₦airaland Forum

blackbriar:
TO BE CLEAR YOU ARE SAYING ONCE I ACCEPT JESUS, I AM GOOD TO GO.
I AM BECOME A ROGUE POLITICIAN, A CHEATING HUSBAND, A WICKED BOSS ,A KIDNAPPERS?
COS ALL DIS CASES I MENTIONED WE SEE DAILY AND THEY ALL CLAIM TO BE XTIANS.
SO PLS COME OUT CLEAR...JUST BELIEVE IN JESUS AND FORGET GOOD WORKS?

duh a person with God given faith doesn't do those things,

u don't believe God:
Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

blackbriar:
IF YOU DON'T UPHOLD YOUR END OF THE BARGAIN,DUDE YOU ARE A SINNER.
WHICH IS WHY AT BAPTISM YOU ARE ASKED.......
Renunciation of Sin and Profession of Faith
Do you reject Satan?

Reply: [I do.]

And all his works?

Reply: [I do.]

And all his empty promises?

Reply: [I do.]

Do you believe in the God the Father, almighty, creator of heaven and earth?

Reply: [I do.]

Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

Reply: [I do.]

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

Reply: [I do.]

Is it your will that [Name] be baptized in the faith of the Church, which we have all professed with you?

Reply: [I do.]
The celebrant and the congregation give their assent to this profession of faith:

Celebrant: This is our faith. This is the faith of the Church; we are proud to profess it, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All: Amen.

there is two of your problems, u have faith-belief in the rcc, there is nothing much holy about the rcc,
don't leave out the roman part of your church name,
search for the attrociries of the roman catholic church, or ask me, i will post some for u

blackbriar:
The model of all prayers "PATER NOSTER".
I quoted the apostles creed here...pls check it out again.
Please the church compiled the books of the bible.
I said i pray IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER ,SON AND HOLY SPIRIT,which is the most HOLY trinity, WHO IS GOD.
so basically i have answered all dis questions before and still doing the same now.
HABA.

u also pray to mary and other human beings who have died, and angels, which is unbibical,
u choose rc doctrine over God's word.

kstorm:
. Even though am not a christian, I attended catholic school and I know how good they are in terms of humanity, let's face the fact, catholic are Godly and Caring.

tell that to all the sexually abused children at the hands of rc priests

kstorm:
Ŧђɑ̤̥̈̊п̥̥̲̣̣̣kƨ̣̣̣̇̇̇̇ Fø̲̣̣̥я̲̅ telling him the fact, I mean I like the verse you use to defend rosary.

how do the four living creatures saying holy holy holy day and night to God
support your praying over and over again to mary, a human being-not God, who has died

Rev 4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

u r blinded

Patheos:
obiw24 you are a learner oo why argue with people who have made up their mind that the Catholic Church who has been the only Christian Church on earth for 1500yrs before all these mushrooms churches is evil and they are the one that is right and are the true Christians making themselves infallible even tho they don't admit it .If they are not infallible why should i risk joining them when they might be wrong? Nah those who get una time sha......mtcheeeew

Your pope francis is certinally not infallable:




Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077


God says diffrent:
Joh_14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 
Mat 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


(pope francis did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good.)

However God said:
Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus of course knew that His mother mary held no higher position than any other believer, she was-is no diffrent to any other person of faith:


Jesus' Mother and Brothers
Mat 12:46  While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 
Mat 12:47  Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 
Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

obiw24:
I wonder the God you serve...

u r right in wondering, u rc's don't know Him because u don't know His word-the Bible

Christians serve the God of the Bible, which u certinally don't according to your using church doctrine as proof of your claims,
and by your rejecting the Bible verses posted here which r given as our proofs.

brocab:
And Jesus is our savior-He is also our mediator-which of course the Catholic's has many mediators.
There is no room for other doctrines, where the Catholic's seem to rely upon another-our job is to bring the truth to the people-Jesus said: one must be born again, before he can enter into the kingdom of God-Baptising them in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Next question-are you willing to know the bible-second question are you willing to be saved?
Pushing it down your throat as you call it-doesn't cover it, witnessing the truth does.
The truth is the Catholic's have there own doctrine, which of course it doesn't line up with the Word of God-we are here to show you-there is only One doctrine, the bible-and if it isn't written-it isn't the truth.
In love-we are challenging you, to become a lover of God-as we are.

