₦airaland Forum

golpen: @logicbwoy

I've not gotten to the roots of why it exists, but I think it's a matter of choice. You may request your xtian or atheist section be made too, there's no problem about that.

But the mere fact that it exists should have made it so easy to do away with the intolerance by not visiting here again. I'll take the section and the mods to be intolerant, only if and when every non-muslim post made here, relevant or irrelevant is deleted with immediate effect.

Further more, non-muslims may do away with the lashes of intolerance on their bomboms. Keep clear!

Your comment didn't make any sense. You were making sense before......were u coached? Lol

@ Golpen

First of all, this section shouldn't exist at all. The veru fact that it exist is a sign of intolerance. Even my british muslim friends shake their heads in disgust when I tell them that on the biggest Nigerian site, the muslims segregate themselves on their own section while other religions work it out in one section.

Furthermore, non muslins have given the verdict on your mod....the ayatollah

golpen: I think you have been a regular visitor of this section and most likely, you and your non-muslim folks are in the best position to answer those questions. Muslims here are just fine, and have not complained at anytime to anyone.

People just like me have decided to keep mute because any of the yes or no answer given to those questions, will definitely spring up a basis of argument which we might not be up for.

Now I think we should add some more questions, because this shouldn't be only about the mods and the muslims here;

1. Haven't the some non-muslims been antagonistic with their comments and opinions.

2. Have they contributed to the section like someone who deserves to be tolerated?

Just let's treat this too...no arguments.

I am not a regular visitor here. A visitor is treated with respect.

I am a regular pest. That is what your mods and some of your members treat me like.

You ask about contributions....did you know that one of my write ups here on islam made it to an online newspaper?


I am one of the few non-muslims that understand islam and yet, I am treated like vermin. How much then a non muslim that deosnt understand?

Yes, some non muslims have been disrepectful. However, muslims can insult not muslims here and get away with it. Mislims are given special priviledge. I will never forget when vedaxcool derailed my thread and I was banned by maclatunji for reporting....

This section is intolerant

You have gotten ur answer....almost a day and no reply.


This section.....smh

What about dogs in islam?

What about halal slaughter? Isn't slicing the neck of cattke one of the worst wats to slowly die?

tbaba1234: Dude, I saw all those examples before making my statement.

What you have are pseudo- Islamic states, who implement and mix Islam with other unislamic things.

The first criteria for an Islamic state is that all muslim living within its confines are citizens with full citizen rights. In Islam, Nationality or tribalism does not matter except as a means of identification or heritage.

Jubair ibn Mut’im reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “He is not one of us who calls to tribalism. He is not one of us who fights for the sake of tribalism. He is not one of us who dies following the way of tribalism.”

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 5102

The prophet Muhammad last sermon:

'All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. ( Musnad Ahmad)

Surah Al-Hujurat 49:13 -O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female,and made you into nations and tribes,that you may know one another.Verily,the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. one of the Muttaquin)

Throughout the history of Islam, race, tribe and nation were not issues. As long as you are muslim from anywhere, you have citizen rights in the Islamic state.

We had not had an Islamic State for at about a century. We have muslim majority countries.

Read this thread, it will help you gain a better understanding:

https://www.nairaland.com/1068269/islamic-civilisation-islamic-law-reforming

Let's focus on the issue- capitalism; is there any islamic replacement for it?



But I have one correction....you lied that tribes and nationality didn't matter in the real islamic governments/economies of the past.

That is a lie. Why? One word. Ethopia. Were ethopia and arabia ever one?

Sissie: We do not have an Islamic state, what we have are States who practice a part of the Islamic system, before a state can be called an Islamic state it needs to fulfill some criteria, Islam has its own political, social, economic, judicial system.

Don't derail the thread. Tbaba has addressed the issue and also, I have conceeded the point even before you posted..

