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 Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris: Love Without Limits by Joagbaje(op): 9:02am On Nov 20, 2010 |
Do something worthwhile with your time mister. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: RCCG Invite You All To December Holy Ghost Congress 2010, Jesus welcome you by Joagbaje(m): 8:43am On Nov 20, 2010 |
What is your issue with churches? Why have you taken Satan assignment as accuser of the brethren? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: How Do You Cast Out Demons? by Joagbaje(m): 8:36am On Nov 20, 2010 |
Oh , What a refreshing, |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 7:51am On Nov 20, 2010 |
Kunle , If I were rev king member, And I observe umbiblical practice , I will go to him, as bible says, . His response wil determine any other action. People like you are gullible of gossip. Thats why you do nothing but talk and talk. Tb joshua, your hero was once put in jail for drugs. But later cleared . While he wás in jail, people like you would have rejoiced that a chalartan and drug peddler is caught .Because you don't understand .that's why commit blunders with your mouth daily. Did I defend the man? I condemn the acts .Did I blame press.? I thought you went to school , why not read the post again. I don't know the man. An I haven't formed an opinion. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 6:37am On Nov 20, 2010 |
JeSoul: - A pastor within a church cannot be false - he will not last - the false ones are outside trying to bring down the structure inside - Mt 24:24 ("For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" - Rebuking of church leaders should come from the "top - down" not "down - up". We should go privately to them if we can or simply pray for them if we can't. Speaking out in public against men of God is against God's will and keeps potential people from getting saved - If a person can perform miracles using the name of Christ/a man calls Christ His Lord - then they are genuine christians - You'd rather not speak on adverts like I posted as you don't know the motives behind their actions, and some of the things they may teach may be helpful - but you prefer to avoid these kinds of issues (and thanks for replying on that too). Though I don't know where you are going with this interview, but I really appreciate your approach and conduct. I've not seen such display of maturity on NL. One last question - can you please respond to Kunle's last question (though I think we already know your answer). Thanks and we'll continue soon .When i read Rev king story, I wept and prayed for him. i know news report may not be accurate, and i know there could be element of truth. Haven known satan's strategies right from the bible days , I don't jump into conclusions quickly over ministers. Just for my soul sake. If im interested , i should do oroper investigation.Satan could be setting me up. So that I will offend with my mouth. I don't easilly accept negative report about ministers. It's not everything we read that are true. Some are lies , some are exaggerated. Every news has a purpose. Satan use the media to attack churches and ministers. He strikes at the shepherd so that sheep can scatter. The sheep is always the target. Stephen was stoned through accusations by FALSE WITNESSES. Jesus warned of false witnesses. He himself encounter them. For that reason , I am careful what I say about a man God is using. I don't know what he preaches , and what he believes . I would be able to rate him by that. The issue is for me to know .if I'm dealing with a Christian that has a problem, either it's demonic problem or character problem . He needs help. I don't condemn witches, I cast out witcraft out of them . Because there is an innocent person inside that body. If he did some of those things , I condemn the actions. But if he is a Christian, we need to help him recover from the error. Primarily by prayer. We should know we are dealing with people whom God loves, even in their errors. But if he is not of jesus christ, if he never knew christ. But came as an angel of darkness, well , his present condition serves him right. Ministers may make mistakes, but if we intercede for ministers, we can shield them from such satanic attacks or influences. I intercede for ministers a lot all over the world. I pray that the perfect light of God will shine into their hearts, knocking down every wrong doctrine issues that may not glorify christ, I pray against attacks of the enemy .that's what our responses should be for them . So for Rev king, I only know what I read in papers. If I have opportunity to hear him personally , I can have an opinion. I'm not justifying his actions. I condemn them if they were true. And I believe we can pray against workers of darkness and false ministers. Through our prayers , God will resist them and their influences and deliver people from their deceptions. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 9:58pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
@jesoul Concerning the advert and picture, you should know my stand on this. Until i know the mans purpose, I may assume wrongly. Some pastors are allowed to work while God would not allow some to work. It depends on their calling. If a man is moved by financial challenge of some pastors who would want to do business and may not know how to go about it. And such a man feel led to help them out Well, it depends. Paul had some business partners. So if this particular has an ulterior motive , I may not know. Some pastors are financially broke because they don't practise giving. I'm certain such seminars will deal with such issues. I always avoid issues like this but its because you asked . |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 9:37pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
