₦airaland Forum

ttalks:
Philip. 4:15-17
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. [16] For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. [17] Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

Did you disregard that part in bold above?

ttalks:
All the passages you gave above show one thing; that the givings were to meet needs; not to tap any anointing or whatever.

Zikkyy:
but there are other things under the law that are valid ,not because of the law but because they are based on spiritual principles in God.

Now you are adopting a spiritual approach. Your twisting the scriptures to justify mandatory tithing for Christians will not succeed here.

Zikkyy:
This has to do with a collection for the church in Jerusalem. Your quote above does not support the giving to God in tithes and giving to men of God in seeds. Let take another look.

2 Corinthians 9:10-11 - 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

Your quote above is better understood if you read verses 12-15 as well. You will find it has nothing to do with the pastor, as it’s obvious that’s your interpretation of verse 10 & 11.

2 Corinthians 9:12-15
12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

Paul here talks about the gifts sent by the Corinthians through the apostles to the recipient churches and the prayer of praise and thanksgiving to God raised on behalf of the Corinthians by the recipient churches. This is what Paul meant by ‘and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God’

Enigma:
@joagbaje

I repeat that it is such a pity that you just repeat wrong interpretations that the fraudulent "prosperity gospel" preachers use to deceive people. Unfortunately, you have been conditioned (oK I'll avoid 'brainwashed') to see Bible passages that have glorious spiritual importance in terms of the base, useless and frankly, quite pathetic, quest for "prosperity"

I take one example from your last post:

You only see "inheritance" there in terms of "prosperity" because you have been conditioned by the prosperity pastors to think in this unfortunate way; "inheritance" there refers to something far far far more glorious than earthly material prosperity. It really is pitiful that you think this way and very very very sad to see.

Enigma:
Let me give you one passage to "meditate" upon:

1 Cor 15:19 (NLT)
And if being a Christian is of value to us only now in this life , we are the most miserable of creatures

Zikkyy:
THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST IS ABOUT PROSPERITY IN EVERY WAY

2 Cor. 9:10-11
   Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness [11] Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

Exodus 20:12
    Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Ephes. 6:2-3
    Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise [3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Mark 7:11
    But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

aletheia:
See? You are just corroborating what I said:

Try to read your bible more:
1 Co 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

You demonstrate a pattern of behavior, to wit, poor hermeneutics and terrible exegesis.

aletheia:
What is thinking and what is meditation? Are they different?

Zikkyy:

I see that you have laid aside the ability to think hence your willingness to accept hook, line and sinker, whatever drivel is spouted out by the false teachers who call themselves MOG.

aletheia:
14 ways to become a charis-maniac "Christian"

aletheia:
1. Don’t interpret the Bible literally in its historical and grammatical context, but rather through the “in-season” word that comes from in your spirit

aletheia:
2. Forget learning about Church History since you are on the cutting edge of spirituality and everyone else didn’t have it r[url][/url]ight until 1906 at the Azusa Street Revival and thereafter

aletheia:
3. Neglect going to Bible school since you don’t need doctrine because it divides churches and you can know God by your own personal experience

aletheia:
4. Lay aside critical thinking since it has its place in almost every other aspect of life instead of matters of faith – who needs logic anyway?

aletheia:
5. Be sure to be blindly faithful to the heretical church you attend, since this is the way you can move up to a new spiritual level and be closer to God

aletheia:
6. Never correct your pastor or anyone else who has "spiritual authority" who may be in doctrinal error or moral compromise since you may be cursed by God for “touching the anointed”

aletheia:
7. Insist that you need to always see signs, wonders and miracles in order for you to constantly have faith

aletheia:
8. Whenever things don’t go your way or when something bad happens that you can’t explain because you don’t want to take time to think it through, blame it on the Devil, since everything bad in the world is his fault anyway

aletheia:
9. Whenever someone brings valid and scriptural criticisms against your pet preacher, tell them that they shouldn’t judge and ignore the fact that they may be under God’s judgment for leading people into sin and error

aletheia:
10. Make sure you learn how to speak in the “heavenly language” of unintelligible tongues since you may not be truly saved without proving to people that you can do it

aletheia:
11. When at church, be sure to dance ecstatically, shout to the top of your voice and act in a manner to draw attention from the worship on to yourself – since God doesn’t “move” in a church service without these things happening

aletheia:
12. Be sure to get slain in the spirit every time someone lays hands on you in prayer; you won’t “receive” unless this happens

aletheia:
13. Ensure that you are always in “that place” where you can get secret personal revelation from God that is not revealed and that contradicts Scripture

aletheia:
14. Before you follow any of the commands in the Bible, you need to have "confirmation" from a prophet, intercessor or a rhema word that you sense in your spirit

Zikkyy:
Can you support this with quotes from the New Testament? I would really appreciate this.

aletheia:
Good grief. May the LORD open your eyes!

Where does it say in that scripture that Jesus demanded money from any man? The message of the verses is clear yet you choose to ignore it and give it a twist that favors your gospel.

Enigma:
OK: why did Jesus not ask him to use the money to "move the gospel forward"? Why did Jesus not take the money from him for Himself - and say he needed it to "move the gospel" forward? Why did Jesus say he should give the proceeds to the poor -- - after all the modern fraudsters say do not sow into the poor because the 'anointing' into which you sow determines what you will reap?

Enigma:
You miss the point: you said the people in Hebrews 11 where OT people which is why they suffered; but if they suffered for the sake of Christ, then what is your point about them being OT. Remember also that they were being used as examples in the New Testament - the book of Hebrews; the author of Hebrews did not regard them as just "Old Testament" people!
[/qu, toote]

I didnt say they suffered (persecution) for Christ but for their faith especially the prophets

Enigma link=topic=307798.msg5320458#msg5320458 date=1263548645:
In relation to needing money to "move the gospel forward", are you familiar with a passage in the Bible where Jesus sent out his disciples to go out and evangelise BUT He told them not to take money or provisions? How did they manage to "move the gospel forward" then?

