₦airaland Forum

I was touched by the mission reports. How the ministry has impacted Egypt , especially the testimony, of that Egyptian minister who is now translating our materials into Arabic . The fire of the holyghost is burning all over the world.

Demain_man:
Sorry sir, are you saying that you have never seen any of these big guys in any christian crusade at all or that the ones they attend are not organised by christians.

I sAid what they need is salvation. Who do you now blame for their lack of confession. God?

I have indeed notice that you always have excuse for all your shortcomings.

What is my shortcoming?.

mrmayor:
I just love you man; ol'boy the way you come up with explanations ( excuses) is most commendable I almost believed you. One question though, is there any reason why Politicians (Ibori,Odilli etc), Bankers (Ibru,Akingbola etc), Contractors,DG's etc never fall and confess how much they have stolen; or is it only house girls who always confess to witchcraft?

We are not talking about confessions here? . But about falling under the power. Besides I'm not aware if the people you mentioned goes to christens crusades. If there's anything they need. Its salvation by the word, not the falling.

mrmayor:
The real drama about "Falling Under The Anointing" is the Camera Men ( TV Crew), and the Ushers never fall! Why; Is the Holy Spirit Partial?.

The camera men didn't come for a healing. If they need one. They have their insider way of being ministered to. They are
Part of the team to ministered to others. It's not about the holy spirit being partial. Why don't you ask why the pastor didn't fall? . He is there for the people. Even if for any reason he has a challenge and needs a miracle. His faith at that time is for others. God wont force a manifestation that you don't have faith for. So the camera man is not out to receive , he is out to record and that's where his faith is.

There are several reasons why people fall . And it's not only female. Some have demonic case, and when the anointing of God is working, the demons feel uncomfortable and start manifesting, they may roll on the ground, scream, etc.
Sometimes when a demon leaves a person. The person may fall down numb, or vomit . Etc.

But there are other cases that are not demonic. When the power of God comes upon a person. It's a blessing, and the power sometimes may cause the person to fall.

@Jesoul

JeSoul:
Thanks for the response again Jo. Let me focus on the bit I'm sure most pple are interested in -    I think many will agree that the word of God gives guidelines and principles for virtually all matters pertaining to life. And I don't think any of the scripture verses you provided adequately address your position that the pastor is to be involved in all aspects of the believers life - but rather that their job as leadership is to communicate the word to the congregation. And I submit the job of 'communication of the word' does not confer on the leadership the 'rights of the authority of the word'.

His involvement is communicating the word relative to their given situation. I don't mean he should lord it over them by his feeling. A brother cheats another in business. What should they do. They ought to take it to the church. The pastor will declare God counsel for them. Like moses,judges, and Kings did in the O.T
 
1 Corinthians 6:5-6
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 

Q1: Consider this:
Master: a person with the ability or power to use, control, or dispose of something. An owner. An employer.
Overseer:  to direct; supervise; manage. To survey or watch, as from a higher position.

The bible uses overseer/guide/leader to describe church leadership - but the title of master is reserved for Christ. Do you think the position of 'master' is infact being occupied by the elevated role of pastors today? such that the congregation go to him/her instead of going directly to Christ? and idolatry begins to seep in and take firm root?

That position is too hot and too high for a man to take. Ministry is a place of service . Not a place to lord it over peoples lives. He serves to perfect the saints and not to control their lives. 

1 Peter 5:3
3 Neither as being lords over[ God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 

-We see phenomena like going to the pastor to ask permission to marry,

Yes ,  it is a wise things. Some indiscipline men could shatter ladies heart. In all these secret relationship, but pastoral involvement brings discipline. And sense of responsibility. Brethren needs guidance. It's not everybody you should marry. Some people don't know how to make choices by the word they need counselling,  Some are not spiritually matured enough to marry they need sometime to grow as Christians first and get committed to serving God. A pastor will guide them aright.
Some could have demonic cases that could have destroyed a home. But the pastor can discern and  cast such out.

getting the pastors approval before making family/business decisions,

It's not by force. A pastor trains and guide people to know Gods will and walk in it. But if any still have issues , it is not out of place to seek the pastor opinion or counsel. Pastoral counsel is safe. It's by the spirit. But it's not by force. 