@jesoul Joagbaje, no problem at all, respond as you're able to. We're all patient and will wait for you. You still have Q4 and Q5 from my last post and also the pictures/adverts. Thanks and enjoy your conference.I though I answered Q5 already :2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths" ------------- Based on the above, will you agree that it is possible that of the many world-known preachers/pastors (both Naija and abroad) some could be false and of the devil? And if this is possible to you, would you speak out against them if you knew of them?The subject of the matter is not the teachers but the brethren . The teachers being refered to here are not pastors of churches. But Paul is saying that brethren under a pastoral ministry will. Not want to be under padtoral leadership but rather freelance going after some vagabods who will tell them "itching things" these teachers are outside of the church. And not one , but many teachers . (passersbys) English Standard Version (©2001) For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, New American Standard Bible (©1995) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, You cannot accumulate pastors. You are under a shepherd . But these ones have many speakers who will tickle their fancies. It's not saying a pastor will change his doctrine. It only a "HIT AND GO TEACHER" that can do that. Remember paul talks about false teachers who will speak against pastoral office and structure. But we can't overrule the fact that some of these Teachers may attempt to pastor. But the issue is, if God didn't call you to pastor , there will be no ability from him. You can't sustain it. It's the ministry of the holyghost. We should not be looking at the church pastors as the false teachers but. The false teachers are outside. Roaming and trying to penetrate a church to win brethren . Timothy was already pastoring them , but the false one are outside. I understand what you're trying to communicate here but I'd like to press further -It's not ordained of God to be so. It is rebels and profane people that will think of that. It's against spiritual rules. A man that must have authority must respect authority. The issue is not either the leader was right or wrong . Even if he were wrong . We don't have right to speak against leaders in authority political or spiritual leaders. There are scriptural laid out rules. Exodus 22:28 28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. That's the same thing Paul was reminded of in acts23:1-4 Micheal would not even do it to Satan because of spiritual rank. Jude 1:8-10 8 Likewise also these[ filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 2 Peter 2:10-12 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous[ are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; Moses did something wrong, and when his elder brother and elder sister spoke about him. God was angry with them. He did not even talk about Moses offence! He was about to discipline them. We don't touch Gods anointed! If we feel a leader is doing something contrary to the word, we go to him privately and ask. Let him show us from the word. And you ought not to discuss that with another person first. You and him alone! Matthew 18:15-17 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear[ thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell[ it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. If God will be concerned about handling an offending brother , how much more a minister. Who you never gave opportunity to defend himself . We assume we know the motives and intentions of their hearts we are sinning . we rejoice in openly making mockery of the church of christ before the world. The men we attack on NL don't even get to read the post. So what have we achieved. It is the sinners outside we turn away from christ. We persecute christ ignorantly like Paul did. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris: Love Without Limits by Joagbaje(op): 4:53pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
@nwakaibe I'm there already o. It's been awsome. I'm touched by the testimony of that Korean minister. His accent was a little challenging though. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris: Love Without Limits by Joagbaje(op): 4:50pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
I'm there already o. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: How Do You Cast Out Demons? by Joagbaje(m): 4:36pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
metro10:There is hope for nAiralanders .thank you. Another aspect I feel is vital is to identify what kind of devil if there's need. (not always applicable anyway) |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 4:03pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
.@Jesoul I am in our annual partners conference, I only have between sessions to reply JeSoul:Jesus had ended his public ministry in chapter 23. But in chapter 24, the disciples came to him based on the prophecy in chapter 23. About the destruction of the temple etc. It was a Jewish question they asked him. Jesus was talking to them from Jewish perspective. The mistake many make is to equate the rapture with the second coming of christ. The rapture is not the second coming . The second communing will take place 7 years after the rapture. So when they asked him about his coming , they were talking about Armageddon . When Jesus will come with us from heaven to deliver israel at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Matthew 24:3-5 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what[ shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. So the "CHRIST" here ,or "THE ANOINTED" does not refer to anyone who says he is anointed. As some posters asserts .But a particular person. In relation to Israel. "THE MESSIAH" their messiah. A false messiah, the Antichrist. And his prophets. This is a middle east prophecy. So the idea that if any one claims to be anointed or perform miracles ,he is a false prophet is a wrong idea. The setting of the prophecy is jewish . They will embrace a false messiah, the antichrist ,Until the Antichrist will go into the holy of holies in the temple and declare himself to be God. This action will be resisted by jews and they will oppose him and he will turn to be their enemy.All these will be in the tribulation time. Matthew 24:15-16 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,( whoso readeth, let him understand  16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:This takes us to Daniel 9 Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks[ of years, or 490 years] are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city[ Jerusalem], to finish and put an end to transgression, to seal up and make full the measure of sin, to purge away and make expiation and reconciliation for sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness( permanent moral and spiritual rectitude in every area and relation) to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and to anoint a Holy of Holies. