess Felicia took over the mantle of leadership of the church. But we still relate with Reverend Barnabas today as the founder of the church.

Even when we wanted to register the church, we approached him three times to tell him about the need to get the church registered but he drove us out of his house.

But at the Corporate Affairs Commission, and of course,on certificate of registration, his name is there as one of the board of trustees. To tell you the truth, Reverend Barnabas left the church when it was discovered that he was not practising what he preached. The church headquarters was in Ogba under him but go there today, it has collapsed because he was fornicating with female members.

But when Reverend Barnabas was called on a GSM number provided, a little girl's voice was heard and she said, My daddy is not around now, please call back around 8.00pm. However, when the line was called back, it was switched off.
Continuing, Pastor Uzuegbu said, Prophetess Felicia is one woman of God that is so blessed and filled with the holy spirit of God. She was the one that founded the ˜Ministry of Sacrifice, a praying ministry in the church. What the ministry stands for is simple: detaching oneself from earthly things.

Raising the dead ministry which they also told you also means resurrecting members from sins, it does not mean physically raising a dead person. We do not raise dead persons here.

The fact that brothers are assigned to sisters or vice versa, it also means that one person is acting as a watch dog to the other. My brother, the ministry of sacrifice is such a strong one so much so that many members clamour to join. If Pastor Friday is saying that he was flogged that is why he left, that means he has forgotten that he was the Provost Marshal of the church.

He was responsible for flogging erring members. In fact, when Pastor Austin Okocha confessed that he lust after a lady who exposed half of her breasts while on alms begging, it was Pastor Friday Oforegbu who flogged him before the congregation.

So, when Sister Hope confessed that she was fornicating with Pastor Friday, there was no option than to visit the corporal punishment on him too.

It is the tradition! It may also interest you that Pastor Friday embezzled the church money and as I speak with you now, he still has a case with the Satellite Town Police Station.

The Sister Stella you are talking about, she came here with the disease, and I know the personal sacrifices I played to see that she was let off the grip of the disease. I prayed and prayed and became tired and resolved to seek orthodox medicine advice.

She has even infested her husband with the venereal disease. That we do something immoral here is like giving a dog a bad name in order to hang it.

If they tell you that we beg for alms, that is correct because we cannot go stealing. We suffered to get this building erected.

There is nowhere we did not go for financial assistance to no avail. It was through personal efforts and sacrifices that we are where we are today.

So, if they say we strip naked and all that, I leave them to God to judge. The case is before the police and I am sure the truth will prevail.

At the SCID Panti, the Officer- in- Charge (OC), Deputy Commissioner of Police (DCP) Solomon Arase said the matter was still with his X-Squad Department, I have asked the IPO to do a thorough investigation of the matter. The allegations raised are very sensitive. The police will not allow itself to be used to achieve a selfish end. But if the allegations come out true, then the law will take its due course.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2009/09/b-i-z-a-r-r-e-church-where-people-strip-n[i]a[/i]ked/

Logicbwoy: Yes, it was a mistake on my part. Anony really gets on my nerves. We are from the same place and so I feel close to him. Sad that he is a slave to a religion that enslaved his forefathers. Anony comes from a place where the first Europeans came to naija

Logicbwoy: Atheism = god doesnt exist.

Evil Brain: They are claiming that he's all around us and that he heals people and give answers requests and that he tells TB Joshua stuff all the time.

musKeeto: wrong...

Sin is one of the main causes of illness

In the end of the book of Deuteronomy, God gave the people of Israel a list of blessings and curses, depending if they listened or not to His Commandment and He says this:

If you are not careful to observe all the words of this law which are written in this book, to fear this honored and awesome name, the LORD your God, then the LORD will bring extraordinary plagues on you and your descendants, even severe and lasting plagues, and miserable and chronic sicknesses. He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they will cling to you. Also every sickness and every plague which, not written in the book of this law, the LORD will bring on you until you are destroyed. Then you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, because you did not obey the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 28:58-62)(NASB)

But not all diseases are the result of our personal sin.