I was going to sell a painting to a gallery in the 90s for 2,500 or 3,000 Nairaland or so when  I told my pastor then, he said sell it for 5,000 . I said it's not possible. That man will not buy more than 3,000. But finally I said yes sir. To cut the long story . I sold it for 5,000. Jesus told Peter where to throw the net. Pastoral guidance is not by force , it's for those who wish to submit to it.

I was had an insect fly into my eyes ,my eyes began to itch .my pastor told me to lay hands on it and rebuke . I said "it's just an insect it will stop" but by the following day, my eyes were swollen and mucus was coming out of it. I laid my hands and rebuked it and it became clear . And the itching stopped.  
 

congregants going out their way and finances to please the pastor and gain favor -  Are all these not symptoms of a master-servant relationship?

That is carnal for them to do. It's only in a place where the word has not gained ascendancy that such thing will prevail.  It's not the pastor that initiate such things most time but the brethren.  No one send them.  If a pastor is not careful and disciplined enough , some church members can turn him into another thing. Sycophants. 

Q2: Can you please explain what you mean here?:

[b]Quote. If anyone is misbehaving immorally , it is a personal problem he has , it has nothing to do with the pastoral work. It is his indiscipline.

Is a man's behavior seperate from his "pastor-hood"?

What I meant was that, such a person would still have had his challenge if he hadn't been a pastor. It is not the pastoring work that made him do such. Pastoring does not change a mans personality. He character is based on his personal development as a Christian . He is first a christian before hes a pastor.His pastoral anointing is to minister to people but his character depends on his response to the word as a Christian . Obviously Paul had issues with some bishops is his days . He had to lay down rules for them. As a measure and check. 

Quote
A real pastor leads people to Christ and not to himself. His fulfilment is to make them stand and grounded in the word of God.

 I like this quote a lot! Amen to that . . . however you almost negate yourself by saying this .This thoroughly confuses me Jo. 

People don't just obey the word  by reading , the pastor, has to make them do it. Some by teaching and admonition others with Cain.

Q3: Can you please explain what you mean here as well? Thanks!

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture[ is] given by inspiration of God, and[ is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Truth is communicated is different ways, some by admonition , some by rebuke and discipline. People don't always obey because it is written. Paul had to discipline some, encourage some and admonish some. With intercession so that they could stand .

@chukwudi

chukwudi44:
I see pastor agbaje has done a 360 u-turn on what he said here

I didn't make any 360 u turn. You should have asked for my explanation. Than trying to ridicule me. I've always said the holyspirit is omnipresent. He is not absent in heaven. But saints in heaven don't need the anointing of the spirit over there. The residence of the holy spirit is in the church on the earth now. He is not strolling arround. He is the power in the church. He works through us. When I said he is Not in heaven , i'm not referring to the OMNIPRESENCE, but the MANIFESTED PRESENCE through the saints.in heaven based on our discussion, 

There are different kinds of presence of God and of the holy spirit. Such as  OMNIPRESENCE, INDWELLING PRESENCE, MANIFESTED PRESENCE.ETC

Pastor could you please expatiate on this

Take Jesus for example. He said wherever two or three are gathererd he is there, 

Matthew 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. 

That's a manifested presence. But the omni presence was there before they ever gather. When we go to church we say we go to the presence of God. But his omnipresence is inside our toilets also. But the manifested presence is in our corporate gathering and when we use the name of Jesus. Or when we invoke his power in worship . His presence will manifest.

The indwelling presence is not everywhere. He only dwell in Christians . The disciples of christ were not able to receive the indwelling presence until christ died even though the omni presence was dwelling arround them but he could not dwell in them 

John 14:17
17[ Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 

@Jesoul

JeSoul:
Q1: What role/s can women play in the church leadership structure? are they allowed to be pastors? deacons? bishops? prophets? teachers? etc

In christ there is no gender. Male and female are one. They can hold any office men hold. It's only the mentality of inferiority that holds them back.The holyghost is given to us equally for service.and preaching.