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until[ the coming of] the Anointed One, a Prince, shall be seven weeks[ of years] and sixty- two weeks[ of years]; it shall be built again with[ city] square and moat, but in troublous times. 26 And after the sixty- two weeks[ of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed [/b]and shall have nothing[ and no one] belonging to[ and defending] Him. And the people of the[ other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed. a 27 And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week[ seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease[ for the remaining three and one- half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations[ shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator. So we can see that it's a Jewish discourse here by Jesus . Talking about the tribulation of the jews .If we look at the chapter in that light we will comprehend it more. [b]Matthew 24:20-31 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: This is because the Jews can not travel more than certain kilometres on a sabbath . By the time the Antichrist who had chime as a Jewish friend and messiah now turns to hunt them down. They will be looking for another messiah. Several people will claim to be their messiah. 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 [b]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here[ is] Christ, or there; believe[ it] no[/b]t. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if[ it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold,[ he is] in the secret chambers; believe[ it] not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the [b]tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [/b]30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The appearance of "THE SON OF MAN" here is not rapture. The whole world will not see the rapture. It's only a disappearance within a second " twinkling of an eye" but the second coming of christ , which is 7 years after the rapture will cause the armaggedon, the whole world will see him.His elects here are the remnant which shall be saved in the great tribulation time. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 12:23pm On Nov 19, 2010 |
nuclearboy: |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 9:48am On Nov 19, 2010 |
@nuclearboy nuclearboy:I didn't say you are not Christians, and I didn't say you are either. I said you guys don't act like Christians . I don't have right to say someone is not Christian until I know what he believes. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 9:59pm On Nov 18, 2010 |
@jesoul, JeSoul:It will be nice to deal with a case study. What is the perversion. A man says you shouldn't touch a sister even in greeting. If an usher wants to call a lady he should not use hand to touch her, he should use a pen to touch her. Because the bible says. " it is good for a man not to touch a woman. [color=#990000]1 Corinthians 7:1(kjv) 1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me:[ It is] good for a man not to touch a woman. But the word touch there means something else entirely. ( marriage ) 1 Corinthians 7:1 (amplified) 1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. It's simply an issue of wrong understanding. Yet they have built a doctrine on that misunderstanding, people seem to be in a kind of bondage over it. But the man is called of God , will you call him false ? Several people will fall into classification of false hood . So you have to really break it down. A false man as far as i know , is a man that is not a Christian. Yet trying to do Christian things. I watch a telecast where a lady, Confessed that she was bla bla under the sea. They use peoples earring and necklace to draw them to hell fire! . The next thing the pastor announced that they should remove their ear ring and chains . Some gave them to ushers others refused. Should I call him false? . When I saw the miracles and the crowd ,and heard him preach, I know it's only the holyghost that can use a man like this. Who are we to be judging ministers. To his master he falleth or standeth. The question is, who is Jesus to him. Is he born again? Then what does he teach. A man from God must have a message from God. The calling of God upon a man must have evidence and signs. I'm not aware of a minister consistently miss it. He is certainly not a minister.If we are dealing with a Christian who wasn't called to ministry , yet he entered ministry for whatever reason. He will not have proof of Gods call. The works will naturally fade. Because he can't sustain it. It's the ministry of the holyghost . [/quote][quote]If a preacher consistently gets issues wrong, isn't it safe to say he has no idea what christianity is in the first place?[/color]I think rather he does not know what ministry is about. He need to ask God first if he's called . Q2: Do you believe the devil's agents can also perform miracles? How does this affect your reply above? Does the fact that a person can perform miracles certify them as genuine christians? Do you believe a person can claim to be performing in the name of Jesus but infact be performing by the power of the devil?I have read all manner of thing in books . But the word of God is our final authority. Two things are clear. No one can say Jesus is his lord and not be a Christian . [color=#990000]1 Corinthians 12:3 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and[ that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. And no one that is of the devil can cast out devils or performs miracles in the name of Jesus. The name only answer to a Christian. Matthew 12:24-26 24 But when the Pharisees heard[ it], they said, This[ fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? . . . . .I will respond to the other issues later pls. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 5:21pm On Nov 18, 2010 |