The parents’ sins also bring disease and death

Jeroboam was an evil emperor who led the 10 tribes of Israel into an inconceivable idolatry. When Abijah, his son, fell ill he sent his wife to the prophet Ahijah to ask him about the disease and whether the child would recover. Although he instructed his wife not to tell who she was, when she crossed the threshold, the prophet told her who she was and reminded her of the serious sins of her husband. Then, he told her the following things regarding their child’s disease:

Now you, arise, go to your house. When your feet enter the city the child will die. All Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he alone of Jeroboam’s family will come to the grave, because in him something good was found toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam. (1 Kings 14:12-13)(NASB)

The sickness and death of the child was the result of his father’s sin, but also a manifestation of God’s love which had allowed him to depart this life before he learned to do all the harm done by his father, the child died when in him something good was found toward God.

http://moldovacrestina.net/english/doctrine/what-does-the-bible-say-about-the-cause-of-illnesses/

Kay 17: Greater faith in the Big Ban.g? Trying to drag everything into the abyss of Faith?!

Earth has been existing for millions of years, the universe has existed for over a billion years and yet Jesus just got to the scene 2000 yrs ago and is claiming to create all. How fantastic. Besides a very liberal interpretation of the Bible will struggle to reach such conclusion.

davidylan: If the basis for morality is left to the individual then why do you put a child s[i]e[/i]x offender in prison? Afterall his own standards for morality might just include underage s[i]e[/i]x no?

Judges 6:36-40

King James Version (KJV)

36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,

37 Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.

38 And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

39 And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.

40 And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

PhysicsQED: We see containment everywhere in our universe so we assume everything has to be contained, but I don't see why that's the case at all.

PhysicsQED: I don't see how it's "self-evident" that a physical thing cannot be self-existent. It just seems to be the case that in our universe energy creation is not violated in places where the regular laws of physics hold true.

PhysicsQED: First, there's nothing I've posted that has really objected to things just existing from nothing (after all, basically every atheist (which I am not) scientist believes in something existing independently of an external or previous cause if they believe in the Big B.ang). Rather, I was pointing out that your arguments earlier were unconvincing because of their circular or tautological character and also pointing out that existence doesn't necessarily have to be. There can be nothingness.

Second, this argument seems to be based on the premise that the singularity - not an ordinary physical object by the way - would be subject to the same constraints at all times as ordinary objects, which may or may not be the case.

An interesting incidental fact is that the big b.ang theory was proposed by a Belgian Catholic priest and physicist, Georges Lemaitre, and he saw it as a vindication of the idea that the universe was created which is popular with some religions. Then of course, being a Catholic, he made the reasonable assumption that anything that is created has a Creator and does not self-create - but that assumption is of course, influenced by thinking based on our current experience/reality in this universe after the fact. We don't know under what exact conditions the ordinary laws of physics can be bypassed or what would make something self-create.

Scientists do, in my opinion, subscribe to the classic "prime mover" or "first cause" argument of philosophers and theologians, just usually (with the exception of people like Lemaitre) not in the way that religious people would like since they don't go further than can be proven and assert the existence of a person-like entity or God that is the prime mover.

For more on the prime mover/first cause/self-existence problem, this wikipedia page actually gives a pretty good summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument#Objections_and_counterarguments

PhysicsQED: I think the problem here is that you repeatedly make certain assumptions/assertions, and insist upon their actual correspondence to reality without strong justifications.

fellis: This is strange. You are not supposed to believe in anything supernatural.
Maybe this is the reason why you're scared.

davidylan: perhaps you're just afraid of evolutionary events that may take place in the dark?

mazaje: Sure, the universe could be god for whom ever wishes to give it that label. . .My position is if the universe has a creator or creators no body know what it is or what they are, every body is just speculating, the hypothesis that religions proffer of the creator or creators of the universe if anything like that exist deserving worship, answering prayers, speaking the human language, interacting with them, having a chosen men, or a right religion is all FALSE and pure DELUSION. . . .All religions and the gods they worship are man made, 5000 years ago in ancient egypt Ra was the only god, Jesus god and allah god as we now know them came into existence 2000 and 1400 years old respectively, before then gods like zeus, Amun etc were the true gods to various people depending on their location. . .

I do not care about the origin of life because nobody knows that for sure, all the hypothesis and speculations out there do not have substantial evidence to back them up as such I reject all of them. . . Some are more valid plausible than others though. . .Some religious creation myth make more sense than others. . .But all are myths and that's all they are. . .

Deep Sight: @ Pastor AIO, great rally u had there with Kag. I wonder is KAG is aware of the existence of chess playing robots and their ability to respond to complex strategic scenarios with jaw dropping intelligence. Such robots are neither self aware or conscious, not to speak of possessing knowing sentience.

I'll be back.

Deep Sight: We play chess, and they defeat me everytime.

Martian: You, outwit who? Maybe the people around you and the siblings you mesmerize with your word play who can't quite tell you how ridiculous your ideas are because they hold similar inanities as worldviews. .

