₦airaland Forum

@italo

My point is beliefs are not neceesarily true for being contents of thought simpliciter.

However what makes beliefs true, is how they represent reality.

@uyi iredia

1. In that paragraph you managed to muddle existence as a concept which materialists find difficult to fit into their theory with to materialists accepting consciousness as idealistic

2&3 plato is an example. He believed the gods were illusory.

4. Why do you think consciousness is in the brain?!

5. Light is simply made of particles? What of waves? Are they physical too?

"God" created sin.

Christianity represses one of man's inherent nature and "criminalises" its expression.

CodeHouse: @ifeness I say this with due respect to your parents..I had said this in my previous posts..that most people who call themselves atheists are angry with GOD for some kind of tragedies that theyd experienced..you hit the nail on the head when you asked if GOD could raise your dead parents..guy you gat to move on I had suffered same here but will not blame GOD for that...what If I was the one lying down cold in the grave, will I be able to insult GOD? You and I have grace freely given to us by GOD, dont misuse yours

Why do Christians suffer?

Uyi Iredia: No, space is not tangible, sub-atomic particles are barely tangible. I opine the same of the assumed superstrings. I'll herein distinguish between physical objects and concepts relating to them on a closer or farther level. I'll also distinguish between idealism and materialism. For the most part, atheists are materialists, deists and theists are idealists, there are curious exceptions though. It is true non-physical objects are detected by the mind only. That is the self-defeat of naïve materialism I talked about. |Materialists have noted the confutation in saying only matter exists where existence isn't material but conceptual.

<<< Non sequitur >>>>

So they accept the extancy of consciousness and its attributes|, including the concepts evident to it whilst ignoring the idealist position that the substance of existence is a non-contingent consciousness held to be God. They propose that physical things and laws they work by lead, by themselves, into existence in our universe. This is why I told JeSoul evolution was crucial. Of course, they must ignore the fact that matter has no consciousness whatsoever in any configuration, even in my brain, consciousness is an extra bit that matter CAN NEVER account for, every instance where that is supposed you start with the consciousness begging an explanation. Ergo, the self-defeat of materialism I talked of earlier.

1. The above don't logically connect.

2. It is a bad idea to believe most or all atheists are materialists.

3. Platonists + Plato were atheists, yet believed in a metaphysical ideal which was the actual truth behind all illusions. Note Plato points to perfect/pure Goodness not God as the true existence.

4. Why do you think the additional "idealistic" ingredient is in the brain?!

5. Following the popular Big Bang theory, isn't space rolled out from the singularity and is presently expanding?! What does that say about its physicality?

6. Are we to presume dark matter and light are transcendental or non physical because dark matter isn't detectable and light isn't matter?!

Chrisbenogor: I would believe a simple miracle

Draw a triangle that has angles more than 180 degrees inside.

That would be a fantastic example of a miracle.

Uyi Iredia: By his materialism.

Momentarily forget any position I seem to take, and judge mainly this statement. "Is Kay 17 conscious?"

I think Space is being tangible and detected by human's fragile sense, makes it physical, and it is even the measure of matter. I don't think you would want to define physicality solely on whether or not its matter, because objects such as light, time, lines, colour, wldnt appropriate fit a non physical category.

Non physical suggests mathematics, geometry, "objects" detected by the mind solely.

Uyi Iredia: Matter has no consciousness and consciousness is imnaterial. Hence, materialism which presumes only matter exists, fails.

I told you the first (I'm conscious), by your stance, is false.

If space isn't constituted of matter it is thus not physical. All physical things are defined as being made of matter.

Therefore Kay 17 is not conscious?!!

@italo

To discharge you from the agony of describing and positively define God, I would take the step of explaining what the concept of God really is.

God has no shape or form nor essence, God is a concept within an existential void and irrelevant without a mythological context. God is a creation of the human psyche in need of provision, protection. God is a father figure to tend to our cravings, fill our gaps of understanding and mystify life.

God's main function isn't the creation of the Universe, rather he is a father, whose creation of "all", is merely to buttress his fatherly role. He is the pillar of morality. Daddy makes the rules that protect us etc.

Uyi Iredia: Neo: D'you already know if I'm going to take it?

