₦airaland Forum

sonmvayina:
Like?

Rape, murder, adultery, lies, greed, blasphemy, idolatry, etc

malvisguy212:
wow, long time bro, really miss you. Joshthefirst bless you bro. welcome.

Hey bro, missed you too, how’ve you been?

budaatum:
You may as well stick a label on your head to tell us you do not have a clue what you talk about!

You definitely would not have said the above if you knew anything more than the names Aristotle, or Julius Caesar!

Lol. This is just an outrage of shock. Let me ask you this question: How do you know Aristotle existed? The historical evidence given for the existence of Aristotle as a historical figure is in written forms. As far as we don’t apply a double standard, the evidence for figures like Aristotle or Plato pale in comparison to the evidence for Jesus.

Being shocked and outraged will not change hard fact.

sonmvayina:
Define evil..

Evil is defined as profoundly immoral and wicked

LordReed:
Oga I didn't give you assignment. You brought yourself to me to answer my questions, why are you now twisting it around? I ask for something specific, you didn't get it so you now want me to answer the question you said you'll answer. Is it too difficult? I thought you said the crucifixion and resurrection was confirmed by secular historians so why is it difficult to name one person and his publication?



Do you understand the question at all? I didn't ask about the historicity of Jesus. Did Bart Erhman say he confirms the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus?

BTW do you know the meanings of fables, legends and myths? I suggest you look them up because it seems you think fables, legends and myths cannot be built around real things and people.

Oga nawa for you oh, Ehrman in the publication I gave, supports the existence, the trial, and the crucifixion of Jesus as King of the Jews. Did you even open the link and read the book? You said I should post publications, I posted and you dismissed it without even reading it. Wow.


And I never said secular historians like Bart Ehrman confirm the resurrection, I said they confirm the crucifixion and the fact that the body was not in the grave. I gave the resurrection as the only viable answer to these historical events. Don’t change mouth.

hahn:
Isaiah 45:7

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Yes. God can bring calamity and evil upon people. He brought a flood that reduced human population to 8 people, as someone pointed out. This doesn’t mean that good is evil and evil is good. That doesn’t make sense. This very verse you posted gives a clear distinction between good and evil, light and darkness.

sonmvayina:
It is you who is making the judgement... Not God.. Who drowned the whole world during the time of Noah?. Who killed the Egyptian first born?.. Or you want to tell me those are good?

You seem to confuse intrinsic evil with justice. Let’s say I sentenced a man to the electric chair for raping and murdering three women, in a sense I’m bring “evil” to that man, but actually, I’m bringing him justice. This is what the Bible means when it says God brings evil and calamity as well as good.

As for the bolded, you also seem to imply I should know by intuition what is good and what is bad. If true, this means that morality is not determined simply by man’s whims, there is an intuition placed in every man by a higher power, a conscience is placed in man to know right from wrong. Morality is not relative in the end.

Ola17:
The Jews somehow believe they are the chosen race and every other race is second class.

You don’t need God to tell you that murder is wrong do you?

Interesting. You seem to imply I should somehow intuitively know murder is wrong. If this is true, you’re appealing to something other than ourselves, you are no longer a moral relativist.

sonmvayina:
You are learning very fast... Singularity rather than duality..

If good is evil and evil is good, then the very concept of good or evil is meaningless. That’s not God, that’s madness.

sonmvayina:
Yes.. He creates, he also destroys.. I will look for the exact quote for you..

He creates and He destroys, I agree, but this doesn’t mean that good and evil mean the same thing to God. Good and evil is the same thing means good is evil and evil is good.

Ola17:
In my opinion, a society that intends to develop shouldn’t base its opinion of what is good or evil on a ‘God’; that has served its purpose.

Slavery was either condoned or highly encouraged in most of the world’s major religions. I doubt if anyone would want to be a slave in this day and age.

What then should a society base its opinion of what is good and evil then?

The Nazi German society determine that their race was the purest on earth, and killing Jews was good, and the rest of us were second class. If they had won world war 2, their morality would be mainstream and enforced. Would this be good?

sonmvayina:
It is only man that judges action as good or evil.. They both mean the same thing to God..

