Mr_Anony2:

Thanks a lot.

I'm game. Do you live near Oxford by any chance?

@Mr_Anony2

Thank you and I am just about replying back. One moment please

Mr_Anony2:

Thanks a lot.

I'm game. Do you live near Oxford by any chance?

@Mr_Anony2

Hi.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, an authenticating question for me to reply back with

I'll follow up with the answer and we can then take it from there. Yeah?

ATMC:

@moderndisc you mean to say christianity is not like every other religion...agreed...but d fact and truth remains dt it is a religion, agree?

@ATMC

If you want to think it or other things through.

Consider, why is it about Christianity and not about Jesus-ity?

Consider, is there any difference between Christ and Jesus?

Consider, what you have with your other half, your kid(s), dad or mum etc; is it "religion" you have with them?

Fact of the matter is, religion is a facet, it is a feature of something bigger

and true religion, a pure and genuine one acceptable to God, is about caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

Goshen360:

Okay. We will begin digging this subject of Justification this week. Are y'all ready. I can see our brother moredendisc and Ihedinobi warming up with our sister ATMC, getting ready to jump in. Y'all welcome. First, we need to understand what justification means or is, then we can fly. Justification is NOT sanctification and NOT Glorification. All three are distinct one from the other. The question that then follow AFTER understand what each means is, how are we justified?

Justification is a legal declaration of being declared not guilty. It is a pronouncement of being cleared the guilt. When one is justified, he is declared right before the Lord; he is pardoned and cleared of any violation. It speaks of a declaration that gives us, Christians a right standing before God. It is a one time event involving an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, since we have been justifIED through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, - Romans 5:1

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Much more then, being now justifIED by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Romans 5:9

Sanctification on the other hand, is a continuous process that conforms us through the work of the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ whereby we separate ourselves unto Christ's service. Sanctification commences with our justification. Hence, the fruit of the Spirit is evidence in our sanctification.

New International Version (©1984)
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. - 2 thess. 2:13

Glorification. This is the completion of our Christian life on earth, at the end of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven. The completion of our Christian walk IN Christ is to be glorified, which is the end result of our salvation and it is future glory of the believer IN Christ.

New International Version (©1984)
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. - Romans 8:30

@Goshen360

My brother you are teacher . . .

Don't put the cart before the horse, so teach with explanations

How can you dive straight into Justification without tackling Justice or Just first

Just, this essence of God is a key ingredient to understanding Justification and all/any intricacies that surrounds it

Understanding justice or God's position as a Just God paves the way to appreciate the dynamics of Justification, the evolution, the process, the importance and the run of it

Why does one need to be declared right before the Lord? (i.e. be pardoned and cleared of any violation)

How did God go about making this a reality or go about making it possible?

If intending to guide the thought, then I believe this path should be thread first . . .

ATMC:

I have heard several times dt christianity is not a religion but d very same people dt make this statement will go on to say dt christianity is a way of life...lol. What a contradiction!
D question is what is religion? What is a way of life? One answer can serve for both and dt is CULTURE.
Culture is a way of life and religion is simply culture so christianity as a way of life is culture which can be referred to as religion. Think it through.

@ATMC

Christianity is not religion per se but in parts religion, as in true religion as it is known and is based on all that James 1:27 is about

ATMC:

Still unclear

@ATMC

I know it wouldn't be . . .

The transcripts is not fool proof

I can easily correct it but the spam-bot would not take kindly to pasting it here

Mr_Anony2:

I am on about the topic of Justification itself i.e. How is a christian justified before God?

What I am most interested in is: What did Paul really mean? and how would the Early Christians who were reading him at the time have understood it?

That I believe is the key to answering the question.

@Mr_Anony2

That program claimed to be a program that gets one thinking

Understanding God as Just, is a precursor to understanding Justification and the intricacy(ies) around it

If you're game, we can chat using instant messenger or meet somewhere mutually convenient to chat over coffee/tea

Ihedinobi:

The transcript is difficult to read. And I can't watch the video because of the poor network where I am.

But I'm interested in the discussion.

Can anyone help me out with a summary of both arguments?

@Ihedinobi

What was posted is not actually the whole transcript.

This was a hour and half discussion, and encourages the spam-bot to be on your case when attempting to paste the rest of the transcript

It wasn't arguments as such but presentation of views (e.g. Tom's James' etc), dodging views as in moving to one side or out of the presented view's way (e.g. Tom's), subtle passive aggressive views etc

I think the Justification matter was skirted a lot and without debating it well enough or conclusively

Tom was right, James was right too, however one was ahead in other matters, the third guy wasn't that comfortable with Tom's views and so was advocating caution

Mayowura:

What about those who would have loved to participate(esp. me) but have no via(i mean like enough internet data,time,etc) to watch the video?

Well, just speaking for myself anyway, but am sure there are many others like me with same issue.


