₦airaland Forum

SmartyPants:
My condition number 1 has implicit conditions attached to it. You just never really understood it that's why I haven't specifically invoked it in the mithraism discussion. Mithraism has a creation story, however the religion itself has no links through to the beginning of time. There is no link that shoes how the mithraic god handed the religion in to "his creation". That is a violation of condition 1. Furthermore, implicit in the condition of having existed as a religion from the origin of life un its own historical narration, is the condition that it must continue to exist. Mithraism completely died out at some point in history. So does that mean the mithraic god stopped caring about humanity?

Now about Hinduism, you made assertions and the onus is on you to provide sources to prove them. You say Hinduism meets the four conditions. What is your source?

Please show me how your god handed over christianity during the creation at genesis. Even judaism didnt exist then.
Were adam, eve, cain and abel jews or christians. I am honestly tired of your lies and deceit.

Your religion claims to be connected to the creator god and mithraism also claims that, so please whats the difference.
You are just twisting and turning. Please show me any place in genesis chapter 1 to chapter 5 that talks about christianity or judaism.
Mithraism never died out just like the asatru religion it just lost numbers and influence. Even the greek religions never died out, they just lost influence. So stop twisting this. Mithraism meets your pathetic 4 conditions

I had said it over and over again that hinduism meets those conditions, when you claimed christianity met your conditions, did you provide links or proof? No. At least you assumed that we were smart enough to have read the bible at some point to confirm that it meets those pathetic conditions. Because you are ignorant about other religions doesnt mean you should continue wallowing in perpetual ignorance. I will list how hinduism meets your conditions and i wont do you the favor of providing links for you to read. If you cant find them then thats your business but any learned person that has studied religion will agree with this;

1. Hinduism allegedly starts at creation by Brahman as stated in their hindu vedas.
2.Hindu central characters are the avatars of Brahman e.g Lord Krishna. if we are to believe their book the way you believe your bible then they were all perfect.
3. Hinduism surpasses a set of rules as it also focuses on meditations, visions and a relationship with their gods
4.Early hindus faced persecution from their foes the northern indians

I am not responding to you again because you have shown yourself to be a typical christian apologist, shifting the bar when it suits you and using lies and deceit tactics.
Bye

SmartyPants:
Everything you quoted about mithraism paints the clear picture of people trying to revive a dead religion. If the religion could die, and requires someone to start if up again, it is a mere contrivance. More importantly, it is not even established, they are still trying to build it up. Its a waste of time discussing it.

To tell you the truth, i have not studied many religions in detail other than Christianity and Islam, I won't pretend to be an expert of Hinduism.

However, my research into Hinduism does not corroborate any of your claims:

http://www.hinduismfacts.org/basic-beliefs-of-hinduism/

So where are your assertions sourced from?

Very funny. There are people who still worship Thor and Odin and they are called Asatru heathens. its the same way there are still followers of Mithra no matter how few they are. When did the number of adherents start to matter to you? I thought it was just the 4 conditions you cared about? A religion meets the four conditions and you start talking about the number of adherents. There are more than 10,000 mithra followers in the world and even if its just 1 person, according to you if it meets the 4 conditions then it is true. SO why are you looking for escape routes or copouts.

Secondly, you posted a link about basic tenets of hinduism. Why dont you perform a research on Hinduism based on the four conditions you named and see whether it doesnt meet it.

Its good you admitted you dont have much knowledge about religion other than christianity and islam. So please do yourself a favor and read or should i say IQRA. Learn about other belief systems and enlighten yourself that you are not alone in your special delusion.

Sarassin:
Yes indeed, they are Divine words specific to the gentleman who posted in.

Hello Sarassin

Its nice to be addressing you again. I like your conduct on this forum, very mature, intelligent and never compulsive.

I have one question to ask your opinion of

What do you think happens after death?

Thanks in advance for your opinion

SmartyPants:
This is the tagline of the site you sent me:

"Modern explorations into the worship of Mithras, that make no claim to be the ancient Mithraic Mysteries."

Again, ab initio, not worth looking into.

I am not against rules of good conduct, however a religion has to offer more than that. That's the point. We already have our own rules of good conduct, and every religion has rules of good conduct. So religion must offer a unique connection with God. The Buddhists offer mediation for example, (though i disqualify them based on my other points).

Why are we going around in circles? did you bother to read the site at all?

Let me give you a glimpse of some of the content

Is a solitary Mithraist still a Mithraist?

Our answer is yes, provided that those who practice a modern path of Mithraism out of necessity do not confuse such practice with ancient Mithraism. Many pagan religious paths have been revived in the modern world over the past few decades. Experience has shown that real problems occur only when accurate history is lost, and modern adaptations are confused with ancient tradition.

The goal of Modern Mithraism is to keep Mithraism alive, not to replace the ancient Mysteries with something new. If individuals can keep themselves involved and make Mithraism interesting to others - it will make a reconstruction of the organized Mithraic Mysteries that much more possible.

Modern vs. Ancient Practice

As an organization, Mithraeum hopes both to encourage Modern Mithraism, and ensure that modern rites do not interfere with a rebirth of the ancient Mysteries as accurately as possible. In our view is a Modern Mithraic practice necessary for the survival of Mithraism as a path? Yes. In our view, is Modern Mithraic practice "just as important" as the ancient Mysteries? No, but that doesn't mean that modern rites are completely invalid either. If you seek Mithras with a sincere heart and a desire for knowledge, you will find him even if alone.

