₦airaland Forum

Pelecius:
Your question is a subtle red herring to what I said. I said there is no change IN HIS DIVINE NATURE.
Other theists and I have been explaining the context of change according to the Bible, but you are bent on importing your own concept.

So his divine nature accommodates him being able to age and die after you pointed out that this same divine nature makes him ageless and undying? Your cognitive dissonance is so glaring. LoL. Which is why you introduced the concept of divine nature after claiming that his being and attributes undergo no changes. LMFAO!

Pelecius:
You are free to claim whatever you want. It's a free world


Did you read "does not change his divine nature" in my post?
So much for sticking to point

And did you not see my question? Is Jesus taking and putting off humanity change or not?

Pelecius:
You are always using this tactic and I gave a simple analogy to show why I can't play by your game.
And you were clearly deflecting what I was talking about and I had to clear that up

Bro, I explained already that "but Jesus adding humanity to himself does not change his divine nature." So what are you asking? I guess the statement is easy enough to comprehend

What tactic? The tactic of sticking to a point while you go on and on about something else?

Adding humanity and taking it off again is not change?

Workch:
Yes, I swear

How can someone even think of believing in speciation and adaptation but not in evolution? Even after I tried explaining to him how that doesn’t make sense, pelecius stull didn’t get it and not even willing to understand the gaffe.

It's cognitive dissonance plus being afraid to open that door, they can feel their faith quaking.

Workch:
I wonder why you still debate pelecius. Can’t you see he doesn’t understand anything outside of the Bible?

I stopped taking him seriously when he said there’s evidence for speciation and adaptation but none for evolution. The most ignorant statement I have read on nairaland.
I showed that statement to my nephew currently taking his NECO exams and we haven’t gotten over the comedy yet.

It's when we dicuss that such miseducation gets revealed and we can tackle it but it is funny though.

Pelecius:
Again, that is what you believe about me. And I don't know how to move here and there when discussing, so I must stick to the topic.

Fine!
I'm not ready to engage in unfruitful discussion. I only discuss most times, to clear up misunderstanding. I won't engage in what I know would lead to no where

I stayed on the point I was making while you were talking about something else.

LMAO! So to reading differing opinions is unfruitful but you want me to do so, what a laugh.

Pelecius:
I used the argument to show you the context of my discussion with him, since you seem to want to come to his rescue.

See what I am saying, why responding to someone else when I told you I am not answering for him.

Yeah, both Psalms talks of him remaining the same - not changing with age; while others hint on his unchanging nature

You may want to see it the way you a want, but Jesus adding humanity to himself does not change his divine nature. So I don't know what you are trying to achieve

I want to understand what you mean by unchanging. Is Jesus still human?

budaatum:
Despite God's evolution not detailed in a single verse or chapter, God's changing nature is replete throughout the God book, the hugest being from wrathful Yahweh to forgiving Christ to the explaining Holy Spirit that are all supposedly within us humans. We just have not yet evolved to see (or accept) it yet.

It requires reading the God book from the beginning page by page to the end to understand and see God evolved over time, but many despite claimimg to have never done so, reading a la carte instead.

The beginning of Wisdom is not fear, however, but the understanding of God, which most have not yet bothered to ask and knock and seek for. But glory to God that is changing as threads as these show.

As usual my dear buda you bring the soothing balm of understanding.

Dtruthspeaker:
I already stated that "There is Change of Mind that brings about a change of Being AND there is change of mind which does not include a change of Being, as I have given you the natural examples of the differences and it's application thereof!

So it is settled already!

Yes it is settled that it is change of mind which does not include a change of Being.

Pelecius:
Can you just imagine? I'm arguing with myself?

Yeah because that was not my argument so I don't know why you brought it up.

Psa 55:19God shall hear, and afflict them, even he that abideth of old. Selah. Because they have no changes, therefore they fear not God.

Psa 102: 26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Talking about the god not aging, is this the not changing you mean?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jam 1:17

The same Jesus that became a human being? What is unchanging here?

Pelecius:
You only expressed your description about me which cannot even be found in what I wrote. I said he played atheist game of "don't use the Bible" and you still confirmed it by giving same condition. Yet, you are complaining that I lump all atheist together.
I'm not the one with prejudice here, I only stated what I've always observed, which is "prove your God without using the Bible).


Now, I'm not going to engage you with discussing whether what the Gospel wrote about him is true or not. There are millions of works on why the Gospels can be trusted. You can check them by yourself if you are truly interested in getting logical and rational reasons why we should believe the Gospels.