Acts 2:17
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, 

There is no female holyghost. He is given to use the man and the woman. I don't know how deep I'm allowed to go in this interview. But Paul only cautioned women who were disturbing the services not to be asking too many questions and be quiet. He also caution some overexcited women not to be lecturing their husbands on the word (at home) since the man is the boss at home. That has nothing to do with church service. If the holy spirit choose to use a person, we can't stop her. Even under the old testament when women were forbidden in leadership and public activity. When the anointing came upon Rebecca to lead israel , all the men came to submit to her. It's not about gender but the anointing of the holyghost. If he is using a woman, don't see her as woman. If he is using a boy,illiterate , don't see him as illiterate and if he is using a boy, don't see him as a boy. Jeremiah was a small boy. Yet, he was Gods choice.    

Jeremiah 1:6-7
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I[ am] a child. 7 But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I[ am] a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. 

That's why Paul had to warn timothy not to see himself as a boy . 

1 Timothy 4:12
12 Let no man despise thy youth; 

Nobody should despise a woman who God anointing is resting upon. We grieve the holy spirit that way. Why would God pour his spirit on women? Is it not for action?. Prophecy means to speak or preach Gods word. 

 

I know many people will take exception to your belief here on the pastors job covering virtually the entire sphere of a person's life. 
Q2: Can you give us a few scripture verses that support your belief here above?

The pastor feeds the sheep. He is a gift to them . To perfect them . 

Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 


Paul's ministry didn't just cover Christian service. He was involved in their day to day activities. He dealth with their attitude at work, duty to government, civil activities, business. marital affairs, sex and abstiness, Health, the home, raising kids, etc. 

  1 Peter 2:17
17 Honour all[ men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 

Colossians 3:18-23
18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love[ your] wives, and be not bitter against them. 20 Children, obey[ your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children[ to anger], lest they be discouraged. 22 Servants, obey in all things[ your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: 23 And whatsoever ye do, do[ it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 

Romans 12:11
11 Never be lazy in your work. . . . .

Q3: What pitfalls or dangers have you seen (or do you anticipate) from a follower having such an intimate relationship with a spiritual leader? We have seen abuse of this kind of powerful authority in issues like pastors sleeping with women in the church, manipulating finances to their benefit etc etc.

It's only a pastor who has not been well raised that may have such problems. It's good for a pastor to be raised by another his personal character can be tamed by the word and discipline. The bible gave criteria and qualification for people that will serve in ministry.

A pastor shouldnt keep away from people because of this . His job is people.He has to do his job to fulfil his ministry. Everybody goes to the pastor. From the woman who's husband ran away and the student who has no school fees to the new comer who has no transport to go home. After everybody has gone these will be left with Mr pastor to find solution  to their problem. It is a calling.

 Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 

But that should not lead to any form of uncleanness . If anyone is misbehaving immorally , it is a personal problem he has , it has nothing to do with the pastoral work. It is his indiscipline. Paul didn't tell timothy to keep away from the sheep but rather , to behave with discipline. Yet very close to his sheep.

  1 Timothy 5:2-3
2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. 3 Honour widows that are widows indeed. 

Q4: Do you think it may be more biblical if this intimacy is rather shared with Holy Spirit? afterall isn't that what His job is? it would seem like the pastor is stepping into a role that is meant for someone else doesn't it?

A real pastor leads people to Christ and not to himself. His fulfilment is to make them stand and grounded in the word of God. 

People don't just obey the word  by reading , the pastor, has to make them do it. Some by teaching and admonition others with Cain.

@jesoul

JeSoul:
Nice topic. I would readily say the problems you've observed in your church are most certainly not unique to only Cele.
Can you post a copy of the church constitution here on the thread?

I doubt if he can lay hands on that. And if he does , it might be too voluminous to pit up here. Why not ask him for their Statement Of Faith rather. It's just in few lines.

@free123

free123:
@joagbaje
can you start a thread on the teachings of Pastor Chris concerning [b]"Sin and its consequences" [/b]because it seems that what we hear from him is prosperity most times

Theres a meesage titled :CONCEPT OF SIN. By pastor chris. It has all you want .

2 Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put the in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands .

The power of God came into your life the day you received the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:8
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you…”.

However, this doesn’t mean that the power is active all the time; you’ve got to activate it. That’s why Paul told Timothy to stir up the gift of God in him. He was referring to the power of the Holy Spirit which can be dormant in your spirit unless you activate it.

Sad to say that some folks have allowed that power lie dormant in them for so long. So, often times, you find them praying to God for what already belongs to them. The Lord, through His Word, shows us that we’re responsible for activating His power in us. Paul didn’t say to Timothy “Pray to God to stir up the gift in you,” for it’s not God’s responsibility, but Timothy’s.