It is our great hope that Modern Mithraism will become a valuable tool for the rebuilding of accurate Mithraic Mysteries, not a watered-down modern replacement for them. Our goal is to make Mithras and his Light more available to the modern individual - even as we instill a desire for accurate scholarship and reconstruction.

The key to making Modern Mithraism a useful aid to rebuilding the Mysteries is clear labeling. Modern rites, rituals, festivals, prayers, ideas and writings should be clearly labeled as such. We must not confuse modern efforts with history today if we hope to rebuild something that is historically accurate in the future.

Hinduism has much more to offer than just rules. You have a very narrow unflattering view of any of your other religious brethren. Is it because you see all of them as worshipping the devil or demons?
Hinduism offers meditation, spiritual practices, prayers, fasting and most importantly a personal relationship with their gods and its avatars(Shiva, Krishna, Brahman etc). So i say once again Hinduism meets all those conditions you mentioned.
So ask yourself smartypants, why arent you a Hindu?

SmartyPants:
There is no mithraic religion in existence today. Thus ab initio this one is not even worth looking into.

I can't accept Hinduism because it seems based around rules for good conduct. I also believe that there is not reason behind some of their mystical beliefs such as cow worship.

Mithraism is still practised today. The link below shows that

http://www.mithraeum.info/mithraismtoday.htm

- Who are you to say hinduism is based around rules and conduct. Christianity has more rules than central hinduism.


If you feel there is no reason for cow worship please tell me the reason there is for believing in virgin births. You havent read about the cow worship and you are already believing there is no reason. Please tell me the reason and need for a trinity.

And while you are at it, please read the following link and tell me if hindus actually worship cows( at least its from the horses mouth)

https://www.nhsf.org.uk/2007/05/why-do-hindus-worship-the-cow/

SmartyPants:
Do you read selectively?

I clearly stated that other religions may fulfil some of the points so trying to argue based on each one is completely missing the point. You are the one going round in circles, going as far as changing the things i've said to things I never said.

In your last paragraph you make what i can only assume is a reference to the strawman fallacy which has no relevance to my original post, since a strawman fallacy is inherently always a response to an argument. Seems like you are thoroughly out of your depth here!

Why do i have to keep on repeating that i never said Christianity is the only religion that meets the individual standards, i said Christianity is the only one that meets them all. So any argument to prove me wrong can only take one of two directions, either to disprove my standards as standards in the first place, or to demonstrate that another religion meets them all.

You have done, neither, merely meandering from point to point bringing up different religions in each instance. You keep reiterating that my standards are not correct but you cannot offer even the simplest explanation for why they are not correct. I gave logical explanations for each of my 4 standards. I explained why i chose each one. The onus is on you, if you disagree, to show why i should not have chosen them.

Throwing insults about does not make you right or even make you sound clever. You just sound uncultured and anti-academic!

Let me give you an answer, a very simple one for that matter

Mithraic religion meets all four conditions
Hinduism meets all four conditions

SmartyPants:
You are getting childish now.

1. Your frustration is showing through in the fact that you have to resort to name calling. I've observed that most of you atheists who claim to be logical are actually incapable of behaving in a logical, unemotional manner. Why are you angry? Because someone has a different view from yours?

2. What is this, a high school fight were both combatants start claiming "i beat you"? Logically, only a neutral can tell you whether or not you made sense.

3. Playing sycophant by praising AgentofAllah, in order to get him to back up your assertions, and create a fasle sense of victory by virtue of numbers is the height of unacademic behavior. I'm not here for your atheist vs Christian e-wars. At the end of the day, what do you have to gain from that?

Unbelievable.

Now, whether you accept my explanation or not, the truth is there for all to see.

If my 4 conditions are wrong, i expect you to logically point out why each one cannot be a condition of a true religion.

Lastly, Christianity has actually gone all around the world today, so you claiming How come your god cant seem to reach more than 30% of humanity after 2000 years?" is bizarre. What stats is this assertion based on?

The only reason am getting annoyed is because you have been running around in circles. If i called you names dont be annoyed cause you clearly know what you are doing.

Your conditions are wrong . I pointed it out over and over again.
You foolishly claimed christianity started in the garden of eden which it didnt and i showed you it didnt and also showed you religions that allegedly started with their creation story but you wont just accept because you are a dishonest apologist throwing mental backflips just to avoid being busted.

You foolishly claimed Jesus was perfect and i showed you Mithra, Buddha etc and you just rigmaroled away. How do you even determine one is perfect? That the book written by the persons fans claim that. Well i can tell you that Tuface Idibia is the best musician the world has ever seen, why do i say so? because a book written by Tuface's fans claims that. What hogwash

I also showed you that christianity isnt the only religion that claims sonship, that buddhism offers something better, Hinduism claims it and many others.

And i also showed you that many other religious people have died for their faiths at the beginning of the movement.

Your darling christianity is not the only religion that meets this standard.

Christianity has 2.2 billion adherents, approximately 33% of the worlds population. I wont provide a link for you, if you cant simply type christian demographics in google then i cant argue with you.

In case you dont know, coca cola has more global appeal than your religion.

There are large swathes of the far east that have never accepted christianity and have just heard of it slightly. There are many that havent heard.

Arguing with you is pointless cause you started your argument with a useless strawman(4 useless conditions of religious truth). The strawman couldnt even hold water.

