₦airaland Forum

Becomrrich:
Joagbaje, if you know a pastor who is a barawo or ole, why would you want to give him any honour. Is every pastor a man of God. ? Every pastor is not a man of God. There are Pastors who are 419. Even Jesus told us so. even Jesus use to insult them, Jesus called them names. They were Pastors?

What is wrong with our nigeria society is we hate been critic? If I see Yar adua now and I disagree with Yar Adua, in Nigeria, they would send you to jail. But in America. if I critic Obama, you become a star, hollywood are looking for you. So you see the mind set of America and white people are different from us. They see been critic as a learning process, while Naija, even Pastor would send people to kill you for critic .

You guys are diverted the focus of this thread.  If a pastor commit murder,he is a murderer likewise if he kidnaps ,he is a kidnaper and should face the law not necessary as a pastor but as a muderer or kidnaper repectively.Now many Pastors are been labelled ignorantly as theivesnot because of any crime but because they teach principles from bible and people give money in churches. Based on the scriptures i gave ,  which backs up what they do in discharge of their duty and ministry , is it proper to call them thieves for teaching what is based on the bible.
Your argument for or against should be bible based  with reference to the scriptures i quoted in the opening or any relevant scriptures of yours.

This should be intelectual discussion and not the agbero style of " you they craze ,you dey mad , you dey gbongbolo siga"

texazzpete:
Interesting.
You gullible sheep hand over a huge portion of your monies to these people and they feed you with doctored bible passages to keep you docile. These are the same Pentecostal pastors whose sub-branches in Cross River are killing and torturing innocent children all in the name of child witchcraft. such evil is being perpetrated yet the PFN sits idly by.

You should present your points biblicaly and not emotionaly. We deal with facts here.
It is sad that you are mad us for giving  to God's work .There is nothing you can do about it because the church will continue to have money to spread the gospel. My pastor is on Tv touching lives with my money and im blessed.

texazzpete:
Jesus Christ gave at least 3 parables directly referring the need for Charity and caring for the poor. The early Christians were admonished by the apostles to sell all their belongings and give to the poor'.
Yet in today's church, Charity is given much less emphasis tha Tithing. Anyone who does more of Sowing seeds and tithes to the church than giving to the needy is totally wrong.

Your problem is ignorance .Because the church is the best way by which you can touch lives.Christianity is not you religious small minded idea of handling kobo kobo to poor.When we help the poor. We through our pastor help them in a big way.Collective effort is the key.

In the first place after  Jesus died there is no need for anyone to become poor again.

2 Thes. 3:10
    For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Ephes. 4:28
    Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

If your idea is giving kobo kobo to poor christians ,you are not helping anybody, We join our pastors to empower people through giving to start business, for scholaship. etc.The best way you still help the poor is through the church . First ,with the gospel. Because poverty is a spirit.

Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the [color=#000099]gospel to the poor[/b[/color]
[color=#990000[b]]Luke 7:22
    Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached [/color]


All the things im sharing with you are bible based .When there was challenge in the early church, pastors raised money to send relief to the brethren in Jesrusalem. It is still through the church you can reach others more effectively, by organised charity work. So why dont you call Paul thief  for raising such money. Those who are attacking churches and pastors are satan agents. undercover false brethren. turning away prospective souls from being reached by the gospel we have laboured for.


1 Cor. 16:2-3
    Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. [3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

A branch of our ministry built an a/c computer centre with about 100 computers.inside portharcourt prison We equiped a primary school with library materials worth 5 million naira!. PENTECOSTAL PASTORS ARE THIEVES.
While men of God are building lives  some of you sit down to tear them to pieces ,especially some of you that are supposed to be christians .Instead of finding your place in soulwinning, you use your little money to attack those who are doing the work that you neglected. have you not seeen what churches are doing? rehabilitating prisoners.reaching out to mothereless baby homes. etc.

are you really justify to call pastors thieves?