The issue here is capitalism and islam

Uyi Iredia: Thanks for the videos. Hopefully I will watch them. And as a footnote in this discussion I leave the following quote:

"I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic. And yet I am not so opposed to capitalism that I have failed to see its relative merits. It started out with a noble and high
motive, viz., to block the trade monopolies of nobles, but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes."
- Martin Luther King Jnr.

PS: And if I'm to take the success model on which the 'Islamocracies' are based on as true, I'd say humanity is in trouble and Islamic banking is no better than its capitalist counterpart, the same for socialism. The success of the UAE is supposedly based on considerable amounts of poorly treated migrant workers from okaces like India and Pakistan, Africa isn't to be left out. This to me shows a 'matrix-like' flaw in humanity and by inclusion economic systems: it's one of character, it's the enemy of slack, it's similar to concept of sin IMO.

Explain how I am to take this your comment seriously?

first you quote MLK as if he is an economist. Most successful economies are capitalist more than socialist. Capitalism mixed with a rise of socialism through govt regulation is the war forward; a mixed economy. MLK was wrong.


Capitalism is not perfect. No system is perfect. Capitalism is just the best system so far

tbaba1234: What makes the UAE an 'islamocracy'. There is no Islamic state in the world today. No one meets the basic principle of an islamic state.

We should talk more about the principles of an Islamic economy and it's historical examples of success. Maybe its possible application in a modern world.

The fact that there is no islamic state in the world is a failure of Islam in itself. Muslim leaders in various Muslim countries can not apply laws written down for them at their convenience from Allah through the prophet.

There exists no historical example if an Islamic economic model being mire successful than known economic models of the time. Please tell me when in history has Islamic trade or economics dominated the world

Yes, there is discrimination agaisnt islam or muslims. No doubt about that. It sgould be condenmed and tackled. There are men who physically attack hijabi women. There are people who will not even speak to a muslim in the uk. I have first hand experience of this.


Now, here is the flip side of the coin. Islam too can be discriminatory. Look at the popular islamic countries and see how they treat the christian and pagan minorities. They have policies that affect the freedom of non muslims.


Atheism is not a religion but it faces a lot of religious discrimination. Ask any atheist in an islamic society. The discrimination is so open and accepted.


Some might even go as far as saying that islam is the most intolerant religion. I do not hold this view but I can understand why some make this grandiose claim that will be hard to prove. They see terrorism as a part of islam which is wrong.

Discrimination is bad, no matter who it happens to; muslim or not muslim.

The whole point of my comment is to see discrimination from both sides.

Sissie: Your right, they manipulate the price of oil, gold, control the international monetary organizations, make the 3rd world indebted to them.

Does this apply to all capitalist countries in the West? Who are "they"

Sissie: @logicbwoy it's obvious you know little about the Islamic economic system, there's been so much talk about Islamic finance system due to the recent Islamic banking system in Nigeria and the Islamic finance system being adopted by the west I.e the bond, investment, interest free banking. But that doesn't mean Muslims do not know the economic model, I do agree many Muslims don't know much about the Islamic economic system but then many Muslims don't know much about Islamic judicial system either.

Capitalism has been good to an extent but it has its cons, that it's beginning to fail and theirs the need for the west to adopt a better managed economic system

how then do you compare the capitalist system to the Islamic system and say it has performed better, on what comparison was this based?

You are just repeating like a broken record....move on...you stramanned out...

snubish: there was such a time in the Muslim world when those delegated to distribute the zakah found no one to accept it.

Congratulations to the current western economies living a 'first class ticket' in the journey of life lifestyle while most of the rest of the world stay impoverished and wonder why God has been partial to a certain group of people. Those who were feudal lords over a largely poor populace living in darkness and ignorance in the middle ages now have no equals in wealth.
First things first; gain military might, and then establish puppet institutions of control over the whole world, do not forget to include those financial institutions that will control the global economy using complex financial tools, manipulating the gold standard and making your own currency the medium of international trade, baiting poor countries with loans to keep them indebted till eternity. And don't forget to place harsh economic sanctions on those that challenge the status quo.
We seek refuge in you our Lord. You alone we worship, You alone we ask for help.