He creates both.. "I form the light and create Darkness, I make peace and evil, I the Lord do all these things" Isaiah 45 :7

"from where does good and evil comes, if not from the mouth of the Lord ".. Lamentations 3 :38

Can you clarify this? Good and evil mean the same thing to God?

LordReed:
I did not give you any homework. You presented yourself as a responder to questions, now you are getting angry, how is it my fault?

Throwing in a history.com article doesn't answer the question I asked which is name the secular historian that confirmed the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Provide the published work. When you want to provide evidence make sure it is compelling and I have given you an idea of what it would take.

I responded to your statement nau, with questions about what I assume you already knew since you claimed to have examined the Bible, but you now went ahead to even give me assignment. I even gave a reliable article thinking you’d at least pursue it from there but you rejected it and told me to redo the assignment. Wow. Do you think this is an academic forum?


But I’ll humor you, because I care about you. These are some popular non-Christian historians who have ratified the historicity of Jesus:

Josephus
Bart Ehrman
Numerous others.

I find it baffling that you claim to have examined the Bible and found it full of fables, but when issues as central as the historical events surrounding Jesus are brought up, you lazily ask for more evidence. Did you really examine the Bible? Or did you dismiss it? Meanwhile, Google is your friend oh.

Bart Ehrman (a secular agnostic) wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees" B. Ehrman, 2011 Forged : writing in the name of God ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. p. 285

sonmvayina:
I see both good and evil as siblings of the same parents.. As they can't exist independent of each other.. What is the purpose of good without evil..?
Who is the judge of what is right or what is wrong?.. They both serve as check and balance to each other..
Well if it will interest you :, God is the creator of both and responsible for both..

hmmm. In your previous post you said good and evil are mans perspective, now you go on to say God is the creator of both. That’s contradictory. Choose one perspective and we can go on from there. Is good and evil solely man’s perspective of events, or is God the transcendent and ultimate moral arbiter?

budaatum:
The definition of good does depend on individuals and society, and you'd know this if you know your history. There was a time when society deemed it ok to burn witches and stone gay people, but some societies have decided against both today, while some societies deem it ok to at least persecute gay people.

If the definition of good and bad does depend on individuals and society, it goes to say that there is no intrinsic good or evil, just individual and societal whims, i.e, nothing is intrinsically good or evil irrespective of anyone’s perspective, everything is relative, abi? This means that what a society may consider good can simply be considered bad by me. Good and bad is relative to us alone. Not any higher power. Why do we then try to question the existence of a higher power based on our relative notions of good and evil? Why do we judge God with our own moral compasses when our morality is relative also? Why do we exclude God from the right to determine His own morality?

budaatum: And I would not like anyone to rape me under any circumstance whatsoever, so it is wrong as far as I am concerned.

Well, I could say i’d like to rape you under all circumstances, I could say raping you is okay to me and is right as far as I’m concerned. What makes your morality better than mine? And what right do you have to tell anyone that what they are doing is wrong if their morality is based on their opinion? Does it depend on who has more power?

See the problem?

budaatum:
First, op, is your false proposition of an "objective God". The fact that all subjects have their own subjective opinion about God and no objective definition of God exists, lays the lie to an "objective God". You say God is loving and a perfect judge while the first responder claims God "Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt", and that's God from the same one book, which should make one wonder what readers of other God books make of God.

Second is the fact that morals are subjective to the moral individual or society. An example is homosexuality. Some nations imprison gays while some nations imprison you for discriminating against gays.

What is good or evil has no more to do with God than being a tool we use to educate humans about good and evil. Its an archaic tool at that and better tools have always existed to teach you the knowledge of good and evil if you would just pluck of the fruit of the tree and eat so your eyes may open.

If the definition of good depends on individual or society then there is no intrinsic good or evil.

First, Do you agree?


Second: Is rape wrong?

LordReed:
Name one secular historian that has historically confirmed the crucifixion of Jesus and the resurrection. Write his/her name and the published work.
I have asked for specific pieces, provide them let's see.

look here.

This is a simple article I found very quickly.