You are talking to me and responding to what others have said instead of engaging what I said, that is as prejudiced as they come.

Others have similarly written millions of works on why the gospels are not reliable sources for proving supernatural powers attributed to historical figures. Go read them too so we can discuss it.

Pelecius:
No amount of gymnastics will work here. And this could be the last time I will respond to this topic of change, it's something which is crystal clear. Changing one's mind on decision is NOT the same as changing one's attributes and behavior. His objections are as follows:
1. God does not change, but he changed his mind (referencing were he said he was grieved that he made man).
2. God does not change but he is portrayed differently in New Testament.

Those are what I responded too. He didn't raise any objections to them because it was clear that the first does not just follow and the second was wrong (likely due to ignorance).

Lastly, Malachi is not the only reference of the unchanging nature of God.


GOD DOES NOT CHANGE

Nobody said they were the same so you were probably arguing with yourself.

Mention the other places were the god's unchanging nature was stated.

Dtruthspeaker:
There is Change of Mind that brings about a change of Being AND there is change of mind which does not include a change of Being, as I have given you the natural examples of the differences and it's application thereof!

Then agree that the change spoken about is the change of mind which does not include a change of Being.

Dtruthspeaker:
That's Why I Love Truth It is so powerful that even you, in spite of all your efforts, could not suppress it.

See, how you cinfessed exactly the Truth of The Word of God which hath Truly Said "keep your hearts/mind/soul with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of Life"

The Bible Always Says the Truth!

Good, then also agree that change spoken about is the god changing his mind and not his being or attributes.

Dtruthspeaker:
The Next "turn up" is The Judgement and of all the evils and their cohorts for their onward transmission to the prison of the Lake if Fire.

Make e come first, person wey come from long journey go first rest. LoL!

Dtruthspeaker:
Not true! Every time people say "you don change" they always mean change of being. Eg "if you see Joe now, e don change, E na gentleman now"

The exception is when the change is specific only to an area, of which the communication clearly shows that what it addresses, is directed to a certain area. Eg "Osas don change, E no dey do medicine again na music E dey do now."

The information is very clear and reasonably understandable and you know all these.

Therefore you know the difference between the Right to Change my Decisions yet I do not change from a whole personality and attitude change.

All these changes you highlight are all from the mind even a personality change is from the mind.

frank317:
Worst still, the so called Jesus performed lots of magic... Turned water to wine (really?), healed the sick (in a world with no hospital), cured the blind etc and promised his followers will do much more... We are still looking for the first blind man to cured... Whats even the physical relevance of the existence of Jesus

A Jesus that was God the creator didnt teach us anything relevant in his once in a life time opportunity to show himself to the world. Not even the invention of microphone or loud speakers knowing it would be easier for him to speak to five thousand people and awe them with both his invention and insightful words... How long will we continue to decive ourselves.

I am still waiting for Jesus to turn up as they said, let him turn some water to wine let's party. LoL!

Pelecius:
That's your wish and opinion. I am not deflecting from my argument for presenting case of Jesus' record (directly or not) in works of ancient history.
An atheist gave a challenge, with promise attached. The challenge was met and he just waved it away. Now you are trying to help change the goal post.
I'm sorry, I'm not interested in playing a game of cheat.

Pelecius:
How are you different? You are still playing the same game "bring proof outside the Bible".
Is that not what atheists do?
You only helped in moving the goal post, and restarting the game with your universal rule - "no Bible"

This is the problem with people like you who "otherize" people, you forget you are dealing with individuals and even when your attention is called to it you are so blinded by your prejudice it affects your reasoning. I have made it clear that I am not arguing about Jesus' existence but about his purported supernatural ability but your prejudice won't let you engage my point you are still talking to me as if you are talking to some monolithic personality called atheist.

Is Jesus the first person to be attributed supernatural ability? Why should we believe his simply because the bible says so when many other people have their scriptures telling of their own favourite religious leader's supernatural abilities.

Pelecius:
Why are you even trying to do this? God cannot change simply means his being and attributes does not change.
It's something I explained already that people can change for example, from being a good person to a bad person.
It's a funny fallacy to equate changing one's mind on decision making to changing one self on attributes and behavior.

I repeat, there's no gymnastics possible here

Simple fact is when people talk of changing they do not mean changing being or changing attributes even changing from good to bad is change of mind essentially.

The only scripture reference to the god changing is in Malachi talking about why the Israelites were not consumed, the only way that makes any sense is if it is referring to the god's purported covenant with Israel which is all about what the god said and the decisions he made not about his attributes or being.

What is the fallacy here?