Maybe i would just follow the topic and see how it ends.
Thanks

@Mayowura

Automatic caption/transcript
0:00
well good afternoon unwelcome along to unbelievable with me justin brierley
0:04
it's the program every saturday afternoon here on prime your christian
0:07
radio
0:08
lengths to get you thinking and we've got all wonderful parrot guests coming
0:11
up today james white and anti rights that they're going to be talking about
0:16
justification a special program today dino number of people have been looking
0:20
forward to sinn fein ousted last week
0:23
but before we get their full introductions and getting to today's
0:26
program
0:27
can i tell you dot unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen is coming on
0:30
saturday the twenty fifth of maggie it's uh... conference for anyone interested
0:35
in apologetics evangelism theology thinking through your faith in how to
0:39
present it rationally reasonably to other people
0:42
it is outside the major apologetics event of the year
0:45
in central london
0:47
so if you can come along on sunday the twenty fifth of night why not register
0:50
your interest now we've got a website up and running
0:53
uh... datya premio dot org dot u_k_ slash jesus that spring it dot org dot
0:59
u_k_ slash jesus
1:01
why jesus well because of the theme of the conference
1:04
unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen jesus lie absolutely take
1:08
legend or lord
1:11
might be able to tell if you are into apologetics a little bit of a reference
1:14
to
1:15
the uh... newest try them ucsd is destroyed and lower lip added another
1:18
category that because we are talking about jesus uh...
1:22
he asked his disciples who do you say that i am not question resounds today
1:26
we're going to be looking in some depth with special guest speakers
1:30
alistair mcgrath
1:31
annual ewing p_-two as williams
1:34
buzz around there
1:35
uh... travis tamas and other guest besides
1:37
at the question of jesus who he was how we can
1:41
transmit that truth to other people wheels to be looking at c_s_ lewis and
1:44
he's continuing legacy after fifty years from his death
1:48
and also based on the front will be tackling some of those controversial
1:51
ethical issues like abortion
1:53
euthanasia
1:54
what science has to say
1:56
if you can join us idly
1:58
love to see that it is or is a fantastic thing it is the third year we've been
2:01
running it
2:02
saturday the twenty fifth of night two thousand and thirteen in central london
2:06
how do you go and register your interest and will be able to do full booking once
2:10
that becomes life uh... but you can if you're if you're interested as your
2:14
email address you'll get the full details of what's happening at the
2:17
conference and of course you'll be the first night when the booking lines to
2:21
open site premio dot org dot u_k_ slash
2:25
jesus is the place to go
2:27
well let me introduce today's guest yet
2:33
likely to be looking forward to having
2:35
and she writes that home is feel nine uh... tone right anti rights that
2:40
joining me on the program today research professor of new testament early
2:44
christianity at andrews necessity
2:46
and we're here to talk about
2:49
the example release a about justification that's the question
2:54
that we looking at on today's conditions of unbelievable
2:58
tom has
2:59
in many ways thing at the forefront of looking into the historical jesus
3:03
resurrection implement some of those victory for the most part
3:08
also the at nature all orenthal writing has been a major papers in the last few
3:13
years you've got a new book coming out later in the year
3:16
uh... all in the faith with the court
3:18
and uh...
3:20
a lot of the argument to say that have been raging the academic world and if
3:23
you look at the world have been to do with
3:25
what he writes about the nature or justification
3:29
uh... that what's sometimes called
3:31
the new perspective
3:33
uh... so
3:34
we gonna get tool that's also on the program joining me today
3:37
uh... show regular he's been on a number of times before james white joins the
3:41
director of alpha anindita ministries
3:43
absent arizona in the states
3:45
uh... he's myself um... is a bible scholar and uh... he's
3:49
uh... parts of
3:50
what you would call
3:51
generally the reform tradition uh... he's accompanist what does that mean
3:55
there when it comes to this debate why particularly have some of the more
3:58
influential voices in that world john piper
4:02
is that the specific example
4:04
today now we're talking about just dictation welcome a long time to your
4:08
program thank you very much good to be with you
4:10
well as a side oblong wants to have you on so when i saw that there was a
4:14
possibility of you coming in i thought let's not in let's go ahead at last
4:19
week ago which calm but anti right is how many people you know you as as an
4:23
offer uh...
4:24
you seem to be a produce more books and i've had hoped
4:28
dinners admits what is the secret seal prolific output uh... there's no secrets
4:33
uh...
4:34
simply aspects of the first twenty years of my adult life during losses reading
4:38
studying praying thinking
4:40
discussing
4:41
and sometime around just when i turn forty i thought you know i've been doing
4:45
some time as thomas dot iraq sits on the down
4:48
and uh... happily the whole word processing fee of taken off and wifi and
4:53
i can use could be so it might very fast
4:57
in a sense i was cutting a lot of seeds for twenty years which have been in the
5:00
last twenty years been bearing fruit
5:02
they certainly have uh... hands
5:04
many people would see years at the forefront of
5:07
modern scholarship especially uh... person of paul uh...
5:13
at the same time doing anything you often means that people will disagree
5:16
with your thesis is and not leases a mention people like ad in the states
5:20
john piper but
5:22
uh... what what is exactly that you said if you can condense into a nut shell
5:25
that has got people buddies
5:28
very interested but also some people rather skeptical
5:32
it's hard to say one thing because there's three or four different things
5:35
which kind of
5:36
uh... rush together a certain point uh... for instance one of the things
5:40
that i and many others have become convinced is that many first-century
5:43
jews
5:44
really well living out of a long story which goes back to daniel nine which
5:49
says that there is a sense in which the exile hasn't finished yet
5:52
and that called me to do something new which will finish it this is a space
5:56
tint on your mind
5:57
and for many people that's very scary the idea of a continuous story which is
6:01
now reaching fulfilment that's not how they've seen portal
6:05
but then it's a quite different level
6:06
it's to do with wanted first introduce really believe
6:10
that they were doing when they were keeping the lol were they earning
6:13
favor with called or something like that
6:15
and in a sense yes they were in a sense no they weren't
6:18
my my real problem is that i think am i have glimpsed in the first century a
6:24
sense that they are much more concerned as jesus himself was with colds kingdom
6:28
come on earth
6:29
hasn't happened
6:30
and western christianity has been concerned of how to leave the thumb go
6:34
to heaven and the justification debates have often been framed in appalachia
6:38
uh... context and so when i said no actions is about new creation it's about
6:42
resurrection it's about called you world and how you tell in the president's who
6:46
is going to be part of gold's new world
6:48
people get very steady m
6:50
and so it's it's a combination of several different things as well as
6:54
particular texts which
6:56
have been favorites for for exigency preaches
6:59
and which when i've looked at them some of them i've said lou
7:03
looks to me really as though that doesn't mean what we all thought it
7:06
meant
7:06
and then that is that is very upsetting people naturally unit and
7:10
plus and work
7:11
this is
7:12
what drives you isn't it going back to the text going back to the background of
7:16
the context of a texan and
7:18
in this debate that we're having today about justification your feeling is that
7:22
very often people are looking too
7:24
the city debates in the medieval church more than the debates that was going on