Pastor AIO:
By Saying that money is the medium of exchange today, you are implying that back in biblical times money was not the medium of exchange. If not, then what was. Kunle presumed that you meant that agricultural produce was the medium of exchange. To be honest it is a fair presumption. If he was wrong then please tell us, what was the medium of exchange in biblical times?

I didnt say they dont use money in bible days!. Did Abraham not buy land for use and bought slaves in shekkels, was Joseph not sold  with the price of slave?. I said earlier that people use money to buy items for replacement at the temple. Every male in isreal give money for maintanance of the temple.

People gave lambs,grain,oil, goat,cereals, for offerings  and tithes because those were the things God needed. for temple services.  You dont have to go over and over this again.

Pastor AIO:
Also another question. What do you think is the spiritual significance of eating? Why do you think we were told to bring out tithes to eat before the Lord?

well maybe you tell us ,Ive not done an indept study on this,I can only assume  its for fellowship, sharing etc.
But if your idea is concerning tithing,you are wrong there because there were different tithings back  then. The tithe people eat together is every  3 years and its different from the regular tithe of increase.

God didnt encourage anybody to remain poor among us,Every Pastor teach the members success principle. Nobody shoulb be a dependant in church. Everyone should go out there and make money.

2 Thes. 3:10
    For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Ephes. 4:28
    Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

tbaba83:
Scriptural bases? my friend u are the one speaking jargons. How can u compare Jesus to those thieves of God. u are seriously dillusional

Prove the difference.

Ikhilor:
Yes, most are crooks because they use every little or more offerings they collect "in church" on themselves,families and friends instead of doing the right thing and helping the needy in orphanages,social projects e.t.c. They,re sycophants feeding on the fears of the masses while at the same time promising them"followers" heaven somewhere else.To make matters worse, they live their own heaven here to the detriment of the masses"followers" and continually preach of another heaven reserved for the unsuspecting followers. indeed.

How do you come to your conclusion. You follow them to count the money, and to the bank to deposit and to withdraw from the bank and to shopping mall where you saw them spend it on themselves?
All these assertions are devlish attack against churches. Most pastors have their salaries approved by elders or committee whoever. Church money does not belong to pastors. Every good pastor recieve gift from people of their own free will. People have given pastors car, house ,etc. Pastor Adeboye acquired jet, did he use church money to buy it?. or gift.

A pastor is concerned about the welfare of members. Some give out scholarship . send gifts to motherless babies home.

If you know what ministry is, You will know that no crook can survive it. Why have you not all open churches in your garage ? Anyone that delve into  ministry for money sake has a devastating end.

2 Peter 2:1
   But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
It is Christ that knows who is who and will judge them. But you destroy inocent lives by attacking every "pentecostal" preacher because they teach on prosperity as though all about church is money.We give money to move the work of God forward. and any pastor that teach that is teaching simple basic  principles of success or prosperity . Sporadic condemnation is error. And it is not in any mans place to attack churches or Pastor.

tbaba83:
Nigerian Pastors are thieves. They feed on desperation of men

MrPrsdent:
they arent crooks

just stealing IN GOD'S NAME

Jagons as usual .what is your scriptural bases. The fact that you call them thieves doesnt make them one. People called jesus dupe .

John 7:12
There was a lot of discussion about him among the crowds ,Some said “He’s a wonderful man,” while others said, “No,he’s duping the public

Sprumbaba:
Abeg. How is the first fruit determined or calculated?

Some people get paid weekly, bi-weekly and monthly. And some yearly.

If I give a week paycheck as first fruit, not bad.
If I give a bi-weekly paycheck as first fruit, still not bad.
If I give a month paycheck as first fruit, some of my bills will suffer.
If I give a year paycheck as first fruit, that is the end.

Giving is not expenditure but an investment. You dont give to lose.The measure of your giving is your harvest.

Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Pastor AIO:
Actually, saying all 'pastors' in the pentecostal business are crooks and saying that not all pastors are crooks are not contradictory statements.