When you pray in tongues you stir up the power of God resident in your spirit. Suddenly, that power that was quietly nestling in your spirit is activated and causes a change: you’re infused with divine strength, and the glory of God is revealed through you. It’s no use praying to God to send more power down from heaven. The anointing is in you already, but you have to activate it and put it to work. The way to activate the power of God in you is by speaking in other tongues! You can turn the power on whenever you choose, wherever you are – by speaking fervently in other tongues. So stir up that power right now; speak in other tongues.

2 Timothy 1:6 AMP
That is why I would remind you to stir up (rekindle the embers of, fan the flame of, and keep burning) the [gracious] gift of God, [the inner fire] that is in you by means of the laying on of my hands [with those of the elders at your ordination].

1 Timothy 4:14 AMP
Do not neglect the gift which is in you, [that special inward endowment] which was directly imparted to you [by the Holy Spirit] by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you [at your ordination].

@ftcomms

ftcomms:
.
@ Joagbaje, Where were you in the 1990's when Tunde Bakare & Chris Oyakhilome were criticizing Oyedepo? You probably know nothing about it. I know because I was a member of Christ Embassy then. So if you don't know, it is better to just keep quiet & watch.

My Dear, pastor Chris is too spiritual for that kind of careless utterance. I have his tapes, in which one of them did he criticise Oyedepo? Tell us the title.

@ Donnie ,
Thanks for the contribution. I was manipulated into this by chukwudi. As I explained earlier. That's not what I meant.

The holy spirit is in heaven, in space, in the water, in the forest . He is everywhere .

There are different kinds of presence of God and of the holy spirit. Such as  OMNIPRESENCE, INDWELLING PRESENCE, MANIFESTED PRESENCE.ETC.

The omni presence of the holyghost . Cannot be denied . He is everywhere.

Psalms 139:7-8
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou[ art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou[ art there]. 


I was in another thread  with chukwudi . He was justifying  praying to holy Mary and other saints and asking the to pray for us as a Catholic , equating it with pastors on earth praying for people. I said we don't need to ask Mary to pray for us and other saints,  We are the one that have the holyspirit in us to pray with. They don't need the power of the spirit in heaven.

We don't pray to pastors. Like you pray to Mary. The dead saints has no dealings with living men. The saints on earth can pray for one another because of the anointing of the holyghost, but the saints in heaven don't have the holyghost with them. They only wait and watch us.

Instead of asking me for explanation, he created this new thread . The omnipresence of the God and the holyspirit is everywhere. But the indwelling presence is not everywhere . Only in believers . The manifested presence is not everywhere either. He manifest through the church . He manifest by the word and he manifest through the name of Jesus. His actions really have always been associated with earth.he manifest God on the earth. But he fills everywhere.

I never denied the omnipresence of the holyghost at any time. He is known by action. And his action is here on earth right now in the church. This is what I said earlier.

The holy spirit house address presently is inside of me.even though he has omnipotence. He answers to the name of Jesus. Where ever two or three shall gather in his name.

@jesoul

JeSoul:
Q1: For those of us who don't know, can you briefly bullet-point the description of each of the 'systems' above?

The pastoral system. This is the pyramid kind of structure . The pastor is the head of the structure. There are leaders and elders but they are accountable p to the pastor and not the other way round.

Congregational system: This is a democratic system mostly practice in America . They vote from among the members , who should be the pastor. So it rotates from one to another.

Presbitarian system: is a church government led by groups of elders. The pastor reports to them, they dictate what he preaches.
 
The Episcopal system.  is the one practised by roman catholic and Anglican.

Q2: A most interesting quote. If I may, I'd like to introduce some ma terial from a past thread to help enhance the discussion (shout-out to TV01 here ) Jo, what are you thoughts/comments on this point of view on church structure? do you see any merit to some of it? parts of it?

---

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-397372.32.html
for the audience: See also this throw-back thread: Church Structure & Sole Authority Pastors  https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-30552.0.html

---

Churches that didnt have a pastor , had anarchy problem in the days of the apostle. Headship is a spiritual law. From beginning of creation. Even though male and female have equal right in christ,That didn't abolish the headship of the man. God never led people by many but by one man. Timothy may ordain elders, but they are still submitted to him as their pastor, while timothy is submitted to Paul. Some elders handled things in a local church then because an ordained pastor hasn't been sent there.