7:28
people's day yes uh... without wishing to be picky let me just pick you up this
7:31
isn't something i feel is something i think this is a man a major problem in
7:35
contempt for the schools that needs a few when we mean thinks it was sort of a
7:38
very fine them
7:39
uh... particular i think that's the way that the reformers
7:43
work addressing the question
7:45
came to them actually from the fourteenth and fifteen sentry from the
7:48
theories of justification of the matching his tutsi which was very
7:51
and powerful prevalent in medieval church
7:54
and the way i say it is a social trend is that the reformers are doing their
7:57
best to give biblical ons is to the wrong questions ortiz dot entirely the
8:02
wrong questions but at least questions that was significantly floored and i'm
8:06
really interested in getting back and saying
8:09
water of the questions that were out there in the first century the polls
8:12
giving his answers to
8:14
parts of the tricky is to see
8:16
uh... how the whole of paul's letters fit together in other words you called
8:20
stop romans three at first twenty six
8:22
and you come to meet romans nine to eleven
8:25
you columns and pull apart bits of the nation's three and just con straight on
8:29
buses ten to fourteen forget other bits and so on and so on
8:32
so i'm really concerned about the whole flow of each letter
8:36
i have a sense the different from calvin listening to that claim
8:39
they would say yeah that's the thing you have to do go for it they might disagree
8:42
i did it but that's my agenda is to go back to the text in
8:46
get it right
8:46
i know you've got another quote your
8:48
papers i've does magnum really if that's the right word
8:52
is coming out late in the uh... uh... that's the big evol you on paul's and
8:57
say we look forward to that way you
8:59
to begin b keep people even more cool stuff potentially
9:02
find follow ups and millions of hostages to force in the but i'll tell you all
9:06
schisms and
9:07
evidences and answers as to what's going on
9:10
so we lay out exactly what you
9:12
say
9:13
about the way pull really means justification what he really meant when
9:17
he's that would
9:19
uh... before we get to you in that case out let's introduce our other guest for
9:22
today's program that is of course james whites
9:25
and james nate strange to this program uh... last oh i think james talking with
9:31
muslim guest in the light of stuff going on around the uh... the film of the
9:34
prophet muhammad and so on
9:36
you coming back to shore soon i think i need to do a few more discussions
9:39
debates in tool
9:40
i actually i'll be in uh... dublin at the end of this month but really college
9:45
uh... and you know you cd i believe uh... both uh... two different to
9:49
tonight's uh... discussing
9:50
the koran as the word of god with some of most americans out of their soul
9:54
justice couple weeks but i won't actually being the one that at that
9:57
point
9:57
i'll be teaching berlin in june so i may get the london abap level we will see
10:01
its uh... still sort of the new york how great stuff well if you're in the island
10:05
area and work to make a day-to-day to check out the details and of course
10:09
details for both my guests in their websites
10:11
with the podcast of today's program
10:13
uh... that's premier tofu dot u_k_ slash unbelievable
10:17
and jiang's and thank you so much for coming on st
10:21
we should say from the outset you haven't had much time to prepare for the
10:24
sake of very late notice once i found tom was coming in
10:27
and so on so and
10:29
with that uh... is sort of addendum uh... tell us a little bit about what
10:34
you've made of
10:35
tom's work as you interacted with over the years
10:38
well yeah i did like contrast the when i had my debated john donne across in the
10:42
uh... incredibly intelligent term and i had six months to immerse myself his
10:47
lectures about this that
10:48
uh... his autobiography and everything else of seventy hours not quite the same
10:53
thing but
10:54
uh... actually uh... the new perspective was a focus of my studies uh... back
10:59
around two thousand three two thousand five
11:02
and i live in the side primarily because that's my really begin my serious uh...
11:06
study of
11:07
as farm in the car on another defense
11:10
of picking up arabic and all that uh... wonderful fun stuff not really a whole
11:13
lot of overlap there though i think we will see that there are some questions
11:16
that that arise uh... that i that i want to raise that at some of later point but
11:21
um... in this subject uh... out all the ostriches past couple days has been very
11:25
interesting because
11:27
i have a very well worn copy of what same poll really said in my hands and
11:32
overwhelm markets and lots of lots of
11:34
uh... comments the notes and things like that
11:37
but there've been development sense then and so looking at the exchange between a
11:42
doctor right in dr piper
11:44
in their published works
11:45
um... was somewhat helpful
11:48
though not as helpful as i hoped it would be sleeper goss with you
11:51
and so i'm gonna ask uh... uh... and again i a m i was just races that's way
11:56
that you use contradict the titles for their own the writer editor doctor
12:00
patient i don't know
12:01
hydrogenated years there but insist
12:06
just great against membrane that anyways uh... what i found an ad like that i'd
12:10
like to ask if this would be
12:12
really
12:13
representational of where tom feels himself to be today
12:17
is your jets article from archer twenty eleven that's about as close as i can
12:21
get
12:21
okay justification yesterday today and forever with that
12:25
uh... seat
12:27
i apologize and so when i for example deal with islam
12:31
uh... i don't know who'd run this in my head years ago in really i was a
12:36
conviction mine before menstruation
12:38
you go to the original sources
12:39
and one of things that has really concern me just over the past couple
12:43
days
12:44
is i hear a lot of talking past from both directions there's a lot of
12:49
um...
12:50
language problems were using the same words mean different things by them
12:54
uh... this is nothing new you go back to the early transferring controversies
12:58
east and west with costly talking past rhythm
13:00
partly because of greek and and latin and so and so forth
13:04
i've just says the lot of of uh... miscommunication between both sides
13:09
ans uh... especially in listening to people attempting to summarize new
13:14
perspective is the most don't think that's even a
13:16
a possible thing to do
13:18
in there so many different new perspectives i mean there's so many
13:21
different nuances between yourself and james d_ g_ donner are uh... sanders or
13:25
or whoever else it might be
13:27
that i've tried to find a way of really focusing upon you individually because
13:32
he
13:33
uh... for example you have and much higher view of uh... the consistency in
13:39
inspiration scripture
13:41
than many others who would call themselves new perspectives
13:44
and that has to be brought out it's not brought out there's going to be a
13:46
flattening out this could be a misrepresentation and that's something i
13:49
think you complain about many many times
13:52
uh... in yemen different concepts
13:54
uh... so my background as an apologist primarily drove me to this article and
13:59
and that's really were i'm gonna be focusing my about my talents if that's
14:03
if that's useful to you is that certainly useful in anonymity ways and
14:07
because of
14:08
the constraints the program like this we won't be able to
14:11
betty grace the surface of many of thick issues here and but what we will have to
14:16
do is layout
14:18
the perspective uh... on justification
14:20
allow you some time to make some critics are some questions
14:24
a south james and uh... and see what all has to say in response and and let
14:27
people go away in uncut more things if they wanted
14:31
that who perhaps i could just say if thats chaps article would be is a good
14:34
place to start that was a recent short statement
14:37
in a conference where i was in debate with frank field semen from descended
14:40
into school and uh... atone tryna from southern seminary
14:44
and both aus calls that i've enjoyed engaging with i've used to work on other
