₦airaland Forum

Wilgrea7:
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The Kalam cosmological argument.. wonderful. I agree that the universe had a cause. What the cause is, is what I'm trying to find out. The agent behind the cause.. is what you refer to as God. The reason I'm still skeptical.. or a bit slow to accept that conclusion...is because a lot about the nature of the cause of the universe... or rather.. the nature of the agent/agents behind the first cause is still widely unknown to us.

To me, the assumption that the first cause, or rather the reason for it, is a singular being, who by itself created all things, seem like a bit of a reach to me.. simply because I haven't found evidence for the claim.

Don't get me wrong. The universe DID have a cause. The nature of the cause.. is where theists and I often disagree. Because they claim it is a God, with certain specific characteristics.. and i often ask for the proof behind these claims and get none in return.. or get a generic “because that's just the way it is" answer.

I made a thread a while back.. where I tried to argue for alternative concepts of what the first cause could be.. and why the default approach of the theist isn't the only possible way things could exist.

https://www.nairaland.com/7220447/questions-existence-creator-god

Here it is if you want to check it out.

As you have agreed the universe did have a cause then you are not even agnostic anymore. At least you're a deist. The nature of God is another matter that we can argue about. Don't get ahead of yourself.

Wilgrea7: Why there is something rather than nothing is a question I've been asking for a long time. Why is there matter.. why are there laws of physics.. why is there anything.. even a thought or a concept is thing.. why is a thing a thing..

People often answer by plugging God into the equation. But that doesn't answer the question. Because God is still a thing. A supposed complex supreme being is still a thing. Why would such a being exist in the first place? Why would it exist in the way it exists.. why would it have a nature?

The question of why there is something doesn't end when you plug God in.. it just extends the question.

You aren't thinking about it properly. God is the end of the question, because Him being the cause of everything and the creator déclassifiés Him from being a "thing". It means He is the origin of everything, giving Him necessary attributes like being "eternal" and uncreated. And also making him "infinitely powerful and knowledgeable" with respect to the created order

The fact that you didn't arrive at this conclusion now tempts me to think you aren't actually being honest in your quest for truth. Because it is quite obvious. That there is something rather than nothing means that there is "something" that is eternal and complete giving rise to our own "somethings" that had a beginning in time and have laws and gravity governing us and the created universe.

This someone is beyond time, because time itself had a distinct origin from infinity. This is definity a someone, because He gave rise to laws and a fine tuned universe and our consciousness that grasps for His existence. The very fact of your mind is proof of God's overmind.

You cannot apply to God what you apply to yourself if He is indeed the cause of the universe(and we both obviously agree that there must be a cause). God by nature must be uncreated and eternal. He is not simply another "thing" that is part of the created order that you can apply your question to, because He gives rise to the created order. He gives rise to the question itself. He is the answer to the question.

That this very simple and intuitive reasoning was lost on you makes me suspicious.

Wilgrea7:
That's what I'm trying to find.



Throughout this platform... I've been called an atheist countless times.. I've never bothered to call myself one.. because when it comes to the existence of a god.. i really sincerely don't know.

I never said that a god DOES NOT or CANNOT exist. Even the word “God" is something i often tell theists to define before we start discussing about it's existence.

I don't know.. and i don't claim to know. The theist is the one that claims to know what a god is, and claims to know that it exists. That's why the burden of proof lies on them.

I cannot prove a negative.. especially when I don't even know what i am supposed to be disproving.

I will do my best not to judge you by the statements of your past then.

It is true that atheists deny the existence of God, and if one claims to be an atheist then the person makes the assertion that God does not exist, meaning the person must know what He is denying.

You sound agnostic.

This is the summary:
God is the highest and most perfect conceivable being. God is the embodiment of truth and reality. I will go as far as the end in saying that God is Jesus Christ

God is a necessary existence, not one you can comfortably claim to not know about His existence.