Yes bro rc's hate God, and of course they don't believe God who said so:
(Exo 20:4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(Exo 20:5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

obiw24:
Everyone should learn how to focus on what's important...their personal relationship with God.

Stop trying to force your beliefs down anyone's throat. You don't see Catholics going trying to force you to worship as we do.
Ask yourself what the real source of your vex with the Catholic Church is...maybe even speak to God about it.

my vex with rc is that u use church doctrine to try and prove your beliefs,
and u reject all of God's word that has been posted here, go back and read oh blind one.

Does God's word-the Bible show that mary is to be prayed to?
does God's word-the Bible show that mary is divinity?
does God's word-the Bible show that mary is without inherited sin nature, etc. etc. etc.?

obiw24:
The God I serve is a God of love and peace not one of bitterness and name calling.
I wonder the God you serve...

Christians serve the God of the Bible, and as u rc's don't, then your above statment is a lie:

The God I serve is a God of love and peace not one of bitterness and name calling.

^^^ @bold, satan is nothing like that, he even has u praying not only to people who have died, but before paintings and statues etc.

@underline, truth isn't bitterness and name calling, but to u who reject God's word for your false doctrines would say it is

obiw24:
I'm not entirely sure this Vatican extract proves your point because it clearly states that Jesus is the savior.
No Catholic has ever said that Mary was there in the beginning and she gave birth to God so I'm not sure the "God has a mom" arguement has a place here. Same as her being placed above all including Jesus.

u r blinded,read it again
Christians raise up no one but God

rc's have raised up mary on a pedestal, even her statues,

obiw24:
Did you know the rosary represents less than 5% of the prayers we say everyday? Look up the rosary of liberation, the divine mercy chaplet and the thank you Jesus chaplet.

Christians would not pray around 5% of their prayer time to any one but God
nor would we pray in front of statues either
nor would we say the same prayer over and over again

obiw24:
The image part has been dealt with previously. God knows exactly where my heart is when I pray so I don't need to defend it to humans who only see what's on the outside and draw the conclusions they desire.

yes God knows that your heart is with mary when u pray to mary:

quote:
hail mary full of grace
blessed art thou among women
holy mary

with rc's worshipping and praying to people who have died, and say 10 hail mary's to one our Father etc.
it's obvious that they take after their father-god satan, and they hate the true God,
and the true God long ago confirmed it:

rc's hate God:
(Exo 20:4)  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(Exo 20:5)  Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

more lies of rcc

mary the subject of preaching and worship


From Vatican Collection Volume 1, Vatican Council II, The Conciliar and Post Conciliar documents. General Editor Austin Flannery, O.P. New revised edition 1992; Costello publishing company, Northport, New York. 1992 pages 420-421 (par. 65)

(To see the scanned documents showing the book and quote, go to
Mary the subject of preaching and worship: documents)

65. But while in the most Blessed Virgin the church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf. Eph. 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse. Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the Faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ, who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that through the church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who joined in the church's apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated.

IV. THE CULT OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN IN THE CHURCH1

66. Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son, as the most holy Mother of God who was involved in the mysteries of Christ: she is rightly honored by a special cult in the Church. From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs. Accordingly, following the Council of Ephesus, there was a remarkable growth in the cult of the people of God towards Mary, in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "all generations shall call me Blessed, because he that is mighty hath done great things to me," (Luke 1:48).
Comments on this passage

