₦airaland Forum

Deep Sight: The point is the improbability of the existence of something such as a house - absent a builder.

You think that it is impossible for mindless matter to combine and coalesce over time to form a house. And yet you believe that mindless matter combined and coalesced over time to form the awe-inspiring house that houses you: your body: a fearsome mystery: a system more powerful, coordinated and intelligent than the most advanced computers can ever be. . . .

I always believe the builder's vision and mind complexity reflects on his work, the greater a genius he is, the greater his work. And I understand this example most theists readily make. However a bias appears, a confirmation bias -- producing the builder's example when there are many others ie a tree. Why can't we make an allusion of the Universe a tree?!

The next question is over 3 centuries old, how complex is the mind in which the Universe was designed? Note: that all complexities are deliberate constructs (theists' view), and as a matter of necessity complexities are designed, thus triggering a natural question who created such a mind.

I believe the theist must approach a degree of complexity he must believe is uncaused.

Logicboy03: intuition
ɪntjʊˈɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the ability to understand something instinctively, without the need for conscious reasoning

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DeepSight claims that we know God by intuition. This even makes God less real

It appears to be the opposite of deep thought/consideration.

OLAADEGBU: Here's how to get rid of the offense of God’s moral Law.

Simply call

Adultery an "affair,"

Covetousness (greed) "gaming,"

Brothels "gentlemen's clubs,"

Call lies "white,"

call murder "a choice,"

and homosexuality "gay."

Humanity may try and soften the Ten Commandments, but they were written in hard stone for a reason. They are permanent, and they will judge humanity on Judgment Day.

There is, however, another way to deal with the problem of the immutable Law. When a certain woman was caught in the act of adultery certain religious hypocrites wanted to stone her according to the moral Law. They threw her at the feet of Jesus and asked what He thought they should do. He had a suggestion.

He said:

"He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone at her,"

Then He bent down and wrote in the sand with His finger. No one knows exactly what He wrote, but some believe He wrote The Ten Commandments. There’s a reason for that. When God gave the Commandments to Moses, He wrote them in stone with His finger. Also, the function of the Law is to bring knowledge of sin (see Romans 3:19,20, 7:7, 7:13), and stir the human conscience. Those who saw what Jesus wrote were convicted in their conscience and they dropped their stones and one by one, left.

However. there’s one big difference in this case between the Law written in stone and the Law written in sand. Sand doesn’t speak of permanency. Because of the cross, upon repentance and faith in Jesus, our sins--in a moment of time, are washed away into the sea of God’s forgetfulness.

But there is no Hope in what you have said before the innocents suffer, we all suffer! And we ask why why why! What does any law have to do with aborted babies?! What does that have to do with stillborn babies? Or mentally impaired people?! How do you provide meaning for our sufferings?!

Logicboy03: Guy, you are only deceiving yourself. If you like, quote the whole thesaurus, it wont change the sound argument that Plaetton made.


1) Pictures are subjective in the sense that people's perception will be different when it comes to describing what they saw.
2) Intuition is not always right. Infact, the world was not made for us. So, our intuition can not be in exact tune with the world


Following point number 2, it is intuitive that the world is flat. If you meet tribal people in the north of Nigeria, they will tell you tht the world is flat. It takes deep study of sailing, waves and movement of the sun to realise that the earth is not flat, despite standing on flat ground.


If God is intuitive, then it makes it even better to argue against it.

Too far off, what is intuition?

OLAADEGBU: Does evil exist in your worldview? If yes, what constitutes as evil? Rape? Murder? Stealing? Or are you admitting that there is no good or evil in an absolute sense?

We will get to that, for now; clarify your position/worldview.

For today, I'm not an atheist, but a potential convert trying to make up her mind.

Deep Sight: ?

1st Picture -- invokes the resemblance of the Thinking Man, deep in contemplation. The strenous effort of reasoning -- gift from the Greeks.

