₦airaland Forum

mtchew......troll ^


*unfollows*

wiegraf: You're not going to be hypocritical? Lb, you have no issues being a hypocrite, o believe that's already established, so don't try to pull some holier than thou cloak. And I didn't say you were looking for savors, I said you're trying to be liberal. Try to think before you post, open topics etc

Now, this isn't about freedom of expression primarily, how many times am I going to point out that only the Muslims, as far as major religions are concerned, get this sort of treatment? Do you see this issue being debated for joins? This is about their intolerance for the most part, it's what separates them from the test. For one, please explain why our peaceful Muslims are the only ones with their own section.

For these sheeple that are pleased grazing, there are also women in those societies robbed of their rights, atrociously. Child brides to a reduced legal stand in the eyes of the law. Some not even allowed to be out and about without a male relative. Not even allowed to drive.

The burkha is an advert for that culture, one that if allowed to succeed, will repress the rest of us sane folk. When they grow up, no one will have these sorts of issues with them, till then though this sort of treatment is well justified in order to protect freedom.

And that smell is likely your folly

@ bold
I didnt know that you were this silly.

wiegraf: Lb, in my opinion it's silly to encourage these folk. Just as it's silly to accept any nonsense theory like demon SMS simply because you want to appear open-minded. Being liberal does not equal turning a blind eye to intolerance

lol....I bash Islam 24/7, however I do it factually. I am not going to be hypocritical about freedom of expression in order to bash muslims.

No one should tell women what not to wear. If a woman chooses to wear iron pant, so be it. If a woman chooses to wear Burkha, so be it.


I am not trying to appease anyone.

ummsulaym: Sharia is the CODE and muslims(individually) are responsible for their interpretations, understanding, implemention and execution of the Sharia just as you other talkers/haters(e.g wiegraf) are responsible for their opinion (which doesn't matters anyway) concerning the Sharia... So stick to it(everyone entitled to his/her opinion)...

waiting to see how it ends with briton and the banning of burqa(the real issue)...

Britain is not going to ban the burkha. How many times do I have to tell you?

wiegraf: You're an eediot. Nothing more to add

Ohhh, I love the smell of butthurt

ummsulaym: am not surprise that you typed that, I expected someone and/or anyone to bring up an issue related to that as comments continue on this thread...

You don't know how sharia is applied... I don't support forcing burqa on anyone but enjoining (which you call force) hijab i.e proper islamic dress code for women in sharia abiding countries isn't barbaric or whatever people call it... They didn't ban 'western style' cuz a woman is allowed to wear any style whatsoever provided it's within the limit of women cover in sharia. It's better put 'western indecency' cuz that's what they don't tolerate and any region isn't suppose to tolerate it too..
Hey! Arresting,beating and execution of non-muslims, is that true? If at all yes, for NO justified reason? Killing of apostate is in accordance to their 'interpretation' of sharia regarding apostacy...
Am I defensive? NO, I'm not...
It's okay(what can I say) to think bad of muslims but people's thoughts should be locked up in them(after all, it doesn't matter), it shouldn't surface just to forge issues when none exist...

What is "western indecency"? As if there are no indecent people in the Middle East? Some atheists have been arrested, some beaten in muslim countries. Bangladesh and Pakistan....

Anyway, we are on the same page. Burkha should not be banned

ummsulaym: Ban! What could their reason be this time again? I think these western countries really need to stop hiding under the canopy of 'social responsibility or whatever' to deprive people of their freedom of choice... What happen to 'freedom' that the west claim to offer? Oh, I forgot this(burqa) is a muslim thing and restrictions has to come in... Freedom that in other words says ''freedom to non-muslims''? Why am I surprised anyways.
Have read through the comments above but if you remove religious sentiments from your hearts, you will realise that it's not fair to do that... Many times, Islam is accused of oppressing women by forcing them to use hijab/burqa but what do we call 'forcing women to take off burqa'? And what will muslims be called if they act against this(just asking though)?
@wiegraf, the world is almost at its(her) peak of 'no peace,' don't you think muslims leaving that country and non-muslims asked to leave muslims'(arab) countries only complicates the already complicated world?
@usermane, you really have to stop this and stick to whatever you believe. If everyone has to identify who he/she talks, sits or does whatever with, then I think everyone should also be able to be with anybody, see/talk to anyone without having to see unclad bodies and in that case, indecency MUST be 'banned' too but things arent that easy so they should let people be(especially the right doers).
@Op, U said u aren't for burqa but think people should be left entitled to their choices, I respect you for that...
Not as if my epistle is gonna reach the authorities incharge of the ban nor is it gonna make things different but feelings better 'aired'... Off here joor

The UK is just fed up with the hypocrisy and intolerance of many muslims. I think that anger is reflected in the polls. However, it is not going to be banned. I have seen political debate where most pundits/politcians have said that they wont ban it.