The Oracle: Wouldn't be much of an Oracle if I didn't.

Neo: But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

The Oracle: Because you didn't come here to make the choice,
you've already made it. You're here to try to understand why you
made it. I thought you'd have figured that out by now.

Dammit omnisciency doesn't contradict free-will

It does! From the above, it is explicit. Neo actually made an illusory choice, more of a mechanical, predetermined step.

What if Neo at the point of making the decision, decided deliberately to act against his destiny, in spite of "understanding" the choice that was predestined for him?!

Uyi Iredia: I don't and you don't have to be for your position to be rebutted.

1. Pls let me know how my "position" is faulted

2. You haven't pointed which is false between "I'm conscious and "I'm matter"

As to space (spacetime), Einstein's theory of relativity suggests the physicality of space, note thayt space isn't constituted of matter itself.

What is a miracle?

A remote odd or a logical impossibility?

Christianity, the religion of lambs. Humans have converted their minds which held great potentials to lamb dolls.

Of what value is there, whether a man wears ear rings or not?! What is the real value behind the action?

Uyi Iredia: As does yours, though you are bound to defend the contradiction in your position



The former is false by your stance. Matter has no consciousness and as such can't solely effect it.



That is not my assumption, it so happens I think God (or Space) is unchanging, bare simplicity.

Oh you think I'm a strict materialist?!

Sw

italo: You have a mother. But you were told at some point in your life and you believed.

Does that mean your mother is a subjective experience to you?

I repeat! Our claim is coherent to us...so to us, your claim lies unproven.

This is overly sentimental. One thing to note, all beliefs are not true by virtue of being mere beliefs.

Uyi Iredia: Let's assume this is true. By this material can't give rise to the immaterial. Matter affects only matter and nothing else and hence consciousness, which is immaterial, shouldn't exist.




It is meaningless and isn't a fact as you mean.



What do you mean by unidimensional.

1. In that case, your argument falls apart.

2. Which is false, whether I'm conscious or whether I'm matter?

3. By unidimensional, I mean matter being dull and still, unchanging, non diversity, bare simplicity.

Uyi Iredia: Culled from this thread

I'll add mine.

6. The argument of consciousness (ex conscientia)

* Matter lacks consciousness
* Certain configurations of matter exhibit consciousness
* The action of matter within such configurations have no
consciousness and beg the question of consciousness.
* We infer a non-contingent, immaterial conscious being called God
from which consciousness comes.

1. I don't believe I live in an absurd world where opposites and antitheses begat one another. The immaterial lacks the substance within, to stir up the material. "You can't give what you don't have!"

2. "I as Kay, am conscious. Also, I'm matter" that stands as a fact. What's also a fact is, most people you presume matter is unidimensional without even a skeleton justification.

italo: Our claim is coherent to us. It was coherent to me when I was told and I believed...along with billions of others.

So, to us, nothing proves your claim.

You are meaning to say, God is a subjective experience to you and the billion theists?!

donroxy: Yeah, I also hold that it is normal for MAN to ask question about our Earth,Galaxy and the entire cosmos !!!


I also believes Science has provided more Pragmatic Answers to Global problems/Mystery than ART !!!


(Un)fortunately, I am a social Scientist ..... Simply cuz I wanna learn about my cosmos too, thats why I had to delve into Science but I am never a pure scientist !!!



With time, I believe if our planet still subsist and not yet extinct,Scientist will, via empirical evidence, confirm,unravel and ascertain the mystery behind any model therein on Earth,Our Galaxy and Cosmos .......though, I estimated Billions-in -Billion of years to ascertain all mystery(Formula) guiding the cosmos !!!


Therefore, Since Science has not yet uncovered all the formula, I think PseudoScience is an Abridged way to Learn Faster!!!


Until Science disprove pseudoScience Conclusion ......... Hmmm...........
Then we shall carry out further analysis on the superior conclusion to ascertain which one to hold onto In the Database of knowledge !!!


PseudoScience rules for now until another million years which shall take Science to come to same/Contrary Conclusion with PseudoScience !!!


Hmmm, Law of thermodynamic, does that disprove my assertions ?

