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Christianity Etc › Re: Our Ancestors Never Accepted The "Whiteman's" Religion. Or Did They? by KnownUnknown: 1:19am On Jul 07, 2022

elated177:
What sort of question is that?

Let me rephrase.

What do you think of the actions of The Lord, Moses, and Israel regarding the Midianites as written in The Book of Numbers, Chapter 31?

Christianity Etc › Re: Our Ancestors Never Accepted The "Whiteman's" Religion. Or Did They? by KnownUnknown: 6:30pm On Jul 06, 2022

elated177:
Check the portions of the Scriptures below and tell me what you think about the one you mentioned.

Leviticus 18: 24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

Leviticus 20:22“‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out.

2 Kings 25: 7 They killed the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes. Then they put out his eyes, bound him with bronze shackles and took him to Babylon. 8 On the seventh day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, an official of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 9 He set fire to the temple of YHVH, the royal palace and all the houses of Jerusalem. Every important building he burned down. 10 The whole Babylonian army under the commander of the imperial guard broke down the walls around Jerusalem. 11 Nebuzaradan the commander of the guard carried into exile the people who remained in the city, along with the rest of the populace and those who had deserted to the king of Babylon. 12 But the commander left behind some of the poorest people of the land to work the vineyards and fields.13 The Babylonians broke up the bronze pillars, the movable stands and the bronze Sea that were at the temple of YHVH and they carried the bronze to Babylon. 14 They also took away the pots, shovels, wick trimmers, dishes and all the bronze articles used in the temple service. 15 The commander of the imperial guard took away the censers and sprinkling bowls—all that were made of pure gold or silver.
16 The bronze from the two pillars, the Sea and the movable stands, which Solomon had made for the temple of YHVH, was more than could be weighed. 17 Each pillar was eighteen cubits high. The bronze capital on top of one pillar was three cubits[f] high and was decorated with a network and pomegranates of bronze all around. The other pillar, with its network, was similar.

Jeremiah 9: 19 The sound of wailing is heard from Zion: ‘How ruined we are! How great is our shame! We must leave our land
because our houses are in ruins.’”

Ezekiel 36: 16 Again the word of YHVH came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are YHVH’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the people of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

Jeremiah 52: 12 On the tenth day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, who served the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 13 He set fire to the temple of YHVH, the royal palace and all the houses of Jerusalem. Every important building he burned down. 14 The whole Babylonian army, under the commander of the imperial guard, broke down all the walls around Jerusalem. 15 Nebuzaradan the commander of the guard carried into exile some of the poorest people and those who remained in the city, along with the rest of the craftsmen[d] and those who had deserted to the king of Babylon. 16 But Nebuzaradan left behind the rest of the poorest people of the land to work the vineyards and fields.

Jeremiah 52: 24 The commander of the guard took as prisoners Seraiah the chief priest, Zephaniah the priest next in rank and the three doorkeepers. 25 Of those still in the city, he took the officer in charge of the fighting men, and seven royal advisers. He also took the secretary who was chief officer in charge of conscripting the people of the land, sixty of whom were found in the city. 26 Nebuzaradan the commander took them all and brought them to the king of Babylon at Riblah. 27 There at Riblah, in the land of Hamath, the king had them executed.
So Judah went into captivity, away from her land. 28 This is the number of the people Nebuchadnezzar carried into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews; 29 in Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year, 832 people from Jerusalem; 30 in his twenty-third year, 745 Jews taken into exile by Nebuzaradan the commander of the imperial guard. There were 4,600 people in all.

After reading those ones above, read Numbers 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26.

Fine, I’ll answer first.
I think it is abhorrent and is an example of the depravity that mankind is capable of if not instructed otherwise. If it relates a true story, it is akin to Boko Haram, Chibok girls et al. It shows that people can be made to commit atrocities in the name of god and still consider themselves the moral and ethical party. I consider the chapter to be an example of evil and wickedness with YHVH Almighty used as justification.

What do you think of Numbers Chapter 31?

Christianity Etc › Re: Where Was God Before He Created The Heavens? by KnownUnknown: 4:52pm On Jul 06, 2022

YourHighTension:
All these are just semantics.

No, they are valid questions about the claims you made. You seemingly made claims about a man called Creator so my questions are for clarification.

Christianity Etc › Re: Where Was God Before He Created The Heavens? by KnownUnknown: 12:00pm On Jul 06, 2022

Wilgrea7:
In regards to whether a thing can create itself, i have been saying one things since. That anything that begins to exist must have a cause. Simple. The phone in my pocket.. the universe we observe today.. began to exist at some point.. so it has a cause.

