₦airaland Forum

MikeCZAR:
Istanbul shipyards responded. I forgot their ship.

Yes responded to this earlier, its their ADA class corvette

agaugust:
SA is begging Russia to build your future nuclear reactors
.

Nigeria begged china to build OPVs

agaugust:
Your Boer white masters are invaders and immigrant armies from Europe, they invaded South Africa to kill, maim, r.ape, enslave, imprison, oppress, humiliate, rule, rob and cheat you blacks in your own ancestral fatherland forever and ever...amen !
.

Dude you are a fcking racist, period!BTW you can be glad that you are on the other side of the continent, because if you had to say those things about my race in my face, you will most likely get an Lee-Enfield up your a$$.

Henry120:
We have an 8 Billion dollars defence budget. Yours is 3 billion.

You do the maths.

Ok so the 8 billion includes weapon purches! ok ours is/was $40 billion when we bought all our jets,frigates and subs.

agaugust:
Mumu, my PDF file is manufacturers specifications fact sheet. Mumu
.

Nope!!

agaugust:
Nigeria is interested in ICBM and nuclear weapons from Korea and Iran
.

Its ok we have already built ICBMs and nuclear weapons in the 1980s

Henry120:
You've been caught telling "yourselves" lies.

The Valour Frigates are reported to have a defective combat suite.

@Augustine's post proves even more they are a big fat lame sitting duck.

His source was from 2007, all our Valours have been refitted since then, sources have been posted.

Henry120:
So after 15 years of signing Gripen contracts, you can't raise upto 18 pilots for a Fighter jet.

It's shameful really.

That post doesn't stipulate the numbers of navigators vice a vis the numbers of pilots trained. It is open to interpretation, the way anyone chooses.

Your Gripens are stored in the freezer, just like your A109's, you are too broke to do anything about them.

If we are broke i cant imagine how broke you guys must be.

Henry120:
Until you can prove you have more, you only got 8 qualified Gripen pilots.

We have bro, countless times.

agaugust:
Wrong, Venezuela suffers more sanctions than Nigeria, they are enemy to America and NATO has been punishing Venezuela with sanctions, reason why they now want to buy JF-17 Thunder for Venezuelan air force.

Nigeria's sanctions era ended 1999 and NNS Aradu was upgraded around 2005 by Nigeria and America joint venture.

Come to Lagos with a Valour frigate and kiss my Otomat missile, it out-ranges your 73km Exocet of which you have only 13 units while Nigeria has 40 Otomats.

Let your P.u.ssy Cat visit our Lion's den, we need free breakfast
.

By the Time we have our new OPVs we will have the 300km range BrahMos cruise missle for our Valours.
"Several countries including Vietnam,South Africa, Egypt, Oman, and Brunei have expressed interest in the missile"
http://capsindia.org/files/documents/CAPS_Infocus_RS_2.pdf

agaugust:
France offered Gowind OPV to Nigeria last year asking us to buy one and build the second one domestically in Nigeria with full technology transfer, Nigerian navy may not accept the offer, we are asking to build up to 8 more units of stealth P18N NNS Centenary
.

And SAN plans to build 10 more Valour class frigates!!!!!

Henry120:
Yes people, where did we stop with the a$s whooping of South-africans.

Patches689, Mikeczar, I see nothing has changed, you guys are still telling lies.

Jl115, I see you brother, I think it's time you stop hallucinating and daydreaming. It's a new day already.

Mzilakazi, still embarrassing black south-africans as usual, take a look at your last post. I'm embarrassed.

MudaZA, still posting off topics, when are you going to make a military related post on this thread?

The rest of the South-African bandwagon, another day of shedding mzanzo tears.

You are the one daydreaming mate, ive posted sources to support all my claims, unlike you, who make emotional post without any sources to back them up.

agaugust:
Bwahahahaha

South African military experts prove you a liar and a fraud, South Africans hate the Valour frigates because the warships are poorly armed like if they are a missile fitted OPV....

Publication: The Star Issued: Date: 2007-02-24 Reporter: Michael Schmidt
Has SA Invested in Weak Ships?