14:48
occasions
14:48
where not head to head on everything has a lot we agree on but let me just very
14:52
firmly say yes to ward was just said about
14:55
the new perspective there is no one thing called a new perspective
14:59
several different scholars with very very different views and indeed ever
15:02
since
15:03
uh... the publication of its on this in nineteen seventy seven which really got
15:06
this thing going
15:07
i've spent as much time attacking or modifying all pulling away from saunders
15:11
as i have agreeing with him
15:13
he kind of
15:14
alerted assaults one particular phenomena namely a misrepresentation of
15:18
first-century judaism i don't think he got it right either
15:21
and the tosca is to go on beyond that to the scene now where can we all
15:25
welcome well that's the topic up today in general terms anthony perspective
15:30
uh... even though it's a hopping to pin down
15:33
but particularly within that new perspective we asking today wanted
15:37
simple release a about justification within a cat
15:40
psalm to explain why he thinks
15:42
the church has misunderstood
15:45
what paul manned by justification for quite a long time
15:48
if you want to get involved if you want to add respond to anything you hear on
15:51
today's program i would welcome your emails that unbelievable at premio dot
15:56
org dot u_k_
15:57
you can equally find me on twitter at unbelievable j_p_ if you want to tweet
16:01
me uh... and face book dot com slash unbelievable j_p_ if you want to like
16:06
the face book page
16:07
don't get all the links including to both my guest today james white and tom
16:11
right i'm gonna get confused on site between hasty and their own available
16:15
from the cherry page premier dot org dot u_k_ slash
16:19
unbelievable
16:20
you're listening to the sherry that aims to get you thinking
16:27
hide
16:34
so coming back to you that tom and in the last tends to texas as a starter
16:39
question you on this and
16:42
in a nutshell
16:44
you know and i'll tell you i was it
16:48
it's important say about just protection
16:50
what have we often issues he was saying
16:53
what do you think
16:54
he actually said
16:56
let me try make this is brief as i can it it's it's not as straightforward as
17:00
its ultimatum indeed one of the main problems is oversimplification
17:04
i'm committed to understanding each of the biblical texts in the proper context
17:08
and in trying to say what to do a very specifically have to say
17:13
galatians is the first major statement
17:16
and in donations poor is really concerned about the fact that you do not
17:20
have to become physically jewish by males getting circumcised in order to
17:24
belong to the covenant people of god
17:26
however ever since the medieval period is going to the start of martin luther
17:31
people pulled away from the idea of the couple of people the people of a brown
17:36
that was in the middle ages wanted to know about they want to know how do i go
17:39
to heaven
17:39
and so they took
17:41
pulls arguments about belonging to the
17:43
historic people of golden of the children abraham and they translated
17:47
that into language about going to have him which actually
17:50
relations doesn't have anything to say about doesn't mention salvation
17:53
certainly doesn't mention
17:56
dimension which is now so familiar to us
17:58
and so there's been a major misunderstanding that it's about how we
18:01
know
18:02
all those who believe in jesus pot right now
18:05
members of the same family at the same table
18:08
this is not something although then
18:10
forgiveness of sins of sector because
18:12
in order to create this family out of a sinful humanity
18:16
gold has to deal with this and that the emphasis of deletions
18:19
and of what what the language of just occasion
18:22
is a people coming into that family then in philippians chapter three more
18:26
briefly
18:27
tapestry versus two for eleven bull sets out to stall
18:31
this is the kind of july walls i was the real zealous type the hardliner
18:35
box
18:36
i have discovered a bit into the messiah jesus
18:39
all that has been stood on its head and by dying and rising with the missile i
18:43
have
18:44
a state to solve
18:45
righteousness which is my own
18:47
not a statement which is not my own based on the role but his
18:50
a status which is gold's gift it's a righteous news from gold upon the face
18:55
here again it's about covenant membership
18:57
there's nothing in philippines three to two eleven abouts in and being forgiven
19:02
that's really important we have to do justice to that when paul expands that
19:06
language in romans
19:08
he expands it by using
19:10
lol court language which goes with justification as well
19:15
in a way which he doesn't in deletions in philippians and in the law court
19:19
there are two different things going on all the as quickly because i can about
19:22
this but but it really is is quite tricky
19:25
in romans too
19:26
he talks about a future justification that is the time when god will judge the
19:31
whole world
19:32
and declare that some people really are his people and that's what's going to be
19:37
there's a line from that in the letter which goes all the way to captivate when
19:41
he says there is no condemnation for those who are in christ jesus and at the
19:45
end
19:46
it is but it is going to justifies who's to condemn
19:49
so the line from romans tutor romans eight
19:52
is all about the ultimate future
19:54
justification then romans three
19:57
he describes how verdict which will be announced on the future date
20:02
is brought
20:03
all woods into the president's
20:04
when someone believes in jesus and that's question complicated scheme for
20:09
us to grasp but it was very easy for palmas that's had pheasant regions
20:12
thought there is that great coming day how do we know in the president's
20:16
who is going to be among gold's people on that day surrenders three is about
20:20
the fact that on the basis of the the death of jesus and because of
20:25
people coming to face
20:27
going to class in the present that they are in the right that their sins are
20:31
forgiven that they're part of a brown's family
20:33
that i think what somalia did sorry well i'm not a very candid and abrasive
20:37
lifetimes coalition in september
20:40
uh... and if i can try and
20:41
trying spell this out and and you will have to grant me
20:44
but can we say the justification and as far as paul was consent is about
20:48
membership more than personal salvation like uh... this is precisely because the
20:54
role that we have to avoid ok because
20:57
the membership questions the membership in the family of paper hand
21:00
and the purpose of abraham is family whilst undo
21:03
listener adam that is the huge thing which
21:06
once you put that in the middle of the picture
21:08
everything becomes clear why do you want to belong to the family of abraham for
21:11
goodness sake onset
21:13
because they are the people
21:15
room the odometer entail of sin and death
21:18
has been dealt with so it's got to be both
21:21
and did the reformers get it wrong then
21:23
i mean did they get the wrong and that the speak essentially about what
21:26
justification aids they came with them meaning for the world used to pick up
21:31
seeing in latin justification
21:33
which walls about
21:35
uh... the medieval doctrine of use tutsi a justice and they screamed out
21:40
biologically thinking for more than calvin
21:43
all the jewish emphasis all the abraham emphasis all of that
21:46
the calls for luther
21:48
the jews were teaching justification by works therefore this couldn't be of
21:51
jewish idea because that would slide you back many scholars make that's a mistake
21:55
today
21:58
will get gangs to respond to this that
22:03
a lot of people seem worried that your somehow undermining
22:08
the group that's we saved by grace
22:11
because many people said when paul talks about his poss life is a to uh... uh...
22:16
uh... nor keeping view
22:19
that says to us today that you're not going to get back to heaven by your good
22:23
works
22:24
it's all about wolcott is done for you in jesus christ
22:27
and that you are somehow undermining that court doctrine that cool unit
22:31
aspect of protestant
22:34