Everything that begins to exist may have a cause but that cause is the reconfiguration of things that already exist.
The “cause” of a child that will be born 18 months from now will be fertilization or an ovum by a spermatozoa that probably do not exist yet but everything that will compose the body of that child already exists and has always existed. Just a reconfiguration of what already exists.

The universe did not begin to exist. What astrophysics teaches is that a “primeval atom” or “singularity” expanded not that it began to exist.

One can say the expansion itself had a cause but the cause could very well be an inherent attribute of what expanded making the universe the “first cause”.

Christianity Etc › Re: Where Was God Before He Created The Heavens? by KnownUnknown: 11:27am On Jul 06, 2022

YourHighTension:
Looking at the design of the entire universe, the cycle of life, the design of the human body, plants, animals, the solar system etc, I have come to strongly believe that there has to be a Creator.

I don’t see any evidence of design, but regardless.
Why does it have to be a “Creator”?
Why not “Creators”?
Why is “Creator” written like a proper noun?

YourHighTension:
How He came about? I bother less.

Why He?
Why not She?
Why not They?
Heck, why not It?
Why is “He” written like a proper noun?

Christianity Etc › Re: Our Ancestors Never Accepted The "Whiteman's" Religion. Or Did They? by KnownUnknown: 12:06am On Jul 06, 2022

elated177:
Huh?

Do you consider Numbers Chapter 31 to be an example of “evil and wickedness”?

Christianity Etc › Re: Our Ancestors Never Accepted The "Whiteman's" Religion. Or Did They? by KnownUnknown: 9:55pm On Jul 05, 2022

elated177:
The premise of this thread is that if our forefathers had actually accepted the Good News of the Kingdom of YHVH Almighty, they would had taught the same to their children, who would had taught the same to their own children and so it would had continued till this our generation. If this had been the case, the society would have been a different one. They never stopped worshipping whatever it was they worshipped. The result is what you have today. "Churches"are everywhere, but evil and wickedness are pervasive. What does that tell you?

Evil and wickedness. What do you think of the following(assuming the Lord in question is YHVH Almighty)

Numbers 31:
They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses,(I) and killed every man.(J) 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba(K)—the five kings of Midian.(L) They also killed Balaam son of Beor(M) with the sword.(N) 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women(O) and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder.(P) 10 They burned(Q) all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.(R) 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals,(S) 12 and brought the captives, spoils(T) and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly(U) at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.(V)

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice(X) and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident,(Y) so that a plague(Z) struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,(AA) 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads(AM) of the community are to count all the people(AN) and animals that were captured.(AO) 27 Divide(AP) the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord(AQ) one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.(AR)” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils(AS) that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the Lord(AT) was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;
40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastors Are Not Scammers by KnownUnknown(op): 12:00pm On Jul 04, 2022

essentialone:
All ~~Nigerians~~ Pastors are scammers and deceivers. Know this, and know peace.

Christianity Etc › Re: Fr. Evaristus Bassey: ''Virgin Mary Appeared To Church Members In Calabar" by KnownUnknown: 8:49pm On Jul 03, 2022

sonmvayina:
She is the queen of heaven..

I have it on good authority that she is the Prime Minister of Heaven.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 3:04pm On Jul 03, 2022

budaatum:
P.s. Every verse (and book of this type) must be taken in context, Known, not only of the book itself least one only eat bread, but of its writing, and who wrote it, and the sort of writing it is, and why it was written, and the effect it's reading has on different readers, and how it has been used by different people, and why it's use has survived so long, and the effect it has had on oneself, on one's society and one's community and why.

As you can see, quite a lot of contextes, of which asking and knocking and seeking, as in, research, is required to know what truth and lies are in the Bible and why, and I am very pleased that we can be here deciphering both, because, in so doing, even by our mere arguing et al, our knowledge is increasing which is a good thing even if it is being done through engaging with what may be untruths.

If you'd like us, you and I, to dump the Bible for Adam Smith or Things Fall Apart or any other book worth reading, do tell please. They all have truths and untruths, if broadly defined, and there's no reason we can't be arguing about football instead, yet here we are where our interests lie, in arguing about a book of so called untruths, lol, instead of learning as much as we can from and about it, a truth I doubt you'd deny since you seem to have yourself done some already.

Lmao

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 12:35pm On Jul 03, 2022

budaatum:
We have been here before and I bet we are heading nowhere like we did then.