So am I correct in summarizing that you believe the Pastor should be involved in every aspect of the flock's life?
Q3: Is there any area at all that should not fall under the pastor's jurisdiction? such as personal intimate matters eg. sex within marriage? or personal/family finance matters ? or in the case of domestic abuse, shouldn't that be forwarded to the police authorities?

The pastor ought to be involved with every aspect of life, so long as the word of God covers those areas. Even sex withing marriage. If a man denies his wife. The pastor will teach him what the scripture says about not denying her . Vice versa. Since the word of God cover every aspect of life. The pastor work covers all too. He is a guide.

@jesoul

JeSoul:
Q1: In your view, what is the leadership structure of the church supposed to look like? Is it a pyramid structure? of one head pastor who calls the shots, a VP below, then others below etc etc? - or is it more like a joint board, where power is distributed horizontally and members of the leadership are equal and make decisions together as opposed to from the top down

There are 4 basic structure of church government. We have the : pastoral, presibitarian system, The congregational system and the episcopal system. But the pastoral system is the scriptural one. God doesn't lead by Majority, he leads through one leader.  

Q2: What is the extent of the role church leadership is supposed to play in the lives of the congregation? How much "authority" does a pastor have over the flock? to what aspects/areas of their lives does this authority extend to? Is it limited to only spiritual matters? financial? relational? academic? occupational? etc

A pastor is involved to the extent the members submit to him. He is involved with everything the holyghost is involved with.  Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his health challenge. That's a pastor . His duty is to feed, lead ,guide, guard the flock .  If a man is beating his wife, the pastor has a say . It is not a civil case. The church is a world on it's own. If a member does not want the pastor involved in certain affairs of his, the pastor can't force it. It's the member that loses out.

@seyibrown

seyibrown:
He does believe and confess that Jesus is Lord, died on the cross, and is the saviour (but doesn't the Bible say that even devils believe).

The devil don't believe in Jesus as their lord. That's not what the bible says. They believe there's God.

James 2:19
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Anyone who confess Jesus christ as his lord is born again. It takes the power of the holygost to openly declare his lordship.

The dead members (except for one lady) all left the church quietly. They don't try influencing other members as they know(or found out) that he is (back) into black majic.The members that left had started attending other churches before the 'fatwas' and their subsequent deaths.

You know we have lot of gossip in the body of christ , thats why many are sick and dying. One of then reason why I'm so concerned is the level of ignorance we display by not walking in love . I don't condone these evil acts of this minister.(if they are true) do you know that evil speaking against a minister can cause sickness or death. Even without "fatwa" if  a Christian act against love. By evil speaking,selfishness, hatred, malice etc. It can cause death. Not just against a minister but against fellow Christian.when we don't understand and discern the body of christ. We walk against 
Love. Paul said some are sick and died because of these.

   1 Corinthians 11:30
30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died. 

These are my concerns , we judge a lot. If we must judge , we should judge according to truth.

Looks like this one fights for himself using 'Black Magic'.

We need proof on this. Was he caught making incantations?

SOME OF HIS DOCTRINES:

1. Fornication

Did he say it's not a sin? And that it's scripturally justified?
 

2. Adultery (but not allowed with church members unless you're taking a new wife (and rich))

I don't understand the above well.

3. Paganism alongside Christianity

These require definition

4. Praying to the God of 'his name' in the name of Jesus

Is it like when someone says "God of adeboye, God of Oyedepo"?

5. Menstruating Women Should not cook food for their Husbands or Father
6. Men should not sleep in the same bed with their menstruating wives

The white garment church I grew had that doctrine. Too .The error is from old testament understanding. He  needs scriptural enlightenment .  

7. Menstruating women not allowed inside the church  - later allowed as long as they perform ablution - later changed to 'grace' covers it.
8. Sending 'witch wives' away and giving their husbands a 'non-witch' wife (wives) 
9. The angels bring him beautiful 'oyinbos' in the Spirit (when he is angry with his wife).

We can see progress recorded here. Prayer is working. We should remember that redeem church used to have funny doctrines too at the beginning. It started as a white garment church. But the word brought changes we see today. As we pray for ministers , the light of the word is bringing changes . The holyghost is washing and purging his the church.   