Not every pastor is in the Pentecostal business.

I have seen no one on this thread insult a man of God yet. I've seen crooks being called crooks. Please can you, Agbaje, write out for us a list of the MOGs that you think have been insulted. Thank you.

ps. Did you become a 'christian' because you thought it would be more lucrative than becoming an Imam?

How funny? no man of God was insulted , Yet you call them crooks. So the Ones you guys call crooks are Ahajis?.
So who do you recomend for us as a man of God.

KunleOshob:
I am yet to see any pastor that forsook everything thing as you wrongly assert above. That apart pastoring as now become one of the most lucrative and easy professions in Nigeria and all it's take to get called especially in the pentecostal fold is to just wake up one day and claim God has "called" you.

Has God made you a monitor to determin who and who is called.You that doesnt go to any church.

KunleOshob:
I Infact this would mean all pastors in the pentecostal business are crooks since they all preach one or more of these heresies. There are several warnings in the bible against false teachers and prophets who would use the gospel to make money from us and they were described as "wolves in sheep's clothing", Frauds, hypocrites and "destined for destruction" so if the bible already condenms them we are perfectly in order to describe them as crooks.

KunleOshob:
Besides nobody has said all pastors are crooks, but any pastor who willfully twists the word of God for the benefit of his personal greed is most definitely a crook. This categorizes all pastors who preach tithes, first fruits and seed sowing as big time crooks.

Be contradicting yourself .

That means Jesus was a crook too. and Paul was crook

Matthew 22:21
     Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.


Galatians 6:6-7
    Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

The bible is clear on tithes and offering. We do it as honour to God. If you eat your own offering and tithe , it is  not a reason to labell pastors as crooks. You are the crook being used of satan to rob men of thier blessing by holding back what is for God.

Proverbs 20:25
    It is a snare to the man who devoureth that which is holy, and after vows to make enquiry.

Proverbs 3:9
    Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

KunleOshob:
The bible even says that even the God's chosen ones, the very elect would almost be deceived by these criminals how much less the average Nigerian christian who doesn't study his bible and falls for such glaring scams like tithing due to lack of knowledge. Bros i would continue to call a crook a crook as long as the person in question shows the fruits of a crook be it pastor, bishop, G.O or whatever. a crook is a crook. :

KunleOshob:
Most of them are really smooth talking and sweet mouthed like a$$himolowo and that bleached crook called oyakhilome so we have to continually warn christians against them less they destroy more lives.

What else can one expect from a spiritual  vagabond who has no Pastor over him. Insulting men of God is one of the signs of antichrist.

Exodus 22:28
    Thou shalt not revile God, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

2 Peter 2:10
    But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Jude 1:8-10
    Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

You don't just twist scriptures, you twist other people's post as well by deliberately misquoting them to achieve your Antichrist campaign. I didn't say food was medium of exchange, nor trade by batter. Don't change my point of emphasis. I said they were predominantly farmers those days. They give to God of their farm produce. Among which God chose some to be accepted for thites , offerings, and firstfruit, because they were relevant in Gods house. They gave cereals, grains, lamb, goat.etc . Because they are being used in the temple for grain offerings , burnt offerings , sin offerings , etc. But it is not every animal God accepts, He does not take spotted , wounded , blind or unclean animal. So if rear Pig, Carmel , snakes or breed dogs you can't bring Them into the temple. But you can value them and pay money equivent and adding extral 5th part. And I said we can give material things as tithe as well if it can be of use in Gods house . I said I can give a laptop to my church if I recieve ten of them as gift . But a woman selling tomatoes or cassava may not
need to bring it in. Because it of no use, just like bible days. Since money is our medium of exchange, and God allow redemption by paying money , People give money and the church can use it for whatever the church needs. You give what will be of use.

aletheia:
1 Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

2 Pe 2:1-3 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

So did he say they are church pastors ? Did Paul say you should call every church pastor thieves for recieving money? . Is it unscriptural for them to receive Besides Paul is talking about apostates here. who will deny the lordship of jesus Christ. Does it mean If a pastor teach on giving, he has enter error? .