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to put our eyes upon anyone other than the Lord himself. We are told to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). In addition, it is Jesus who is the model of virtue--not Mary. Though she was greatly blessed and undoubtedly a godly woman, she still needed a savior. Mary said, "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." (Luke 1:47). Contrary to the Roman Catholic teaching that Mary was sinless, Mary herself admitted that God was her savior. A sinless person does not need a savior. It is in the person of Jesus that grace and truth (and virtue) are best exemplified. Our eyes should be kept on him.
"Spouse"? Still researching to discover what is meant. The Catholic church doesn't seem to be too clear on this.
The only proper object of preaching and worship is God. Jesus said, " . . . You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only." (Matt. 4:10). The incredible danger of making a person other than God, such as Mary, the subject of both preaching and worship is warned about in Exodus 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me." God clearly warns against creating any idol before which anyone should bow. It goes without saying that the countless images of Mary strewn throughout Catholic churches all over the world are most assuredly shrines of idolatry since thousands of times a day Catholics over the world break the commandment of God by bowing before these images in worship.
We should look to Christ alone. When you take your eyes off of Jesus and put them on anything else, or anyone else, you will be led astray.
Where is this taught in Scripture? Where does it say that Mary was exalted above angels and men second only to her son? This would mean that Mary is just under Jesus, the creator of the universe, in position. Vatican II's comments are not biblical. This teaching cannot be found in Scripture and should be abandoned.
This is a misleading term. Mary is not the Mother of God in the sense that God, the creator of the universe, had a mom. The divine nature has no mother since God is eternal and self-sufficient. Rather, Mary is the mother of the human nature of Jesus--not the mother of the divine nature. The human nature took its biological essence from Mary. The divine nature is from God. But we have to be careful here. Mary is, however, the mother of the person of Christ who has two natures: divine and human. Roman Catholics use the ambiguity of the term to elevate Mary to a place she should not be and in so doing--promote their idolatry.

obiw24:
Dear Catholics, please stop responding to these threads that have been started by people with no understanding of the Catholic faith.
Why do you feel the need to prove them wrong? As long as you know you serve the one and only true God and none other, why bother with what the nay Sayers have to say?

This is something I do whenever people confront my faith like that and it may help you. I point them to the Catholic beliefs vua the following link http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM , and advice then to attend one or two Spirit filled masses.
So far none of them have done these things. But if they ever do, and have any Valid questions, I'm more than happy to assist them with it.
Till then I don't bother engaging in the conversation. I let my life speak for me. If you can't deduce that I serve a living God by my life, then I don't know what will convince you.
My people, Biko desist from arguments that lead nowhere. Read Romans 14.

duh, really, those who know rcc doctrine to be un Bibical, have not taken up your challenge to read a years worth of reading of rcc false doctrines from that site
gee i wonder why?

and then go and attend two satan spirit filled masses, why would they?

So far none of them have done these things.

obiw24:
Sir, you seem to be the only one bringing up valid points.
I too have struggled with the sinless theology.
Based on my reflections, I think this theology is as a result of the idea that anyone that was a vessel for our beloved savior Jesus had to be sinless.
We really don't want to believe that she was. Just as sinful as the rest of us.
That being said, it is my understanding that we honour Mary for the role she played in our salvation. What she did was no easy feat.

Our Salvation is due to Jesus Christ alone:
Act_4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

obiw24:
The same way we eulogize mothers of great people in Africa.
We also ask her to pray for us as you would ask your brother or sister when in a fix. Asking her to pray does not in anyway take away our obligation to pray for ourselves.
The Catholic Church believes that there is a body of believers in heaven which comprises of Mary and all the dearly departed that have made it there. Hence, we freely ask them to pray for us whenever we feel the need for intercessory prayers.
Again, our requests for intercession never replace our obligations to pray for ourselves.

asking your brothers and sisters to pray for u is Bibical,
asking people who have died to pray for u is not


praying to mary is unbibical and therefor not from God,
if it's not from God then it is surely from His arch rival satan,

the devil hates Christians communing with God, like God's children should

and i'm sure the devil laughs when he sees u doing his will,
and praying to angels, and to humans who have died
there is only one intercessor-mediator between God and man:
1Ti_2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

blackbriar:
CHAI..........NA WA, I dont even know how to respond to you.
Isn't the most holy blessed trinity,GOD?
What is the "Pater Noster"?