Take this very simple argument if you are truly looking for truth:

Everything that began to exist has a cause, the universe began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause. This cause is God. God is the root cause of reality and the creator of all things


The fact that there is something instead of nothing is sufficient proof of God. This should convert you from an agnostic to a theist, or a deist at least. God is so obvious, as the very nature of logic and reality and truth are rooted in His existence. I want to logically punish you for claiming not to know, but I choose to accept your claim of sincerity for now.

Wilgrea7:
Ok... This should be good... Yes.. truth exists.. what's your follow up question?

I have to admit I'm shocked at a Skeptic actually acknowledging truth exists. Truth is reality. And truth by nature is objective.

I have no follow up question. Be a healthy Skeptic and let your skepticism lead you to the truth.

I'm not denying anything.. I'm just looking for the evidence for the claims you made.. and I've found none.

Oya go your way.

Thanks?

You're welcome.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim... You're the one making the claim that a god exists. Not just that, but that said god has certain attributes.. and chooses to act a certain way.. the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.. which in this case... Is you

No actually. You deny the existence of God(don't you?). This is a claim as well. An atheist makes a claim that God does not exist. He has to defend it, not me.

Wilgrea7:
What?? What are you even talking about?? I'm legit confused.

You can't criticize dogma from a place of dogma.

Wilgrea7: I literally told you to be careful quoting me from 6 years ago.. since my beliefs have changed a lot since then.. but you still went ahead to do so.

You told me to give you examples na.

Wilgrea7:
A LOT of hasty generalizations here.

1. The existence of a god.. I don't think it's something we both generally agree on.. Arguing god from objective morality is a slippery slope. Because objective morality, in the context of one being set by a god, doesn't seem to exist.. or rather.. it doesn't seem to be well defined.

It exists, you simply choose to deny it. Or rather, you do not even deny it, you simply hide behind words like "well defined" etc. Be bold Mr Skeptic.
Let me ask you, does truth exist?

2. It's one thing to say that a god exists. But why one? Why not many?

3. There's also a difference between saying a god exists, and saying a specific type of god exists. Your logic could be used to argue for the islamic, hindu or Sikh god.

4. It's also another logical jump to assume that if a god exists, it would for whatever reason, want to do certain things, like interfere with humans

5. It is also another huge logical jump, to say that if a god exists, and chooses to interfere with humans, it would want to implement justice.. and if it chose to do so, it would want to do so through your concept of a heaven and a hell.

There are lots of other logical jumps you've made.. but these are the few I'll point out for now.

These "logical jumps" are only present for you because in your very stressful journey to deny or question God's existence you have chosen to deny even the definition of God and His attributes

I'm sorry .. but this reasoning is incredibly faulty.

It's your reasoning that is faulty.

Wilgrea7: You've done nothing to prove the existence of heaven, hell, or even your concept of God. All you've done is to make reference to the book you believe in. That's not proof.

Who said I was out to prove anything? I don't owe you any proof Mr Skeptic. The burden of proof is on you.

Wilgrea7:
I'd advise caution when quoting my posts from 6 years ago.. because my beliefs have changed a whole lot since then.

Moving on, do you care to share how I'm guilty of the same dogmatic mindset i pointed out there?... With an example please

The fact that you also believe your critical position is right is dogmatic.

See example below

Wilgrea7:
so all others are false right? because the devil has deceived them but not you.. please give proof of the above assumption.

if you really understand that most of other religions are just trying to worship the supreme creator tho through various means u won't say they're false

What gives you the right to make this conclusion that other religions are not false? Is it not the same presumed right that other people have to say the opposite?

You wallow in dogma and accuse religionists in hypocrisy

Image123:
It's called video editing, stop this dumb talk.

chief, are you supporting Tinubu?

davien:
@profperfect especially you, listen carefully. A woman can never love you the way you want to be loved, they're conditional lovers of things they didn't contribute to, which is why a woman can love children, her work and whatever she has worked for.. The only men women love are those they had a hand in raising up and even then if she finds something else worth chasing she changes lane.