Deep Sight: I have mentioned in passing a number of times that my siblings are pentecostal and that i do debate with them, but this is no reason for you to begin to take swipes at people you do not know or even interact with in any form. That's very unsporting and most ungentlemanly. Thank you very much.

Martian: Tell that crap to your siblings. Their beliefs include things like your ideas of " non physical" things, so they should be a credulous audience for you. They are Pentecostals after all.

frosbel: Me thinks ,just like you do, that people can choose perverse life styles and at the same time provide inventions that are of benefit to man , materially speaking.

The chances of you existing:

If you go back 10 generations (250 years) the chance of you being born at all is at most 1 divided by 6 x 10100 or
1 in 60000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000.
In gambling, even a chance of 1 to 100 is not worth a gamble.
Are you ever lucky to be alive!!

If you go back 1 million years or 40 000 generations (each generation is considered 25 years), your chance of being born is at most 1 in 1.8 x 10403167 or
18 with 403,166 zeros after the 1.

In other words your chances of existing is essentially zilch, even if we were considering this possibility only a short 250 years ago.
Right now you do exist, so the actual chance is 100%, but the predicted likelihood in the past of you being born would be essentially zero.

The calculations of these numbers (calculations shown below) tend to overestimate your chances of being.
They only include numbers based on your father's contribution, his father's contribution, his father contribution, and so on. In other words the calculations are based only on the direct male line.
They do NOT include the following factors that would make the chances of your existence even less:
- your mother's contribution
- the men and women that died in war, famine, disease without or with fewer offspring-- in some generations 50% of humanity.
- the men and women that died from natural causes.
- children that died before reaching the age of reproduction.
- fetuses and fertilized eggs that died and were naturally aborted.

You are the result of many generations of survivors. One of the people that died prematurely could have been your Dad or your Dad's Dad and so on. Somehow, none of your forefathers died before passing on his genes to the next man in your lineage. Because of the deaths mentioned most human lineages died out, while luckily yours survived. Lo and behold, here you are!
Because of these deaths, your odds of existing were actually much less than the odds given below.

The Calculations:

As mentioned above, these calculations assume only your father, his father, his father, and so on. The number of spe.rm produced by your father is astronomical compared to the number of eggs produced by your mother, so this is a reasonable procedure to show how slight your existence chances were.
Also I am assuming that each separate reproductive generation consists of 25 years

Some background statistics based on the book "Spe.rm Wars" by Robin Baker, University of Manchester.
On average a man between puberty (I suggest age 15 y) and 30 years produces 300 million spe.rm/day (300,000,000).
On average a man between 30 y and 50 years produces 230 million spe.rm/day (230,000,000)
On average a man between 50 and 75 years produces 50 million spe.rm/day (50,000,000)

The last two spe.rm/day numbers were calculated as follows:
At age 50 years the average man produces 175 million/day -- so averaging 300 million/day and 175 million/day you get 230 million/day.
At age 70 years the average man produces 20 million/day -- so I could average 175 million and 20 million, but to be on the safe side I decreased it to 50 million/day (keeping my results on the conservative side -- I will round lower for the calculations that follow).
Each spe.rm has a unique set of DNA.
These spe.rm will appear in intercourse, masturbation, nocturnal emission. They all have to go somewhere.

On average 2 to 3 offspring survive that will reproduce. This average seems to be fairly constant in modern societies, agricultural societies and in hunter-gatherer societies. So, for all generations it hovers around 2 to 3 reproducing survivors. On average, 2 to 3 sperm will result in the fertilization of eggs that results in 2 or 3 reproducing individuals -- the rest of the spe.rm are doomed.

Kind of sperm:
An average man produces 3 kind of spe.rm:
(1) Killer Sperm constitute about 83% of all the spe.rm -- these are spe.rm that attack any sperm from another man that may be in the woman. These spe.rm carry a lethal dose of poison in their head, seek out foreign spe.rm and inject it with this poison, killing it. Apparently after a few injections the Killer Spe.rm has spent all it's energy and also dies.

(2) Blocker Spe.rm constitute about 16% of all the spe.rm -- these try to block entrances and storage places so that any spe.rm from another man cannot reach the woman's egg.

(3) Egg Getter Spe.rm constitute about1% of all the spe.rm -- these are the spe.rm that can possibly fertilize the woman's egg if they ever get there.

So 99% of sperm make war on other men's spe.rm to annihilate them so that they won't fertilize the woman's egg, and 1% have the potential to fertilize the woman's egg.