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| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 4:31pm On Nov 18, 2010 |
@seyibrown seyibrown:It's a broad question because there are different levels of truth. There are lesser truths and greater truths. I will like to elaborate on it in another post. But in a nutshell i will say truth is anything that is consistent with Gods plan and provision for us in christ Jesus .if the teaching of a man is not consistent with what Christ has done for us, he is not preaching truth. 2. What about teachings that justify 'unholiness' on the basis of the 'needs of the flesh' and take the focus way on following the 'spirit'?You have to be specific for me to understand you. Anyone teaching to justify unholiness is teaching heresy and should be rejected. I don't know what you mean by "needs of the flesh" God does not want us to walk in the flesh or fulfil desires of the flesh but to walk in the spirit. 3.How do we go about pointing out that that teaching is not of the 'spirit' but of the flesh to prevent christians from going astray without offending the preacher who feels 'persuaded by the word of God' about his teaching?There is deference between condemning a doctrine (if there need be) and condemning a preacher. People could teach wrongly for several reasons. Ranging from lack of knowledge , limited truth to demonic perverted doctrines. We don't need to attack the preacher . If there is opportunity , we discuss issue ps with the person. Just like Priscilla and aquilla help appollos out in his wrong doctrine. They didn't abuse him. They did it in the humble bible way. And the holyghost won. Acts 18:24-26 24 . . . though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. 4. Is it wrong to point out that a teacher's persuasion is wrong based on our own persuasion on matters where the teacher directly or indirectly encourages 'unholiness' ? If it is wrong to point out, How do we approach such things without being labelled as speaking against men of God?It depends on the case we are dealing with. If he brings such doctrine to you, you correct him. But if he is teaching his congregation it's not our place to attack such.If you feel he is wrong. Your only Christian duty is to intercede for such. And you have to be sure you are right. Because people have fought truth unjustly thinking they are right. There was a time that wearing a short sleeve shirt by a man was termed a sin. Not to talk of women trouser etc. Playing instrument in churches like drum set was once termed worldly. They called it DISCO DRUM. body spray and perfume were termed carnal And so many. Everyone felt he was right to condemn the other. Paul said let every man work by his conviction. Some people may have lower knowledge of truth. But Paul says Mot to judge them, if God has received them. Romans 14:1-6 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,[ but] not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day[ alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth[ it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard[ it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. But if they bring such doctrine to us in ignorance , we correct it in love. Those who attack other ministers on tv, newspapers and Internet have not prove they know the lord. Because prospective souls would be turned away from making decision for christ by these selfish acts .as they watch the church wash dirty linen in public. We should correct privately like they did in acts 18. Acts 18:24-26 24 Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. But if you pastor a church and someone brings a wrong doctrine. You have every right to protect your sheep. By openly rebuking it ,like Paul did to peter. That's your jurisdiction and you owe the sheep a responsibility as their pastor. But it's still depend on the case. There are people one has to warn 1 or 2 times Before taking pastoral action against them. Titus 3:10-11 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 1:52pm On Nov 18, 2010 |
JeSoul:God didn't give us such responsibility to be searching for false ministers. He gave us the responsibility of reaching the sinners for him. But the issue of false ministers is only relative to your personal Christian life . Just incase one comes your way.who should you receive ? We should you listen to? . He didn't say we should go about hunting for them. That's the error of many today. Theyve left the primary assignment of the church .And incidentally wrongly accuse innocent people many times Just because of doctrinal differences. The false minister is man that teaches another doctrine rather than the gospel of christ. Especially judaism infiltration into the church those days. You know them primary by what they profess . The fruits of their doctrine. Paul allso encountered philosophers . But A man from God speakes the word of God. The message is the no.1 way to know who is a minister of christ, What is his concept of christ. Who is Jesus to him. A demon can't call Jesus "his" lord. They will confess that jesus didn't come in the flesh . And that Jesus didn't resurrect bodily 1 John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that[ spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2 John 1:7 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist Jesus also spoke of how many will come to Him on the last day claiming to have performed miracles and signs in His name - Jesus said He never knew them.That doesn't make them false ministers. We have to be clear on this issue. The fact that they cast out devils means they are genuine Christians. You can't cast out devils if you are