SmartyPants:
I've told you the name christian came from men. It was not used by Jesus, and it came a while after His death. This is stated in the Bible. So to premise your argument on the title, Christian, means you do not have an argument. The mode of worship may have changed. It doesn't make it a different religion. Both Judaism as you understand it, and Christianity as it is called by men, revolve around the Christ. The Jews believe in the Christ and look forward to His coming, whereas Christians believe He has already come.

I repeat, to premise your argument on the title, Christian, means you do not have an argument

"True religion of god that claims that god came to save the whole world must be useful and reachable to all men if not then how can you claim god is perfect."

No religion is reachable to all men in the sense in which you mean, so for the purposes on this debate, this point has no relevance. This debate is on Christianity vs other religions. And clearly christianity has reached many more people than any other religion.

If you want to worship stones that is fine. just make sure your stone worshiping religion can answer all the 4 questions.

You are just pathetic. If you like remove the name christian from it and claim its just a title. You are not and you have never been a jew or practiser of judaism. The last christian jew was Yahshua ben Yosef. If you like combine it as much as you want, this just reeks of mental gymnastics and pure dishonesty.

Why cant religion reach all men if it really comes from god. If Bill Gates decides to start a marketing campaign he could succeed in reaching all continents equally. Coca cola has succeeded in less than 300 years in reaching almost every human household. How come your god cant seem to reach more than 30% of humanity after 2000 years? how come all your religions must be either propelled or limited by regional, political and human factors.

Sorry man but your 4 conditions are just pathetic. I just decided to play along with it and even beat you in it.
In reality, who set the 4 conditions of religious truth? I guess its you and your deluded religious apologists. Thats why AgentofAllah didnt even bother to dismantle them because its pointless to do so.

And FYI, i wont worship stones but stone worshipping is as futile as dead men worship

SmartyPants:
Re:

1. Christianity is a belief in god through his alleged son Jesus christ's death

Hehehe. You are now defining Christianity in the way that suits you. Marvelous.

Christianity is not belief in God through His son Jesus Christ;s death. Christianity is belief in God and His son Jesus Christ's death.

The proper analogy is the question, the version of you that was in primary school and the version of you that is/was in university, are they not the same person at different periods of his life?

2 & 3. according to you, "You clearly stated that a religion will be true if it helps you connect to god better than the rest."

Where did i say this? This is becoming a trend in your posts. What i did say right from the beginning, was:

"Thirdly, the true religion must make sense but only in a way that surpasses what, for the purposes of this article, we have come to understand as arithmetic logic. [/b]Anyone can come up with a set of rules for human living, and certainly this is a component of almost all religions. But if rules for human living were all that religion could provide then we wouldn’t need religion, since we already have laws that regulate human conduct. [b]The true religion would have to offer an access route to God that is unique and yet beyond human understanding. This is simply because we have already established that God cannot be explained by arithmetic or linear logic, and we must think in terms of geometric logic or faith. Any religion that is based around understandable principles of human life therefore would appear to be a man-made effort to explain life and existence, instead of a God given answer. I insist that since God cannot be understood humanly, the route to God must include a solution which can be accepted as logical but humanly unexplainable."

It serves no purpose if you continually misquote me for reasons best known to you. Every religion claims to offer a connection to God. If this connection comes solely from rules of good conduct, then we do not need that religion since we already have rules of good conduct. I am sure some religions offer some explanation of how they offer a connection to God that surpasses rules of good conduct which is why i never said this was the only criteria. I said we should use a process of elimination to go through all four points. So honing in on each of my arguments individually instead of collectively makes no sense.

3. Regarding this line of thought:

"What will man gain if he comes to the world, lives for 70 years and never hears of Jesus or christianity(mind you, at least 90% of the worlds population that has ever existed falls into this category) then dies, gets judged for not having a belief he never heard and then is burnt in hell forever and ever and ever. Does it connect man to god? Answer is no
Does it help a so called omnibenevolent god to have humans come into the world and still not present itself to them but eventually judge them and burn them forever?"

Religion generally promises that those who adhere will achieve certain benefits which usually includes connecting with God. This promise is not for non-adherents so there is no requirement to prove that religion helps non-adherents to connect with God. My argument was never that the true religion must save all men by default.

1. You can try and run and hide but you cant. Has there ever been a time when christians offered sacrifices of ram, goat and sheep in Jerusalem?
Has there ever been a time when christians celebrated passover with lambs blood?
Has there ever been a time when christians got circumcised?
Has there ever been a time when christians had jewish high priests?

I could go on and on but christianity is not and will never be judaism
Because you believe and use the old testament doesnt mean that the old testament jews were ever christians
So dont try and join the two of them together to suit your point.

2.I wont even argue that again

3. True religion of god that claims that god came to save the whole world must be useful and reachable to all men if not then how can you claim god is perfect. If i decide to worship stones because i believe i will go to heaven then am just like you.

SmartyPants:
1. Sorry, when did you become and expert on Christianity? Christianity is a title that was developed by men. It was never used by Jesus nor was it given to us by God.

The followers of Jesus, believe everything from Genesis to Revelation. Our religion starts right in the book of Eden, when God said to Adam, "do not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", and includes the the period of the Law, which men refer to as Judaism. Can you separate your past from who you are? That is what you are trying to do when you claim Judaism is separate from Christianity.

So you have no point here, and although I can see why you would desperately like to hold on to this, you have to let go.

2. "Please stop using your limited,subjective christian worship experience to claim that your mode of worship helps you connect to god the most."

Why resorting to making things up? Can you show me where, in the whole of this thread i have said that?