Here is the hypocrisy of muslims in the west and UK
-Crying and whining about France's banning of the burkha but silent about Saudi and sharia countries banning "western styled" dresses for women
-Silence about the other extreme- people who force burkha on women
-Claiming islamophobia or intolerance to muslims in the west but support the beating/arrest/execution of atheists or apaostates and other non-muslims in sharia countries.


Still, I believe that a woman should be free to wear the Burkha

wiegraf: What in the universe makes you think you are capable of telling me what a good argument is?

What are you smoking?

You are embarrassing yourself here with your shallow and non sequitur arguments.

wiegraf: Lb, it's quite the task for you, but try to limit your eediocy. It obviously isn't a crime, but they're trying to make it one, no? You talk as if what is a crime is objective, that's silly. We simply stick up for our values.

If you think there's no problem here then you shouldn't have any issues with yarima and those kids. You do know that if asked most of those kids are quite content being a ped.o's plaything, yes? You do know that they will quite willingly get married to uncle, yes? After all, god decreed it, therefore it's fine. So yarima really should be allowed to get his wives recognized legally, yes? He should be allowed to wear rings and whatnot, and extol on the virtues of child marriage, no? To present it as something positive, no?

Again, what is a crime in the west is robbing people of their rights. The burkha is a clear cut symbol of that, just as say some sort of marriage rings for pe.dos would be a symbol of that practice. Neither of these should be tolerated so long as we're sticking to what the west values.

To compound on that, there's their infamous intolerance. Consider NAZI, their shi.t isn't allowed in a lot of places just because they stand for heinous morals by the average western standards, it's mostly because they're terribly intolerant. If they get a chance they will act on said intolerance, like they did during hitler's years. If muslims get a chance they'll rob females of their rights, like they do in islamic societies.

It's not like they've not been given their chance to demonstrate maturity, they have and they have failed. Again, do you see anyone clamoring for the same for buddhists, sikhs, etc?

You do not condone nonsense from intolerants, simple. That is the west's value system at work there.

Now, try to use your head and be reasonable if you're going to reply

You know when someone is arguing nonsense- they bring irrelevant stuff to the argument.

-child marriage
-pe.dophilia

^^
These have nothing to do with the argument at hand.

The case is simple- a woman is free to wear what she wants to wear, given that she is not naked. Why is such a simple explanation of freedom of expression and freedom of religion so hard to understand?

Do I like the burkha? No
Do I like women in baggy pants? No
But like all articles of clothing, it is the woman's choice to make for herself.

The argument is so simple.


Thank goodness that the UK is not like france or saudi arabia where women are told what not to wear.

deols: @AbdH,

About the pic you posted about the prophet cursing people who deal with alcohol. Can you confirm whether that hadith is about the beverage or dealing with alcohol in all forms?

Because, for example, the spirit used in cleaning wound is alcohol. A more concentrated one for that matter. Would having a company that deals in its production or helping people clean their wounds or having your wounds cleaned with it be haram?

I think the hadith is about the beverage.

Why are you asking the question now? Eh? After I asked it? You didnt see the problem with the pic until an atheist raised it?
And before you say that I'm derailing.....I doubt that the Prophet made such a wide curse on all use of alcohol (my opinion). So I agree with you on this issue....sha waiting for ABDH's response

wiegraf: It is, though somewhat simplifying, exactly that. Just as you have your own warped reasoning/social responsibility that entails your forcing women to wear the full ninja uniform or even just cover their hair, legs, etc.

World cup time is coming, how are you going to handle the hom.osexuals and drinkers that are bound to show up? Do you think that because your storybook claims GOD!!?, your reasoning is some way, in any way whatsoever, more sensible than theirs??

It's really simple, if you don't approve of their norms, leave the country or don't visit. Same you tell foreigners who show up in islamic countries, no?

lol......you are wharrrgarbling...you sound disjointed.

Focus on the issue= the right to wear the burkha.


There is hypocrisy because many of the people who push for burkha rights do not talk about the other side of it- where women are actually forced to wear the burkha in some muslim countries. However, that is not what this thread is about.