not of him. Mark 9:39-40 39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is on our part. So whatever the problem the individual has why christ rejected him is between him and christ. Not our business. Maybe he was doing certain things aginst Gods instruction. He didn't fulfil Gods purpose. Or his will. Who knows. Paul's said he had to check himself too. 1 Corinthians 9:27 27 But I keep under my body, and bring[ it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. So it's a personal thing the problem is not because someone cast out devils. Whatever will make a man miss it is between him and his master. A man that is not a Christian can not cast out devil in the name of Jesus. Matthew 12:24-26 24 But when the Pharisees heard[ it], they said, This[ fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Jesus also spoke about "great leaders/teachers" leading many astray - [/color]It would have been helpful to quote particular scriptures. We can look it up in context. But if we are dealing with a real fasle minister.The scripture is clear on their end. We allow God to do his own , as we focus on their own. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such[ are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore[ it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according we to their works. They cannot last. THEY HAVE AN END. our duty is to preach Jesus. The passage is not for the church. This is for the tribulation saints among the Jews who are still awaiting their Jewish messiah ( the christ) satan will sent to them other false christs as the messiah .The church would have Been raptured before they are made manifest . The Antichrist and the reminat of Israel . Which is what he refered to as THE ELECT. Not the church. But of the Jews during tribulation. 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to mythsPaul had issues with many philosophers and speakers in his days. He's not talking about ministers of Jesus . But rather warning tímothy against the attitude of brethren who may soon reject Timothy teaching and follow philosophers who teach in the theatres. Acts 17:18-21 18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. 19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest,[ is]? 20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. 21( For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.) Q2: Related to Q1. How do you seperate a false brother from a brother who is speaking out against falsehood? Because both would appear to be "causing division in the church" or "speaking against men of God", how do you know the difference as Jesus Himself could have been accused of causing division in the "church" by challenging the Pharisees and other accepted leaders of the time.No matter the intention , no one has right to cause division in the church. If there is any issue, especially in a local church. You simply go to the pastor. For clarification. If he refuse to see things your way, you pull out to a ministry where your soul is blessed. (that's if you are right). Some churches wash feet, some believe it's wrong. Some even baptise for the dead. So if the practice there is contrary to your convictions . You should leave quietly . I have left some churches quietly till I found my place. And the fact that I may not be satisfied with some practises does not make them false. They only walked in the little light they had. I embrace the greater light. And I have been blessed by 1or2 things there which i should be grateful for.But I don't have right to pollute another mans sheep. Because they call the name of christ their. This is why some churches divide over doctrines. I rather labour in prayer. To end wrong doctrines. I was once a member of CHURCH OF GOD MISSION. I even enrolled in the bible school ALL. NATIONS FOR CHRIST BIBLE INSTITUTE. I had to do industrial attachment in a church. So I did my I.T in LAST DAYS MESSANGERS MISSION. one of the churches they call "holiness church" because they tie scarf , no make up etc. I handled the youth there and few occasion, the pastor gave me opportunity to minister whenever he travels. I once asked a sister why she doesn't wear make up . She said " our church no go gree" I asked if she likes it, she said yes! . I asked the pastor later. Why those who like make up can't do it. He said he doesn't have anything against it but it's the system. My point is , in the few opportunity the man granted me which I was grateful for. I never once took advantage to poison the members against their system. The little discussion I had , I told the pastor myself. So that the spirit of God will not start resisting me. There is orderly way to do things in Gods kingdom . He doesn't need radicals to change things. He us the holy spirit he knows what to do. Doctrines in churches have been changing over the years. We shouldn't do the job of holyspirit . Q3: Jesus is famous for using scathing words against the Pharisees on a few occasions - calling them white-washed tombs, brood of vipers/serpents, blind guides etc also some of the NT writers had strong words for false teachers. Going by your submission above, do you see any instance in our time where the need for strong scathing language against the false leaders would arise? Since Jesus and the early leaders actively did it?[/Jesus was anointed messiah and apostle , not a church member. Rebuke comes from top down . Nit from down up. We can air own opinions if there's forum for it but not in insults and curses and abuses. This is satanic. James 3:13-17 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. 17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace- loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. I'm sure many will agree there is the need to communicate the truth with love. And this bounces back to my Q3 -Paul tried it too but when he realised that the person he insulted was the high priest ,he apologised . Despite the fact that the high priest mis behaved . There are spiritual laws that maturity should not allow us to break. Acts 23:2-5 2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. 3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee,[ thou] whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? 4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? 5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 7:18pm On Nov 17, 2010 |