I and several men have witnessed their behaviour. The earlier thread I made of owing money, me that had millions can't pay off till now. No lady even neared me these past few months but came when there was plenty, only my homies came to the rescue.

Here are universal rules for men ;

You never lose women chasing money.

She is but an option, you can do better, hold atleast 4 women around you at all times, even if you aren't sexual with them. Women want men other women want.

Whatever you do, make sure you offend your woman and give no sh$$ts about it. Apologize only once if it's serious and move on.

If she wants to play games, ghost her and entertain the one that isn't.

Lastly, never as a man let a woman dictate the relationship, did your mother dictate terms of hers with your father? No let woman shout on you like pikin.

Bonus one is to build your life, you have only one life. Make it comfortable for yourself, women are meant to spice your life like curry, not like pepper.

You must have gone through a lot to arrive at this extreme pov

^^^

One of my missions on nairaland is also exposing the idiocy and foolishness of skepticism.

It's very easy to shake the faith of a skeptic, who trusts in foolishness, especially those who don't even understand what it truly means to be skeptics.

Wilgrea7:
truth is ... all we have today are religious dogmas. they all believe they are right and the worst part is they never want to hear the other side of the story... below is their mentality

I am right
I am right because i know i am right not because of evidence or proof.. i just know i am right
you are wrong as long as u don't believe in what i believe in
i cannot be wrong
i cannot listen to you because you are wrong but you must listen to me because i am right
no matter the evidence u provide i will always be right and u will always be wrong until u believe what i believe

the above is the life of a dogma

Isn't this your own dogma as well?

It's always shocking and very funny to me how skeptics make conclusions about knowing what is true or the nature of truth and classify other positions as subjective dogma yet isolate their own position of skepticism as somehow something that isn't also subjective as well and something that is miraculously objective and worthy of dignity and anyone's two cents . Very unfortunate and very foolish reasoning.

Some people think they're wise when they deny religion and God etc, but they're actually fools.

Wilgrea7:
I'm more interested in how you arrived at the conclusion that heaven and hell are real places.

The same way you and I know there's a God. Both intuition and logic. We know that God exists because objective morality exists, and if objective morality exists then God is a moral being, and if so, then He will punish evil doers in justice. Hell is where he does that, generally speaking.

If you can't objectively prove that your heaven and hell exists, then on what basis do you expect a skeptic to believe?

I can prove very obviously as I have done above, through very easy and "simple to arrive at" reasoning.

Also... Trying to threaten someone with a place they don't believe in is about as effective as me threatening you with a unicorn.

I'm only warning you for your own good, and for the good of those who will believe, like I said, some people aren't interested in going to heaven, they do their best to deny very very important and obvious things about God and reality and love and life. They go over and beyond to have faith in incredible stupid and unreasonable nonsense instead of having faith in God. They refuse to acknowledge their blindness and hopelessness so that God will save them. They cannot even understand my words.

For those people my words will only serve as a witness on judgement day, God is the one who saves, he likens his period of salvation to "a year of acceptance", but there is a day he judges. And that's the scary fact, He only needs a "day" in eternity to clear the skeptics doubt.

My words are your witness, skeptics who read this; heaven and hell exist, your life carries moral accountability to a God who judges, and the wages of sin is death. Accept Christ who died for sin today. My words are for those who may read this, and become convinced of the truth too, my reply to the skeptic may be the light to salvation for another who reads and believes.

God only saves those who are poor in Spirit, those who realize their need for His salvation.

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn, To console those who mourn in Zion, To give them beauty for ashes, The oil of joy for mourning, The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; That they may be called trees of righteousness, The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”
Isaiah 61:1‭-‬3 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.61.1-3.NKJV

Templee333:
...it means that Jesus was not a christian!

What's your point?

Empiree:
Christians Intolerance and Force In Nigeria

Intolerance and force ke? Are you serious?

caye:
CAPITAL "YES"!

You're wrong.

KnownUnknown:
The only love involved is the love of money stoked by unbounded avarice.