Publication
The Star

Date
2007-02-24

Reporter

Michael Schmidt
Web Link

www.thestar.co.za



Serious questions have been raised over the strike capability of the expensive new ships of the South African Navy (SAN). A new independent study claims they are vulnerable to attack from submarines, aircraft and warships, and have little ability to perform the key role of gunboat diplomacy through offshore bombardment.

These critiques emerge from an unpublished and unauthorised manuscript on the South African National Defence Force, A Guide to the SANDF, by defence analyst Leon Engelbrecht. It is the first study of the armed forces in 16 years.

Engelbrecht argues that the four new Valour-class frigates and three new Type 209 submarines are too light in their weapons and defensive counter-measures departments. This is the part of South Africa's multibillion-rand arms deal currently proving most controversial - because of an alleged $3-million (R21-million) bribe paid by the frigate's builders, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, to former arms acquisition programme head Chippy Shaik.

But Helmoed-Römer Heitman, the Southern African correspondent for Jane's Defence Weekly and author of a similar study, South African Armed Forces (1990), said Engelbrecht had failed to take into account the significant upgrades planned for the naval weapons systems *2, the choices for which would become clear only as the new navy's role developed *3.

Rear Admiral Kevin Watson, the navy's project director for the acquisition of the vessels, confirmed that the bulk of the expenditure on the frigates (65%) had been on the ships, not their weapons systems. This, he admitted, was at odds with the international norm of a 70% ship/30% weapons split.

As a result, according to Engelbrecht, while the ships were top notch, there were significant weaknesses in the weapons, and the counter-measures the ships were able to deploy against enemy attack.

The frigates will be armed with eight Exocet missiles, 16 Umkhonto missiles, a single turreted Denel 76mm gun, Oerlikon 20mm cannons and a South African Denel/Reutech 35mm cannon.

According to Engelbrecht, the frigate's "current armament [was] suited only for limited, short-duration self-defence". Its "land-attack capability [was] limited to guns too light for the task" and it had "no land attack missiles". This inability to add muscle to incursions ashore is underlined by Engelbrecht's argument that "the [Valour] class deliberately lacks a land- attack cruise missile capability for political reasons: such weapons are seen by some as 'too aggressive' and out of keeping with the Valour-class's 'defensive posture' *5.

"However, like its peers, the SAN recognises the growing importance of fighting in the littoral battle-space and supporting land forces … As a result, a missile land-attack capability is likely to be added as funds become available and sensitivities are assuaged."

Heitman said that budgeting, not political shyness, had delayed the development of the navy's land-attack capacity. Still, in Engelbrecht's estimation, the frigates' existing weapons were not up to scratch:

The French anti-ship "Exocet missile was too slow to penetrate modern air defences and too short-ranged to allow the mothership adequate stand-off to evade detection and response … Some commentators have criticised the choice of the Exocet … because of its lack of land-attack ability … Others have hammered the system for its age (developed in 1967), its low relative speed and small warhead, compared with some more modern systems such as the Indo-Russian BrahMos *6," which was touted to the SAN at last year's Africa Aerospace and Defence show in Cape Town.

Heitman suspected the SAN had bought one Exocet and leased the rest *6, but would upgrade to the latest, longer-range (173km) model, which had land-attack capabilities. The SAN was also interested in the supersonic 300km-range BrahMos cruise missile.

The South African Denel Umkhonto-IR is a short-range (12km) anti-aircraft missile, which is still in its development stage, having been "tested only to a limited extent", while "several navies and air forces already have supersonic anti-ship missiles. How the Umkhonto will deal with these is not known." The frigates can have their capacity doubled to 32 Umkhontos, but will probably carry only eight missiles and so "can easily be swamped by saturation attack *7".

Also, after a missile has been fired, empty launch canisters have to be removed from their silos, but: "As far as can be determined, this cannot be done by the Valour-class at sea, [so] reloading will have to be done alongside [in port] or require a replenishment vessel, as a depot ship, in calm seas".

Heitman admitted the missiles might have difficulty intercepting supersonic assaults, but said the Finns' recent acquisition of the Umkhonto and Sweden's interest showed the missile was taken seriously. He added that no navy was able to reload its vertically launched anti-aircraft missiles at sea.

The Italian OTOBreda 76mm cannons were acquired for the Warrior-class strike-craft in 1977 and four reconditioned ones were fitted to the frigates as "an interim cost-saving measure. Senior naval officers are well aware the gun is too small to effectively support forces ashore."