^^^^ Sorry o. But you know it wasnt speculation. I was just making an illustration. But I wish we can leave the petty things of the post and focus on the big picture being communicated. |
| Christianity Etc › Pastor Chris: Love Without Limits by Joagbaje(op): 2:57pm On Nov 17, 2010 |
Ephesians 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God” Here, the Apostle Paul, through the Spirit lets us know how important it is for us to comprehend the immensity of God’s love; His boundless love, which can only be grasped by revelation. Thus, he prayed that by the help of God’s Spirit, God’s people would comprehend the limitless dimensions of the Father’s love: its length, and depth, and height. Paul wasn’t just referring to having a mental knowledge or understanding of God’s love when he used the word “comprehend” in the scripture above. Rather he used the Greek word “katalambano” which means to understand something and make it yours; to make it your present reality! Scientific knowledge of human mental activity can’t grasp the love of Christ. That’s why the Spirit of God, through the Apostle Paul, prays that you’ll be able to comprehend the boundless, immeasurable and unconditional love the Father has towards you. It’s love without limits. God loves you! As simple as this truth may sound, if you dare believe it, and let it sink deep into your consciousness, it will change your life forever and give you a new confidence. God’s love is the greatest power in the universe. No wonder the Spirit of God, through the Apostle Paul prayed “…that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:17-19). Get secured in the Father’s love; take advantage of the fact that He loves you with an everlasting love (Jeremiah 31:3). He loves you as though you were the only one on earth! Thus every morning when you wake up, say, “Thank you Lord, for loving me so much, without limits!” |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 12:34pm On Nov 17, 2010 |
OLAADEGBU:Maybe I'm wrong . But when I attended deeper life breifly in the 80s I've forgotten the particar year. it was the year the name of the church was changed . Male and female used to sit differently, no dancing in worship etc. But I won't be surprised if that has changed now. Afterall the members now are allowed to have television now. I was glad when I saw pastor kumuyi on tv . And that's really my point .it is christ that does this things by the hlyghost. As we pray for ministers and churches . The holy spirit begins to take away the doctrines that are not word based. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Is The Rapture Pre-, Mid Or Post-trib? by Joagbaje(m): 10:22am On Nov 17, 2010 |
I believe it is pre tribulation, however I read a book some months ago that claim it's mid tribulation. Well I don't mind hearing the views of others , for the purpose of study. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 7:12am On Nov 17, 2010 |
JeSoul:The bible talks about false teachers and false brethren coming into the body of christ. They are individuals that Satan lay hold on in the church. To penetrate and poison the body with polutions. These individuals will attack structures in the church, speak against men of God , try to win peoples approval by claiming they are fighting for the masses. . 2 Peter 2:1-3 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. Jesus had laid structures in his body, but these individuals will go against such word based structures and thereby deny his lordship by rejecting the authority of the word. throu 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of These are individuals that brings public shame to the body of christ. They will have no respect for authorities in the church. 2 Peter 2:10-13 10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous[ are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. [/b]11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. They say evil things about what they don't understand 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, [b]speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; The first sign of these self acclaimed Jude 1:16-19 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling[ words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Q2: Related to Q1. Do you believe there are false churches out there?No, there is no false church but there can be false doctrine and false brethren in the church. And the word of God has rules . what should be the body's attitude to them? hostile or indifferent? do you believe we have/don't have an obligation to speak out against them? [/color]Firstly , what is falsehood .The fact that we don't agree on every doctrine should not make me call you false. Division in the body of christ is satins strategy, and many so called Christians are playing into his hand. There are a thousand and one doctrinal differences . But we ought to accept one another provideded we are born again. In one churches like assemblies or deeper life , it is wrong for men and women to sit together . But in CEC , house on the rock , they sit together. In one church , they can't shake hands with opposite gender, in another they not only shake hands they hug . Some even do holy kiss.