They sold you the asinine concept of original sin, the snake oil called salvation, and their image (the popular image of Jesus) to worship. They shed their “dark ages” and y’all have embraced it. They tell you a foreign ethnocentric god is a universal god and you believe them. The call your theology and metaphysics “juju” (French Jou Jou meaning plaything) while selling you nonsense about some virgin-born jew who came to die for you. Look around you, the proof of their scam and successful heist to build their societies is more than obvious. Meanwhile, you people are waiting for some jew to ride a horse down from space to save you or maybe you’re waiting to die so you can go be a slave to this “lord and master” in heaven.

https://www.ecclesio.com/2015/04/the-roots-of-the-doctrine-of-discovery-aric-clark/
This sustained period of domination and exploitation was hardest on indigenous peoples around the world whose rights to the land they had lived in, in some cases for thousands of years, were not recognized by the colonizers. European Christians claimed the territory and resources of indigenous peoples with extreme violence. Native people were either killed, displaced, or forced to conform to the language and culture of the invaders. The effects of these crimes reverberate through our society. We are only just beginning to deal with the consequences of our colonial history.

Christians have a particular role in grappling with this injustice, because the Europeans who engaged in the colonial project did so with explicit theological justification. They were acting according to something called the Doctrine of Discovery, which essentially says that only Christians are fully human and entitled to own land. “Pagans and infidels” have the right of occupancy until such time as their land is “discovered” by a properly Christian authority, then their rights and their lives are basically forfeit.

meh...
You're mistaken shaa. And your history is mistaken too.

sonmvayina:
Ok..


Are they two or 1 person

3 persons, 1 God

Templee333:
okay-o! Please urself then.

Take it easy oh...

caye:
They came in that order:
1. First , the lone explorer
2. Followed by the missionary and his Bible
3. Then the traders
4. Finally, the soldiers, guns and cannons.

One King in Ethiopia said,' let's move fast to the guns and cannon" , when he noticed the white infiltration.

Do you think they were all tied together as an agenda?

Templee333:
This posts isn't intended 2 provoke an argument for/against the existence of God,rather, i was only trying 2 see how far a christian can go in his/her ability 2 reason realistically.

Lol. We're also seeing the borders of your own unrealistic reasoning please. You think it's only you that can run experiment?

Authority1o1:
It's very sickening to keep on coming across the "White-man-religion" and "Bible-was-written-by-Whites-for-the-purpose-of-mental-subduction-of-their-colonies" mantras.

Sickening indeed, considering Jesus according to the flesh was Jewish, not British or white.

The true story of Christian mission work from Europe to Africa is an incredible story of love and sacrifice.

Lukuluku69:
Let me dust up. I will holler you with my source but it has been a while. If I tell you that the last time I very did any serious reading about stuff generally is more than 39 years ago would you believe me?

I know he owned slaves. In fact in hundreds self.

Some prominent Americans did indeed own slaves. But Lincoln was an abolishionist.

This doesn't exclude the fact that the abolishionist movement born on the wings of Christianity.

Templee333:
Alright sir. But its good to try to love our fellow humans & create a loving atmosphere here on earth b4 we go to face the great Judge. Just in case...or may be...we might realize the shocking reality

Of course, love is good. There is hope for our physical lives on earth according to Christian religion. This hope for physical earthly life is central to the Christian doctrine of resurrection. That Christ rose physically from the dead. So we also can have hope to have immortality.

So creating a loving atmosphere on earth is the climax of Christian hope, seen in the book of revelation. But it is how we get to be actual citizens of this earth and the way to make an actual difference with love that matters.

For a Christian, showing love is most important, especially through charitable activity and justice, but the most important way a Christian can show you love is preaching, because Christians actually believe there is a hell, and we actually believe that if you don't believe in Jesus you're already headed there, because your sins are not forgiven.