1) The bold is as false as Micheal Jackson's white skin.....there is no verifiable historical proof for that comment in bold.That is a "feel good" Islamic myth. Allow me to take it with a grain of salt.


2) The rest of your comments lump the all west/capitalist countries into stereotypes of the UK and USA.....tell me, is Sweden or Norway dropping bombs in Afghanistan or oppressing people to make money?


3) Lets even go to the East- Japan which is capitalist and Singapore which is "state capitalist"....do they fit in the nonsense stereotype that fills your comment?

sofitinted: oga sir,y d hatred?av noticed u reply mostly islam post wit minor intentn,calm down

vedaxcool:

https://cdn.fulltraffic.net/images/blog/facebook-1billion-users.jpg

Please where did you see hatred in my comment? hy the lies? Muslims like these two are dangerous. You want to claim hatred and later call me an islamophobe abi?

Where did you see hatred in my comment below;

Logicbwoy: First of all, when CNN criticizes islam or an islamic country, it is dubbed as "Western media", "biased islamophobic media", "Jewish controlled media"......etc. Now that it is praising islam (albeit with falsehoods) you post it here like some piece of good news to be shared......smh



8. Muhammed (PBUH) did not invent the toothbrush neither was he the earliest to use a chewing stick.

4. Universities? Seriously? The first "proper" university would be the University at Bologna. If we want to stretch it, your muslim universities would have to give way to Plato

7. Music? Ironic how some schools of islam find music to be haraam. Arans ha their instruments just as Europeans had their own musical instruments. But seriously, the way muslims like to compare themselves with Europe is alarming. Asians and Africans had their own music too!! Tbaba, it is shameful that you an African, couldnt see the ethnocentrism in this....






Tbaba, you are smarter than this.

Anyhoo, my comment will be a waste because it is the truth and we know that some pained by the truth will run to Maclatunji to hide the truth

Sissie: 1) Islamic finance has never built economies like how capitalism has
2) Capitalism has created more jobs and has witnessed growth in companies and start ups than any economic system
3) Capitalists do not claim that capitalism is perfect but then islamic finance is based on perfect principles from the Quran and yet, it is not half as successful as capitalism

the above is what you wrote!!!

And now you wrote

"1) I neverr equated capitalism to finance. Why did you have to lie and forward that strawman?
If you noticed, the topic is on the financial crisis of capitalist economies in the west. It was actually your muslim pals that were using the finance part to attack capitalism. I had to explain the finance"


Lol, dude I didn't study economics at secondary level, I am an economist, I have studied economic systems.

If you want to talk about finance system, restrict it to that, and we would discuss the both finance system.
But capitalism as a whole is more than just the finance system.

What is this one talking?


The islamic economic model has no name that i am aware of and even your fellow muslims refer to it as islamic finance.

Of course finance is only a part of any economic model......
But how can i describe something withoutr using the term that other muslims use?


Bravo....u have succeeded in arguing an irrelevant point. Even if i was wrong and i equated finance to an economic model, does that somehow change the following facts that:

-capitalism has been the best economic model we have had so far and that it as performed better than any islamic model?

-muslims....some of them ignorantly mock capitalism with the financial meltrdown

Sissie: Islamic finance system, is more successful than the conventional finance system, the west have started realizing this, and are buying more into it.

Economic systems change, and the capitalist system as we know it is changing already, soon the Islamic system will be practiced, it may not be called the "Islamic economic system" but the principles/laws guiding it will be the same as that of the Islamic system, I already see some western countries adopting part of it.

Nonsense of the highest order. The only reason that western countries adopt islamic finance is to attract middle eastern investors who are aroused by anything islamic. Funny enough, manY of your rich Arabs have millions in swiss and haram accounts in the west. They know that islamic finance cant give them returns they need

Sissie: Lol, for you to say capitalism and Islam don't mix, it means you know little about one or both.