( on the cheek) while to some it's abomination. All these differences have been there from the beginning of the church. Some eat all things , some don't. Romans 14:1-6 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,[ but] not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day[ alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth[ it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard[ it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. So on what ground do we call someone false? By our limited knowledge or by the word. And if we believe a minister has false doctrine . Our first responsibility is prayer to get him out of the mess. And if we have opportunity. We share with him in love to see the errors . Just like was corrected by pricsilla and her husband acquila (acts18:24-26). And we don't correct with insults and abuses . Because if you become judgemental , you set a trap for yourself. James 3:1 1 Dear brothers, don't be too eager to tell others their faults, for we all make many mistakes; and when we teachers of religion, who should know better, do wrong, our punishment will be greater than it would be for others. Fowl language against the church, or ministers is a big error. "despising dominion" right from Old Testament to the new. Not even ministers alone . Even brethren . You don't call Gods people a name their father has not called them. That doesn't make us more spiritual. Your spirituality is first evident in your speech. That is the error some posters here have entered without knowing. James 3:9-16 9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet[ water] and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so[ can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who[ is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but[ is] earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife[ is], there[ is] confusion and every evil work The bible says every body should be persuaded in his own mind. Why will you condemn someone for his persuasion in the Word? let the master judge him. Can we escape God? If there are false ministers , God says we should not listen to them.especially if he contradicts Pauls teachings. Paul says the curse of God will be on the fellow. Not my curse or abuse not Kunle curse. How I'm I certain I'm right in the first place to judge and condemn a minister whom God has accepted. Those who do such only prove that they are children in spiritual understanding. Our first duty is to pray against such evil doctrine. It is against the rules even in evangelism to attack other faiths and especially, the leaders. When you communicate truth without the spirit of love , you've lost it, But talking about the body of christ ,What do we do? Two things . We pray and we teach the truth.then leave the rest for God. Jesus knows what to do in his body . In our bid to take laws into our hand . We work against christ himself. And destroy the body we feel we are protecting. Jesus gave us clear outline here. Matthew 13:24-30 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. I think this scripture is more than enough for everyone of us. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 10:09pm On Nov 16, 2010 |
@kunleoshob KunleOshob:So what falsehood did you find in the messages? |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 6:41pm On Nov 16, 2010 |
@kunleoshob But you hardly know what CEC. Message is. You judge by hearsay . You should have made effort to find out. And then judge it by he word of God. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 6:18pm On Nov 16, 2010 |
JeSoul:It would have been better if you deal with a particular scripture to explain the point. I have preached both I know the difference Your sins shall find you out The soul that sinneth shall perish You cannot escape the fire of hell and BRRRRIMESTONE! ( the "r" of the brimestone used to be so sweet to call). I have preached the two sides and i know that scaring people to salvation does not build a lasting relationship. It is build on religious fear of terror. If such people hear that there is no more hell. They will be dancing on rhe street. I have been in some churches and i know the message that works. I didnt say we shouldn't talk about hell and sin. They are all part of the word of God. The problem is the way of communication. There us a way I can correct someone and he happily learns and there's another way I intend to correct but only succeed in making the person condemn. God is love and he wants people to know that. He is not trying to damn people to hell. They are damned already. He wants them to know his love has made provision for them . That's what the gospel message if for , that God has made a way out of the impending doom. And also he has called us into a life of dominion . Over sin, sickeness ,poverty and death. All these are in incapsulated in the life in christ. So our emphasis is the good news of the life in christ. Not how hot the temperature of hell is. The gospel means "good news " so it explains itself. The good news of what christ did for us. Q2: Furthermore, what do you say the primary message of the gospel is? Joel Osteen is a famous preacher who has mentioned he does not preach about sin because "people already know what they do wrong" and he "doesn't want to bring people down". What do you think about this? and what do you think about Joel Osteen in general? his style, his message, methods etc . . .It is against my convictions in the word God to criticise a man that God is using. Even if I dont understand him or believe in his structure. If Gods grace is evident in a man. I should be careful so that I don't sin. God knows why he chose him. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 10:36am On Nov 16, 2010 |
Enigma:I have said often ,that the person that doesn't understand Word of Faith is you guys. You label every thing you don't understand as WOF. There is no doctrine called Wof Doctrine. And if there's is I don't subscribe to it. I simply believe the bible for what it says. Pastor chris doesn't not believev in movement ir doctrine either . He teaches the message God has given him. But I believe in the word of faith . Which simply refers to speaking faith filled words into situation to bring the will of God to pass. That is not a special doctrine or movement. It is the word of God. The word of God is the WORD OF FAITH. Romans 10:8 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee,[ even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 1 Timothy 4:6 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. This is simply what the word of faith is about. But I agree that there was a time where the awareness was awaken in the body of christ of how you can change situation by speaking faith filled words. It is the religious mockers who labelled it a movement. The word of God has always been there. And the principles of faith filled spoken word has been in God tom beginning. So wof woofers labelling is nonsense based on ignorance. We can't argue with scriptures. God says we should be nourished in the words of faith. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 9:05am On Nov 16, 2010 |