In our calculations we will only use the numbers for the Egg Getter Spe.rm.

The Actual numbers:
(A) The number of Egg Getter Spe.rm produced by an average man in his lifetime:

In the following calculations I will round off the numbers lower to be even more conservative.
(1) Between puberty (15 years old) and 30 years:
At a rate of 1% of 300,000,000 = 3,000,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day
15 years has 5475 days.
Therefore, on average a man will produce 5475 days x 3,000,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day = 1.6 x 1010 Egg Getter Spe.rm during this time (16,000,000,000).

(2) Between 30 years and 50 years:
At a rate of 1% of 230,000,000 = 2,300,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day
20 years has 7300 days.
Therefore, on average a man will produce 7300 days x 2,300,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day = 1.6 x 1010 Egg Getter Spe.rm during this time (16,000,000,000).

(3) Between 50 years and 75 years:
At a rate of 1% of 50,000,000 = 500,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day
25 years has 9125 days.
Therefore, on average a man will produce 9125 days x 500,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm/day = 4 x 109 Egg Getter Spe.rm during this time (4,000,000,000).

On average, in a man's lifetime he produces 16,000,000,000 + 16,000,000,000 + 4,000,000,000 = 36,000,000,000 Egg Getter Spe.rm for a possible 36,000,000,000 unique offspring (3.6 x 1010).

(B) Fraction of Egg Getter Spe.rm that result in offspring that will reproduce:

Since an average man will have 2 to 3 surviving offspring (let's take 3 to be on the conservative side) the fraction of all the Egg Getter Spe.rm that will result in another person is: 3 x 1 / 3.6 x 1010
or 1 / 1.2 x 1010
or 1 / 12,000,000,000.
Let's be even more conservative and take this fraction to be your probability of being instead of the probability of 3 survivors.
In other words of all the Egg Getter Spe.rm your father produces, the chances are that the spe.rm with your name on it that will actually become you is 1 to 12,000,000,000 -- not great odds!

If you take 2 generations. Your Dad and his Dad. The chances that your Dad's Egg Getter spe.rm will become you is 1 / 12,000,000,000.
The chances that your Dad's Dad's Egg Getter Spe.rm will become your Dad is the same, that is, 1 / 12,000,000,000.
Considering your Dad's Dad, the odds that "your spe.rm" will successfully produce you after 2 generations will be
1 /12,000,000,000 x 1 / 12,000,000,000 = 1 / 144,000,000,000,000,000,000
or 1 to 144,000,000,000,000,000,000
or 1 / 1.44 x 1020.

If you take 10 generations (10 generations x 25 years/ generation = 250 years) you must multiply 1 / 12,000,000,000
ten times, or (1 / 1.2 x 1010)10 = 1 / 6 x 10100
or 1 to 6 x 10100. This is the number given at the beginning of this page for 10 generations.

If you take 1 million years of evolution (actually one should use many millions of years, but to be conservative we will limit our calculation to 1 million years):
40,000 generations
(1 / 1.2 x 1010)40000 = 1 / 1.8 x 10403167 chance that you should exist. (a lot of wasted sperm, eh?)

This is mind boggling odds of 1 to 18 with 403,166 zero's after it. In other words your chances of being are essentially zero.

(C) Try to visualize these numbers:


The age of the universe since the Big Bang is 13.7 billion years.

In seconds: 13.7 x 109 year x 365 day/year x 24 h/day x 3600 seconds/hour = 4.32 x 1016 seconds
or 43,200,000,000,000,000 seconds is the age of the Universe -- a very, very long time!!

If 1 Egg Getter Spe.rm were produced every second of the lifetime of the universe then it would take:
6 x 10100 / 4.32 x 1016 = 1.4 x 10 89 universe lifetimes to definitely result in you becoming, that is, if you calculate only 10 generations back (250 years).
14 with 88 zeros after it of universe lifetimes -- essentially an infinite time!

If you go back 1 million years it would take 42 x 10403149 universe lifetimes to definitely result in you.
42 with 403,149 zeros after the 42 of it lifetimes of the Universe!

All these numbers err on the side of caution -- a lot of caution.

(D) Aren't You lucky?

If you consider almost any time in the past and try to calculate the probability of you coming into being, even 2 generations ago, your possible existence is so low that it's almost not worth thinking about.
Aren't you happy you're alive? ? ? Lucky YOU!

O. Hooge, BC, Canada.
http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/chances_of_you_existing.htm