1. You don't need to be a Muslim, to mock capitalism, the proponents of socialism, communism I . Karl max are not all Muslims.

Where you showed your ignorance is assuming capitalism=finance.

Capitalism is the economic system as a whole, which finance is only a part of.

All economic system have their pros/cons.
And that's the reason why we don't have a pure capitalist system, what we have is mixed economic system, with some countries having a higher part capitalism.

The Islamic economic system which the Islamic finance is a part of, if you know the system you would know it's a combination of both, with laws guiding it, and that's where non-interest banking/business, profit-loss sharing business/banking system, giving people the full worth of what they paid for, taxation, not exploiting the labour force, etc. it's all part of.


So you saying Islamic finance this, Islamic finance that you are talking about its just a part of it.

You are arguing dubiously and ignorantly

1) I neverr equated capitalism to finance. Why did you have to lie and forward that strawman?
If you noticed, the topic is on the financial crisis of capitalist economies in the west. It was actually your muslim pals that were using the finance part to attack capitalism. I had to explain the finance


2) I did not say that only muslims have problems with capittalism. I amb complaining about muslims who bash the west with capitalism out of ignorance. Karl marx argued against capitalism with logic. He saw the problems of inequality and commodity fetishism in the capitalist model. HOwever, despite his criticism he failed to come up with a better economic system. How many marxist economists do u know today?

3) Islam and capitalism do not mix. Islamic finance is an example of why. No interest, no shares (investing in shares is gambling you take a risk on the value of the share- it either goes up or down...capital gains or loss). What is capitalism today without shares and interest? Do publicly traded shares between companies and individuals make sense in a socialist economy?

4) I clearly stated that capitalism is not perfect. You arguing that every economic model has pros and cons, just shows that you have comprehension problems or u just like to argue against strawmen


5) Telling me about mixed economies is just showing off what u learnt in secondary school economics. We all know that.


In summary, u have argued two strawmen and then made the false claim rthat islam and capitalism mix. A claim dat even ur fellow muslim clerics denounce.

Capitalism and islam dont mix like oil and water.

Ever since the 2007 financial crisis, it has been common to hear muslims mock and deride the the economic system of the West- Capitalism

We hear comments like

-"if only they have followed divine economic system of islamic finance"
-"the kuffar has been blinded by their greed"
-"haha look at how their system failed and muslim nations such as Saudi/UAE are doing well...AllahuAkbar"


Even here on nairaland, I debated with Maclatunji and Tbaba who carried the same sentiment that the West would have been better off with Islamic finance.


The problem here is that of ignorance of economics and finance. As someone who studied both, I will tell you that it is a fact that every capitalist system goes through a cycle of boom and bust....the problem is that one can not predict how bad the bust (failure/downfall) will go.


============================(Skip financial lesson)
Why is that so? First and foremost, money has no real value- it only has an agreed value negotiated between govt as a legal tender and the markets. The Market side is where it becomes interesting....the value of money is tied to its supply and the dynamics of goods traded in that same currency. When such goods lose their value, money loses it's value later but not immediately. Anything that has no real value will can fluctuate up and down. --- Just like a cycle of boom and bust

While this is as simple as I can explain, I will go further to explain it in terms of the financial crisis that happened. Shares/stocks like money have no real value....they are dependent on what the companies and market say they are. Now, should a company's experience a loss- the loss is not always immediately reflected in the valuation of its shares on the market because the market might not have the up to date inside information on the company. Should a company hide this loss for a long time- the market and investors will face a shock later when the shares drop.....This is what the bank did- they hid toxic assets (mortgages people cant pay) to bolster their financial statements until it became a shock in the market. This can be prevented with solid financial laws but thanks to Bush, we got deregulation...
====================================



You can skip the financial lesson and get to the part where muslims who mock capitalism are mocking their ignorance.