Apart from 'disobedient' members, many people (including extended family members)around him have died mysteriously and it is always the dead person's fault for 'disobedience to what the Holy Spirit said through him'.

If the man is born again. His problem could be ignorance. Some people have been influence by the background they came from. Lack of education also has effect on the scriptural knowledge of ministers. I believe the man works miracles . Some people who are anointed for prophecy and miracles . May feel they are ok , not knowing that the holyghost will not teach you bible , you study to show yourself. Approved . 

But my own conclusion on the matter. If discusion fails , the next step is to get his matter into the hands of other ministers. A minister can correct or rebuke another minister. But not the church members. The man may have a real call of God and may be heavily anointed but because of lack of knowledge of scriptures. He may have some errors in his doctrines. But if someone now speak against such person who is anointed of God in condemnation . Such has consequences . Even though the man has some wrong teaching. Those who are concern are free to leave the church, go to him, report his matter to other ministers. And allow them to handle the matter . At their senior level  and also labour in prayer for him.

@jesoul,
Sorry for my delay, I had network situation

@seyibrown

seyibrown:
I know a Pastor who has his flock under spiritual bondage. I can count 10 people who went privately to point out errors to him and who ended up dying. What happens is when they talk to him privately and for one reason or the other stop attending church, he labels them 'faithless' and 'backsliders' starts prophesying death and bad things on these members. He warns other members not to associate with them. He curses those who do not have money for offerings and ridicules poorer members openly. My dad decided to withdraw from the church when he discovered he was teaching certain things that have no Bible basis and he would not listen whe he was approached privately. The Pastor simply employed the same tactics he uses on members who leave, prophesying death on my family (for quite a few years now)and telling other members not to associate with my dad. Most of the church members that still attend are in poverty but still have to give give give, they are all in spiritual poverty because the teachings they get does not encourage a personal relationship with God; they rely on him instead.  Small headache sef na to run go meet this Pastor. There is segregation between the rich and the poor in the church and the last I heard, another 2 prominent elders of the church died last year for 'not listening to what teh Pastor was telling them'. The man is an acclaimed babalawo turned pastor but it turned out he was doing the things he said he had turned away from. This man somehow managed to hold a CAN position years ago. He used to appear on TV years ago(dunno if he still does).

Is he a true christian?

We can only judge that by what he profess, who is Jesus to him. If he has received christ, he is a Christian .
 
1 Corinthians 12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and[ that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 

But that doesn't mean he can't be seduced into error. But if his idea of the lordship, burial and resurrection of christ is unscriptural , then he is not a Christian .  There is a church called . GODIAN  just like the jehohivahs witness  believe they should deal with God directly. So instead of Christianity their own is Godianity. Every church has " Statement of faith" which is their church constitution. It shows their concept of God, christ and the holyspirit . That's one of the first thing to find out. If a church says Jesus christ is nothing but angel micheal. Now we are talking .  

Is it right to warn other people about this pastor?

It is not about the man but his doctrine, you should supply us information on these things. What he teaches, his theology. That's where we star from. The only thing here is that he killed people . That's sounds more like a proof to me that he is anointed. Please don't get me wrong. A pastor has anointing to kill (I'm not saying it is right ). Even though he will answer to God  for the wrong use of the power. Im only saying you dont conclude based on the fact that someone died.Peter killed Ananias and sapphira. Paul delivered some brethren to the devil for their blaspheming . Elisha killed some children by commanding lion to eat them. The anointing works both ways through ministers. But we shall account for every abuse. A man of God is not supposed to fight for himself . God fights for his man.

And the idea that if someone lives his church the person will die it's not true.  Except if the person has been a negative influence in the church. And If the member has repented submitted to another pastor. He is free no matter the fatua the pastor is pronouncing . The grace of his new pastor covers him. He is now another man's sheep. But if he has offended in the former church , if he has done something wrong. He may need to go and make peace with his former pastor. To fulfil all righteousness.

Who is to help his flock?

Let us know his teachings.  If for example he says, "there is nothing like salvation, jesus did not rise. Etc. We know that the man is unsaved . The members should be preached to like any umbeliever.

Is it a good idea to advise this pastor privately given the record of those who did?