This thread is about the banning of the burkha. Once you agree to the principle of human rights and freedom of expression, you cant restrict clothing unless it is harmful to others.

wiegraf: Again, it is also by choice one can go about committing any manner of crime, doesn't mean we should just let it be.

You've added nothing. You might as well be italo, telling me shikena!

It's simple, explain to me why their intolerance should be indulged, then perhaps you'd have a case.

Is wearing a burkha a crime? False equivalence

What is with this false equivalence? This guy, learn to argue properly.


Burkha a type of clothing. It is a choice to wear it

AbdH: Post your concerns in the right thread after all, you got this image from a particular thread.

So that I will be banned on a frivolous ground of "derailing" that other thread?


Nothing stops you from answering my question here. Well, unless you have something to hide

Islam was spread by the sword in Sub-saharan africa....including Nigeria.


Of course, the op is putting islam in a positive light and so , such misinformation in the op is allowed.




1) Islam spread through conquest in Africa. That is beyond dispute. Google it
http://africanhistory.about.com/od/slavery/a/IslamRoleSlavery01.htm

2) Uthman Dan Fodio and his holy war
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/620352/Usman-dan-Fodio

wiegraf: Not good enough. "They want it" is not good enough, at all. Terrorists would like nuclear weapons, should we let them have them simply because they want it? This isn't a case of not harming others as far they're concerned, it clearly is. Again, mostly because muslims are intolerant. Do you think this same population would have issues with say Buddhist attire? Being tolerant does not equal accepting intolerance, else tolerance will cease to exist.

Their stance is well justified.

Nonsense. If a woman wants to wear a sack from chest down, it is her choice
If a woman wants to wear a burkha, it is her choice.

Choice is the keyword.

tbaba1234: Dude, you should get an education before talking about some things please... You are going to mislead people with what you are writing.

Guy, either comment on topic or keep quiet. Why the attack on Usermane?

Skako: Even in ur bible god cause jerusalm in jeremiah 13vs27

1) I am not a christian
2) The prophet is not God
3) Is this what you preach? That all non-muslims that drink are cursed by the prophet?
4) Is number 3 a good thing?

I saw a post by a muslim on a thread about alcohol saying that the prophet cursed certain people who deal with alcohol

AbdH: Never try to justify the intake of alcohol @poster. www.nairaland.com/attachments/1381213_Alcohol_jpg0c73d00505a6d7143697810207fa63fb

https://www.nairaland.com/1493793/misconception-islam-alcohol-forbidden-all#19119479



Seriously? Why would anyone curse others because they do something that he forbids? Why? Would you curse someone that smokes or drinks? Is that a peaceful thing to do?

wiegraf: There are various ways to justify this op. Primarily though, I'd say it's about values. Would you find walking around in public na.ked acceptable? Same thing here. Would you like to see slaves running about showing off their tatoos and chains, even if they're very happy slaves, endorsing slavery left, right, centre? Same thing here. Slavery is illegal sef..

Women are second-class citizens islamically, regardless of what they tell you. The way inheritance is handled alone justifies this, not to mention the other stuff. That sort of stuff is illegal in the west. Discrimination is not supported or condoned. The burkha is a nice symbol of women in islam, and the message it sends across shouldn't be tolerated. Tolerating intolerance isn't exactly the way to go about protecting tolerance. Endorsing pseudo-slavery isn't the best way to go about protecting freedom, etc etc. If muslims showed tolerance for other views then it'd be a different story, but they don't. Women could try walking around without covering up in Saudi to see what I mean.

Is there hipocrisy here? Of course. Value systems are subjective, they are not (and cannot be) fully rational per say.

Moral relativity is inescapable, if the muslims want to whine, then they should let, say foreigners at least, that visit their countries walk around without the burkha, etc. If they can force women there to wear them when in their backyard, I fail to see why they would have an issue with others forcing them not to wear them when they visit other backyards. Nobody forced them to come over, and in those parts, that is what they value. That is the law. Muslims themselves use this reasoning to justify their morality (eg oga prophet and his child-bride). Hypocrisy, but it's a small price to pay for freedom from the POV of the west.

There are also security issues, wearing a mask in certain places aids committing crimes.....blah blah blah..

TLDR; they simply find the way women are treated in the islamic world appalling, and will not stand or condone it in anyway. If they were more tolerant it'd be a different story, but they aren't

look, I am not a fan of the Burkha but if some women want it, so be it. The burkha should not be banned

However, they Burkha women should understand that in court sometimes, they would have to remove their veil. Furthermore, they should accept some level of harrassment by shop/mall guards because it is wrong to cover your faces in shops. I have been followed around many times in stores because I sometimes use my hoodie to cover my face when I listen to music on earphones. Petty theives normally steal and cover their faces with hoodies to avoid cctv.