3. "Religion doesn't have to be perfectly logical"

Never said this either. I used the word conventional not perfect. Are you just going to take everything i said and substitute it with words and sentences that say something entirely different that you want it to say?

I said religion cannot be expected to be conventionally logical but it is logical all the same. I quote myself again:

Religion cannot be required to be conventionally logical, since it involves belief in God and we do not fully understand God or the workings of the spirit world. Even if you do not believe in any religion, you do have to be open minded about that which we all do not fully understand. I also said that while we cannot expect religion to confirm to our scientific beliefs, we should have a logical answer for why we need one religion in particular

If you don't understand what i meant by conventionally logical, then replace the phrase with scientific.

My point was and is that:

(a) if science cannot provide the answers it is logical to consider the answer provided by religion as being perfectly possible. When you have eliminated whatever it is that you consider probable, then the answer lies in the realm of the improbable. This is what i refer to as unconventional logic, since by the process of conventional logical reasoning, we arrive at an unscientific answer.

(b) Since religion never claims to be conventionally logical (scientific), then you cannot question it for making incredulous sounding, unscientific claims. However, since we understand religion as the relationship between God and man, then every religious claim must make sense in that context.

For a example, a religion that states that man will turn into a laptop when he dies. Sure, i can believe that, but why should a man turn into a laptop? How does that serve the purpose of connecting man with God? I would need an explanation for that. So note this clear: I do not question the possibility of what any religion claims! I question the rationale behind the claims.

Since we have established that religion, no matter how improbable sounding it is to you, is very possible. and since religion involves believing in the possibility of the unknown, it is illogical to think it there is no logic in the possibility of what is currently thought to be scientifically impossible.

1. Let me ask you a simple question. When did you start existing? Is it when your father was born and the sperm that carried you was created in his testicles or when your mother reached puberty and had the ova that had half of your genetic information? Which is it cos i need to know

Christianity is a belief in god through his alleged son Jesus christ's death. Please when did that happen? was it during the farcical creation story or in the last 2 millenia.
With your logic i can say Nigeria is 10,000 years old since all the ethnic groups that formed it have been existing for even longer than that.
How do you murder logic just to justify your religion.
The progenitors and followers of your genesis and torah story are still following Judaism today, in fact nothing less than 80% of jews are practising judaism, so claiming attachment to a very old religion(judaism) even though it isnt the oldest, doesnt make your religion very old.

And for your info, i am at least 500 years old, my genetic info has always existed for at least 500 years

2. You clearly stated that a religion will be true if it helps you connect to god better than the rest.
So let me ask you. How can i know that you connect to god better than Ibrahim or Jiao or Kumar or Ogundele the babalawo?
Is there any proof of it? Do you after connecting to god, move with a glow on your head or carry something that no other religious group carries? Please explain it to me

3. You ask what a man will gain if he turns to a laptop when he dies. Then let me ask you
What will man gain if he comes to the world, lives for 70 years and never hears of Jesus or christianity(mind you, at least 90% of the worlds population that has ever existed falls into this category) then dies, gets judged for not having a belief he never heard and then is burnt in hell forever and ever and ever. Does it connect man to god? Answer is no
Does it help a so called omnibenevolent god to have humans come into the world and still not present itself to them but eventually judge them and burn them forever?
Why create a garden of eden and let a devil in it? Why create you when there is more than a 50% chance that you might not meet the pseudo standards of christianity and still burn in hell and to top it all off, the so called yahweh is omnipresent so it clearly knows before hand what will happen to you before it does.
So please tell me the purpose of all this?
Why let you come into the world so you can go through a test that will deem you fit/unfit for being with it? why not just create you in heaven?

I guess you will give me the standard answer of " God works in mysterious ways and logic cant explain spiritual things because spiritual things surpass it"

If you give me that usual copout, i can also confidently tell you that if man dies and turns into a laptop then dont argue about the purpose of it because you cant understand the workings of such a wonderful god because science cant explain everything with logic so there is a possibility that it makes sense but you just have to wait to confirm.

As far as i am concerned, your religion is as purposeless as the religion that claims a man will turn into a laptop when he dies

SmartyPants:
You do not understand. I never said all these points are unique to Christianity. I said only Christianity can claim to meet all four. Some religions can claim to meet 1 or 2 or 3 of the points but no one religion other than Christianity can claim to meet all four. That is and has always been the argument.

So with regards to:

1. Yes i am well aware most religions have creation story. If this creations story includes the beginning of their religion then they pass this first test.

2. I only used the ones you mentioned. I cannot possibly claim to know all religions. Those that passed test 1 will also have to meet test 2, which is laying claim to a perfect major proponent.

Test 3 of my argument is key and you really have to understand my initial argument. Religion cannot be required to be conventionally logical, since it involves belief in God and we do not fully understand God or the workings of the spirit world. Even if you do not believe in any religion, you do have to be open minded about that which we all do not fully understand. I also said that while we cannot expect religion to confirm to our scientific beliefs, we should have a logical answer for why we need one religion in particular.

You get it? All religions cannot make scientific sense because science itself is limited - it cannot explain all things. However, the stand out feature of any religion should be how it helps you connect to God. If it offers rules of good conduct alone, then it is not unique and fails this test.

3. Look at my previous answer. I said what is wrong with worshiping cows is the fact that we are superior to them in nature. What does that have to do with what you consider human sacrifice?

Within the context of religion, every occurrence is logical, since religion is not expected to be conventionally logical. What matters then, is what is the logic behind this story?