Rubbish post, for its rubbish state, it isn't even consistent! You are the only clown, I knw that is publicly declaring his alliance with ignorance and foolishness.

The case for pseudoscience is impossible, what does pseudoscience aim for?! Progress or ignorance?! It has no value to our knowledge and displays impaired understanding.

donroxy: It is clear and without doubt that the Sun is the absolute force in our galaxy that holds our planet in orbit which thus caused our dear Earth to Rotate and revolved ....


Also, it is clear that any miscalculation from Sun can de-orbit our planet and all of us;Human and other species shall fall into Oblivion .....


These implies the SUN is the most important Star to our susbsistence as it holds the key to our planet !!!


Now, what powers the sun or is it acting unilaterally ?

Scientist are yet to unravel all the features inherent in SUN to even discovered where it got fueled but It must get fueled from another entity .....



Now ,what Entity fuels the entity that fuels sun which thus enable it to hold us together ....


If u continue in that chain, then we may get to Infinity and it shall take we MAN Billion of Years to Unravel this Chains ....



Scripturally, An Entity now tagged itself The absolute Force/Fuel/power in the chain which receives No power/energy/Fuel from any other source ....... But forces beget with it and end with it !!!



Such Entity can be anything but if such entity is the absolute and supreme and That is what I worship !!!


I don't care what it is tagged, Jehovah,Allah,Eli ,Rabbi ......

I called it Supreme Force/Power

If Allah Fulfils the requirement in definition of what Such Absolute power implies then so be it likewise any other name attached to it !!!



LogicBoy, Lets go science,geography and dump religion in proofing or disproving the absolute force !!!


Science will teach the proving, Religion teaches what it wants !!!


Infact, I already posited earlier in this thread that God could be anything but beyond the comprehension of we man and such is our problem !!!



LogicDude, Am not here to convince you to believe, but aam interested to let you know, I really understand what I am doing !!!


I will appreciate if u rebutt me point by point as raised by me while providing superior arguement to mine !!!

Point to me where I am Scientifically and logically wrong and provide a superior arguement!!


Thanks !!!

Pseudoscience. You forget your laws of thermodynamics.

Babiloko: if d creator was created dhu u tink he'll stil b d creator?....GOD is d beginin, u'll stil find out in d end

Special pleading!

Let's take it that the universe reflects the complex order in God's mind, consequently if we are confronted with God's mind, we similarly must accept it is created!

italo: A claim is a claim. I claim God exists. You claim he doesnt. If you cant prove your claim, why should I prove mine? If God is yet to be defined as you say, how can you then assert that something you dont know/understand doesnt exist?

Yet my claim stands as an antithesis to yours! It is built against your claim. Your inability to create a coherent claim proves our claim!

italo: Where is the evidence for your claim that God doesnt exist? Simple.

That's a meaningless, baseless, foundationless question because it is utmost important the term God be defined and a claim thereof be substantiated! Hence automatically the theist is burdened with the responsibility to "make" his claim.

fadosky607: World's many religions have not been able to profer reasonable answers to mind bugging questions such as: if there's God who cares for us, why then does he allow suffering?

They've also taught and promoted false doctrines such as: hellfire, immortality of the soul(life after death), trinity, purgatory, etc.

These kinds of unfounded teachings contribute to the disbelief in God! But is it truly enough to doubt the existence of a creator-God? No!

Assuming u were walking on an island dat u presumed to have never been reached by anyone b4. As u walk around u see stones and fragments of rocks on the ground which would naturally not point to any previous intelligent activities on d island... But what if as u walk around as usual some other day and this time find a mobile phone dat has a sim card as well as numbers stored on it. U tried calling d numbers on d phone and they all went thru to different persons jus as it was stored on it? Would u still hold on to ur former opinion as to the non existence or previous existence of human activites? Not likely! A sound thinking person would always conclude dat d mobile phone didn't jus get there by chance but by a source...

In a similar vain, would it be wise to conclude dat such marvels as d human design and others can jus appear without a source?

What does "intelligently designed" mean?!

italo: Sorry, but what is the relevance of this to the existence or non-existence of God?

The relevance is the impossibility to intelligibly define God.

