₦airaland Forum

RealAbba:
The way he even writes "Allah of the Muslims" tells you that he just wants mock you. Allah guides whom he wishes.

He is Allah of the Muslims, is he not? He is not Zeus of the Greeks, Ogun of the Yorubas, or God of Israel aka YHWH, so?

IMEI:
✓ I know, I know her posting history... it's a woman

Oh wow...gender matters as far as what here? your response or what?

IMEI:
✓ In trying to make a mockery, you're making yourself look more stupid

Make a mockery of what? You? Why? The other fellow whose suggestions seem to conflict with yours equally claims to be a Muslim.

IMEI:
✓ I say what I say, you understand what you understand
You're the one who's confused, you do the picking

This confusion stems from your earlier response insisting that the punishment of this life as instituted --the torment of pharaoh-- by the Allah of Muslims on Pharaoh began at the point that the plagues were initialized.

IMEI:
✓ [b]The punishments of this life began with the plagues and were sealed with the drowning [/b]after he and his armies followed Moses and his followers across the sea

IMEI:
➜Whatever torment that was visited, was for pharaoh and those who followed him

Really? So, Allah of the Muslims responded just before death to all the non-muslims among the Pharoah's people who died during the whole ordeal?

IMEI:
➜The plagues were only the beginning and were warnings at that point, the painful punishment is the one that finishes off the receiver and guarantees eternal punishment, which in this case is the drowning
➜The same as Prophet Lut in Sodom and Gomorrah, Prophet Saleh, Prophet Nuh (peace be up on them all) Allah accepts the repentance of a man so long as the death rattle has not yet reached his throat (Google this)
➜Repentance was closed off to the pharaoh when he was about to die at the very point of death

Again, you saying that Pharoah was a condemned man, no longer able to become a muslim, after the plagues instituted by Allah of the Muslims began?

2. The plague in Pharoah's case started before the death rattle — his actual drowing incident. Or are we talking of a different death rattle here?

3. You said ealier that it was closed off when the plagues began. Now you are saying it was when he was about to die — drown. Can you pick one please?

IMEI:
➜Maybe you just need to humble yourself and learn from those who know

. Humble in this case meaning? The last I checked, humble has nothing to do with reading and understanding the content of a book, but you seem to think differently.

Anyways, according to you, once Allah of the Muslim's torment begins — in this case, Pharoah's torment began when the plagues started— all doors to becoming a Muslim are closed. Is this the case?

IMEI:
➜Are you quoting Qur'an or Bible? Don't use biblical evidence to challenge qur'anic positions

Pharoah was a god over his people, right? And the plagues that you mentioned impacted him and his people, right? Where they all local to the Pharoah?

The Pharaoh was now in a dilemma. He had no intention of allowing Bani Isra'i1 to leave Egypt. In the years that followed Egypt was visited by several calamities such as floods, locusts, lice, frogs appearing in food and utensils etc. (these have been described in the Qur'an as آيَاتٍ مُّفَصَّلَاتٍ (Signs distinct 7:133). The Pharaoh would, at the time of each such visitation, approach Sayyidna Musa (علیہ السلام) and promised to release Bani Isra'il from his bondage and let them leave Egypt if he prayed to Allah to deliver him from the disaster. But as soon as the affliction was removed through the prayers of Musa علیہ السلام the Pharaoh reneged on his promise.

This happened several times until Allah commanded Sayyidna Musa (علیہ السلام) to take Bani Isra'il with him and leave Egypt. One night he and the whole tribe of Bani Isra'il quietly stole out of Egypt. The next morning when the Pharaoh discovered their escape, he assembled his army and went after them. Sayyidna Musa (علیہ السلام) and his men soon came to a river which had to be crossed. Allah commanded the river that when Sayyidna Musa (علیہ السلام) would strike its water with his staff it should part to make twelve exits for the twelve tribes of Bani Isra'il and that when they had crossed over, it should resume its normal flow again.

IMEI:
➜My advice, get a Qur'an and read Or go to Qur'an.com All your answers are there, if you care

I have actually read the quran before now. I did not memorize any of the tales contained at the time.

Anyways, according to you, once Allah of the Muslim's torment begins — in this case, Pharoah's torment began when the plagues started— all doors to becoming a Muslim are closed. Is this the case?

IMEI:
➜The punishments of this life began with the plagues and were sealed with the drowning after he and his armies followed Moses and his followers across the sea

Huh? So, all the other Egyptians who were caused to die by way of the plagues were all as part of the Pharaoh's torment? And this is how the Allah of the Muslims deals with everyone who is not a Muslim or was this torment particular to the Pharoah?