Annunaki

Annunaki:
Mr agbaje why don't you address the issues kunle raised concerning twisting of scriptures in dat jeremiah passage. It is obvious that food in malachi 3:10 is being twisted to mean money. Going by the jeremiah scripture, God says they are doing it cos of their greed and they are fraudulent. Now in your opinion is this not applicable to tithing as it is preached in today's churches considering food was twisted to mean money for the benefit [greed] of those preaching it? I would really like know your views on this. Pastor tonye is also welcome to address the issue.

Food was not twisted to mean money,Money is our medium of exchange. They gave of fruits ,crops etc then, but not all were acceptable, Unclean animals were unacceptable, You cant bring pig to the temple,or Ass. Even in the Old testament , there is provision to redeem with money equivalent of animals that are unworthy and for man.

Leviticus 27:11-13
And if it be any unclean beast, of which they do not offer a sacrifice unto the Lord, then he shall present the beast before the priest: [12] And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be. [13] But if he will at all redeem it, then he shall add a fifth part thereof unto thy estimation.

Besides we work primarily for money, So money is the harvest, You pay tithe from the harvest.(MONEY) A man can still give materials if it will be of use in the house of God. If someone gives me 10 laptops. I can send one to the church. It will be of use but Icant send ice cream to church.So if a man deals on cassava, instead of bringing cassava as tithe he sells it and give money equivalent.

Annunaki:
Mr agbaje, the bible calls some of them "frauds" in jeremiah 8:10, which is similar to calling someone a thief. I asked you a question on the other thread b4 you scampered off. Kindly go and address the issues raised there.

Jeremiah 8:10     Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

This does not refer to pastors of Churches. but Old testament priest

Annunaki:
I was watching pastor chris on tv yesterday, as usual he was begging for tithes, first fruits and seed sowing.

He has never begged,

A pastor is a man that forsook everything to answer the call of God, Some resigned from great positions turned their back on offers and opportunities so as to answer Gods calling. They changed men lives for the better , heal the sick cast out devils and brought the best out of people by the teaching of Gods word , He labours in prayers and intercession for the members and others.

Several attacks have come against them in the execution of their priestly ministry. especially in the area of finances.
Tithes Offerings, Prophetic Seeds etc.

firstly the church money does not belong to the pastor, He has his salary or allowance and also he receive other gift of appreciation from those who have been blessed by him.

Galatians 6:6-7
    Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

1 Tim. 5:17-18
    Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

When a pastor ask people to give , Is it not for their own prosperity? We receive by giving as Jesus taught us

Luke 6:38     Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. That's why a pastor is anointed.His anointing cause people to be blessed by giving through him or to him.

Numbers 18:8     And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

[color=#990000[b]]Philip. 4:15-19 [/b]
    Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. [16] For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. [17] [color=#000099]Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.[/color] [18] But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. [19] But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. [/color]

2 Cor. 6:10
   , "as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

Jesus  received money from people.How was he able to take care of12 men and their family, chatter boats etc

Luke 8:2-3
    And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, [3] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Our  pastors can't do the work of God  well without the funds. Jesus was criticised also for receiving money from people.

[b]John 7:12([/b]Living Bible)
There was alot of discussion about, Some said "he's a wonderful man" while others said, No, he's duping the public
I am not aware any pastor will force anybody to give.They only teach us the word of God. we have the choice to obey or not.

SO IS IT REALLY RIGHT TO CALL THE MEN OF GOD THIEVES?

faar to see

@ KunleOshob
The response was meant for another post of yours , not this one. Well it's still a message for you anyway.