christianity part of the difficulty is the new testament is not turbine shit
22:37
about going to happen that's interested in the new heavens in the new with and
22:41
in the kingdom of god coming on earth has in heaven
22:43
and as long as we persist in talking about how we get to heaven
22:47
we're reversing what the new testament is really all about
22:50
i've often said happen is important but it's not the end of the world when we
22:54
had i don't know if we are if where christ we got to be with christ which is
22:57
far better but but then actions is this isn't a separate discussions this
23:01
effects
23:02
how do you talk about present justification
23:05
in terms of how you see the future
23:07
all right well we've we've had it spelled out and and gangs
23:10
to some initial thoughts what what are your main concerns with the way toned
23:15
the news perspective deal with issues she of justification
23:19
always fascinates me is as i approached this of the justice the word from my own
23:24
experience uh... when i was in seminary
23:27
um... again because i had this go to the original sources i've found a local
23:31
christian bookstore i'd personally purchase the mission arnott and decency
23:35
nepal mud
23:36
uh... this is back to free to do that electronico interest
23:39
and uh... i
23:41
have always recognize that there is a spectrum of jewish belief i think one of
23:45
the issues that has to be addressed it went well the reason this is such a
23:47
complex issue
23:49
is because there's so many underlying issues in regards to tentative judy is a
23:53
man
23:53
and what is second temple jews believe and of course are all sorts of different
23:56
kinds of perspectives amongst them and all the rest the stuff
24:00
i've just never been in a position where
24:03
love like i guess as as tom input of certain especially lutherans would would
24:08
be a
24:09
right viewed the jews in this monolithic pull yourself up by your boot straps
24:12
mode anyways as this business never have understood it
24:16
and
24:16
in the basque of reform theology you have union with christ you have the
24:21
covenant of grace
24:22
you have just vacation having its proper place in the midst of all of this and it
24:28
just seems to me that
24:29
the things that i hear in uh... especially in tom's present asian
24:34
that resonate with me and i see is being biblical i ready hat
24:38
um... identified i don't think that uh... it's it's addressed to me because
24:42
i didn't view it in that way
24:44
and the questions and then come up though
24:47
that many people have read drivers repeated or over and over again
24:52
has to do with this
24:53
what is the ground
24:55
lose and the basis
24:57
of my standing before god
24:59
and does that change between now
25:02
and the future
25:03
in other words when you say that digest fish is primarily an ecclesiastical
25:07
ethnically theology issue who's in how can we know now
25:12
what is the grounds that i have as an individual
25:16
in having peace with god and in however we understand romans foreign city one
25:20
issues i don't know for you don't get to it but
25:23
uh... but but on the missing aromas for one
25:26
if he will have to admit is outside the normal range of exegesis are saying the
25:30
same print is five twenty one of romans ten and and how we understand some of
25:34
things there
25:35
there's some issues we can get into there and and that's where it becomes
25:38
somewhat complicated but
25:40
how do we know
25:41
not just from the external sends of how do we know who's in the covenant now
25:46
but the big issue that there's a lot of concern about is when we get to the and
25:53
and tom says that the final declaration of justification will be based upon the
25:59
life live
26:00
the issue of based upon
26:03
according to
26:04
new these are all issues that the people become very uncomfortable
26:08
by understand i think by understand i'm trying to understand in distinction to
26:12
other new perspective this
26:14
what tom is saying at that point
26:16
but my concern is that when i think about the jews idols see them as as
26:21
moralists trying to pull themselves up other bootstraps
26:24
but idea lucy and i i i can't see how paul can be read in any other way
26:28
then speaking of a synergistic righteousness
26:32
on their part
26:33
that's
26:34
the new perspective even as tom announces that by don't see how
26:38
it closes the door on that synergism in in fact
26:41
maybe one of the things we can bring up a disgrace to explain what you mean by
26:45
synergistic what i mean by that is uh... as as i see or what the jews were saying
26:51
and as i see polls concern it's not jobs and i and the thing i appreciate it
26:55
appreciate about what uh... tom wright as saying it is
26:58
there is clearly a national and ethnic
27:01
aspect
27:02
to their concerns but i don't think it's just that's
27:06
because a person who would for example limit god's blessings
27:09
to just are ethnic group
27:11
that doesn't speak well of their entire moral character
27:14
and clearly when we read matthew will read all the poll says
27:17
there was and ethical and moral aspect to what the jews were saying as well
27:22
and so the the kind of law keeping that they were doing
27:28
partook of both of these aspects enhanced the
27:31
the meritorious standing before god comes from their fulfilment of these
27:35
things is both ethical and moral
27:38
and i don't know how the new perspective or at least let's we believe that firm
27:42
on his side
27:43
howell thomas position in light of this statement
27:46
that the final verdict just occasion the based upon the life live
27:50
how it can close the door on that
27:52
cooperation where you have a mixture of god's gracious uh... extension of the
27:58
covenants and bring people into the coming graciously and all those things
28:02
bc the issue the reformation
28:04
was not the necessity of grace
28:06
and the council trent
28:07
condemned anyone who said that you can be saved apart from god's grace the
28:10
issue the reformation has never been
28:13
the necessity of grace
28:14
the issue the reformation has always been the sufficiency
28:18
of grace
28:19
and that's really where the issue is the discomfort exists
28:22
shall we say
28:23
ip also by the way i just got a mention this and i'll just throw it out there
28:26
'cause we're gonna it later
28:28
also the issue of grounds touches on the issue of imputation invitation has to be
28:33
discussed will delay dot we we will talk about imputation
28:36
week right now gonna go to a breaking story time for a passport earlier on on
28:39
them will let tom respond to some of james's concerns there
28:43
week talking about simple on what he really said about justification mike
28:48
special guest with mean steiger today is professor anti rightists home as he's
28:53
also nine tom right research professor of new testament and early christianity
28:57
uh... v_h_s_ at saint andrews university ortho of many many books and of course
29:03
this issue has been one that he's written on few times well james white
29:07
director of alpha anamika ministries is on the line from the states and we
29:10
getting uh... that conversation on this whole area of what pull really meant
29:15
about justification comeback in a couple of minutes time
29:18
and will be continuing
29:21
welcome back to unbelievable with me justin brierley back into our discussion
29:24
between anti right
29:26
and james white in just a moment stand
29:28
this quick reminder that that you can now register your interest to attend
29:32
unbelievable the conference twenty thirteen
29:34
jesus liar lunatic legend
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or lord
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happening on saturday the twenty fifth of night
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just visit the website premier talktalk dot u_k_ slash jesus and you can read
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your email address with s you'll get in return for full details of the
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conference what the seminars are he's going to be speaking about what and of
29:53
course you'll be the first and i want you can finalize your booking premiered
29:57
talktalk dot u_k_ slash jesus is the place to go we're going to be joined by