2nd Picture -- A stone and the human brain. I immediately tick the brain off as fundamentally different from the stone, a mechanism responsible for the sustainence of life itself. However after viewing the first picture, i perceive a demand to think deeper, as a result I try to find similarities between the Stone and the human brain.

The structure of the stone is elaborately complex, owing to our knowledge of atoms, there is a specific arrangement necessary to provide the stone its dependable rigidity. The atoms themselves have an arrangement decided by tiny individualistic sub-particles, which make the most dazzling behaviour, yet a stone is firm, solid and dependable.

3rd/4th/5th pictures -- Growth/Evolution.

6th - - Monarchy. Traditional Authority which is questioned by nature.

Ola is right, Levites, Priests and Nazerites who all dedicated their lives to God never had sex.

OLAADEGBU: On what basis do you judge God? I thought you atheist assert that everything is relative, and there are no absolutes. Does evil exist?

Olaadegbu

It is clear you believe God exists

That God is loving and caring

That God is good. These form the basis of your worldview which I immerse myself into and probe for consistency. In so far as you judge God for being good, I can likewise do otherwise. Note that Good/Evil are taken as you define them.

OLAADEGBU: Do you want Him to start judging murderers and rapists now? If God judged evil today, all sinners would perish under His wrath. Thank God that He is patiently waiting for all thieves, liars, adulterers, fornicators, those who lust and those who hate to turn to the Saviour in repentance and be saved from His terrible wrath.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) The Evidence Bible.

This is a roundabout effect, God punishes man through evil, evil becomes a tool in God's hands against us. It is contrary to God's intentions and obvious actions to claim rapists and murderers and thieves act independently of their will, rather than mere puppets in God's grand scheme.

How is it possible for God to separate himself from his actions?

Wouldn't I further God's will by poisoning the world?

OLAADEGBU: Let me put it to you in yet another perspective. If you were to place a dried out leaf into the presence of fire, you would notice that the fire would not hesitate to consume the leaf in a matter of seconds. The fire must consume the leaf because of its very nature. Even if the fire didn't want to dispose of the leaf, it wouldn't matter, it still must consume it because their natures are diametrically opposed one to the other.

As in Hebrews 12:29 describes God as a consuming fire. By His very nature, God must consume anything and everything that opposes His nature. We must put on the Lord Jesus Christ, or we will be consumed by the ever pure burning holiness of the King of Kings.

"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God" (Deut.4:24) The Evidence Bible.

Does that include rape victims? Poor children? Aborted foetus? Orphans? Widows? Is God's consuming fire deservedly on these victims? Are they responsible for their misfortunes and God's raging fire?!

Olaadegbu

From what you said, the suffering and evils we experience today are punishment from God, but it is all humans irrespective of their stations and stages in life that suffer, and one wonders who is God really punishing?!

OLAADEGBU: Let me put it into proper perspective to you. Mosquitoes are known to have killed more people than those killed in world wars, how about that?

Why is that so?!!!

You mean Custom to remember her memory just like Valentine's Day?!

Yet you have not still explained the meaning of Life, rather you have saddened us with your nihilism, that life is meaningless and useless. Does service and total self devotion to God or any other cause cure the nihilism?!

Kabieosi: @^^^

Because of the below verse with the punctuation : or colon which NIV and others choose to omit

"she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel"
- Judges 11:39

I hope you ALL did notice the punctuation mark (i.e. : or colon) in the above verse and what followed after it (i.e. the immediate five words after and ending with the custom sentence)

Words carry their self evident meaning, and accordingly Evil Brain especially, conveyed everyone's thoughts as to what Jepthatjh's vow meant. And I doubt if semi colons function to alter the natural meanings of words! The meaning of the words remain.

As to the sentence "she knew no man", I t means she was unmarried, childless, virgin. And that she would never be a complete woman (for her lack of children resulting from premature death).

okeyxyz: Firstly, you are not meant to be like Jesus.