@ Deep Sight Deep Sight:Thank you Deep Sight . But I don't think it's an issue of misunderstanding. Rather we have certain individuals that seems to be out for joeagbaje. Just because they are angry with pastor chris for whatever reason, so anyone who seem to be on pastor chris side should be rubbished. Take Kunle for example who advocate people should not give in churches but should only give to the poor. That's his idea of Christianity . When I did a thread on giving to the poor, guess what. He came in with his comrades to rubbish and detrail it. It is not about Topic now, ITs about personality. It doesnt matter my topic. Either it's "Jesus loves you" or "hell is real" they will look for something to attack. I have received several mails of commendation from people on NL. if I'm misunderstood at all , it should be few people. Especially those who have been influenced by Kunles camp. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 8:04am On Nov 16, 2010 |
[b][color=#990000]So would you say the fear of hell/damnation was the primary reason you decided to be a christian then?[/b]Also, I am curious about the bolded part above. What differences do you see between the message/gospel your sisters shared then versus the message/gospel shared today?[/color]The difference is between condemnation,fear and love. Salvation through fear is not a good foundation. And message of the love of God. My understanding is that God loves us and wants us to walk in love relationship with him. People already have sense of condemnation. And unworthiness . In themselves. Message of guilt and condemnation will not produce the relationship God wants. There will be outward religion but inward unrenewed. I delayed before because , I had though I could never get saved or be good enough for God. I had thought I could dive and capture any good person at the rapture and hold on to his legs. I was sure Jesus won't take me. In the days where you were made to believe that chewing gum is for ashawo or ashewo. And i was adicted to my Bazooka chewing gum also I used to roll paper and smoke with my friends behind one Capenter shop until we burnt his cupboard down by mistake through the firewood we hid to rekindle our paper cigaret (one of my sins) we couldn't own up who did it. So I couldn't face the fact of confession and admittance to that thing , my prayer was for God to forgive Satan. I kept asking. "can't God forgive Satan?" Many people today don't see God as love but as someone who is out to fish their sins out. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 7:51am On Nov 16, 2010 |
JeSoul:Yes , primarily, I got born again , partially through the fear of hell, but the main thing that terrified me in their message was the reign of the beast. I used to think the beast was a tall animal. They shared that in yoruba and called it "Eranko" ( animal/ beast) I remember asking , Cant someone climb the leg of the beast and hide under him? So I was more terrified about being left behind and being chased . Nowhere to hide , being caught and being torn apart by animals. I was told that my two legs will be tied to two different horses and as they run in different directions I would be torn apart. I was told that on the day of the rapture , thunder will strike from one end of heaven to the other, then there will be a loud alarm in heaven. So every time the formation of the cloud change , I would start praying for forgiveness. I had my childhood "sins". But the particular day I really gave my heart, the cloud was so dark, the wind was boisterous, then there were thunderings all over. And I heard a loud long alarm, not knowing that It was a police siren, I was convinced that the beast was coming that day , so I prayed. " PLEASE, JESUS, SAVE ME, I GIVE MY LIFE TO YOU. It was when I came out to see how many were left behind that I knew the rapture hadn't taken place and that it was a police siren car that was being repaired. Behind the barrack where we stayed in Ibadan (iyaganku barracks) my dad was police. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Interview With Joagbaje - His Perspective On Christianity by Joagbaje(m): 11:44pm On Nov 15, 2010 |
I had a religious background in a white garment church. But I got born again at the age of 9 through 2 of my elder sisters who had decamped into S.U. and foursquare . They shared with me about end time from time to time, they talked of the rapture, the anti christ and hell fire. That was the salvation message those days. I gave my heart to christ one day while it was about to rain, it thundered heavily,the cloud changed I felt the rapture was about to take place. . I was at home alone. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris: Prosperity By The Word by Joagbaje(op): 7:52am On Nov 15, 2010 |
NuclearBoy where did pastor chris steal millions? . |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris: Prosperity By The Word by Joagbaje(op): 7:50am On Nov 15, 2010 |
, KunleOshob:Kunleoshob , pastor chris is not a charlatan . He is a minister of God. I don't know why you will call a man of God charlatan . The fact that certain individuals made themselves enemy of a man of God doesn't change anything. Any great man will always have critic. Satan will stir up fabrications and false accusations etc. But all their accusation don't have facts. Just as the devil stirred people against Jesus. John 7:12 12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people. Critics don't really count. Whatever rubbish they write, anyone that sees it will only say, " that's an enemy of pastor chris" that's all. |
is not a scripture applicable to today's christians/church but rather the Jews in the end-times1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 (of 284 pages)