Mr_Anony2:

NT Wright vs. James White - St. Paul & Justification - Unbelievable?

The above is a rather long discussion however, it is something I would like you to look into and hopefully we can discuss in depth at some point.

The discussion is open for everyone else who wants to join in (it is not limited to Goshen). I am not particularly taking sides on this one but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

God bless y'all

@Mr_Anony2

What exactly do you want to look into and what hopefully do you want in depth discuss about.

Which parts in the almost a hour and half discussion do you want to talk about?

The participants are all traveling on the same train but in different carriages (e.g. first class, carriage hallway, quiet carriage or the other carriage where one who doesn't want to be quiet sits in) Also some are traveling facing the direction of travel only, some are traveling backing the direction of travel only and some are traveling taking in the whole scenery ...

I think Tom was wary and wasn't explicit enough.

There were elements of cold feet without getting the feet wet or stepping into deep waters as it were by some of the other participants

JeSoul:

This topic is for Christians Please, thanks.

The following is based on a sermon recently preached by my awesome pastor.

The message convicted me on many levels and I hope it blesses someone .

---

Matthew 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Before ascending into heaven, Jesus charged us His followers with the Great Commission - to go out, fish for men and make disciples out of them. We are fishers of men but what kind of fisherman are you? Imagine a bright sunny day at the waterfront....

The Accidental Fisherman
He sits reclined on a beach chair with a sun hat over his face as he snoozes with his feet in the sand. He has an unattended fishing pole parked in the water over at the docks. At the end of the day he will walk over to it (if he remembers) and check to see if he caught any fish. Depending on the type & size (of the fish) and distance to his car, he may simply decide its too much trouble to take home and simply throw it back in the water.

The Casual Fisherman
He is bit more purposeful about his fishing. He sits with his fishing pole at the docks and attaches bait to his hook. He is reading a book but will turn to the pole should he feel a tug and reel in the catch. Re-attach more bait to the hook, let down the line into the water and return to his book. At the end of the day he may go home with a couple of fish.

The Recreational Fisherman
This fella takes his fishing more seriously. He is not on the docks, he has a small boat with which he goes out on the water. He has several sophisticated fishing poles of different sizes & brands, each for catching different kinds of fishes and they are mounted on his vessel and has buckets-full of different kinds of bait he uses to attract his prey. He typically catches tens of fish everyday.