IMEI:
➜God spoke to pharaoh through Moses, He sent Moses to pharaoh God spoke to Moses directly, He spoke to pharaoh through His Messenger Moses who He spoke to directly The problem is my overestimating you, I'll be responding to you like I would a baby Those who God had decreed punishment for, their repentance weren't accepted at the time of punishment:
Chapter 10 Verse 96 - 98 "Indeed, those against whom your Lord’s decree ˹of torment˺ is justified will not believe. even if every sign were to come to them—until they see the painful punishment. If only there had been a society which believed ˹before seeing the torment˺ and, therefore, benefited from its belief, like the people of Jonah. When they believed, We lifted from them the torment of disgrace in this world and allowed them enjoyment for a while."
➜ From the above it's clear that 'belief' only benefits before the decreed punishment begins
➜ Furthermore:
Chapter 4 verse 18 "However, repentance is not accepted from those who knowingly persist in sin until they start dying, and then cry, “Now I repent!” nor those who die as disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment."
Here the Quran speaks of the exact situation in which pharaoh found himself. He had many chances to repent or believe prior to his last moment, but stubbornly refused. We are judged by what we do of our own free will, but at the moment of death it isn’t truly free will because the person sees their own lack of choice in the matter (of death), so that situation “pressured” them to repent or have faith. Death had come to him, and until the last moment he was chasing after Musa (Moses) and his people with intent to kill them. So this about-face occurred only under the duress and undeniable knowledge that occurs when one sees death just before the moment of death itself, barely enough time to have made his statement.

2. Interesting! So what you are insinuating is that even before he drew his last breath, Pharoah had already been condemned to torment by the Allah of the Muslims? Meaning that it did not matter at all that Allah of the Muslims responded(answered) to Pharaoh; even as he died, he remained a non-muslim. Right?

3. Based on this, wouldn't it then mean that Allah of the Muslims responds to the cries of non-Muslims at the point of death even though literally all death-bed confessions— since they are mostly made out of regret—are rejected by Allah of the Muslims?

IMEI:
https://quran.com/yunus
➜Chapter 10 Verse 96 Indeed, those against whom your Lord’s decree ˹of torment˺ is justified will not believe
➜ Chapter 10 Verse 97 even if every sign were to come to them—until they see the painful punishment.
➜ Chapter 10 Verse 98 If only there had been a society which believed ˹before seeing the torment˺ and, therefore, benefited from its belief, like the people of Jonah.1 When they believed, We lifted from them the torment of disgrace in this world and allowed them enjoyment for a while.

So, which of the above fits the case with Pharoah, and how?

Is the painful punishment death, in this case, drowning? Is the torment death(in this case, the drowning)?

IMEI:
➜https://quran.com/yunus

Why do I get the feeling that you don't even have a clear understanding of the topic itself? Either that or you have no answers, but in a desperate attempt to pretend you know, you feel posting irrelevant links would somehow make the questions go away? How else does one go about explaining the various attempts to derail, abeg?

Pharoah was at the door of death, then he cried out that he now believed and was a Muslim. Then Allah of the Muslims answered pharoah, insisting that Pharoah's corpse would be preserved as an example to others to come after him.
⚉ Where is it stated that Allah of Muslims rejected Pharoah's last-minute repentance since we are, in fact, being made to believe here that Allah of Muslims responded to Pharoah at the point of his death?
⚉ If Pharoah was a non-Muslim even up until his last breath, why did the Allah of the Muslims take time out to answer him?
⚉ Or, does Allah of the Muslims respond to the last-ditch efforts at the repentance made by everyone — regardless of whether they are Muslims or not?

IMEI:
1) You have comprehension issues Read from the link When you actually read up on Qur'an then we can debate, as for now, I can only tutor you since you know nothing
4) On what basis are you questioning my assertions, your poor grasp of a clear English translation? I'm not responsible for you not being able comprehend a straightforwardly worded verse of the Qur'an
5) If you'll not educate yourself from at the very least, the link I provided you, then you have only your time to waste

Did you read through the content of the link yourself? If yes, why aren't you able to point me directly to the lines that answer my particular questions to you?

Skimming through the content of the link, I have not been able to find any mentions of the events that took place right as the Pharaoh was dying, so what is it you are afraid of?

2. There is a lack of evidence for the additional claims you have made thus far regarding the information presented in verses 90-93 from Surah Yunus. If you insist that it is a poor grasp of English translation, then you should probably help me by providing me with the source for the additional details you introduced via your interpretation.

3. I see you are quickly turning this into an ego trip instead of responding appropriately to the questions asked.

IMEI:
➜This isn't worth responding to

Because asking you to verify claims you made is against Islam? I don't get it!