[quote author=Paris_Love]Queen of Jordan wears veil sometimes.[/quote]Sometimes? Most of her pics are without veil......

Anyhoo, let us leave this their thread ooo. like one poster above said- they wish to ignore commonsense.

Tomorrow, they will lie to our faces that hijab is not by force but today they are calling the choice not to wear hijab "excuses".
Many of the rich Arab women dont even wear hijab. Na the Africans, Asians, especially the poor ones that prefer it....

*runs from thread*

[quote author=*Kails*]hold up,

logicbwoy = logicboy [/quote]

dyfatai: Islam does not suck d fun out out of everytin. It enjoins u 2 av it as long as u r nt goin against any of GOD's commandment. If u r rilly open 2 reason, u will c d@ each of dos senerious u highlight have particulat reasons dey r prohibitted. Some leads 2 fornication, loss of senses(albeit temporarily or otherwise). Peace

Okay....

deols: Lol..This is not what I thought you'd say. You pass on this one..but I don't care whom you love.






Men dont need to wear burkha actually. They just need not show their packs or whatever all over the place. From the navel to the knees at least must be covered, and the clothing should not be tight fitted.

Haha....I was only joking!


As for the strict dress codes, why does islam suck the fun out of everything?


-music; some islamic schools of thought state that music is haram except when praising God
-tight fitting or slim fit clothing to show muscles or curves are haram
-alcohol- the best thing that connect friends with fun times- haram
-going on a date with your gf to the movies and snugging in- haram


If I could, I would get a knife and stab that word called haram....lol

deols: and btw, the nasty talk was just, you know, by the way, a nairaland thing. I am actually a really good person in reality

Me too......I am actually a muslimah lover in reality

deols: You forget that the rule on dressing does not apply to women alone. Men too.

No one has to look either way. No one has to provoke anyone too.

Agreed...it should apply to both men and women.....waiting for the male burkha

deols: You can judge her to not be dressing right but not that she is wayward.

Nice try but there is nothing wrong with wearing a miniskirt in public.

She cant be judged.

deols: No one cares about what the Muslim has on its mind. That cannot be judged by the society or any system. What can, is the outward appearance which does not only affect the person wearing it but others, as well.

Missing the point. A woman wearing short skirt can not be judged to be wayward. That is a baseless assumption.

^^^
The point is that normal human beings do not judge books by their covers


Did you not learn anything from the young black guy with singlet that was singing like a professional muezzin?

deols: Nasty is good, I have come to realise. I like the nasty me, better..

how cool

@ bold- How I wish you could say that at your local mosque in the presence of your fellow muslims

deols: @Op,

A woman can wear whatever she wants in her home. Taking it outside makes it a public concern. Even in the western countries you are talking about, there are laws against some forms of indecencies despite the claim of freedom.

Public dressing-
1) You have to understand one has to balance different rights and freedoms when they clash.
The right to freedom of speech is limited by the freedom to defend oneself from libel and slander.

So, your complaints about the limiting of certain freedoms is nothing

2) Public concern. If a woman wears tight trousers, must the man look? Doesnt islam tell people to lower their gaze? Why would a grown man not be able to stop staring at a woman's bottom on the street. Did they glue his neck or something?

The only time for public concern is when there is nudity. You cant walk around naked on the streets.

golpen: Straight to your points;

1. Yes it is a good thing that everybody goes the good way. The korea communists are enjoying their style and yes, it can be as creative and varying, all ladies dressing modestly, as we have different styles all of which is called trousers.

The french and italian designers who try to blend their fashions with a pinch of arab flavour are serving an interest, and the fashionable wearing it in a confined state is cool if it doesn't go beyond boundaries. This is to say that wearing a se.xy outfit in privacy with one's spouse is cool and imagineable, but parading it on the streets, internet et al, the western way, is ridiculous.

2. The state of one's heart is a different case from this we are talking about. The rotten heart is solely personal, but the unclad dressing rots several other minds.

3. Your interest in a particular aspect may change you, that is true. And good for the office lady if she dresses modest, not too okay for otherwise.

Western countries have the best indices for women?, your own opinion my dear brother.

Several NL muslims are loveable, you may only need to subtle things with your acquintances

We agree on most points but here is where I disagree

If a woman wears a bikini, must the men around her look?If you see a bossom, cant you turn away? Were you forced to look at the skimpy lady? The skimpy lady is not the one dragging the muslim man to hell, it is his lust for her.......