KunleOshob

KunleOshob:
Preachers like tonye-tithe and agbaje who gleefully twist scriptures have existed since old testament times, read what God has to say about such preachers below and the reason they twist scriptures:

Jeremiah 8:8-10:

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise because we have the word of the Lord,”
when your preachers have twisted it by writing lies?
9 These wise preachers will fall
into the trap of their own foolishness,
for they have rejected the word of the Lord.
Are they so wise after all?
10 I will give their wives to others
and their farms to strangers.
From the least to the greatest,
their lives are ruled by greed.
Yes, even my prophets and priests are like that.
They are all frauds.

In your hypocricy ,you are just so desperate in justifying Your anti christ and anti church campaign that youre ready to twist anything. Look at yourself you are so desperate that you dont even have enough patience to check up the new scripture you just "discovered" .This scriture is about political leaders in israel.and not church pastors. Just because you saw "PASTOR" You eye is bulging. You are busy pasting it all over nairaland, taking advantage of ignorant people more ignorant than you. This your fruitless campaign is not about tithe and offering. You are just mad at Church because you dont belong to any . You dont have a pastor and you want to make others fatherless like you. Either you guys like it or not, The church will prosper, The work of God will move forward, as long as people like us are there ,pastors will continually have money to reach out to the world. Those who are doing nothing for Christ and are busy critisizing those who aree producing result for jesus will fail. Souls will be saved ,Devils will be cast out, the sick will be healed, .The name of Christ will be magnified in all world, through TV,Radio, internet,satelite books and tapes ,ipod,mp3. Then Jesus shall come.He will praise us for the work we have done through our giving and partnership.

HE WILL PRAISE YOU FOR FIGHTING HIS CHURCH AND MAKING MOCKERY OF THE MEN HE IS USING?

jpworld:
Church himself is a fraud, all pastors are fraudsters, Bible is a fraud, Jesus never came to this world, If Jesus truly visited this world as bible claim,
why was our fore fathers not aware, until the 18th century, after 1800 years of Jesus coming, then they visit Nigeria to tell us the news, why not couple of years after Jesus came, what take them so long alert us, what even make Jesus not to alert Africans of his coming, why was our fore fathers blacklisted, http://www.thebiblefraud.com/

Shey i said it You guys have hidden agenda. Your attack is not just against tithe or offering. It is the church you are really after, Try to make people lose faith in every pastor so that you can achieve your ultimate aim.

WOLVES IN SHEEP CLOTHINGS!    I HAVE A WORD FOR YOU,

Matthew 16:18
   And I say also unto thee, I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Annunaki:
Mr agbaje what I find people to be arguing about is the wrong teachings of compulsary tithing and not tithing itself per se. You cannot justify twisting scriptures on the excuse you are giving God something he doesn't need.

God never needed anything, not even your prayers or worship. but why do you worship ?It is your honour for him.Our tithe offerings prayers thanksgiving are our act of worship to God. The issue is not what God does with them but our denial and sacrifice. One of te ways God judge our greed is in our attitude to money.

Mark 12:42-44
And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. [43] And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: [44] For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

She gave the most because of the denial of self sacrifice. That is honour to God . what will he do with her mites!. but But she shall be blessed for conquering covetousnes the none tithers are strugling with

@Enigma
You gave me certain scriptures to meditate on.And what i felt you were suggesting Being heavenly minded and also that our inheritance is in heaven.and also that our inheritance is not material wealth. My understanding is That we have inheritance in God ,We are called to inherit blessing. This spirirual blessing also manifest in material things ,and immaterial. health, favour , peace , joy etc being succesful on the earth is not materialism.

Enigma:
Ephes. 1:18-19
   The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, [19]

This does not however suggest inheritance in heaven in the future

Enigma:
1 Cor. 2:9-12
   But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

This also does not mean inheritance in  the future in heaven. The blessing of God is now here for us. Caarefuly look at verse [10]
, But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: , . [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
As you can see here above ,it is a present hour reality . and not for future. we have recieve the holyghost so as to know what God has given us already
Look at the words of Jesus. He didnt say we should give out and become broke

Mark 10:29-30
   And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, [30] But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Enigma:
Col. 3:2
   Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

This is an absolute fact , and that is why we give our possesion recklessly for the Gospel, we are not attached to material possesion .