You are contradicting yourself here. Jesus told them not to carry money. because they are supposed to be supported. read it for yourself

Matthew 10:10
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.


You quoted a scripture that it is hard for a rich man to be saved
Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

I said earlier thaprosperity is different from covetousness or greed. The problem of the man was is inability to let go. He does not give. God wants us to be rich but not unto ourselves but to be rich unto God

Luke 12:20-21
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [21] So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Enigma:
Firstly, I have not insulted you --- even if I asked some questions with apparent sarcasm. Anyway to the key point: again, it is the[b] fraudsters[/b] who spin this lie that it is because of "sin" that a Christian (like the Jews you mention) would be poor; one G.O. who had told his victims that a previous year was a year of "open heavens" spun this lie the year after when most of his victims still struggled. Let me ask you this: the churches of Macedonia whom the apostle Paul clearly described as poor (and for whom he asked for a collection) ---- were they poor because of "sin"?

Enigma:
Let me ask you these questions:

1. Do you know how the following apostles died? Peter, Paul, Stephen?

Enigma:
2. Why did each one of those apostles suffer soooooo much for the sake of the true gospel of Christ?

Enigma:
3. Do you think that the apostle Paul was rich? Why did he have to do all kinds of work, including working as a tent maker?
4. Do you think these apostles were ignorant ---- for, why did they not simply practise the "prosperity gospel" to avoid poverty and to avoid suffering the way they did?

Enigma:
OK, let me help you a little bit:

1.
"Rich" both times in that passage does not refer to money but to "heaven" or "paradise" or the glory that is the kingdom of God; that is what Jesus abandoned to become poor on earth that we might be "rich" in 'heaven', in His kingdom.

You see why the "prosperity gospel is another gospel, a false gospel? While the word of God uses "rich" to mean 'spiritually rich', the false prosperity "gospel" want you to interprete it as "materially rich"; that way they hook you and they deceive you into believing that the way to get these material riches is by "paying tithes".
PS

Enigma:
NB do you notice another point? That passage says Jesus was poor; compare the false teaching of these prosperity fraudsters who keep saying Jesus was rich on this earth and you should be rich like Him since you are "the king's child"?

Enigma:
.
But you said those people in Hebrews 11 were "Old Testament" people and you are using their OT scriptures? OK, so they didn't know these OT scriptures that you are quoting? Or, did they all suffer as they did because they did not "pay" their tithes?

Enigma:
See verses 24-26 of that same Hebrews 11 talking about what Moses did for the sake of Christ --- even though Moses was, as you say, "Old Testament"?
Do you still think it makes a difference that the people in the Hebrews 11 were "Old Testament" people?

Enigma:
36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Oh yes, these people commended in Hebrews did not know the "prosperity gospel" of course, otherwise they would not have suffered these things!

Pastor AIO:
Mister Agbaje, if you can drink poison and pick up a poisonous snake with your bare hands, I swear I will never argue with you again, I will become your disciple. But until you do so in front of my eyes I will not believe that you even believe in christ because you don't have the full signs that follow those who believe.

Enigma:
36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Oh yes, these people commended in Hebrews did not know the "prosperity gospel" of course, otherwise they would not have suffered these things!

Enigma:
@ all


Our people are so blinded that they refuse to see the examples and the teachings of Peter, of Paul, of James of Stephen; people who made sacrifices; people who were the pillars on whom Christ built His church; people who never preached this insane "prosperity" nonsense; people who never preached "tithing"; people who never preached 'give to get'; people of whom this world is unworthy.


Hebrews 11:36-39

Oh yes, these people commended in Hebrews did not know the "prosperity gospel" of course, otherwise they would not have suffered these things!

Zikkyy:
There are some other verses in Hebrews 13 that might interest you, i will add some below

[i]5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said,
"Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you[/i]
16And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
My concern is i cant relate your quotes to tithing. Maybe you can help.

ogajim:
Are you saying i must tithe to receive certain blessings? Are you saying i am not financially secured if i dont tithe. How did you arrive at this conclusion Mr. Joagaje? Are you saying there are no financially secured non-tithers on the globe? I need to understand this better, educate me please.

Ephes. 6:2-3
   Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise [3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

ogajim:
Joe, please let us know which Church Bill Gates and Warren Buffet pay their tithe to as well. These are pathetic losers masquerading as preachers because of gullible folks they can defraud.
Stealing while holding a gun, constitution or the Bible is STEALING.

aletheia:
And the congregation of believers is. . .what?

Zikkyy link=topic=307798.msg5313732#msg5313732 date=1263469944:
Please don’t add to the bible.

It appears you still believe in the sacrifices offered by the Levitical priests. As long as you keep comparing the priesthood of Christ with that of men, we will always have this discussion.

Ask yourself what do priests do


1. Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
2. 1 Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
3. 1 Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Do you even understand what you read in your bible? Or are you just parroting rote responses from your MOGs? Or are you like the Israelites:

2 Co 3:14-17 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge;

aletheia:
And the congregation of believers is. . .what?

1. Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
2. 1 Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
3. 1 Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Zikkyy:
There is nothing wrong with you rendering a tenth of your income to the church if that is what you want to do (my personal view). But if you pay it because you are afraid God will punish you for non-compliance, it means you dont really know why you tithe.

I dont know about the blessing part.

Zikkyy:
Now we are talking about a new priestly office superior to the Levitical priesthood, and you justify your position with quotes concerning the Levitical priesthood. Na wa for you. There is no correlation between your quote from Ephesians and tithing.