Other than than you cannot be giving me homework when you’re obviously too arrogant to even consider the information or view it with an open mind. I wish you well.

LordReed:
Verified by whom and how.



Historically verified by whom and how.

Secular historians, I can’t start explaining how historical events are verified. Look into it yourself. There is more historical evidence for Jesus than for Aristotle, or Julius Caesar.

LordReed: So? People die for all sorts of causes. Is it beans to wear suicide vest?

This is a different mind blowing cause, and it’s disheartening to see you compare it with suicide bombing. This is for sticking to a claim that Jesus resurrected. They are killed by others. They don’t take up explosive vests or arms to murder others along with themselves. The two are radically different.

LordReed: Who were the historically verified siblings of Jesus?

James, and Jude.

LordReed: Has nothing to do with historically verifying anything other than Paul lived. Paul never saw Jesus in the flesh so he could have been talking all of it from his own head. Besides people switch sides all the time, how is that a compelling argument? I became an atheist after being a Christian for 28+years, does my case compel you to become an atheist?

You don’t seem to be thinking about this clearly. Paul was a murdering people on account of his convictions. He was murdering people who claimed Jesus rose from the dead. And he went on to become a martyr and a propeller of the same gospel. It is certainly not the same as an ordinary switching of sides. This involves life and death. You’re dismissing these issues without even giving them any thought. I find that most people who claim to have examined Christianity and religion and abandoned it did an extremely poor and dismissive work.

LordReed: Suitable may be comforting to your beliefs but I would rather have facts and I have not seen any facts that make any of this compelling.

You’ve done a good job throwing the facts I gave you away. These facts are confirmed by secular historians, many of them atheists like yourself.

LordReed: You seem to have little appreciation for how folklore grows and assumes a life of it's own. When Bram Stoker first wrote his novel Dracula, little did he know that it would form the basis for most of the modern world's idea of what a vampire is. Yet it is a true born fable.

So what if people die for fables? Does the suicide bomber's fable compel you?

I feel incredibly insulted that you’d compare someone sticking to a fact and being murdered for it to someone killing others to stand up for his own agenda. You’re comparing fables to historical fact, and I don’t mean to be condescending, but this just shows ignorance on your part. Even Dracula was a historical figure, but it’s easier to see the difference between the historical figure Dracula, and what his story is now, and that of Christ, and the way his Story has changed the world completely.

LordReed: I don't have to disprove anything, you who believe are the one to bring the proofs.

I see my dear budaatum moved by the words of Jesus and I sort of envy him that he can find inspiration in them. Me, they feel like insipid platitudes for the forlorn, no offense meant but that's just the way I feel now.

Toh. You don’t seem to be interested in any proof I may bring.

I recently explained to someone(Hahn, here ) that the problem with humanity is a problem of the heart, a problem of our very nature. We are sinful.

This is one of the most fought against ideas in modern antics, that the human heart is evil. According to the Bible, the heart of man is deceitful, and desperately wicked.
Do you think you’re evil? Are you wicked enough to be cast into eternal damnation and hell? According to Jesus, no one is good except God. Let’s take the good test then:

Have you ever lied? Then you’re a liar. It takes one lie to be a liar
Have you ever taken what doesn’t belong to you? Then you’re a thief, a lying thief, since we’re being progressive.
Have you ever committed adultery? Jesus defines adultery as looking at someone with lust in your heart, that’s how high God’s standards are. If you’re guilty of this, then you’re an adulterer.
This is just three of the Ten Commandments.

We can safely assume we’re guilty of at least one of the above.
Now imagine if you died today and stand before Gods judgement as a liar, thief and adulterer, would you go to heaven or hell?

Some at this point say God would forgive them of their sins and send them to heaven, but that’s not how Justice works. If you stand convicted of murder or rape in a courtroom, the judge wouldn’t forgive you, he would sentence you to punishment for wrong. If we as humans understand some justice, imagine how much more God the perfect judge would.