It's a big book, Unknown, and I've chosen just one verse for us to begin with. And it is unlike Genesis 3:14 which is part of a story that can only be taken in the context of Genesis 1-3, and even on to 5 for its truth, if any, to be derived if one has the patience to derive it for oneself, which, if I'm not mistaken, you don't particularly have the time for.

Lmao.

1 Like 1 Share

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 12:11pm On Jul 03, 2022

budaatum:
I did ignore your "truth about Jesus" question since I never claimed any such thing. And I posted from wiki to debunk your narrow definition of truth you were trying to drive me down.

budaatum:
KnownUnknown, MindHacker9009, do note that there is a difference between the existence of a Jesus Christ, and the truth of what is read about a Jesus Christ in the Bible.

budaatum:
Now, for a simple truth in the Bible.

It is true that if adult you do not work (stealing and begging and inheriting included), you will starve.

Now see it written in the Bible and let me know if it is true or not.

So, the truism you wrote above is the so called “truth”?. Like a typical Christian you claim not to be, you quote a random verse out of context in attempted support of your nonsense.
What a joke. You should have quoted Genesis 3:14 or the verse proclaiming childbirth as a “curse”.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 10:25pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Did Vespasian save people from their sins? To be clear, messiah in what context exactly? A liberator of the Jews?

Sin is not a real thing that people to need saving from.
Savior, liberator, and anything else messiah means to them.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 10:20pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
And what are the disputes with the nations that descended from Shem, Ham & Japheth?

Jewish tradition is not history. “Nations” did not descend from mythological characters from Hebrew mythology.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 9:48pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Vespasian was the “Messiah” in what context?

Judaism

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 9:46pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Well, your argument is with the widely accepted first century historian, not me

Widely acccepted does not mean everything he wrote is “widely accepted”. Skepticism and reasoning are still used regardless if the historian is widely accepted or not. Jewish tradition is not history, so it doesn’t matter if widely accepted Josephus wrote it.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 9:42pm On Jul 02, 2022

budaatum:
That was not the question, Known. Least it's not one I was engaging with as its kind of like asking "what is the truth about Okonkwo in things Fall Apart".

Please see the question below, but if the above has become your question, buda rests.

Yes it was the question. And no one asked the truth about Okonkwo. If the “truth about okonkwo” was the issue then the question would be asked.

budaatum:
KnownUnknown, MindHacker9009, do note that there is a difference between the existence of a Jesus Christ, and the truth of what is read about a Jesus Christ in the Bible.

KnownUnknown:
What truth is read in the Bible?
What truth is read about the Jew with the Graeco Roman name who was the “Christ”?

Purposefully ignoring the question.
I obviously asked what is the truth about Jesus.
Regardless if it’s the Bible or just Jesus, you still didn’t answer the simple question.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 9:05pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
You hastily assumed my source was the Bible.

Read up the Antiquity of the Jews by Josephus. It also explains how the nations found their roots.

And where did Josephus find it? Jewish tradition is not reality or fact.

And since Josephus seems to be impeachable to you, do you agree with him that Vespasian was the “Messiah”?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:56pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
It’s history, Yosef the Father of Yeshua was a Carpenter.

What is the source of this history?
Does it mean Yeshua was just a regular old carpenter’s son and that the other “father” is just tales by moonlight?

OkCornel:
My bad, Yehudah is the Hebrew name for Jude.

Okay. Was Yehuda Taddai his brother or one of the 12 disciples?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:54pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
For goodness sake, check the nations which descended from Shem.

Japheth is the ancestor of the Europeans.

For goodness sake, your Bible is not historical fact. Humanity is not the result of the Hebrew god drowning everything. Mankind is not descended from the incestfest of one 500 year old man and his family.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-are-the-semites/amp/

The Bible tells us that everyone on earth was drowned except for Noah and his family and that all mankind are descended from his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The lines of descent from the three of them, described in the tenth chapter of Genesis, represent a kind of mythologized ethnology, enumerating the peoples of antiquity whose names were known at the time when this chapter was written, and setting forth the relationships between them.

In later times the idea was widely adopted by Christians, and to a lesser extent by Muslims and Jews, that the three sons of Noah represented the eponymous ancestors of three major racial or linguistic groups. According to this interpretation, Ham was the ancestor of the dark‑skinned peoples of Africa, Shem of the Hebrews and their various cognates, and Japheth the ancestor of the Medes, Persians, Greeks, and other peoples who, many centuries later, came to be known as Aryans.