Jesus was able to keep the laws perfectly because he was the physical incarnation of the law itself. He had perfect understanding of it, lived as the law and died as the law, thereby fulfilling it. After this fulfillment, then paves the way for the abolishing of the law, so no christian is expected to meet the obligations of the law anymore. It is abolished and you are free. So the Jesus you should follow is not the one who lived as the law of Moses, but the one who rose from the dead and lives as the law of liberty through the true spirit of God. They are not the same christ: The one who kept the law died, another rose from the dead. (2 Corinthians 5:16)

So you see the Law as chains tying Man down? In the absence of the Law, what orders Man?

God does accept human sacrifice except if the quality of the sacrifice is questionable.

Kabieosi: @mazaje

I am still referring you back to the punctuation; : (i.e. colon)

Go and find out the implications of the following punctuations too: bicolons and tricolons

The only human sacrifice God ever accepted was that of a sinless Man

A sacrifice is a token offering to appease God. Funny enough there is a long trail of human sacrifice in the Bible.

Agag.

Extermination of a population at a given city under direct commmands from God.

Kabieosi: @Evil Brain @mazaje

"she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel"
- Judges 11:39

I hope you both noticed the punctuation mark ( : ) in the above verse and what followed after it (i.e. the immediate five words after and ending with the custom sentence)
Go figure?

It is sooo clear. Evil Brain especially went through lengths reproducing the verses and connecting the dots carefully. The vow is to offer whatever (includes the unexpected regardless of value) and to crown it up, Jephtah never expected a human to be the first fto greet him. And he definitely did not plan to use the intended livestock either as a nun nor a monk!

I understand Christians try to put a purposive interpretation to an otherwise shocking tale, however where it is clear to all, there is nothing to be do. Besides Jephtah never had a good reputation.

[quote author=*Kails*]i believe so.
just as uboma said, the universe as well as nature is too orderly for it to have just "appeared" from a few collisions in the cosmos. anyway, this topic has become too redundant.[/quote]There is surely the likelihood God is orderly, which suggests the question why is God orderly?

Joshthefirst: slaving in bible times was different..speaking generally Yes, they became peoples property, but they were not sold as slaves as a result of racism, etc like we've seen in recent times. Take joseph for example, who was sold into slavery by his brothers. He was even made head of the house because of good merit and work.
Maltreatment of slaves was considered extreme generally. Unlike the recent negro slaving where once you became a slave, you became a prejudiced animal.
Another example is daniel and the jews in captivity in babylon. They were even granted authority.

The injustice and racism are clearly in the differential rule! Israelites are not to be taken nor seen as property but foreigners by virtue of being foreigners can be treated as property! The difference btw foreigners and israelites is on the basis of Race!

The Bible saw problems of slavery: the degradation of man and tried to maintain the dignity of an Israelite by making him exempt from slavery.

The height of the Trans Altantic Slave Trade was at a time Christian Europe was dominant. The Europeans didn't see any evil in treating their African heathen brothers as property if they were seen as "foreigners".

What I expected from the Bible given its purported endurance and usefulness across ages, was a progressive stance towards Slavery. A total abolition which would have served and wld serve as an inspiration to treat the human being as a deserving equal

However the Bible sinks like Quran in the morality of its day.

OLAADEGBU: Those who deny the fact that God is angry at sin insinuate that sinful man (with his measure of desire to see justice) is more just than God. This is an incredible affront to the integrity of God. The following Time magazine letter to the editor epitomizes idolatry (the oldest sin in the Book):

"Excellent topic! I truly enjoyed reading ‘Does Heaven Exist?’ I am a devout Christian, and I don’t give much thought to heaven. My spirituality isn't based on an anthropomorphic, kick$*!@ God who will throw four generations of children into eternal damnation because some distant forefather ticked him off [see Proverbs 28:5]. Heaven is the flip side of the absolutely barbaric notion of hell that evolved under that kick-butt mindset…To me, God is a symbol for something unfathomable, an utter mystery that fills my heart with joy and my spirit with song."