Some say the good they’ve done would outweigh the bad (e.g Muslims), but think about that too. If you were a convicted rapist and murderer, you wouldn’t tell the judge that you’ve done community service and built schools and given scholarships to orphans in your community in hopes of him setting you free, that is equivalent to a bribe. The judge will sentence you based on the evil you’ve done, not the good. God will not be bribed by good works. He has promised that the payment for sin is death, the soul that sins shall die. The divine deity will cast the guilty soul into hell. Without parole. This should concern us all. This should make you afraid. As a sinner, God the Judge is your enemy, not your friend.

But there is good news. God is rich in mercy, and because of his love, he poured out his Justice on Jesus Christ, whom he sent to die for our sins. When we repent and trust in Jesus’ sacrifice, God commutes our death sentence and gives us eternal life. This is the gospel.

The gospel is not that Jesus came to give us success, or wealth, or to make us blow, or to bless our hustle, like is being touted by our prosperity preachers. The gospel is that Jesus came to give us LIFE. We broke God’s law and are deserving of His Justice, awaiting fearful judgement, but God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not die, but have eternal life.

Trusting in God and repenting means abandoning our lifestyles of rebellion and sin and trusting Jesus. He gives us new hearts of love for God and grace to walk in goodness and truth.

Fear is a legitimate reason to trust in this gospel, we know the terror of God’s judgement, so we plead with all men to be reconciled to Him. But as you get to know Him, you realize that It is the great Love of God that has made the gospel available to us.

What shall it profit a man to gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
What shall a man give in exchange for his soul? There is an unfathomable Being who has our souls in His hands, death does not negotiate with anyone. Death is God’s arresting officer to drag you to judgement. The Gospel offers us life through God’s mercy.

hahn:
What has God done to help Nigeria since independence?

So far things have only been getting worse?

How can you rely on what is obviously a collosal failure?

Nigeria is in a terrible state, and there are many factors involved, but God doesn’t promise anything special or specific about Nigeria, what he definitely promises is a new heavenly nation where there’s no corruption or injustice, and I’m happy to be a citizen of that country through faith in Christ. Nigeria may get better, Nigeria may get worse, I continue to trust God and look for a new heaven and a new earth filled with righteousness and justice.

The problem with Nigeria and the world at large is the heart of men. Corruption and wickedness stem from the heart, and the only true and permanent fix is a change in man’s very nature.

LordReed:
I have looked and I realize it is not as remarkable once you cannot consider the miraculous since those cannot be historically verified. So what are you left with a man who supposedly taught some "radical" stuff, so what?

Consider what is historically verified first, and you will realize that there is no answer apart from the miraculous. This isn't just radical stuff.

Historically verified facts:
Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate
His body was gone from the tomb after three days.

Disciples claimed to have seen him, at one point over 500 people claimed he appeared to them at once. What are the odds that 500 people would have the same hallucination?

These people who claimed to have seen him were tortured and killed and died proclaiming he was resurrected.

Jesus' own brothers became disciples and said he was risen from death. One, James, became the head of the Jerusalem Church. Do you have a sibling whom you've lived with all your life? Imagine suddenly starting to worship your sibling as God, even under duress. Highly unlikely unless something serious is going on.

Paul, formerly Saul, a Jewish zealot who killed and persecuted those who believed he resurrected, suddenly became a disciple, claimed to have seen Jesus, and went on to write most of the new testament Bible. And was eventually beheaded.


These are facts of history. There is no other suitable answer to these facts apart from the fact that Jesus actually did rise from the dead and was seen by all these people.


Imagine a large conspiracy theory. Imagine a group of us agreed to pretend Hitler was still alive for example, and we started spreading this news and started a cult following. Then imagine the government went after our cult because they deemed it illegal. They got our top chiefs and tortured them. If our cult was founded on lies, then of course the lies will come out. Even if some of us are crazy enough to die for a lie, it certainly wouldn't be all of us. The conspiracy would collapse

But the opposite happened in Christianity. This 'fable and folktale' as you call it, did not collapse under scrutiny and persecution and death. It GREW. It eventually overwhelmed the empire and has now spread all over the world.
Til today, people still die on account of the 'fable' of a resurrected Christ.