Can anyone who is not a Muslim invoke the attention of the Allah of the Muslims as you suggest Pharoah was able to?

IMEI:
➜The verse is contained in a Chapter called Yunus i.e. the 10th Chapter of the Qur'an and it has 109 verses in it. It details the in many verses the story of Moses and Pharaoh and the verse in question is part of a series of verses. If you want the full gist, read the Chapter. The story of Moses and the pharaoh is the most detailed and most mentioned story in the entire Qur'an and it has many verses in many Chapters detailing it. The status of pharaoh and his place with God is clear all across the Qur'an...the OP picked the least ambiguous story in the entire Qur'an to try to misreprent due to his ignorance. Read this below for the full story complete with references:
https://quran.com/en/20:41/tafsirs/en-tafsir-maarif-ul-quran

Is this some sort of attempt to deviate from the main topic or what? 😏

My questions were specific in this case. Where does your Quran make this statement that the Allah of the Muslims rejected Pharoah's request for repentance even though the Allah of the Muslims answered Pharoah during his last hours? Or where is it stated that last-minute requests of the kind offered by the Pharoah are rejected by the Allah of the Muslims? Where?

IMEI:
➜Qur'an is the direct word of God,
➜ this is God stating that He rejected pharaoh's claim of believing in Him
➜ God being the One who knows all things, knew pharaoh's motivations were phony and He rejected it...only God knows actual intentions and a person who genuinely repents is known by God, vis-a-vis someone who is insincere

You are allowed to believe what you wish of the book; that is not the concern here at all.

2. The fact that the verses quoted suggest that the Allah of the Muslims answered directly to the Pharaoh character implies that the Pharaoh's last-minute prayer was answered by the Allah of the Muslims. So, your insistence that the Pharoah's claim of believing was rejected by the Allah of the Muslims would require some additional support, should it not?

3. The Allah of the Muslims knew this, yet he chose to directly answer the Pharoah still. Come on now!

IMEI:
1. Nope he wasn't repentant, he was on the verge of drowning and sought to save himself that's why he said what he said. This was after he(pharaoh) was given numerous opportunities to repent
2. Accepting Islam on one's deathbed is valid up until a certain point, that wasn't the case with pharaoh
3. Like was pointed out, the verses are self explanatory...the verse after pharaoh claims to believe, his 'profession of faith' was rejected and he was made an example of for future generations. That's expressly clear
4. The Qur'an makes it abundantly clear that pharaoh stands completely condemned to God's punishment. In fact, no one is more condemned in the Qur'an than the pharaoh, so this extremely stupid attempt at misrepresenting Qur'an is idiotic

1. He sought to save himself, but how? The verse does not imply or say any of that, though. So why conclude this to have been the case?

2. Up until what point? Please, be exact. Can you include a reference to other statements that could support this claim that it was not the case with this Pharaoh dude that was mentioned?

3. My problem so far is not with what is stated in the verse but the assertions that have been made so far regarding what is presented in those verse. Almost seems you two are reading from other sources at this point. So, where is this other source?

4. Where does your Quran make this statement that you claim? Where?

Qasim6:
➜You are a joke! He was trying to repent when he was already facing death after he's been shown signs after signs. That kind of repentance is invalid.

So what you are saying is that deathbed confessions/attempts at repentance are invalid in Islam?

Curiously, last-minute regrets and attempts at repentance are very commonplace. There were probably many before Pharoah who also attempted to repent before their death. If Islam rejected all of their attempts as you claim, why the mention of this supposed attempt at repentance by Pharoah, then? I mean, this particular claim made in Islam comes well over 2000 years after the actual death of Pharoah. To what end?

Qasim6:
➜Pharaoh was in the middle of the ocean, he was about to be drowned. Then he was trying to repent thereby making the statement “I believe that there is no god except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am one of those who submit.”
The next 2 versesQ10-91 Now ˹you believe˺? But you always disobeyed and were one of the corruptors.Q10-92
Today We will preserve your corpse so that you may become an example for those who come after you. And surely most people are heedless of Our examples!
➜Reading these verses, are the verses pointing to pharaoh being a muslim?

⚈He was trying to repent, or he repented right before taking his last breath? I mean, why would a person make such a statement right before death if he did not in fact mean it?
⚈Also, does repenting just as one is about to die not qualify one to be considered a Muslim? Are deathbed confessions/decisions not considered valid in Islam?
⚈ What was the essence of making Phaoah an example for those to come after him? Was he made an example to others who would wish to convert to Islam right before the end? Or was he made an example for other powerful men who would come after him, pretending themselves gods over others when in fact they are nothing beside the Allah of Muslims?