For example, if i say Jesus died and resurrected, the question should not be how did this happen, but why did this have to happen.

Please who says that those your 4 points are the four cardinal pillars of truth. Who made it so?
You just create a standard and assume anyone that meets it must possess the truth. All religions have their own standard and claim only them meet it. And please christianity doesnt meet all 4. I can tell you that your central character wasnt perfect by any ramification. I can also tell you that christianity started existing 2000 years ago and drew from Judaism just like Islam did.

1. I am tired of saying this over and over. Christianity didnt start with Genesis so your christianity fails. Ifa religion started with Obatala and creation. Hinduism started with Brahman creating the world. So sorry your religion is not unique

2. The buddhists will gladly tell you that they connect to god in the best way ever. The new age spiritualists dont want it any other way but theirs because they feel the experience is priceless. Please stop using your limited,subjective christian worship experience to claim that your mode of worship helps you connect to god the most. As you connect to your god, do you walk around with god literally on your shoulder? is there anything you possess that other religious people dont have? SO how do i know yours is the best connection to god. I can also tell you that Igbo language is the best language because it is the sweetest flowing language from a humans mouth(now beat that). Stop using your subjective experience to judge.

3. This is where you shoot yourself in the foot.
According to you - " Religion doesnt have to be perfectly logical"
Then later according to the same you - " We shouldnt worship cows because we are superior to them" (pure logical thinking)
You know logically that humans are smarter, better, more efficient than cows and are masters to them so therefore we cant worship them, this is simple logic which you claim religion cant possess
But you also know that a snake can talk and a donkey can talk and a human sacrifice justified your ancestors, the world was destroyed by a flood and was also created in six days.
Why do you chose to suspend logic when it comes to your darling religion that you were indoctrinated into?

If you can believe all the rubbish in christianity then how can you with a straight face say you shouldnt worship a cow

let me try and sound like a Hindu - the avatars and lesser spirits inhabit the cow thereby making it a sacred animal.

It is clear you guys are just different sides of the same coin ( An institution built on lies, deceit, fables, myths, superstition and useless dogma)
Whether you rob banks, defraud people, perform 419, yahoo yahoo, credit fraud etc you are a criminal and a criminal is a criminal. I can also say the same for religion. Whether you believe in dead men walking, arabs ascending with magical horses, spiritual cows, enlightened 2000 year old monks, chickens creating the world etc you are delusional.

I hope you get that

SmartyPants:
Thanks for your input on this thread.

1. Islam acknowledges the characters but changes the stories and the names. Most importantly, they do not attribute these stories to the Bible or to the Torah, instead claiming that Mohammed received it all from an angel. That is not acknowledging Judaism.

This is important because true religion must be shown to have existed from the first day God made man. It could not have been discovered at some point along the way.

Jesus did not come to found a new religion, He came in continuance of a relationship with God that commence from creation and continues to this day.

2. Understand this, we can have subjective definitions of perfect, but let us look at what each respective religion says about it's major proponent:

Christianity: Jesus never sinned
Buddhism: Buddha was unenlightened and went in search of enlightenment at the age of 29. Can an unenlighted person (one who walks in the dark), be perfect?
Islam: Mohammed was not sure whether he was going to heaven at the point of death.

3. Like i said, all religions believe in things that the atheist would not accept. What is wrong with worshiping cows, from a religious person's point of view, is the fact that we should logically, only worship beings superior to us. If we are more intelligent than cows despite the belief that intelligent spirits are in them, then they cannot be worthy or worship.

You allege dishonesty, and I am baffled by such an allegation. But I thank you for taking the time to respond to my essay.

1. I can also say christianity changes the names. The names in the Quran are the arabic variant and they are much closer to the jewish /hebrew version. Islam didnt change the names and the stories, if you think so then show me proof of the fact that Islam changed the names of OT characters. While you are searching, pls tell me why you dont call Jesus Yahshua, why you dont call David Daud and Solomon Shelomo because i am positive that the King James Bible or even the NKJV uses the english names does it mean they changed the names? Why doesnt the NKJV use the original hebrew names

Also if you say true religion must have been shown to have existed from creation, who told you that the Judaism creation story is the authentic one. This is what i have been telling you, you think the world revolves around Judaism and other creation stories and religions are useless. Why dont you consider the greek creation story that talks about Zeus and the gods and the creation of man? I also asked you why you conveniently ignore Obatala's creation story and even Amadioha's creation story. Every tribe that has existed has had creation stories so please stop using that of the ancient hebrews as the yardstick for truth, why not use the chinese story or the Japanese story or the Igbo or yoruba story why that of Judaism? Its just because thats the only one you know and are exposed to. Thats the thing about religion, for it to thrive in your mind there must be a sufficient amount of cultural ignorance and exposure.

2. You just mentioned Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad. Please are those the only 3 characters of religion?
What of Mithra? read about Mithra and tell me where sin existed in him
What of Lord Krishna? Read about it in the vedas and tell me where sin reigned in him. But am sure you never will because you already fear it as demonic. Your mind is only comfortable with that which is familiar to you. There are over 50 religious progenitors that claimed to be gods and also were seen as perfect. Please stop using 3 characters as your standard.