As for NL muslims, there are some cool guys here- Sweetnecta, Tbaba and Justaqad. For the girls- Fellis. Deols would be a nice woman but she behaves nasty to non-muslim guys.

golpen: Straight to your points;

1. Yes it is a good thing that everybody goes the good way. The korea communists are enjoying their style and yes, it can be as creative and varying, all ladies dressing modestly, as we have different styles all of which is called trousers.

The french and italian designers who try to blend their fashions with a pinch of arab flavour are serving an interest, and the fashionable wearing it in a confined state is cool if it doesn't go beyond boundaries. This is to say that wearing a se.xy outfit in privacy with one's spouse is cool and imagineable, but parading it on the streets, internet et al, the western way, is ridiculous.

2. The state of one's heart is a different case from this we are talking about. The rotten heart is solely personal, but the unclad dressing rots several other minds.

3. Your interest in a particular aspect may change you, that is true. And good for the office lady if she dresses modest, not too okay for otherwise.

Western countries have the best indices for women?, your own opinion my dear brother.

Several NL muslims are loveable, you may only need to subtle things with your acquintances

The West has fallen my hand
https://www.nairaland.com/1492144/smh-maybe-muslims-right-west

Kai, just as I was defending the west and their freedoms yesterday, the UK don fall my hand!

55% of the British support a ban on the Burkha like France did!
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/24/niqab-ban-britain_n_4158159.html?ncid=webmail1



Here I was saying freedom is in the west. So now, they feel that they can tell a woman what not to wear and still claim freedom?

While I doubt that the UK will ever ban the Burkha, I am quite disappointed in the UK public. I sha hope the polls werent a true reflection

golpen: Thanks a whole lot, but honest muslims are countless like the sand at the beach. Islam is a perfect system because it is organised by the creator and perfector (SWT), only muslims may be guilty of their shortcomings.

The islamic sharia is better in those three areas I highlighted. Let's go through how;

1. Contamination; the female dress code according to islamic sharia is one dimensional, though we may have varieties of style under that modest and basic dimension, once it doesn't go out of boundry, so you needn't worry about an indecent style contaminating or taking over the decent.

2. Damage; it is true that the moral dressing is not responsible for the regulation of innate indecent desires, but to a massive extent, it is contained within her circles. A lady in a burkha like you have said is viewed as responsible(even if not), than that in bikini (even if she is). A morally dressed woman is not so prone to sexual arrasement like the other. Side that, the level at which the unclad affects the majority is very high. Imagine the number of unreasonable erections men seeing her must have had (even young lads), while we may record nil of such in the case of a modestly dressed.

3. Interest; the islamic sharia allows for the same dressing in all aspects and offices, so they won't need to suffer any complications. At least we can get a bit relaxed.

The choice given to women by the western world is not that of sincerity. You will never be fulfilled as a good father if your one of your child is a michelle and the other poses nud.e for the ebo.ny websites, if you have given such freedom to your kids. But the western world plays the 2 sided coin game to satisfy their situations and interests.

Thank you once again sire.

Sorry, as a skeptic I disagree that there is a perfect system. We human beings are not perfect and can never be perfect, hence, we can never appreciate a perfect system if it exists. It would be beyond our thinking faculties.


So, I will highlight some problems with your points on Islam and the mode of dressing-


1) The islamic code of dressing is one dimensional as you say. Now, how is that a good thing? Is it really a good thing if every woman wears a burkha? Starting to sound like communist north Korea where every one is dressed the same. Furthermore, is it a coincidence that the fashionable Arab women who dress fashionably when they are with fellow sisters (away from men) buy American, French and Italian fashion? his is partly the result of pushing a one dimensional dressing code....it limits creativity and you start buying creative fashion from those who have the freedom to be creative. At the end of the day, when these decent burkha muslimahs want to buy se.xy clothing for playtime with their husbands....they will still buy American clothes.


2)We are saying the same thing. Forcing an indecent lady to wear decent clothing wont change her mind. The appearance might be good but the inner core is still rotten. Take for example- some female pastors who dress professionally, only to be caught in extra marital affairs......


3) Office dressing spills on to normal life. You will find that many accountants still dress a bit formal even on sunday evenings- shirt and trousers or button shirt on jeans.......



One more thing- the fact remains that western countries have the best indices for women.














Yes, there are many honest muslims. Millions of them. The problem is that it is not so obvious when dealing with certain Nairaland muslims.