1) Islamic finance has never built economies like how capitalism has
2) Capitalism has created more jobs and has witnessed growth in companies and start ups than any economic system
3) Capitalists do not claim that capitalism is perfect but then islamic finance is based on perfect principles from the Quran and yet, it is not half as successful as capitalism


And to preemptively block the "Islamic Golden Age" argument, there has never been a time where Arabs or muslims were the financial capital of the world. They might have had scientific and technological supremacy once but never financial.



So, before a muslim mocks capitalism or the financial crisis, one should look at his islamic finance and see whether it has done any better.....

Even with the financial crisis, the western economies still remain better on many criteria than ANY ISLAMIC country's economy

vedaxcool: Interesting op, simple answers to ponder upon.

What? No smileys? No attacks?

I'm surprised

tbaba1234:

Up till today, Arabic words/culture are still in the university system.

Alumni comes from the word Alim (which means a knowledgeable one).

Even the design of the graduation thobe is from the muslims....

The roots are still there.

We are talking of the things that laid the foundation for the modern world not the finished products.

No need to get worked up over this. Every civilisation has made some contribution to the modern world.

Note how you didt even attend to the two other points i raised.

tbaba1234:

Mr Logic boy, your ignorance is disgraceful sometimes.

Up till today, Arabic words/culture are still in the university system.

Alumni comes from the word Alim (which means a knowledgeable one).

Even the graduation thobe is from the muslims....

We are talking of the things that laid the foundation for the modern world not the finished products.

No need to get worked up over this. Every civilisation has made some contribution to the modern world.

Wow...is this some kind of reuttal? Even by your own comment, University was not an islamic invention....you just gathered some popular islamic myths

A Skeptic said “What if you are wrong?”
I said “What if I am right?”


A skeptic replied "you have always assumed that islam is right, just try the opposite for once"

An Atheist said "How is there a Creator?"
I said "How is there a Creation?"



An atheist replied "I dont remember agreeing with you that there is a creation"

tbaba1234: A Skeptic said “What if you are wrong?”

A Modernist said 'We should reform revelation to fit the times"
I said "We should reform the times to fit revelation"

[Source]
http://abdullahalandalusi.com/2011/05/14/hello-world/

I have told you to stop quoting Andalusi.

Does the bold even make sense? How can one reform times?

Ironically, muslims bend revelations to fit the times constantly. Isnt riba haraam? However, every muslim country engages in riba with their dealings with the west. Every muslim in the west engages in Riba directly or indirectly- as long as you have a bank account in a non-islamic bank....

An Evolutionist said “The universe created life by itself, without needing God”
I said “Did the universe create itself without needing God?”



Surely, an "evolutionist" wouldnt say that.

The muslim who wrote this has no clue what evolution is

First of all, when CNN criticizes islam or an islamic country, it is dubbed as "Western media", "biased islamophobic media", "Jewish controlled media"......etc. Now that it is praising islam (albeit with falsehoods) you post it here like some piece of good news to be shared......smh



8. Muhammed (PBUH) did not invent the toothbrush neither was he the earliest to use a chewing stick.

4. Universities? Seriously? The first "proper" university would be the University at Bologna. If we want to stretch it, your muslim universities would have to give way to Plato

7. Music? Ironic how some schools of islam find music to be haraam. Arans ha their instruments just as Europeans had their own musical instruments. But seriously, the way muslims like to compare themselves with Europe is alarming. Asians and Africans had their own music too!! Tbaba, it is shameful that you an African, couldnt see the ethnocentrism in this....






Tbaba, you are smarter than this.