3. The same thing wrong with worshipping cows is the also wrong in believing in a human blood sacrifice. If you want to use logic pls answer these questions

- Is it logical to believe that blood of humans make people perfect
- Is it logical to believe in a talking snake or a talking donkey
- Is it logical to believe in manna falling from heaven

You are failing to see that all religions are illogical. Pls dont excuse your darling christianity. Just like other religions, christianity is built on lies, fables, mythology, fairy tales, superstition etc and is sustained by coercion, childhood indoctrination, lies, conquest, politics, obsfucation of other world views. Like all other religions, christianity is a terrible mess

SmartyPants:
These are basic things you have to know if you want to enter the debate on religion. Having to explain this wastes my time and takes us further away from the central argument.

1. Islam takes from Judaism but does not acknowledge this, and does not acknowledge it as being true. Christianity is only separated from Judaism by the Jews who do not accept Christ. Otherwise, biblically Christianity traces its roots right through what is called Judaism. Note that these terms originated with men.

If you are still having trouble conceptualizing this, then forget i said Judaism. Christianity traces the relationship with between God and man right through the days of the Law. If do not know what the Law is, then look it up on google.

The Jewish holy book, the Tora, is contained in the Bible. They accept part of what we believe, but reject the major part which is from where Christ came. That is the difference.

2. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

3. a. I hope you understand what i meant when i said we are using a process of elimination? Buddhism has been eliminated at point 2 where i noted the main proponent must have been perfect. Please keep up and stop forcing me to go back to things i have already covered, which should be easily understood.

b. This is painful. I am literally in pain over the fact that i have to reply this. You mean you don't understand the difference between believing that a donkey spoke and worshiping cows? Every religion believes in what non-believing people would call impossible or miracles. I am at a total loss as to how to your mind that is comparable to actually worshiping cows.

If i knew you would be this dishonest i wont have wasted my time with you. I am showing you that your religion is not unique and you are twisting and turning and going round in circles. This is the last time i am facing this points if you like twist and turn it later, but its clear you already have what you believe and you just want to simply and dishonestly twist the facts into your funnel of belief.

1. Islam acknowledges Judaism as much as christianity does so stop saying what you dont know. Islam acknowledges all the characters of the OT, Joseph(yusuf), David(Daud), Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Esther, Moses(Musa), Jacob, Abraham. They all acknowledge all the stories of the OT so what makes it different, they also accept the judaism creation story. Islam and chrisitianity are not the only religions that trace back to creation. There are over a hundred others that start with the creation story. Buddhism has its own, Hinduism has its own. Why are you narrowing it down to look as if Judaism is the only religion that has a creation story. Even Ifa has a creation story and talks about the relationship of man and God from creation. Because christianity uses the OT you now make it look as if the OT is the only existing creation story or cosmological story.

2. Buddhism cant be eliminated. If it is eliminated then chrisitianity must be eliminated. Your book claims Jesus was perfect but he clearly contradicts that in the gospels, he shows rage, calls people fools and vipers . There is nothing perfect about that. Nothing in the buddhist literature claims that Siddartha Gautama(Buddha) was imperfect at anytime so stop twisting facts. Muslims claim their prophet was perfect too. You cant just eliminate buddhism like that bro. Thats very dishonest.

3. Please whats bad in worshipping a cow? Am sure you would say its because thats absurd. Compare the absurdity of that to the absurdity of a talking snake, talking donkey, dead men rising. There are uncountable stories in the bible that are just plain absurd. So sorry mr.christian, you and your hindu brothers are the same in my eye. They believe absurd things just like you believe.

For the last time, if you honestly believe christianity meets those 4 pathetic standards that you created then you are being very unchristlike and dishonest

SmartyPants:
1. Every religion has a story. But in that story there has to be a point where God hands the religion to man. For Islam that point starts with Mohammed, even though they have a narration of creation. Which by the way is obviously taken from the Bible.

2. Whether you trust it or not, its a differentiator. Remember, this part of my argument is directed to those who believe.

3. No Islam claims we are all sons of God only in the sense of us being His creation. Christianity offers sonship in the sense of being actually of the nature of God. I also said in the original essay that religious beliefs that are unique must also be logical in the sense of why those beliefs serve a purple. Hinduism fails this test since it believes cows are to be worshipped. Why?

4. You call it propaganda but you cannot prove that.

1. Islams narration is taken from Judaism, Christianity's own is taken from Judaism. Doesnt that prove that Judaism is the one true religion. Christianity started 2000 years ago. It can be traced, thats when your so called religion was handed down to you guys. What are you even saying?

2. Belief means nothing in the presence of superior facts. For those who believe in the buddha am sure their facts are always true for them so please never argue with them.

3. Buddhism offers being one with God and achieving the state of God. What could beat that? sorry mister but your offer isnt the best. Hinduism
believes spirits inhabit cows and worship those spirits. Christianity believes in a talking donkey and snake.

SmartyPants:
1. Wrong... i never said Christianity was the oldest religion...I said it traces the relationship of man with God right back to the first created beings. You have to read my words carefully sir. Christianity is not the only religion that does this, but we are using a process of elimination here, so this step simply rules out those that cannot account for the time between creation and the inception of their religion. This includes Islam.

2. A perfect example refers to one who never ever sinned or did wrong. Buddha was already 29 years of age before he went on his search for enlightenment. That he required enlightenment rules him out as a perfect example. Jesus was born God right from birth, and never sinned. This makes Him the only perfect example.

3. I never said a set of rules is not typical of the true religion. I said true religion must go beyond a set of rules in terms of its purpose. Most religions offer a set of rules, however Christianity offers (i) sonship of God (ii) a direct access route to God through Jesus. You may not believe, but these are things that make Christianity different. And that is the point.