Enigma:
Quote from: Joagbaje
Paul was not a Pastor over a local Church . He would not recieve tithes from them. People give tithes in the local assembly where they recieve the word of God. They had pastors in these local churches that recieves the tithes , The local churches send money and suppot to Paul sometimes.

You are now adding to Scripture

I am not adding to scriptures, Paul was an apostle ,He started churches  but was not directly pastoring them. he had pastors that were ministers in these churches.They take tithes and offerings in these churches but Paul himself was not directly involeved with the day to day running of these Churches .

1 Cor. 9:11-13
   If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. [13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

afiq:
Since we are no longer under the Old Testament Law, we are not required to measure out a tenth of everything we earn and pay it to the Church.
On the other hand, since everything we have comes from God, and since God has supposedly written His Law on our hearts, we should be quite thoroughly generous.

There are different levels in Christ, We speak in Children language to Children.the tithe is foundational but in reality, All i have belong to the father. some of us have moved beyond tenth ,because its too small to offer to God,That is why it blows my mind why some are struggling and fighting over tenth,

I dont believe this post. I dont think a pastor will demand firstfruit for his pocket.Whatever you give to God through the Pastor in Churrch is for the church. What belongs to the pastors pocket is his salary or allowance and whatever individuals are led to give him according to the bible

Galatians 6:6-7
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

1 Tim. 5:17-18
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. [18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

But for the first fruits ,it belongs to God. There is someting about the first. Even nature teaches us that.First born in the family, first salary, first profit etc. You can just eel it in your heart. There is something special about the first

God is first and everything first belongs to God. From first born son to the firstling our harvest in the farm.Satan always desire that which belongs to God. he comes after firstborn to destroy them
Some take it to their parents to pray for them etc because they feel it is special. It belongs to God.Some business men will not joke with the first customer that comes in, they may even sell things cheap for him instead of loosing that FIRST money that day.

Proverbs 3:9
Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Exodus 23:19
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Israel was a type of the Church, God regarded the whole nation as firstborn. He fights for his firstborn.

Exodus 4:22-23
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: [23] And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

FIRSTBORN FOR FIRST BORN!

Moses had strange encounter with God once when he refused to circumcise his firstborn .God wanted to kill him
Exodus 4:24-26
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. [25] Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. [26] So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

The Church of Christ today is in the firstborn family

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

When we sanctify the first God blesses the rest
Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Fisrt fruit is not by force , its a thing of faith. What is firstfruit to an Okada driver? :First passanger ? first day income? first icome of the first week, income of the first month. It depends on individual's faith. But first fruit is not for parents in the village!

@KunleOshob

KunleOshob:
1 Cor. 9:13-14
   Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Paul could also have been referring to temple tax as money ordained by God for those who minister in the temple, below are some scriptures that deal on that.

Apparently it was temple tax being used to maintain the temple and NOT tithes as some scammers would like us to beleive and the passage above makes it clear it was a commandment of moses and not God.

Above make us realize that this tax was an annual one [not monthly or weekly], it was a flat fee not based on income and it was a relatively very small amount of money. [probably why the scammers don't quote it   ]

The passage below shows us that even though our Lord Jesus christ was recorded to have paid this paltry temple tax, he did not regard it as important and he only paid it to avoid trouble with the pharisees

Be a honporable and honest man. This is tithe not temple tax. The Temple taxes were strictly for the maintainance of the temple.not for welfare of priest.The only portion the priest have was tithes and offerings of the people.

Numbers 18:26
   Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.

Numbers 18:8
   And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

Malachi 3:10
   Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

That is the reason Paul made reference to it.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
   Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
So dont start twinsting scriptures here.

TEMPLE TAX KO, TEMPLE TAX NI

ogajim:
Joe, Answer these questions:

Where is the Christian Temple today?

Why is there for another priest when we have the HIGH PRIEST and Christians are in the Royal Priesthood?