Anyhoo, my comment will be a waste because it is the truth and we know that some pained by the truth will run to Maclatunji to hide the truth

babylolaroy: why wont i concede?.i wont fight for Allah. HE will do that for HIMSELF. its not only abortion dat the Quran is silent about. isnt it silent on HOW to say salat?..HOW to pay zakat ? etc. so forget dat yu av a point

as per Allah doesnt live in mecca..yup. he lives everywhere buh we wont face everywhere because
1...Allah to whom we pray has said to where He wants us to face...
2....Allah wants our things to be unified. such that we are called one 'ummah'..so that we will be different from people of other religions who obviously arent an ummah!!!

Abeg shutup.....ummah this....ummah that

Where is your ummah today? Oppressed and belittled by the west, represented with the most backward nations for womenn dependent on western technology.


God has left the ummah. The ummah is ruled by the white western secular man. You dont believe me? Take a look at the technology that muslim countries use for their oil......take a look at how muslim countries engage in riba with the financial dealings woth western companies......


The ummah aint special......sorry babe, port to the brighter side....i will bé there to hold ur hand to guide u thru common sense

ameenahz: Oh, i touched a nerve? Sorry o.

Yawn

ameenahz: To add to what you have written:
Qur'an 17 vs 31: Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. It is we who provides for them and for you. Killing them is indeed a grave sin.



Logicbwoi: it is obvious now that you are here simply for argument's sake. Because i still don't know how this discussion moved from hijab to criticism of Islam itself.

Lol.....someone is pained from hearing the truth. I wasnt talkingf to you and u promised to avoid all thiss but u are back. If you followed the discussion, i talkesd about the hijab and relates it to other criticisms of islam. It is not my fault that someone then took on the other criticisms.

My overall point was that hijab is a choice and not compulsory. Men too ahould have their hijab if it is compulsory.



As for the abortion thing, people dont abort for money issues only. Rich people abort too. That verse is notfor abortion but rather, it is for infanticide.


Pls respect yourself before u accuse me of anything again. Thanks

babylolaroy: principally,the Qur'an condemns
the killing of humans (except in the
case of defense or as capital
punishment), but it does not
explicitly mention abortion. This
leads Islamic theologians to take up
different viewpoints: while the
majority of early Islamic theologians
permitted abortion up to day 40 of
pregnancy or even up to day 120,
many countries today interpret these
precepts protecting unborn children
more conservatively. Although there
is no actual approval of abortion in
the world of Islam, there is no strict,
unanimous ban on it, either. Islam
has not given any precise directions
with regard to the issue of abortion.
Buh there is what we call 'Qiyaas' i.e analogical deduction. it will be logical to view an unborn child as a human , the abortion of which is killing
The Qur'an clearly disapproves of
killing other humans: “Take not life
which Allah has made
sacred” ( 6: 151; see also 4: 29 “If a
man kills a believer intentionally, his
recompense is Hell, to abide therein
(for ever)” ( 4: 93). Allah (SWT) went
even further, making unlawful
killing of a single individual human
being equal to mass murder of the
whole of mankind: "Because of that,
We ordained for the children of Israel
that if anyone killed a person not in
retaliation for murder or for
spreading mischief on earth, it would
be as if he killed all mankind. And
who saved a life, it would be as if he
saved all mankind." (Al-Maidah,
5:32 )
Also in suratu takwir chp 81: 8-9." and when the infant buried alive shall be questioned, for what sin was she killed?
Now you dont think a religion that detest murder this much would accept abortion with both hands. do you?..its for only those that can reflect to know that it is forbidden

lastly, the issue of we facing the qibla i.e mecca for salat. Av told you b4 buh i will say it ds last time that we face mecca because Allah wishes. Even if the qiblah is not mecca, wouldnt it be somewhere?..abi.we sha go face somewhere. whether mecca or ilorin or lagos, we go face one place. would oda towns den not talk about bias?
let Allah be the judge of why kaabah in mecca is the most suutable Qiblah

Allah doesnt live in mecca. Other religions dont face a particular place to pray. What happened to just praying?


Anyhoo, thannks for conceeding that I was right on the Quran being silent on abortion