2. The verses don't invalidate the claim made by Pharaoh. Your interpretation seems to, however.

Qasim6:
➜The verse he quoted and the verse that follows is self explanatory. Maybe you should check it out yourself then come back if you too don't understand.

Be specific! Explain yourself by citing the verses and how they are self-explanatory, according to you.

90 We brought the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his soldiers pursued them unjustly and oppressively. But as Pharaoh was drowning, he cried out, “I believe that there is no god except that in whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am ˹now˺ one of those who submit.”
91 ˹He was told,˺ “Now ˹you believe˺? But you always disobeyed and were one of the corruptors.
92 Today We will preserve your corpse so that you may become an example for those who come after you. And surely most people are heedless of Our examples!”
93 Indeed, We settled the Children of Israel in a blessed land,1 and granted them good, lawful provisions. They did not differ until knowledge came to them.2 Surely your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Judgment regarding their differences. - Verse 90-93 from surah Yunus

What exactly is one meant to comprehend from reading the above other than what is in fact stated as-is written?

Qasim6:
➜The way you guys reason, one can only pity you. Is it that you guys can't comprehend or u just choose to be ignorant deliberately?

Comprehend what exactly? Explain yourself!

Juliusdaughter:
Thanks to everyone for the response. I hope she's able to make the best choice for herself. It's funny how she's turned down 2 marriage proposals just because of the fantasy of being with this same guy

She shouldn't have to settle for less than the best in marriage either.

SmartyPants:
➜There are two separate stories in the OP. The one were the guy was returned with the kids is not the one where the woman has had a baby for another man.

All the more reason why rather than snippets here, we need a full story to better understand the reasons for each here.

FarmTech:
Pastor ABEL DAMINA is a Nigerian pastor that have been spreading false messages. Below are some og those false messages and bible verses that prove him wrong.
1. ABEL DAMINA: [/b]God is not in heaven. Anywhere God was before he created heaven, he is.
[b]BIBLE: [/b]After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name.
[b]Matthew 6:9 KJV
But OUR GOD IS IN THE HEAVENS: He hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psalm 115:3 KJV
and said, Behold, I SEE the heavens opened, and the Son of man STANDING on the right HAND OF GOD.
Acts 7:56 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, The HEAVEN IS MY THRONE, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?.....

For a people who subscribe to a religion that currently boasts of over 45,000 different interpretations/denominations, none of which in fact match up with details as recorded in the book that they claim they subscribe to, you would think that Christians would at some point accept their lot which is the endless reality of lies interpretations that are possible by way of their belief.

safarifarms:
➜@FarmTech the bible is a unique book that is not as simple as a mere novel. Let me just consider one or 2 of the points raised.
➜Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Where was God when he created heaven and earth?

Is this the reason why the religion of Christianity today boasts over 45000 different interpretations — a seemingly bottomless pit —to the contents of the books in the collection referred to as the Bible, all of which stand in direct conflict with the as-is content of the various texts?

2. I don't recall the book even suggesting that God lives in this place called Heaven, though. Rather, in the book of Isaiah, it is suggested that heaven is instead the throne room of the God of Israel. So, what is the why of your particular confusion?

jmoore:
➜So a wheelbarrow pusher should follow your lifestyle?

Absolutely not! People literally die after days of no water or even no food.

Juliusdaughter:
➜I've always known about the incompatibility, I just sometimes think about the few good things he did and the fear of having kids for more than one man"

You know that you are both clearly not compatible— red flags are literally flying all over the relationship you have had with him thus far—, yet you are willing to consider marriage to him, why? What is it that you are really afraid of? And why do you think settling for someone who obviously does not give a flying f0ck about you will change of it?

illicit:
➜Exactly. Cos minds wrote it too, whoever wrote it wants you to think in a particular way.
➜Do you think books wrote themselves? They are not that powerful, why we say books are powerful is because they contain another person's thought, history or ideas and you have to adopt them especially when it is termed "holy book"

Now you are confusing me!

2. So merely writing down one's thoughts gives power to the book enough to influence the minds of others?

What you are insinuating is that everything thought of by the human mind is meant to manipulate in much the same way you insist the books manipulate you because they were written from minds?

illicit:
➜Yeah. There's one other christain zealot here, who claims that Christians exist even before Jesus Christ...
He said there were Christians in Genesis I think the guy is really daft

The religious delusions people cling to reveal a lot of them. Even the religion of Judaism which we know of today had its roots, not in Israel but in Babylon as it was during the years that the Jewish tribes of Israel were in exile in the land of Babylon(later under the Persian Empire, then Greek Empire and eventually Roman Empire) that the religion took roots and grew to what we have today.

illicit:
➜If the books were left alone, it can't do anything to anybody's mind...

So, the minds are not at fault, it is the books to blame here with you?