Regardless God's motives, to inflict sufferings and evil on the whole world without cause is unjust. The Christian God can not claim to be in the interest of salvation.

The most innocent humans: babies suffer from Evil, innocent ppl suffer from the lack of justice, the world is torn apart by the few agents of destruction. Over 40 million people died from a war that wasn't their fault.

Oladeegbu, God punishes regardless to cause.

Joshthefirst: You guys are acting as if you didn't read my posts. Did you not hear when I said that slavery in those days was different from the brutality of these recent times. Under Gods law, brutality and ill treatment of foreigners was not allowed.

Yet a human can be a property, and as a consequence be treated as a property (res) and not a person. This difference is very vital. There is an extent laws can go in controlling the properties of ppl.

Unlike in modern atheist secular society all humans are persons and have rights as such.

^^
The contention is whether God approved Slavery, not whether the devil or atheists created it.

At least Slavery is the most heinous sin in the secular atheistic deistic modern world's morality.

eduson33: Do you really need an answer?
Smh for you.
Just kneel down and beg for forgiveness before it's too late.

LMAO!! Its a sin to be inquisitive too!

uboma: Look around you, would u dare to say that God doesn't exist? The complexity of the Universe is just one of many examples. See the way the moon and stars provide light during the night and the sun during the day. Do you know that the earth is on the right position in relation to the sun for life to exist? If the earth had been an inch closer to the sun, everything on earth will be @ boiling point? An inch away from its present exact position to the sun, the earth be on freezing point, too cold to allow life to flourish.

Now consider the way the human body was beautifully designed to enjoy life. What about other creations too? These living things didn't just come by chance. God created them. What about the oxygen we breathe in? Do you know that if God seizes the air we breathe in, not even you who is wondering about the existence of God, will be alive today?

Hey how do you know God's handiwork?! Why can't complexity be a result of a mechanism such as survival of the fittest?!

Ola clearly from your post, God is the Cause of the Suffferings and Evils in the World! God cursed and destroyed earth based on the disobedience of one man, why should we believe his promises?! Why accept his campaigns for a greener better future?!

On the transgression of one man, he condemned the world and the unborn. Justice indeed!

It is similar to bargaining with the devil!

Ola my main question is how many tombs are in Jerusalem, how many are in the Garden?

OLAADEGBU: I had posted earlier that the Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam's transgression.

Hence God created and is directly responsible for all the Evils and sufferings we experience not the Devil, right?

LMAOOO!!!

Ola you can be so spectacular!!

What makes the tomb Jesus' ?!

Ass far as skeptics are concerned there isn't that smoking gun evidence that this is indeed Jesus' tomb.

The only exception is if Jesus' tomb was the only tomb in Israel at that time.

A special question: what dating method was used?

^^

You always manage to throw us off track, the main gist for now is why there is Evil in the world today. Man obviously has no power to cause/create grand scale disasters, Death, diseases. The buck lies at the feet of the Creator. So you can't run around and begin to claim the goodness of God, when his purported Creation doesn't support such claim.

OLAADEGBU: What forensic analysis did require for you to believe Abraham Lincoln existed?

But you believe the eyewitnesses of Abraham Lincoln's existence, no?



If I show you the evidence will you believe it?

This is just an emotional outburst, where is your evidence?



They did, it's just that you've refused to believe it.



All the problems you listed are only problems of the skeptics. The OP is the skeptic mouth stopper that you need.

1. The so called eyewitnesses do not testify directly, rather the Gospel writers testify based on hearsay from the purported eyewitnesses' testimony.

2. Do provide the evidence of the tomb as that of Jesus.

3. Inconsistency among the Gospels, which I will handle separately.

4. What are Matthew's Mark's Luke's sources?!