duh, Jesus didn't pray to Himself, He prayed to Father
u need everything explained to u, and then u still don't believe God(as in below verses),
but believe what your anti Bibical church tells u,
Christians pray to God, not to mary and others

Jesus said when you pray, pray to thy Father:
Mat_6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Jesus said this is how you pray:
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus prays to Father:
Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

another rc priest is to face the court over sexual assault of minors,
this time a cardinal, cardinal pell, personal adviser to the pope

with the rcc being rife with priests comitting sexual assault on children
it's clear that their god-their originator of church doctrine which goes against God's word, is satan.

satan loves to put God last, and he has rc's praying to mary more than to God
10 hail marys to 1 our Father

satan has rcc honouring mary a creation, more than God the creator etc. etc.

one only has to search online to learn all the evil of rcc,
clearly anyone who belongs to satans church, it is because he-she want's to

more on mary, full of grace, and luke 1:28

According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women" embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are . . .

She was conceived without sin.
" . . . It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin . . . " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).
That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin, (CCC, 491)

^^^ @bold, theres that pius 1X again, his name comes up a lot concerning apostasy

"From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC, 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC, 508).

Catholic.com says under "Full of Grace" that "These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ's role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven." As you can see, Mary is greatly exalted even to the point of having "spiritual motherhood of all Christians"--whatever that means.

Also, since she has been so highly exalted, prayer is also offered to Mary. Catholics recite "The Hail Mary" which says, "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen." Prayer should be offered to God alone--not to any creature no matter how blessed, including Mary.

As you can see, a great deal is derived from the phrase "full of grace." But, does the phrase justify such adoration and doctrinal proclamation? Can the Roman Catholic church rightfully derive so much from so little? In fact, is the phrase "full of grace" used of Mary in the Bible at all? The answers to these questions is "No."
The Bible and "full of grace"

The phrase "full of grace" in Greek is "plaras karitos," and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people." (Acts 6:8].

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase "full of grace" does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen's case it signifies that he was "full of the Spirit and of wisdom," along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase "full of grace" come from regarding Mary?
The Latin Vulgate and other translations

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena "Hail full of grace.'" Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek--not Latin--but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation--not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church; and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility. Unfortunately, this means that millions of Catholics will continue to look to Mary for help--not Christ who is truly full of grace.

So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let's find out.

The Nestle-Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear--"having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."
The NRSV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament--And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
American Standard Version--"And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."
English Standard Version--"And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
Today's English Version--'"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
King James Version--"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
New American Standard Bible--"And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
New International Version--"The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
New King James Version--"And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"
Revised Standard Version--"And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'
New Revised Standard Version--And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
The New Century Version--The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
New Living Translation--Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”
The Cambridge Paragraph Bible--And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.'
The Holman Christian Standard Bible--"And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."
International Standard Version--'"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

What does the Greek say here for "highly favored one? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean "full of grace" which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”1
5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.2

Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible, and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.
Conclusion

Mary was a very blessed woman. She was graced with the privilege of being able to bear the Son of God. We should never forget her high privilege in this respect. However, we must not elevate her to a level beyond that which is prescribed in Scripture. To do so is to be in error--the very error that is taught in the Roman Catholic Church.

We urge Roman Catholics not look to Mary. Instead, they should look to Jesus alone. He alone is the sinless one, the perfect one, the Lord, the mediator, the forgiver of our sins. It is he alone to whom we should appeal and trust for the forgiveness of our sins. We should not look to any creature no matter how blessed that creature may be.

Ubenedictus:
You see him you have contradicted yourself?

1. First you claim the Church kept the bible in Latin to prevent the people from reading it.
Now you admit that anybody who could read at that time, any literate person could read Latin too.

That means anyone who was literate i. E could read was able to read the bible as Latin was the international language of education all over Europe.