The Commercial Fisherman
Now this man is a true artisan at the craft of fishing, a dedicated professional. He owns a large, high powered commercial fishing vessel equipped with all kinds of fishing gear & tools from hooks to trawls, to nets to harpoons. He is dressed in boots, gloves and water-proof gear as he works his traps efficiently. He even recruits & hires several extra skilled hands to work his boat. He has mastered the craft of fishing for very large quantities of varieties of fish and constantly looks for ways to improve his methods. He is the gold standard and reels in thousands and thousands of different kinds of fish everyday.

So Christian, what kind of fisherman are you?

TV01:

Why are people meandering around this topic?

Giving people like the OP and others leave to continually promulgate this error.

Will someone not simply spell it out?

Preach the gospel if you will, but what's with these protracted discussions?

Nansense!

@TV01

What is the gospel eh?

Isn't it about acceptance or love?

Is it not that God loves or accepts the gay, the lesbian etc but hates or rejects the perversion?

Isn't that the good news to the gay, the lesbian etc which we preached in preceded or earlier postings?

We are called to be fishers of men and that is no accidental of choice of words

God knows that it isn't easy catching a fish talkless fishes

It requires patience, stillness, perseverance, long hours, good baiting, good rod with adequate reeling line, preparedness, catching net, concentration etc

One doesn't skin fishes alive except for that it's dead

Shout from rooftops, the good news that God loves or accepts the gay, the lesbian etc

and they should come to the LORD just the way they are,

however also inform that God hates or rejects the perversion or abnormal sex lifestyle which they NEED or have to be DEAD to, in order to remain loved or accepted by Him and be in His good & perfect will.

https://www.nairaland.com/1197395/biblical-interpretations-homosexuality/1#14440533

obadiah777:

I WOULDA PUT YOU DOWN FOR A YORUBA PERSON. YOU HAVE A YORUBA VIBE ABOUT YOU

@obadiah777
@frosbel

This is true and I confess I too, if asked would've put him down to a Yoruba.

He's got this Yoruba-Yoruba in a good way though vibe about him.

Fair play to you frosbel

PS: I forgot to add although I had been meaning to mention it for a while

I initially thought frosbel was an Indian/Pakistani

I used to wonder why or how come this Indian/Pakistani is virally posting on NL

Also wondered how did this Indian/Pakistani get to know or stumble on to NL?

seyibrown:

@ wiegraf's

Your signature: 'Serious question here creationists, if God made humans from mud then why is mud still here?'

Answer : Mud is still here because he didn't use up ALL the mud in creating Adam

More answers welcome ... and more questions welcome.

@seyibrown

@ wiegraf

Mud is still here because God used a recyclable

TV01:

Why are people meandering around this topic?

Giving people like the OP and others leave to continually promulgate this error.

Will someone not simply spell it out?

Preach the gospel if you will, but what's with these protracted discussions?

Nansense!

@TV01

What is the gospel eh?

Isn't it about acceptance or love?

Is it not that God loves or accepts the gay, the lesbian etc but hates or rejects the perversion?

Isn't that the good news to the gay, the lesbian etc which we preached in preceded or earlier postings?

We are called to be fishers of men and that is no accidental of choice of words

God knows that it isn't easy catching a fish talkless fishes

It requires patience, stillness, perseverance, long hours, good baiting, good rod with adequate reeling line, preparedness, catching net, concentration etc

One doesn't skin fishes alive except for that it's dead

Shout from rooftops, the good news that God loves or accepts the gay, the lesbian etc

and they should come to the LORD just the way they are,

however also inform that God hates or rejects the perversion or abnormal sex lifestyle which they NEED or have to be DEAD to, in order to remain loved or accepted by Him and be in His good & perfect will.

Goshen360:

^ Well said sister. Perspective is everything on the basis for which we act in whatever way we choose to act.

I don't know how to respond in details but I'll make out time to respond and respond very well.

Maybe later though - I need to get on some other assignment. I'll send you a PM, okay.

Hmmm, I can now understand where WAM is coming from and think I know what the gripe is all about

There is this thing concerning the misinterpretation or misrepresentation of "the anointing" and "the presence of God"

"The anointing" is empowerment for service or purpose

"The presence of God" is experiencing the profound communion or fellowship of God

The latter is what WAM encountered in the car listening to Kirk Franklin, an intense mental or spiritual connection with/to God

The former however is about endowing with power, giftings, equipping with skills, supplying with a talent or quality etc for services to accomplish/carry out God's purpose.

They are not necessarily interchangeable and it is a misconception where they are deemed to be the same thing.

# By the way, no one is fighting battles for God. God is more than capable without assistance or help to look after Himself.

# I wish I was informed, told earlier or forewarned of hanky pankies that are now the norm, resident and endemic in church

Goshen360:

^^^ Thank you brother. And we must present ourselves ready as the church (bride) without spot or wrinkle. God bless you brother.

@Goshen360

One of the spots is actually this "Falling Under Anointing - Hoax, Real Or Hypnosis" thingy which you've brilliantly just posted about

It is, as a matter of fact a relic of unquestioned pass downs practice or traditions that needs jettisoned

These public display, playing to the gallery falling under anointing palaver where the power of God is lacking from the so called anointing fallen under. Pfft.

waleadex:

I was having a discussion with a friend and we shared so many views as muslim and christian.
In my own opinion,I think real muslims will not want to pick up bank jobs because of solats I.e 2pm,4pm and sometimes 7pm prayers.
My christian friend jokingly said banks avoid to emply them for the fear of 'BH BOMBS'
On a serious note,in your view what is the cause?
Thanks.

Omexonomy:

Most bankers i know are muslim and anybody who is interested in banking job wether xtian or muslim might get it.

^{Governor of the Central Bank of Nigeria}

Birth and education
Sanusi was born on July 31, 1961.