@image123

Image123: Nope, not only for the sins of their fathers but for their own sins too.
1Sa 15:32 And Samuel said, Bring near to me Agag the king of Amalek. And Agag came to him cheerfully. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death has passed.
1Sa 15:33 And Samuel said, As your sword has bereaved women of children, so shall your mother be bereft among women. And Samuel cut Agag in pieces before Jehovah in Gilgal.
Whatever a man sows is what he reaps. God tells us of His principle of judgement already i have shown.

Eze 18:5 But a man that is righteous and does what is just and right,
Eze 18:10 And if he fathers a violent son, who sheds blood and does to a brother any of these;
Eze 18:13 he has given on interest and has taken increase; shall he also live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; dying he shall die; his blood shall be on him.


ALSO,
Eze 18:14 Now, behold! If he fathers a son who sees all his father's sins which he has done, and sees, and does not do like them;
Eze 18:17 has turned back his hand off the poor, and has not received interest and increase. He has done My judgments, has walked in My statutes. He shall not die for the iniquity of his father. Living he shall live.


This principle is clearly repeated even in the story of israel, God's chosen nation. If you look at the captivity in Babylon for instance, God was to judge them already but righteous kings and generations like that of Josiah kept on evading the judgement. It was when hardened kings who did not listen to God or to His prophets got there, that they were eventually punished. Their cup was full as it were. They were offenders too.

But Agag didn't do anything wrong! And Samuel had said the rationale for the extermination of Amalekites was the fact the Amlekites in previous generations had attacked the Israelites in the desert when they were helpless!

italo: No. Religion is not illogical. It's Atheism that is illogical and I'll tell you why.

I tell you I know God is. That he is Spirit but can sometimes manifest himself in the physical or make himself perceivable to our natural senses. I tell you I have perceived him. Yet you claim I have never perceived him. How are you to know?

How can you say because you cant see something, it doesnt exist?

How illogical does it get?

You claim that I have faith without physical evidence...and I agree. You tell me I believe religious leaders when they tell me God is without physical evidence and I agree.


But the irony is: you believe man evolved from fish without physical evidence too. You believe in emotions like love and hate exist without physical evidence too. You believe because men have told you these without physical evidence too.

Evidently, even Atheists are people of FAITH too: BELIEVING without physical evidence.

Then, the troubling thing is: you ask me to use a telescope to show you a spirit.

Incredible!

Like a blind man asking me to show him a picture before he can believe something.

Spiritually, you are blind and will not perceive a spirit...

DOGMA!

I strongly doubt if you can intelligibly discuss the concept of spirits without borrowing from your physical experience and physical language.

What kind of "feeling" is there to experience God the spirit?!

FrostyZonn: All the folklores and myths passed down from generation to generations is a clear testament that humans started out as theist(obviously not from conception, but through evolution). Anybody saying otherwise, is living in fools paradise.

Man started out with curiosities, Curiosity begets Superstition, Superstition in turn begets questions, Questions beget answers. Answers beget Religion. That's my theory of how how man's belief in deities came to fruition. It evolved naturally...with no space for atheism.

Superstitions are eccentric interpretations of reality, in order to create meaning. It naturally occurs in all societies including atheist societies. Its pure prejudice to suggest atheism is unnatural.

maclatunji: ^Like what rights does a western woman have that a Muslim woman doesn't? Let us look at specifics, it is very easy to confuse perception with reality.

1. Right to free speech

2. Right against discrimination on the basis of sex/gender

3. Right to a livelihood

4. Right to a family

5. Right of full inheritance

6. Right to vote

7. Right to appear in public space

Just a few among many.

Image123: i have read your pos twice and had to wonder if it truly is directed to me.Are you aware that it was Amalek that was been punished, and not a bunch of innocents(whatever that means)?

The present generation of Amalekites were held accountable for the sins of their fathers, the attack against the Israelites in the desert. My contention is the wrongdoer or doers is absent! Hence the purpose of justice is defeated.

@eninn

The topic is about women's rights and in the course of this thread, it has become indisputable that the West offers more rights to women. However you seem to suggest the more rights, the worse it is.

I don't understand how you would be able to make a moral argument against human rights.