Heitman agreed, but also echoed Engelbrecht in saying the SAN was looking to replace the 76 with a navalised 155mm gun, which could use Denel's world-class G5 and G6 ammunition. Such a long-rage gun, rather than missiles, would be able to bombard enemy air bases, gun emplacements and ports. But this, Heitman argued, would be relevant only once the SAN had acquired multi-role ships capable of landing troops to secure beachheads softened by such bombardment.

In addition, the frigates were not fitted with torpedoes (as they were capable of), and its anti-submarine warfare ability was very basic, Watson admitted. Heitman said "there's absolutely f*** all [the frigates] can do to a submarine except ram it *7".

But the frigates would all go through "a massive upgrade" of their weapons, counter-measure and weapons-control systems in the coming years, he said.

Watson said the frigates' helicopters would initially be used in a surveillance role because they increased the ships' line of sight from 37km to 555km *9.

Politics & Power is a new analytical weekly feature
With acknowledgements to Michael Schmidt and The Star.


*1 What about the $22 million (R156 million) payments paid by the frigate's builders, ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, to other South African's via Monrovia, Liberia (the country with the slackest corporate law and regulations in the world).


*2 Heitman of course is correct in the fact. The Navy purchased an excellent platform with very weak combat system.

But it was not meant to be that way. The SA Navy Combat Suite User Requirement Specification specifies a very powerful combat capability in respect of anti-surface offence, as well as anti-air and anti-submarine defence.

The only thing was that once Thabo Mbeki guaranteed Thomson-CSF and ADS the contract for the combat management system and sensors in 1997 (two years before the contract was signed), the DoD and Armscor were over a barrel. Suddenly and R1,9 billion fully-fledged combat suite went up to R3,9 billion (with Chippy Shaik gleefully rubbing his enrichment
lamp all the way). With a little hard bargaining, but mainly cutting the quantity and quality (quote, unquote) of the combat suite scope of supply, the project team brought the price down from R3,9 billion to some R2,9 billion. Then with a risk sharing approach, as well as the probably exclusion of the price of the anti-ship missiles, the price went down to R2,3 billion and was "in reach of the then price objective" of R2,1 billion. But Chippy pipes up with the affordability study indicating an [acceptable] price of R2,600 billion and so the negotiations ended forthwith and the price went up to and closed at R2,599 billion on the nose. The R300 million sounds more like the wonga splodged by Thomson-CSF in its excitement of getting such a windfall.


*3 This of course is nonsense.

During 1995 to 1997 the Defence Review was undertaken. This confirmed the SA Navy's documented Naval Staff Requirement (NSR) for a multi-role light frigate with the specified combat capability.

The only thing was that the Government's irregular and unlawful acquisition process lead to a situation where the specified capability and equipment were unaffordable in 1999 compared with the ceiling price of R6,001 determined in August 1998.

So the DoD had to embarked on a series of very stealthy (and unlawful) manouvres to get a frigate. First it chopped its organic maritime helicopter, then it added R872 million to it "ceiling" price, then it halved its equipment expectation, then it didn't purchase but leased its anti-ship missiles, then it purchased functionality shortfalls out of the SA Navy's running budget.

Now the DoD is again purchasing maritime helicopters, new anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and a decent naval gun (not a 40-year old 3" pop gun off the strike craft).

This is called fiscal stealth and makes the radar and thermal stealth of the MEKO 200AS look like child's play.


*4 Wrong - the international norm of a multi-role surface combatant is 30% platform / 70% weapons.

But the ship's stealthy acquirers will eventually get the requisite 30% platform / 70% weapons.

Here's what the taxpayer will pay :
Combat Suite = R2,599 billion = 30% (in 1998 Rands)
Combat Suite = 70% = R6,064 billion (in 1998 Rands) = R11,109 billion (in 2007 Rands)

*5 This is also nonsense. The land attack capability is purely a tactical one. The Exocet MM40 Block 2 has a range of some 70 km and a warhead of 165 kg. Even if it had a land attack capability the range and small warhead limit it to a tactical battlefield weapon.