Their approach was probably the problem.You don't advice him if he didn't ask for advice. You don't accuse him. Or oppose him. That's already a wrong approach . The first thing is to ask in humility . If I were in his church and I feel the doctrines seems to be erroneous at least not all . I will go to him privately and say nice things like " pastor I really want to appreciate you  for you devotion to the work of God bla bla bla. Then go to the point. Sir, there are  some doctrines we hold that I need clarification for, just incase someone confronts me . I want to have biblical understanding on these issues " 

By this approach, you will disarm every defensive attitude, he will see you as a friend and helper, and he will be open. He can't be angry.  But if he now says " actually this doctrine was given to me by one angel. . . . " Ahaa!  We know what we are dealing with.

What do we do about wolves in our midst and their unfortunate flock?

We  are to pray and preach truth.  light will overcome darkness. I don't need to enter mosque to reach Muslim . I preach to every person alike.

@InesQor

InesQor:
@JoAgbaje
I highlighted that sentence because it was ambiguous and I was going to respond based on the first meaning I got. As i started typing, i got the 2nd meaning and said Good job. I left the highlight to remind myself to be careful about context.
I asked for proof that it was yours. You replied:
Those are really some of my past works , except this and that.
Meaning 1: those two paintings are not yours. So i was going to ask, why are they in your gallery then, under your name?
Meaning 2: the 2 paintings are yours, but they are not your PAST works, i.e. They are very recent and you just sold them last week.
Thats why I left it highlighted. Im learning to be slow to speak.

What I meant was that these two works are part of my recent works. Which were sold in a recent  exhibition that ended 13 November at  Mydrim Gallery,74b Norman Williams Street, South-West, Ikoyi, Lagos, Nigeria. Telephone:

It's ok . I thought you highlighted it to mock the title by reading another meaning. PARTNERSHIP ( money). FAMILY BUSINESS(money).  I guess I misunderstood you.

SirJohn:
Hi Jo,
nice work of art you got there; I have always wanted to have a large (near real) painting of two cherubims like the one described in exodus hanging directly above my bed, can you fix something up for me?

What do you mean by "near real"  are you referring to size "near real life size" or style of painting "realistic" or surrealism"

IneqQor
Your emphasis on PARTNERSHIP and FAMILY BUSINESS is suspicious

InesQor:
@Joagbaje:

I saw your art portfolio at Redbubble using the link above. Impressive, Interesting! :-)

But, sorry to be a doubter, do you have links to your artwork from past official exhibitions and stuff (your bio says you have been at many)? You know, formal stuff where other artwork is side by side and people are there?

Cos Nothing stops me from registering and putting something or the other up as well (if its mine or that of my bro or cousin or friend or an anonymous entity whose work has been plagiarized :p)! cos I see you registered some days ago. . .

Very funny.   If youre my friend on facebook, you will see me working in my studio and in some exhibitions. Don't you know it's a crime to put another persons work for sale.  In red bubble we sell works there. In prints. The buyers use them for post cards etc. Except they request a remake of the original.Those are really some of my past works, except the one I titled "partnership" and the other one "FAMILY BUSINESS".  Which I recently sold last week in an exhibition in V.I.  Lagos last week.

@nuclear boy

nuclearboy:
^^ with all the marketing on NL
You don't say!

Do you market Gods word? I told you guys that I'm an artist. And I make gooood money.if you want me to market to you, come and buy my works.

http://www.redbubble.com/people/joeagbaje

There will be special discount for NL MEMBERS.

Nuclearboy

nuclearboy:
^^ Chei, see error!
You are looking for truth while Oga Jo and co are looking for cash.

Correction. I don't look for cash. Cash looks for me. Everything I do prosper. That's what Everyone need to know. Money is a servant. Not a God.

newmi:
@Joagbaje
I think you should be sincere enough to primarily concentrate on the sincere concerns of KunleOsob's interview questions because l feel he is sincere.
Please let us bring let us bring this thread back on track. thank

What questions? He said he is the angel that will burn people in hell he is the one that will conduct the rapture of the church.

@kunleoshob
I would have loved to talk with you too. But your are not like jesoul. You will not give ear.
My emai :Joagbaje@yahoo.com. Let me have yours. I'll send my number. we can trash some issues out on phone.