Consider this and count your costs. Do honest research. Did Jesus really rise from the dead? Disprove that and you have successfully destroyed the heart and foundation of Christianity. But if he actually became alive again after death, then something serious is going on here, and the words of Jesus must demand your attention. They claim to give humanity a way to escape death and have eternal life.


Cc: JeromeBlack

JeromeBlack:
The bible says nothing about smoking weed. There is no scripture you can use to justify or criminalize it.

This goes to show that morality exists outside God and the bible.

You don't understand my point. What is good and bad outside of the existence of an objective lawgiving God? It is mere pointless opinion. Nature, and evolution, is amoral. So if we stick to the materialistic godless pov, we are also truly amoral. Any sense of right and wrong is subjective social delusion, dependent on anyones whims. Abi?

God does not even make sense morally. God is a superpoweful alien that cannot understand human morality. We are supposedly like ants to God. Now imagine you see an ant in your food, you would kill it without and throw it away without losing any sleep. An ant's life is insignificant compared to yours. It is not as intelligent as a human being. Now imagine God looking at us humans as ants. We are insignificant to hos power and omnipotence. God can wipe us out without even blinking an eye. How can a God of so much power ever truly have empathy for humans? It is of no surprise that God smited humans like ants in the old testament. Drowned millions, bombed cities like Gomorrah and sent plagues to Egypt. An alien cannot have human empathy...human empathy is alien to it.

No. No. That's not who God is. God, is the self existent all powerful, Yes. But he is Love, and forgiving. He made us in His image, and He Loves with an everlasting Love. He is also a perfect Judge, and any evil doer like you and me, who does not trust in His mercy will experience the full brunt of His judgement. He is a consuming fire, and in a sense, He is your greatest and most unfathomable enemy, because of sin. He reduced the world's population to 8 people in a previous judgement. He is to be feared.

But the good news is that His Love has made a way for sinful men like us to escape Judgement through repentance and trusting in Jesus. That is the simple gospel.
No one is good. We all deserve death. But God is rich in mercy because while we were sinners, Christ died for us. A sacrifice for our sins. God is unfathomably greater than us, but His Love is also unfathomably great towards us. This is God.

JeromeBlack:
Lol.....God is very good at failing his people. The bible says that Israelites were in slavery for 400 years.

And were delivered mightily by God from Egypt. How is that failing?

The same Jews suffered a holocaust.

And became a nation after that, fulfilling biblical prophecy. Today they are economically prosperous and have the power to defend themselves. How is that failing?

God is not hope. God will fail you, according to his record. No wonder Nigeria has been failing since the 90s

God is the only hope in our reality. Even if Nigeria slumps into total disaster, I have hope of heaven. What is your hope as an atheist? Who are you to even speak of hope? What is the point of your existence? Where is the purpose and hope for the future and life in atheism?

LordReed:
Hope you are good?

Well, I no longer have any questions I want answered from the bible as I have become convinced it is a compilation of fables, myths and legends. Thanks for offering though.

I'm good thank you.
Leave off the Bible then. Consider the historical personality of Jesus Christ. If you honestly look at the person of Jesus as historical figure, and the early church that came from him, you will most certainly be dumbfounded.

What questions do you have?

halalMACburger:
Great thread. I wonder where Joshthefirst is.

Mars man?

JackBizzle:
1) Religion
As long as black people follow foreign religions that have been used to enslave them in the past, we will always be mental slaves. Like it or not islam ultimately benefits the Arabs and Christianity the whites. GO to Jerusalem and see how black pilgrims are treated. Go to Mecca and see the difference between African pilgrims and Arab ones.

We are one of the most homophobic, sexist and ignorant races as a result of religion.

2) Survivalist mentality.
Just because you are alive doesn't mean that you are living. Poverty makes you focus on surviving and not living. You care about your next food or salary instead of taking time to look At art or do some philosophy on nature. You focus on yourself rather than the bigger picture of the community. You become so materialistic rather than perceptive. When a black man hammers, it is to pop champagne in the club, while the typical white man eats out with family and friends.


3) ignorance of our history (as a result of colonization)
If you knew that most powerful Christian churches and Muslims in the early centuries were supporters of slavery of Africans, would you be a Christian?