The total implausibility of such a theory, in the face of the historical, linguistic, archaeological, and ethnographical evidence, did not prevent its survival until the 19th century among scholars, and for very much longer among non-scholars.

While Shem and his sons are of biblical antiquity, the Semite is of much more recent origin, dating from 18th‑century Europe.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:49pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Lol NDE is evidence of brain under stress?

Yes it is, what is so funny about that?!. Is a “near death experience” not a stressful event?

OkCornel:
I pray tell, why don’t mentally stressed people have NDEs by default?

A brain under stress also include medical emergencies or is that not apparent?! Is the brain of a person on an emergency table under stress?

OkCornel:
An average Nigerian in this Buhari regime should have NDEs on a daily basis hmmm?

Im sure some that have had medical emergencies that led to the loss of consciousness would have experienced NDE event.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:35pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Semite (Iranians, Iraqis, Israelites for example)

Other than Eurocentric types and their disingenuous classifications, none of these “semites” consider themselves whatever Semite is supposed to be.
Read for yourself.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-are-the-semites/amp/

OkCornel:
Caucasian (white Europeans and Americans)

What is a white European and where are they from?

Are there other types of Europeans apart from the white ones? Are those also “Caucasian”.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:29pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
His father Joseph was a carpenter. Yeshua Ben Yosef means (Jesus son of Joseph)

So Yosef, a carpenter in ancient Judea, had a son named Yeshua. Is that tradition or history?

Also, if I follow your argument does it mean Yeshua was an ordinary man with a father named Yosef?

OkCornel:
Jude (Judas) also bears Thaddeus.

It appears Thaddeus is Greek so maybe it should be Judas Taddai?

Also, tradition says Thaddeus is one of the 12 and not the brother.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:18pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Elijah and Enoch didn’t die

Talk for another day.

I was in Mesopotamia along the banks of the Euphrates. I met a 946 year old androgynous being with the visage of a 21 year old. They are immortal.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:13pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Yeshua Ben Yosef (the Carpenter), born of Miriam, elder brother of Ya’koub (James) and Thaddaeus (Jude)

If the Hebrew names make you more comfortable, I’ve included them.

Nice, except you should have changed Jude to Judas not Thaddeus.
Where did you get that his name was Yeshua Ben Yosef and how do you know he was a carpenter?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 8:11pm On Jul 02, 2022

budaatum:
See what you've listed as the things in the Bible in which you seek for truth, KnownUnknown. Can you consider that others might see different things to what you see for starts, or do you think everyone sees equally?

Budaatum, what is the “truth” about Jesus Christ in the Bible was the question.

budaatum:
What if I tell you there is more than that in the Bible that could be considered to be true. And no, I do not mean your narrow definition of truth but at least this much of it.

Posting a Wikipedia article does not answer the simple question asked.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 7:26pm On Jul 02, 2022

“”What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.“- Martin Luther

OkCornel, he wasn’t the first “man of god” to have such thoughts. Your Josephus evidence could be the same or they could be authentic. What’s probable?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 7:14pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Whatever

What, people don’t die?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 7:14pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Yeshua the elder brother of James and Jude. Born of Mary and executed by Pontius Pilate.

The one whose followers were blamed for the great fire of Rome in 64AD

That is the specific character we’re discussing here. Thanks

Or are you aware of other Yeshuas that fit into the above description?

Okay, do we know the surname of this Yeshua who had a brother with the English name of James?

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 6:56pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
Can we stay on the topic of this thread?

EXISTENCE.

If he existed he’s been dead for 2000 years.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 6:55pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
I guess the several thousands out there corroborating same experience from their NDEs are delusional too.

NDE’s are not evidence of anything but a brain under stress. I wouldn’t call them delusional just like I wouldn’t call people who ascribe meaning to dreams as delusional. Just mistaken and superstitious.

OkCornel:
Anyways, not to derail this thread, we are discussing THE EXISTENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

If you want to talk more on the picture, there are multiple threads on this platform this has been discussed.

Don’t distract me

Yeah, that dude didn’t exist either. Maybe Yeshua existed but a thousand and one Yeshuas have existed but that doesn’t mean one of them was the “son of god”.

Christianity Etc › Re: *************************** by KnownUnknown: 6:50pm On Jul 02, 2022

OkCornel:
If you don’t know the difference between a Semite and a Caucasian, I guess you’re in the same group with them.

“Semite” or “Caucasian”. He could have been “mongoloid” for all I care but that doesn’t prove that he could walk on water or committed pseudo-suicide on your behalf.

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