2. You also admit the Jews kept their bible in Hebrew, does that mean they were also hiding the bible or are you only biased against the catholic Church who actually made sure the bible was available in the language every educated person knew and read.

you dictus keep saying the good things rcc has done for the Bible,
yet you cannot post Bible verses asked for,
you believe rcc doctrines over God's word which is calling God a liar,
u love rcc doctrine and u hate God, that is a fact by your own actions

blackbriar:
I pray "IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER,SON AND HOLY SPIRIT"...which is the most blessed trinity.
and i also acknowledge the model of all prayers "Pater noster, que es in caelis"

your beliefs are anti Bibical
Jesus only acknowledges one model of prayer, and that is prayer to only God Himself

Jesus said when you pray, pray to thy Father:
Mat_6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Jesus said this is how you pray:
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus prays to Father:
Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Ubenedictus:
Jesus 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye
believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you
of heavenly things?

^^^ that from a Bible hater, a verse which is speaking of himself
and u rc ditus avoid posting the Bible verses asked of u, such is a rc phony

johnw74:
....

fact is u haven't posted a single Bible verse that supports your satanic doctrines
of mary being prayed to
of mary being divinity
of mary being free from sin nature etc. etc. etc.

Ubenedictus:
You seem largely misguided,

1. I never said the words in bold actually, it is the of position johnw74 lied that the pope said those words.


2. I won't be debating bible passages with you Since i am convinced they won't help your deluded dislike of the catholic Church.

3. The catholic Church didn't insert the duetero-canonical books they have been part of the bible since the bible was compiled in the 4th century, it was luther and Co who removed them because it didn't fit their Protestant theories, doctrines and heresy.

@bold, I have been very clear, but it's just as clear that rc cannot do anything other than lie and false accuse

@underline, u won't be debating Bible passages with bro, because there are none supporting your satanic doctrines
u haven't been able to post even one, asked of u, and u won't ask us for one Bible verse to support our positions
say's a lot doesn't it

Ubenedictus:
Pope
Jesus "sitteth on the right hand of the majesty
on high" (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the
right hand of her Son -
Carm
According to Roman Catholicism: "Mary sits on
the right hand of the majesty on high" (Pope
Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14).
Johnw74


They said the same thing.



Oya continue lying.

according to rcc:
Jesus sits on the right of the majesty on high,
mary sits on the right of Jesus,

do Jesus and mary both sit on the right of the majesty on high?


u dictus cannot accept the plain truth but have to twist-lie because that is your nature

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


your pope said mary sits on the right hand of Jesus,
his only reference was Hebrews, which reference doesn't exist,
when r u going to give any Bible reference, oh rc false accuser


Jesus said when you pray, pray to thy Father:
Mat_6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Jesus said this is how you pray:
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus prays to Father:
Mat_26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Joh_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Christians go into their closet and pray to God inside them,
rc's don't have God inside them, and so pray to angels and people who have died
thinking that they hear them

rc's say mary is without sin
if Mary was sinless, why was she unclean and had to offer a sacrifice for sin?

rc's teach that Mary never sinned. But, if that is the case, why did she need to offer an atonement according to Old Testament Law (Lev. 12:1-8] after giving birth to Jesus? According to the Old Testament, it was only the mother who needed purifying after a birth because of the issue of blood. She was ritually unclean. If she had a male child, the days of her period of uncleanness was seven days, then the child was circumcised, then she remained unclean for 33 days (v. 4)--for a total of 40 days. If she bore a female child, her period of uncleanness would be 14 days plus 66 days for a total of 80 days. Notice in Leviticus 12:2 it says if she bears a male child, she shall be unclean for seven days. If Mary was sinless, how could she also be unclean?

Below is a chart that has Leviticus 12 and Luke 2 side by side. You can see from the text that Mary had to offer a sacrifice for uncleanness and as it says in Leviticus 12:8, a sacrifice for sin offering that is an atonement. Why would Mary, if she is sinless as the Roman Catholics assert, be unclean and also need a sacrifice?

Ubenedictus:
You won't agree your sources lied abi? Are these same.