BeLookingIDIOT:
The earliest non-christian reference to Jesus is even an interpolation added later to his works by latter xtians

Let's even grant that they are correct so what? It doesn't still add any credence to the son of god story.

Workch:
Are getting frustrated?

Don't waste your time, not worth the effort.

Pelecius:
Of course, it's a different game with you. He believed and is convinced that Jesus never existed and I only need to cite Historians who mentioned him.
Debating his life is another thing

I am not arguing for Workch, I am stating my position as an atheist as a counter to your assertion in which you tried to lump all atheists together.

Pelecius:
These were Historians. They were not just any Dick and Harry that were just babbling. The mentioning was in the sense of real events and of course, that the Christians were his (real person) followers. (I think I know that you don't subscribe to such idea)

And again, I wasn't arguing for who he was, but just that his existence can be corroborated with extra Biblical documents which he thought does not exist.

Again it is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. Mentioning the leader of a religious sect means nothing in the grand scheme of things. There have been very many religious leaders in the annals of history, Jesus is accorded far more significance and power than most of them so if these historical accounts can't verify these powers then they are not important.

Pelecius:
The context of the situation will determine. I don't believe that you don't know what he was referring to when he said God does not change, yet said he was portrayed differently in new testament.
I believe you would also know what he was referring to when he said God changed his mind. This imply that I can change my mind by not eating rice, and opting for beans. It doesn't follow that I have become a different person , say I used to be a cheat, but I am no longer one.
Those are the difference
You are more brilliant than the gymnastics you are about to play on his behalf.

What gymnastics? When people say god does not change are they referring to him changing his being or him changing his mind?

The one attempting gymnastics here is you.

Dtruthspeaker:
The Word is "Doing" (Deeds)!

"Practice" is the beginning of the Do in Doing !

And as you see, we all do a lot of religions.

The toothpaste god and the soap god is pleased with your daily worship. LMFAO!

DarkLord69:
Hey Kobojunkie,

My assertion about science being a God wasn't confusing, it's very straightforward. Whichever you've mastered, science or magick, it would take you steps farther than other men.

Kang's mastering of future tech has made him become a God. The ruler of all timelines, he would easily defeat a titan like Thanos and co. By his mastering of time flows he can do back and forth in time as he pleases. He can annex Techs and secrets of any timeline he wants. Science made him a God, that is, science is the God.

Like I wrote earlier, once we(humans) fully understand the time flow in relationship with quantum mechanics, we would do the unthinkable.

I, Fredrick knew right from the time that we are in a kind of simulation but I've yet to theorized that. We can liken the TVA to that glass & gold palace we've always been told in theology.

So you are using the word god metaphorically?

Story, story.

Pelecius:
Really? Will you truly change your mind or apply gymnastics to what I'll provide so as to hold on to your atheistic faith?

But "aside the Bible..." Is the atheist ploy and tactic of separating the theist from his source of authority. It's like saying that one should explain Newtonian Physics without referencing the work of classic scientists. Or evolution without referencing the work of Darwin. It's futile since info are not brought out of vacuum. But I'll go ahead to play your game anyway

Many Historians, through whose works we know some ancient historical figures mentioned Jesus in their work. The chief I'll mention are
1. Tacitus
2. Josephus

I'll await the gymnastics

Mentioning Jesus is not not the same as proof of his existence (note I do not doubt that he existed). Tactius and Josephus mention Jesus because they were speaking about Christians, it's like speaking of Buddhists and mention Buddha, it doesn't mean Buddha is still alive somewhere or that he has/had supernatural powers.

Pelecius:
Like I said, the first statement is a statement of faith. It's an atheist creed.

It is not. Jesus' existence is irrelevant, what is relevant is proving all the supernatural attributes.

Dtruthspeaker:
"a pursuit or interest (with system and rythym I add) followed with great devotion."

Hello did you practice your bathing and brushing your teeth religion this morning? Are you practicing your wearing clothes religion today or is unclothedness your religion? Are you gonna practice your go to work religion today or is idleness your brand of religion? So many religions you practice my dear man! All those gods must be pleased! LMFAO!

keppler:
I taught them that god never change but in my mind, I wasn’t convinced because while reading the Bible, there many instances of god[b] changing his mind[/b] and even regretting his decisions
Again, this is false equivocation. I don't know anyone who understands language (English in this case) who would agree that CHANGING ONE'S MIND is the same thing as CHANGING ONESELF. I don't need to say much on this again but this is another reason you gave but is invalid to begin with.

When someone says "you have changed" are they saying you have become an entirely different type of being or that you have changed your mind/behaviour on certain things?