Exocet MM40 Block 3 (or equivalent) has a land attack capability, but still has a range of about 150 km.

Seeing that the ship only has eight ASM launchers the entire naval arsenal is only 32 rounds and these beast cost about US$20 apiece, one couldn't just blast away into one's enemy's territory.

A politically sensitive land attack missile is one with a range of greater than 500 km and payload of greater than 300 kg. For example, one of Bat Boy's favourite early morning diversions is authorising the launch of the Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missile. This beastie has a range of 2 500 km and carries a warhead of some 500 kg. And they only cost US$0,5 million a pop - now that's a bargain.


*5 And the Chinese "Dragon's Teeth" series.

These all have ranges of 250 km up to 2 000 km, massive warheads from 250 kg up to 500 kg and supersonic speeds from 2,0 Mach to 2,8 Mach.

It's a nightmare.


*6 Quite how this fits into the boundaries of the Public Finance Management Act, heaven only knows.

But it gets worse. What Heitman is now saying in the open has been suspected since 2001.

On enquiry, the MoD has stated unequivocally (or is it actually equivocally) that the SDP corvette price included 17 Exocet MM40 Block 2 missile rounds in addition to launch tubes and launch controllers.

If it transpires that the MoD has been lying, it should be in big, big trouble with SCOPA.


*7 And saturation attack is just what the Chinese anti-ship tactic is all about - 4 to 6 missiles simultaneously engaging from all four quadrants plus the lovely zenith-diving one.

Should keep Reutech Radar Systems's Optronic Radar Tracker (ORT) and Mtek's Electro-Optic Tracker (EOT) quite busy for those 43,2 seconds from missile detect to who knows what.

As for Thomson-CSF's Threat Evaluation and Weapon Assignment (TEWA) function, let's just hope that this can converge in the saturated space of Mach 2,8 multiple incoming bogies, garlic, escargot, bribes to get the contract, bribes to cover up the investigation and a dose of charming gallic candour.


*8 Which is quite difficult when the submarine has dived to 10 m and launched two wire-guided heavyweight torpedoes with 300 kg high explosive payloads.


*9 With a line of sight of 37 km and using a previous Heitman literary gem, one might as well take the entire ship's crew behind the electronics complex in the Simon's Town Naval Base and put them out of their misery with a bullet in the back of the head.




http://www.armsdeal-vpo.co.za/articles10/weak_ships.html

NAF-F7 jet will sink your over-priced poorly armed Valour Frigate as if it is a fishing boat..... .

CONFIRMED BY SOUTH AFRICAN MILITARY EXPERTS

.

First, look at the date 2007, all our Frigates have been refitted since then, the Ukkhonto R will be in service in the very near future,Secondly our Frigates can be fitted with 32 Umkhonto missiles if the need arises,the 76mm Gun is also just an interim Gun and will be replaced by a 155mm Gun which uses the same ammunition as the G5 and G6,
our Valours are also fitted with ASW Four (2 twin) 324mm torpedo tubes

""But the frigates would all go through "a massive upgrade" of their weapons, counter-measure and weapons-control systems in the coming
years, he said."" and they are as we speak.

"Heitman of course is correct in the fact. The Navy purchased an excellent platform", thus the Platform is there to add a lot of weapon systems, which is currently being done.

patches689:
Thing is South Africa needs versatility when it comes to big ticket assets such as naval vessels

Our OPV's and IPV's need to be swing-platforms (multi-role) that have the ability to police our waters and those of our neighbors (what we need them for now) but also have the capacity to be outfitted for conventional operations (ASW and Minehunting mainly) which means at the very least they need to be able to defend themselves

The 87m Gowind is slow, and has range that is impressive but not outstanding (10 000km) and mediocre autonomy, lightly armed (since the Denel Dual Purpose 35mm gun is not deck penetrating it could be fitted - but that would be its sole significant weapon) and of limited use in ASW (it would have to have a towed sonar aray, which means that it cant deploy depth charges, and a lack of torpedo tubes means it cannot engage subs at all and would have to work in tandem with a Valour class) so that at most means that its "swing-role" would be a mine hunter, as the rear ramps could probably be easily adapted for the deployment of AUV's.