Pope

Jesus "sitteth on the right hand of the majesty
on high" (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the
right hand of her Son -




Carm



According to Roman Catholicism: "Mary sits on
the right hand of the majesty on high" (Pope
Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14).

carm did not lie, u r just a false accuser, of course

with Jesus sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high,
and with mary sitting on the right hand of Jesus,
they are both sitting on the right hand of the majesty on high

pope gave hebrews as reference, but hebrews doesn't mention mary of the right hand of the majesty on high
or mary on the right hand of Jesus

but post Bible verses to prove carm wrong oh accuser,
post bible verses to prove rcc right

Ubenedictus:
And i repeat, you must have the misguided notion that Christianity began with the iconoclasic Protestants of the 16 century.

truly those who pray before statues and paintings etc. etc. etc. are not part of the body of Christ,

and no, i have never had the notion that Christianity began with the iconoclasic Protestants of the 16 century

but of course taking after your father the devil u cannot help but lie all over the place

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ubenedictus:
There are people who bible verses don't help.


2pt 3:13



speaking of these things in all of his letters.
Some of his comments are hard to
understand, and those who are ignorant and
unstable have twisted his letters to mean
something quite different, just as they do
with other parts of Scripture. And this will
result in their destruction.





Jesus 3:12



If I have told you earthly things, and ye
believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you
of heavenly things?

ha ha, yes, Jesus and Peter were talking about Bible haters like u
that is what u do, when u do use Bible scriptures u twist them to say something else

fact is u haven't posted a single Bible verse that supports your satanic doctrines
of mary being prayed to
of mary being divinity
of mary being free from sin nature etc. etc. etc.

Ubenedictus:
he is trying to lie, he doesn't wish to learn so he resort to lying.

^^^ say's one son of the devil;

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

blackbriar:
for goodness sake read and understand, mary was without original sin cos CHRIST had to be free from sin from birth.
you jump into our discussion half way without knowing how we got there.

blackbriar:
Like i said mary was without Original sin and not Actual sin, for if mary had had original sin, what were the consequences for the messiah?

blackbriar:
I repeat , Mary was without original sin and not actual sin.

u keep repeating what u have been taught to believe
but u cannot support your false doctrines from the Bible

evil men have told u to pray to mary angels and other people, and u r quick to follow them


Jesus said when you pray, pray to thy Father:
Mat_6:6  But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Jesus said this is how you pray:
Mat_6:9  After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Jesus prays to Father:
Mat_26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Joh_14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;




u now have the Bible to see if whatever they have told u is true,
but u would still rather believe evil men who have taught u satans lies,
than believe God.

in so doing u call God a liar.

blackbriar:
Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN not ACTUAL SIN.
ORIGINAL SIN is what makes all men borne of a woman,Sinners.
And the good lord Christ was borne of a woman, for our sake he became flesh.

when u briar say Jesus was a sinner
u r also calling God a liar:

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;




at the same time briar that u say Christ-God was a sinner, u say mary was without inherited sin


u put Christ-God down saying He was a sinner, and raise mary-human up,
like your father the devil has taught u through the rcc

blackbriar:
All you have raised are good questions.

and remember two posts back i infer luke 1:28 "HAIL THOU HIGHLY FAVOURED ONE".

if mary had original sin ,christ had to had had original sin.

duh, favoured one doesn't mean without sin nature,
rc's beliefs r just out of their own heads, passed down like their sin nature is

whenever u briar quote Bible verses u quote Bible verses that don't support your satanic doctrines
and the reason that u briar quote Bible verses that don't support your satanic doctrines,
is because their are no Bible verses that support your satanic doctrines

blackbriar:
Mary was without ORIGINAL SIN not ACTUAL SIN.
ORIGINAL SIN is what makes all men borne of a woman,Sinners.
And the good lord Christ was borne of a woman, for our sake he became flesh.

@bold, the same repeated lie, which of course u cannot post Bible scripture for

@blue, u have straight out said that Jesus was a sinner.
that mary was free from original sin but Jesus had original sin

u r so evil putting mary above Christ-God, just as your father the devil does,

u briar don't believe God:
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

u don't believe God = u hate God.

satan sucesfully convinced eve that she could be like God, just as he tried to be(above God)
satan sucesfully convinced rcc to honour Mary more than Christ-God

Mat_10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.