What will you do about your unforgiven sins? God punishes sins in hell. Hell exists because of God's justice. Trying to be good won't cover up the sins we've already committed. We need a saviour. And in comes Jesus. This is the Christian gospel. Good news. That Jesus comes around and takes the punishment for humanity's sin and rises again from death, promising justice, redemption, and new life. That's why we can actually have hope and show love, because our love actually counts and makes a difference, in spite of death.

Templee333:
The above isnt mine. Its a poem that i've thought over and over but have 4gotten the poet's name. By the way,fellow christians, how do u see the poet's description of Heaven,God & Hell, is he right?

He's not. God is Judge. Heaven and hell are real places.

God is also not in a hurry to prove this fact to skeptics btw. He has eternity to convince them. But we are in a hurry because the skeptic only has a chance to decide his eternal destination before eternity comes.

I hail you sir for remaining consistent on this platform for like over a decade!

Please show us the way.

@op
Denying the truth about both religions won't lead to better tolerance, but only to lies and confusion and chaos.

Tolerance does not mean denying your position. It only means respecting another person with differing views(tolerating).
It means you can respect and love a Muslim as a Christian and vice versa, even if you believe that person is wrong and going to hell.

So your last paragraph was not sound or wise in any way.

sonmvayina:
So who was jesus praying to at the garden of Gethsemane?

His father in heaven

@ lalasticlala Are you OBIdient?

To make a short case to fill well meaning Nigerians with some hope.

I was present in Osun state for the gubernatorials. It was calm and quiet, the people chose and they got who they chose, they went for the opposition and won!

Let Osun (and even Anambra) give us some hope that there is a reasonable chance that the people, especially the progressive young people, will go for Peter Obi, obviously the best alternative in the current fold of candidates, and actually have whom they go for.

OBIdience was like a fantastical dream before, but he's kicking up a storm. Have some hope. Pray to your God. This is not a candidacy of tribalism or sectarianism, #ObiAhmed presents balanced young and competent leaders and the breath of fresh air we've been waiting for.

Are you still unconvinced? Did you visit the INEC registration centers? Young people everywhere, powered by youthful zeal and OBIdience.

Over 4 million new voters were in the young category, and over 2 million of those youngsters were students. Have some hope. Get OBIdient. Join the train. We hope to see a miracle, a turnaround.

cc: plaetton, Hahn, Seun

Hello guys! I'm back from self imposed exile, primarily to give a religious defense for the Nigerian Christian population to make a deliberate political choice in the upcoming general elections for Peter Obi and His wonderful Vice; Mr Yusuf. And so on.

I believe I've gathered some extra knowledge and maturity and weapons of sound argument. Indulge me.

It feels good to be back.

cc: plaetton, happypagan, jeromeblack, kingebukasblog, firestar.

Evangelynn:
Abortion isn't murder and I cannot see it as such especially when it is legal in those countries it isn't categorised as murder because it just doesn't have the ingredients to be categorised or seen as such.Abortion isn't murder, when a child has been born outside the womb then it can be called murder or infanticide depending on what constitutes it as such,lastly your last statement makes no sense any parent that doesn't want a child doesn't give birth to it where abortion is legal hence why the law is there once the child has been born it has rights and in that case the law of the country is allowed to run its course.

Hmmm. So in your opinion aborting a child is acceptable because it's legal in some countries? What if it also became legal for parents to kill their kids up to 5 hours after birth and the rights of those children withdrawn? Would this still be acceptable to you? Since it would be the law of the country taking its course?

Evangelynn:
I didn't open the link,I have read many for and against arguments on the issue,I can even share another link to disprove otherwise,you claim it starts from conception others can concede it starts at a particular week when it gets to a particular stage.

I don't believe it starts from conception but from a certain stage I am pro-choice and I see abortion as a social and economic issue not a moral/religious one so even if it starts from conception according to you I still support abortions where necessary if the parents don't want it,it doesn't change my view as I don't see it as murder

Hmmm. So you believe even if human life starts at conception parents can still kill their children and it won't be murder. What if the child is outside the womb? Can parents still kill it if they don't want it?