And i dont think i need to explain why an 87m 1500t vessel would not be a very good minesweep

That being said, the space for a complement of 35 marines and ease of deployment of boats (under 5min up to ss4) is very nifty and makes it (IMO) the best contender for as a pure law-enforcement asset, despite its slow speed. Its ability to house a 6t helo means that the Lynx will fit, which is another big bonus

Its gunna be super interesting to see what we get

You make a great point, but to be honest do we really need a combatant or an anti piracy ship with Good endurance and Range,As for the weapons systems, im sure we have the capability to Arm it as a small Frigate rather than an OPV, I mean look at our Valours, they are armed like ships twice their size, they really are unbelievably well armed for their size.

..

NaijaPikinGidi:
Idle talk!

No sense is ever made by South Africans each time you do your funny brain-farts!! Your mission in Bangui ended right after you bolted to the Airport for French protection! Your cheap white-coloured Mr. Price pant is still hooked to the twig with which SANDF made their famous surrender as you lost men in the lost battle of Bangui!!

As i proved and said before, ill say it again, it was never our objective to protect bangui, we were there on a training mission,thus very lightly armed,Just like it was neither the French duty to protect bangui. Are you know stipulating that seleka defeated the French too, by taking Bangui.

ActivateKruger:
These OPVs should be fitted with Umkhontos and ship-to-ship missiles, they will make a very lethal combination with the Valour frigates.

I think SAN should opt for an IPV and OPV Package from Paramount, i mean their 87m Gowind class OPV and 42m Trimaran look out of this world.
www.paramountgroup.biz/PDF/Naval-Systems/87m_gowind_leaflet.pdf
www.paramountgroup.biz/PDF/Naval-Systems/42m_trimaran_leaflet_sml.pdf

MikeCZAR:
You forgot Turkey.

Oh...I see they are marketing their ADA class Corvette.

MikeCZAR:
You forgot Turkey.

Turkey?what ship are they marketing?

agaugust:
Manufacturer confirms it, y.ou are too d.ull to do research.




Another victim of poor research skills in Shout Afrikaa. Let Nigerians help you as usual :

The Nigerian catamarans have MINIMUM RADAR SIGNATURE, the barest minimum to avoid detection by enemy radar

http://pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/northseaboats/x-38-power-catamaran/25886-6675.html

South Africa can only dream and never buy a stealth catamaran like Nigeria, and we can put missiles on them if we want !
.

Sorry buddy but my source is directly from the manufacturer, thus by default its the most accurate.

patches689:
Why would we have more navigators than pilots?

We would we keep more planes operational than pilots?

Considering 14 Gripen are operational at any one time it means that we bave 14 pilots and 4 Navigators

Simple really

Already told him exactly what youve just said, we only have 8 gripen 2 seaters why would we have 10 navigators.
Any way, what do you think of this as a replacement for our Namacurra class harbor patrol boats.
Paramounts 17m Sentinel

patches689:
I cant remeber with whom they did it

But Paramount signed a deal with a foreign shipbuilder recently, it seems it is for Biro

Yes your right,they partnered up with DCNS the people who make the Gowind class OPV.I just found out about this a few min ago, i posted a link if you want to have a look, its obviously not the same as the normal Gowind as its in between the 1000ton and 2500ton class that DCNS currently offers for the Gowind.

patches689:
Lurssen werf brah

Also, no Meko A100?

The companies i added are those who expressed interest in offering an OPV for project Biro, as for the Meko100 im not sure if Blohm and Voss marketed it for project Biro, it will be extremely cool if they do.

Paramount offering a whole new type of Gowind class OPV:
www.paramountgroup.biz/PDF/Naval-Systems/87m_gowind_leaflet.pdf

Henry120:

HAHAHAHAHAH i see what this is, its a small dinki toy crew supplier for you Homeland Integrated Offshore Services Limited (HIOSL) not even your navy.
www.damen.co.za/en/news/2014/02/hiosl-takes-delivery-of-a-damen-fcs-3307-patrol

agaugust:
No, you posted no source. The NN Catamarans are stealth guaranteed. South Africa has never seen such in your history
.