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success

Not only is the Word of God the number one recipe for success and prosperity, its also requisite for dealing wisely in the affairs of life. When you study our opening verse from the original text, it shows us something beautiful. It lets us know that not only will you have good success by meditating on the Word, you’ll also become perceptive. It uses the Hebrew word “sakal”, which is akin to the Greek word “suniemi” which means a mental putting-together; to become sagacious, penetratingly discerning, perspicacious and acutely intelligent.

Thus the Word of God has the ability to increase your intelligence. Through studying and meditating on the Word, your thinking level rises and you become different from others. You become accurately insightful, expertly circumspect, and superbly clever. You begin to function in exceptional wisdom. You become prudent and able to deal wisely in the affairs of life.

The Amplified Translation renders our opening verse thus:

This Book of the Law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, that you may observe {and} do according to all that is written in it. For then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall deal wisely {and} have good success.”

Through the Word, you become wise in your dealings with people in everything. Some people don’t function wisely, and that accounts for the constant failures they experience in their lives; the Word is what they need. The Spirit of God, through the Word brings into your understanding that sagacity of the Spirit that only a child of God can have.

I urge you today to go passionately for the Word;

2 Timothy 3:15
for it’s able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus ().

We used to dhow BURNING HELL " those days! you can Use the "OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT" by pastor chris.(jocking)

What of TIME CHANGER or LEFT BEHIND SERIES, MEGGIDO some of the TBN films are good.

KunleOshob:
Asr 1 : you are born of christ when you have christ in you. You would fill his spirit in you and have a burning desire to do his will.

Ansr 2: jesus is the master and how he communicates with his flock is no business of yours, if you desire to follow him then repent of your ways and ask him to come into your life, then he might start communicating with you.

Ansr 3 : I would repost verse 30 of the scripture you quoted
30 Let the wheat and the weeds grow together until harvest. Then I will tell the harvest workers to pull up the weeds first and tie them up in bundles and burn them and to gather the wheat and put them in my barn.

^^^
My milk teeth pastor obviously you don't realize that harvest time is already here and Jesus has called his harvest workers like myself to start removing the weeds from the church. As I have always told you, you understanding of scripture is very shallow, you may have knowledge of scripture but understanding is another matter. In that scripture you have been flaunting, did Jesus say he would come and remove the weeds himself? Is it not does of us who serve him that he said he would send? Well the master as called those of us his sheep who know his voice have answered and we are currently removing the weeds from his church as he called us to do, if you are not happy about it, go and complain to the master who sent us, that is if you know how to communicate with him.

See how you embarrass yourself . Since the word expose your unlawful deed . Your only hiding place is to create a new meaning. You an unserious person. I can't believe this. You are the angel . That means the rapture of the church has come!

Old things are passed away

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man[ be] in Christ,[ he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

KunleOshob:
@joagbaje
I am born of christ and filled with his spirit, I refuse to use the term 'born again' because it has been abused by people like you who have no clue what it really means to be born again.

Q1:So how did you get born of christ and filled with the spirit.

. As I said I would continue to do the work of the master who sent me and fight the wolves in sheep clothing ravaging the church

Q2:Who is the master and How did he send you?
Q3:I asked you about this scripture.

Matthew 13:29-30
Matthew 13:29-30
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. .

Kunleoshob

KunleOshob:
I am not into pastor worship like yourself which is idolatory. It is still unfortunate that you fail to realize even given the glaring example of Rev King that false preachers abound in the church today and they destroying lives and they must be stopped.

So what do you to this scripture.
 
Matthew 13:29-30
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 

You fail to realize that it is those of us that are called of christ that are mandated to point out these false preachers expose and stop them.

Who called you? When?. . .pls don't make us laugh.

You just want to stubbornly defend your errors .

Jesus is not going to come from heaven to stop these charlatans but he is going to use his servants like me to fight them and expose them so they would stop preying on his flock.

When did you become his servant? How have you served?  You have only been an accuser of the brethren . Its Satan that gives such responsibilities.

Revelation 12:10
10: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 

Only an agent of the devil would feel comfortable with this evil being done in churches today. I sincerely pray that God would give you the grace to discern the truth and fight against the enemy that is currently ravaging the church starting with CEC.

What did CEC. do Than touching lives for christ?

Kunleoshob are you born again and received the holy spirit? I will like to know.