4. Persecution is one thing, but i am talking of being at the point where you willingly sacrifice your life in order to spread this message. Now note, i am not talking of the persecution in modern times, i am talking of the persecution that those who met Jesus suffered. If they actually met or knew Jesus, and were willing to suffer and die, then they must have been convinced by what they saw and heard firsthand.

So like i said, using the process of elimination, you might find some religions that can lay claim to some of the points, but none that can match up to all four points.

1. Hinduism traces its beginning to the act of creation by Brahman, islam also traces its beginning to the act of creation. I dont know any religion that doesnt do that, even Ifa religion traces its beginning to when Obatala was thrown down. So try something else, every religion traces its beginning to the act of creation of which it claims its God started.

2. This claim of never sinning doesnt make any sense. They are just religious claims, many religions claim their progenitors were spotless but that is just baseless propaganda. Why should i trust your story over theirs.

3. Islam offers sonship of god and direct access to god. Buddhism offers attaining the state of God(whats better than that). All religions offer sonship of god. SO nothing unique about christianity

4. Guy, many religious people were persecuted for their beliefs. For those who really met Jesus( there is no proof of what they faced), you have pure christian overbloated propaganda on persecution.

SmartyPants:
There you go:

Let me answer your claims

1. Christianity is not the oldest religion. Hinduism is the religion that its beginning cant be traced. So i guess based on that logic, Hinduism is the only truth in the world

2.Buddha was a perfect example who was shown not to have sinned. Muhammad was portrayed as being very noble. Even your Jesus was shown as perfect. But i will not fall into the trap of believing what has been said by the so called propaganda books called holy books. Any one could start a religion and write a fairy tale showing its central character to be perfect. So this method is very flawed. But even if we are to use it, Jesus doesnt still cut it, there were nicer characters throughout history.

3. You talk about a set of rules. But you have rules in christianity e.g You pray most times with your eyes closed, you go to church on sunday, you celebrate easter, christmas and pay offerings. If you claim christianity is the only spiritual religion then sorry to burst your bubble, Islam has its mystical branch, Buddhism and Hinduism are more spiritual. Buddhism is the least rigid, least regimented and most spiritually inclined religion. SO christianity doesnt cut it.

4.Mormons have been persecuted, jews have also been persecuted. Jews have been persecuted throughout the christian era and they never failed to denounce Jesus. Even muslims have been persecuted in the orient and they still hold steadfast to their religion

@OP

Please can you state what makes christianity the more logical religion than islam?

And also explain why i shouldnt see the uncausable causer as Allah who sent his last prophet Muhammad.

Thanks

adadike281:
u are an idiot and a stupid one at that. if I don't know, why not explain. why d insult? that corpse is even better than u. ewi!

Read the thread

PenisCaP:
I kno but u should av been easier her bro.
Na women dem no get heart

You are right, let me apologize to her

@Adadike, I am sorry for my outburst, am sure you will come back and read it. Forgive my utterance

PenisCaP:
Thats way too harsh!!..
Is dat how to correct some1?

Some things just aggravate someone. Chris Angel has performed more miraculous things that he later showed how he achieved it. Then just this petty hoax and an educated person will act as if this is undeniable proof.

adadike281:
waiting for atheists and scientists to come and explain. they claim to know better.

You are a compound fool. SO you dont know how a body can be preserved for thousands of years.

Your education was a total waste

igbodefender:
Biafra should mean joy, not future suffering and humiliation. Those shouting referendum for South East, ask them to tell you how they plan to get you new jobs in the new country, or would you immediately become a jobless refugee?

If you don't want all that, then join the clamour for restructuring. Nnamdi Kanu has a big role to play in any restructuring negotiations. At least everyone has seen how influential he is. Everyone knows if he is not satisfied, he can renew call for independent Biafra, so they would take him seriously. He should use hid leverage to negotiate for restructuring not separatism.

My brother help me tell them oh. I have been asking my igbo brothers what the plan is for Biafra ( economically, socially, politically) and none can give a tangible answer.

If violence erupts in the north, and SE follows then Nigeria might be heading to a precipice that we wont recover from. The igbos have no plan for this sort of thing

Joagbaje:
Sure didn't you hear about the Ebola case I ministered to in tanzania ? And he got gloriously healed .I think there was a thread on in . Kindly search.

Guy you were discredited in the HIV case in bayelsa, do you want to start with another ebola case?

Please lets not go down that line

OtemAtum:
That was how I help one of them get a part time job. She soon left it because she saw in her dream that her employer wanted to use her for money ritual. How won't she dream such useless dream when she literally attends vigil five times a week? And guess what they pray about in their vigils--witches, wizards, enemies from village, bla, bla, bla.

Hahahahaha

I don laugh scatter

Say her employer wan use am for money ritual, there is nothing you wont hear

Even the lazy business men that even claim that the shop owners are caging their destinies.

Such folly is so baffling.

In their deluded minds, everything is a witch or wizard. Snake, cockroach, bird, owl, lizard even ants. Please how do this people even enjoy nature? Some of them even see trees as demonic, even dogs and cats( the symbol of their greatest fears)

I really pity this people. Someone will have an innocent flat tyre and suddenly start thinking its part of one grand diabolic conspiracy. This is the reason why africa remains backward

OtemAtum:
People around me call me names because I always make fun of their god and when they are praying and I am there, I start saying 'Eyin iya mi osoronga, apani ma waku, olokiki oru...' (incantation). They fear me and call me 'abami' each time I do that. They thought I'm a wizard
I have warned them that they shouldn't fear when they start seeing me in their dreams as a wizard, because I know very soon, their brains will start making such dreams for them about me and they'll be scared eeh.