Uhm.....yes i did, but for you ill post it again.
www.northseaboats.com/x38_combat_i.htm#.VI9zltKUfIQ

GENERAL DESCRIPTION

The Combat Cat is a stepped-hull high-speed power catamaran design that offers sea-keeping, speed and safety in all operating conditions. It can be configured for military, law enforcement, diving and Search and Rescue (SAR) use, and is ideally suited for rapid response interception, amphibious deployment of commandos, counter-piracy, medical evacuations or regular patrol work.

For less cost and risk than other high value patrol or combat assets, it can provide striking power against critical targets, as well as protect inshore and off-shore resources and assets. It can also be equipped with enhanced features for special warfare operations.

A catamaran has distinct advantages over mono-hull craft, as the low draft allows them to operate in shallow water and river estuaries, and conduct beach landings. Its wide beam reduces rolling, and produces a stable level ride, that makes it easier to come alongside other vessels, and creates a superior arms platform with improved weapons accuracy.

The foredeck has a gun-well that provides 270 degree coverage for a GPMG, or a 40mm grenade launcher, and two large deck hatches ensure fast and direct access forward for amphibious assaults. The aft deck has space for 2 side mounted GPMG.

The cabin accommodates a Captain/Navigator, helmsman, engineer and gunner, and features forward facing windows, which increases the effective cabin space, and reduces glare and heat build-up in the cabin. Troops or passengers are accommodated in transport seats in the hulls.

The Combat Cat can be operated by a crew of 2 or 4, and is capable of carrying an additional 10 - 12 fully equipped troops. It can reach speeds of around 40 knots, using either twin inboard diesels or outboards. The inboard diesel model has large deck access hatches to the engines, and transom platforms for boarding and diving.

CONSTRUCTION

Built entirely from composite GRP with cored sandwich panels, utilising the vacuum resin infusion system. It incorporates vinylester resin and stitched multi-directional E glass and carbon fibre reinforcements and additional strengthening members. The closed-cell high density foam cores increase panel stiffness and reduce the weight usually associated with (solid) GRP boats. This offers great strength and robustness and maximises hull integrity in the event of a collision.

Composite vessels have proven to have lower operational, maintenance and life-cycle costs, and longer life spans than aluminium and steel vessels.

Henry120:
If we wanted to, there local Nigerian companies which can build vessels upto 110 meters in length.

Here are armoured catamarans built for the Nigerian military.



To your question, that's South-Africa's worst Nightmare.

First it looks nothing like your Photo-shopped pic, secondly we built a 150m ship in 1984 and we are still doing today, and lastly why would we fear small harbor patrol boats?

agaugust:
Nigerian navy has already ordered about 5 of those DAMEN OPV you posted above.

South Africa will end up with fishing trawlers, you can mount machine guns on them as your own OPV
.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH now i see where you got your info from, beegeagle BLOG:
beegeagle./2014/05/22/nigerian-navy-expecting-five-dutch-built-ships-mystery-ships-believed-to-be-47-metre-damen-stan-4708-midshore-patrol-vessels/
BTW those are the 4708 version, we already have 3 of them. They are currently with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries as they arent what you call military/Naval ships.

Henry120:

WTF is that supposed to be?

ChukwuCantDie:
Are you deliberately stupid? Or are you just a result of South Africa's rubbish education system? Or is it just a combination of both?

So the fact that i asked him a source to prove his statement makes me Stupd? BTW our rubbish education boasts some of the best universities in the world, where are Nigerian universities ranked?

agaugust:
Nigerian navy has already ordered about 5 of those DAMEN OPV you posted above.

South Africa will end up with fishing trawlers, you can mount machine guns on them as your own OPV
.

Source.... and btw its an IPV not an OPV, Nigeria doesnt have nearly enough money to buy the Holland class OPV.

Henry120:
18 Gripen Air crew doesn't equal 18 Gripen Pilots.

Besides, even if we are to see this claim from your POV, 18 pilots (lower of course), 26 planes, 15 years, is this a number to be proud of?

18 Aircrew doesn't equal 18 pilots.

How many pilots were trained?
What are the number of navigators trained?

My answer.

8 pilots trained
10 navigators.

I didnt say we have 18 pilots did i. And why will we have 10 navigators if we only have 8 two seater gripens, and only 12 gripens are in rotation thus 26-12= 14, that means 14 pilots and 4 navigators see, and i posted a pic of 9 saaf gripens in formation.