Was Malachi speaking to Gentiles?

Had Jesus Christ come when Malachi spoke the verse you guys love to quote?
Shalom!

There is no point asking this qustion exccept you have an intention to mislead.
The temple represents the house of God, It also represent, the place of worship, It aslo represent the pressence of God.
The Body of believers today represent the temple. (thats probably what you are waiting for).The Pace where christians gather together is also the the place of Gods pressence, The house of God.

Matthew 18:20
   For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

1 Tim. 3:15
   But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


The things of the old testament were according to the haevenly one,thats why Paul could make reference to them.they are based on heavenly law.

Hebrews 8:5
   Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The Christians are royal priesthood,that doesnt mean they should not be other anointed people over the in the priests office. The nation of Israel also were all together Priests unto God but they still had preists above them.

Exodus 19:6
   And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


Hebrews 13:17
   Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

ttalks:
Mr. Agbaje, where is your response to this?

One thing that has become pretty clear with you tithe advocates is that when we burst your bubble on one part you forget about it and jump to another part;

I dont jump anything , because the bible is clear, Except if i miss the question by the reason of attending to so many childish post at one time.

ttalks:
Please sir, can you tell us the reason that Paul was Full and no longer with need or necessity?

I have answered this before.The reason Paul was full was not becaused he was working with his hands here as  he did in Corinth but he was full because of things he had recieved through Epaphrotitus and others.

Philip. 4:17-18
   Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. [18] But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
He still went ahead and collected them because of the spiritual principles they were operating.

, "Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account[", /b]
And he went ahead to bless them.

[b]Philip. 4:19
   But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

KunleOshob:
Kindly quote one single scripture were it is recored that local churches collected tithes. h.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

What was Paul refering to here using the priest as exaple ?

Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

KunleOshob:
Tithing was definitely an issue and that is why in the letter to the Hebrews [who must have been practising tithing b4 then] tithing was clearly anulled and described as a weak useless and unprofitable doctrine in chapter 7: 11,12 & 18. However it wasn't an issue to the gentiles who weren't from a Jewish background as there was no need to teach them the obsolete jewish doctrine that was not relevant to christianity.

Even though if the gentile  were never under the law of Moses, Tithing was part of Abrahamic covenant. We are seed of Abraham . Law or no law is insignificant.
Worship of God came before the law , should we stop worship because we are not under law.
why is it the giving part either of offering or tithe that is paining you guys.

KunleOshob:
It is note worthy that Paul who was a pharisee and must have been a tither when he was still living in darkness never for once tuaght tithing to all the chritian converts he preached to. He never for once even included it in any of his letters to even new converts who were just being groomed in the faith and needed to know all christianity was all about. Yes you are write it definitely wasn't an issue in theearly church has is was totally irrelevant to them and the body of christ.

Paul was not a Pastor over a local Church . He would not recieve tithes from them. People give tithes in the local assembly where they recieve the word of God. They had pastors in these local churches that recieves the tithes , The local churches send money and gifts to Paul.

KunleOshob:
Apart from the fact that the laws have been fufilled by christ the laws were directed to the Jews alone. The law was never introduced to christianity by the early church fathers in fact they frowned against it and that was the basis of the first church council as recorded in Acts 15:

Acts 15:7-11:
7 At the meeting, after a long discussion, Peter stood and addressed them as follows: “Brothers, you all know that God chose me from among you some time ago to preach to the Gentiles so that they could hear the Good News and believe. 8 God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. 10 So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear? 11 We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.”

Of course the Law was not given to the Gentiles .We use children language for the purpose of the level of the people we are dealing with here. A born again man is not under the law because the law of God is embeded in his spirit.

KunleOshob:
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Kindly note that we are gentile believers and tithing is one of the yokes under the law Peter was complaining about in that passage.

Tithing was never an issue in early Church. The issues they had was circumcision and salvation by works instead of by faith. Tithing never brought salvation and was never used as and issue  because it was a an acceptable thing and part of life