Otem the great.

I dey believe you for this forum. Chase them christards with their stupidity. I didnt know you were yoruba, i thought you were Niger deltan.

Let the delusional people dream about you, let their gullible minds create a bogeyman for them. They prefer delusion to reality so thats what they will get.

KingEbukasBlog:
lol

Where is the thief now ? Naijadeyhia, Damogul, 4evergod, winner01

The thief has run away

bennyann:
You people sha...

The fact you didn't ascribe it to God or a god doesn't mean it isn't a miracle.

What you did that made it start working, wasn't it the same thing you did over and over and over again?....

You couldn't even tell the problem, you still can't tell if it's what you tried that made it work.

As long as you tried the same thing repeatedly and it never worked till you tried it again when your hope has almost vanished before it worked, then It's a miracle my brother.

All of una no understand English again.

Next time I will make sure you pay the fine

Benny Benny
Long Time no hear

So why did i experience the miracle? who did i pray to?

If i prayed to my wheelspanner? i would have received the same result

It appeared really miraculous but in reality it was logical. My electrician explained it to me this morning as i got to work. I was very lucky if not i would have paid a fine for wrong parking but no deity stepped down to do anything. Life just happened

@OP,

My own experience was this morning. I was driving to work and my car clock just stopped. This was around berger, i now foolishly moved to the side and parked and put off my engine. Oboy na there the car stop oh.

Tried and tried to no avail, just beside me was a sign saying "no parking, park and pay fine of 90,000" with a towing sign on it.

I felt so stranded, i called 2 mechanics and one rewire, they all couldnt come. I hit the battery head over and over, no avail. The battery wasnt coming up and i tried to hit the battery head like anyone would, nothing came up. I hit the kickstarter and nothing happened.

I knew lastma could come any moment and i would have to start explaining why my car spoilt in the wrong place. I just went and hit the battery head again and suddenly the car started. I just jejely closed bonnet and sped off.

If i was still religious, i would have claimed that the Lord sent an angel who magically started the car. It fit the stereotype of a standard miracle

felixomor:
He doesn't evrn know Wikipedia again



Hush it
You have never been to any
So i dont see how your opinion of one should matter



Sorry
I dont have to be his head to know what he believes
Talk about illiteracy, hian



I thought u earlier insinuated that there was none
And that it is "fact"?
Story to story
Mumudeen


Sorry are you the judge that convicted me or 4everGod?
Oh, i forgot the illiteracy



Hehehehe
Empty talk
Typical Nairaland atheist behavior after exposure.

Receive sense in Jesus name.
Amen

I have never been to a reputable medical conference because i am not a doctor, never claimed to be one, never will be one.

But you that claimed as a doctor that evolution is just a theory(vernacular theory), you are a disgrace. Thats the equivalent of an engineer claiming that feasibility studies before building are just for fancy.

I dont have to convict 4evergod. If your mentor 4evergod isnt a useless 2 timing thief, let him come out with any of his monikers( naijadeyhia, damogul,bbfever). He is running because the moment he comes out, he will be traced to wherever he is hiding. As your holey babble says, the guilty run when no one chases them

Born2Freak:
Please keep playing the fool

Leave that animal.

Like his friend 4evergod that is nowhere to be found he will soon be exposed for being the liar that he is.

A man that can lie about being a medical doctor can also steal. The guy is a fraud and a quack and most importantly he is so ironically unchristlike in his utterances and behavior.

felixomor:
Mumudeen
Wikipedia is edited by people like you and even 6 year old kids do it
Only a fool uses Wikipedia to argue with a medic




Did any part of my comment try to redefine a theory?
You see WHY YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO PRIMARY SCHOOL?




Keep quiet mumudeen
IF YOU READ what even other atheists have written here before you came
You will see how theu even acknowledged the explanations

Oh sorry,
I forgot you are a glorified ILLITERATE


"Accepted" by IDiots like you
Even the Wikipedia that the quack doctors in your village use has an almost endless list of scientists and scientific articles that disprove evolution

Keep being an IDIYORT
Dont repent of ignorance
You will soon pay the price



Mumudeen,
I dont have to
Even the Wikipedia that your family doctor uses
Already tells us
But your illiteracy and ignorance sticks you to it




Oh Good
To know the name of the school the doctors in your village graduate from
Great



Stop the projection
because the doctors in your village are quack, doesnt mean I am


Shalom

I dont have time for all your tirades. You said evolution is just a theory right?

Let me ask you a question, is evolutionary theory a scientific theory or not?

If you say no then it shows you are definitely living in the past
If you say yes then how can a scientific theory not be seen as a body of facts by a man of science and medicine.

felixomor:
Prove what to u?
Even the "very intelligent" Richard Dawkins knows evolution is not proven.

But hey, keep fooling thyself.
Even your wikipedia knows this
It has list of scientists who disprove it.

Even what wikipedia?

You medical doctor and scientist go to a reputable medical conference and call evolution just a theory and see the response you will get.

Richard Dawkins that is an ardent supporter of evolution now knows that it isnt true. Are you in his head?

Which reputable biologist disproves evolution in this 2017? if you can show me 1, i will show you at least 100.

You are a fraud and thief just like your friend 4evergod who claimed to be a business mogul, where is the frauds moniker now? he is in hiding

You are a liar and i know you are not a doctor. Thief