If you knew that your prophet regarded blacks as inferior would you follow him?

If you knew that your tribe or culture is older than Jews, Arabs or Judaism, would you claim to be descendants of Jews and Arabs?

If you knew that your tribes had inventions like sculpting techniques with bronze, hunting weapons, pottery etc, would you say that only the white and asian men could invent?


Cc tingtingz, vedaxcool, Hahn, hopefullandlord, jonbellion, deepsight, lepasharon, scepticalpyhrro, decide, tosyne2much, naptu2, joshthefirst, demmzy15, onyenze123, galaman, theeminentlaity

I agree with your three things as topics making Nigeria backward, but disagree with your content. We don't practice good religion, we struggle with fear and survival, and we have the worst modern history as a people on earth. But there is hope. God is currently my only hope.

First, where's everyone from the good old days? Jack Nozzle(LB), amanfrommars, plaetton, deep sight, etc? How're you all doing? It's literally been years.



To the topic then:
One common question from sceptics; if there is a God, why is there so much evil in this world. But what is good? And what is evil? We cannot define these terms without an objective transcendent moral standard. Thus recognition of evil serves to confirm your reasoning of the morality behind the events of the world around us.

Without God, there is no real good and evil, only evolutionary figments of the imagination, and whatever suits anyone. Therefore the question of evil in the world affirms the existence of a creator who has made moral beings.

DeepSight:
Thank you Uyi. Quite a while. How have you been. You must be old now. How are you preparing for your up coming 50th birthday.
I am wondering if for example, the Nazi idea of sterilizing some people to avoid them producing sick children can be justified.

You should be preparing for your 100th

LordReed:
As part of my moving on policy this year, I am no longer going to be asking questions about the bible. The book is a series of fairytales and deserves no serious thought put towards it.

I asked myself if I came across a person who wanted to live according to Harry Potter books how would I treat them? I would laugh at the absurdity and not give it any serious thought. In fact I may cheer them on and tell them "you do you bro", I certainly won't go questioning JK Rowling's depictions. This is the response I think the bible and Christians (and all other religions as well) deserve.

Except of course when they want to force their fairytales on us as rules for living. Then the claws come out. Live your life according to your fairytale but do not presume to force me to live according to it, no thank you with all the vehemence I can muster.

I'm happy to answer any questions about the Bible you may have. Long time btw.

HappyPagan:
Good, man. Good. How does one catch you offline?


Imagine Nairaland without English? Imagine we all spoke our tongues.... would we be able to communicate.
Nigeria is a congregation of many strangers. Until we sort our selves out, our minds, our hearts, our politics will continue to throw up dead contenders, men of old ideas.

It's unfortunate. I fear we are walking into a dark future. Kids born in the last 10 years have grown up on Boko Haram, hatred, envy, lust, and all sorts of vices. Most aren't aware what a sane society feels or looks like. The generators haven't helped matters, neither does the helplessness, and sadness which pervades the land.

But we are good at spraying fragrances on shit - we call it beliefs. We use God as an excuse to not hold our leaders accountable. The 2019 elections isn't about the contenders - it's about the people, and what kind of society they want to live in. 2020 is fast approaching, and we are already living in the post-information age. There are so many retards in our society, and they are in high positions, spreading their ignorant poison on radios, tv, whatsapp.

does the nation have hope? yes, if some disease wipes all Nigerians 5 years and above... lol.. just kidding..


There's hope. I lived in some village in India for about six years. Saw growth despite grave odds, sad poverty - yet huge potential. The key to unlock a great future is proper education - not new schools, shiny buildings with 'ultra-modern' edifices... but proper education... from the family, from our beliefs, that form our values, what we hold to be true, fair and just.

We have no society as a conscience - we have to rebuild one.

I'll message you then contact you my genuine email from there.

I completely agree with the bolded and completely understand it. Let's talk about it more.

HappyPagan:

Lol. Please go and help Frank understand how to maintain his atheist position.

How far nau? Long time oh.

How far with 2019 elections? Who do you support? Do you think this country has hope?