His father was a Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the 1960s and his grandfather was Emir of Kano and Islamic Scholar, Alhaji Muhammadu Sanusi. Sanusi graduated from King's College Lagos in 1977 and studied at Ahmadu Bello University (ABU), Zaria earning a BSc in Economics in 1981. He then taught economics at ABU from 1983 to 1985.

He also obtained a degree in Islamic law from International University of Africa, Khartoum.


Banking career
In 1985 Sanusi joined Icon Limited (Merchant Bankers), a subsidiary of Morgan Guaranty Trust Bank of New York, and Baring Brothers of London.

He moved to the United Bank for Africa in 1997 in the Credit and Risk Management Division, rising to the position of a General Manager.

In September 2005, he joined the Board of First Bank of Nigeria as an Executive Director in charge of Risk and Management Control, and was appointed Group Managing Director (CEO) in January 2009. He was also the Chairman, Kakawa Discount House and sat on the Board of FBN Bank (UK) Limited.

Sanusi is recognized in the banking industry for his contribution towards developing a Risk Management culture in the Nigerian banking sector. First Bank is Nigeria's oldest bank and one of the biggest financial institutions in Africa.

Sanusi was the first Northerner to be appointed CEO in First Bank's history of more than a century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanusi_Lamido_Sanusi

@^^^^

Too many relics, excess baggage, too many false theological issues that need to be cast overboard

because Christ is soon coming and is expecting nothing less than a spotless bride.

He is coming back for a church without spot or wrinkle

WAP:

I am wondering if the Bible ever says 'Let's the poor says I am rich'

as we always mis-quote Joel 3:10. ''Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong'.

We add this phrase to Joel 3:10 when our prosperity emphasized Preachers want to get something from us.

Don Moen only added this to his song, but this is never written anywhere in the Bible.

What is our view on this?

Joagbaje:

Don Moran didn't say its from the bible I'm not aware anyone claim its written in bible . But the principles are there

i.chuka:

So what's your point, are you saying Christains are not surppose to be rich?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkcaJfRHyc

@WAP

@Joagbaje

@i.chuka

WAP, Good catch and well spotted. The Bible never says or said "Let's the poor says I am rich"

God have mercy on souls, if mega-pastors such as him here cannot correctly quote the bible

Fabrication at work from 0:50 - 0:55,

Hear him deliberately adding a false verse and insult-upon-injury attributing it to the bible.

Joagbaje, you are right that Don Moen didn't say the phrase is from the bible

but Pastor Brian Houston thinks otherwise and is telling his congregation and the whole wide world the phrase is in the bible

Pastor Brian Houston just claimed in the video clip that the "Let's the poor say I am rich" phrase is scriptural and is in the bible

i.chuka, the point is about doing a Berean due diligence and not necessarily to take all the pastors preaches or says as gospel without verifying or confirming

To be forewarned of misleading preachers is to be forearmed to safeguard your soul

@Goshen360

Thank you for the post

In summary:one law operates with flesh & the other with spirit

It is sarcasm too deployed when he was parroting and repeating them saying "women should be silent in the church! etc etc. What!?"

richmans:

My man i cant just say this is what i like or do best pls explian further

It has nothing to do with you. It is not about you.

It is not about what you like or what you do best. It's got nothing to do with you.

It is about the desire of the Sire.

It is about Thy will be done - The will of the Father

richmans: Calavary greetings to my fellow in christ,please i need ur help on how i can no my talent,pls i will be waiting for your reply

seyibrown:

What do you love doing? What do you do best? Pointers.

Your talent does not neccesarily tie in with "what you love doing" or "what you love doing best"

Your talent, the right talent aligns with the purpose God positioned you on earth for such which time.

What burden has the Lord placed in/on your heart? From there you'll know your purpose, know your assigment etc

- Moses at first, didn't love meeting Pharaoh because of a speech impairdiment

- Jonah too, didn't at first love going to Nineveh

It is worth noting though that the 1, 2 and 5 talents in the parable of talents was actually money and not giftings. The message or teaching is still the same even if perceived as money or giftings though

Pharaohs and Roman soldiers as in above photo wore kilt before the Scots

Image123:

i think i might need a men bra, i am liking this free lance interpreters.

@Image123

Unless you already have moobs, be careful what you wish for, for you may get it.

HumbledbYGrace: just that the way its done @ my church makes me wonder. There are reciepts that are given out after tithing. And I don't do it monthly or let me say I don't give out the same amount of tithe every month. It depends on how much Iam given @ home, sometimes I get nothing, they just buy stuff for me and don't give me money. So Iam saying when I have nothing I feel rather stupid, I feel like Iam not doing right because we are told to 'give so that it will be given to us.'

Another thing that's eating me here is; (hope Iam not derailing the thread) I grew up in this country but moved to south Africa when I started secondary school, I moved back here just three years back to my mom's place which got sold last year in jan so I had to move in with my aunt. Since I got back from S.A I attended the nearest church, just few yards from home and as I moved in with my aunt I still went to that church though it is very far. I need transport everyday and there is no born again church where my aunt stays, its catholics, parish etc. So @ times I don't go to church coz of money but I always get long faces @ church, even wen I explain to them ma situation its the same!

@HumbledbYGrace

Hmm. Tithing is a touchy & delicate issue.

What you have on your lap is a turkey and eagle issue as in carnal mindedness or spirit mindedness

The flesh will leave you grounded like a turkey, the spirit however will elevate you flying & soaring like an eagle

The thread is not getting derailed at all. Don't you worry

Bro Goshen360 will be more than pleased to explain to you how you can be freed of this religious burden of guilt or religious bondage of shame.

HumbledbYGrace:

some of us are not financialy boyant

@HumbledbYGrace

Try and help with giving proper details & full information for tackling this matter you raised now

How do you mean "some of us are not financially buoyant" and what is it's connection with this tithe thing is ruining your life?

HumbledbYGrace:
Are we only blessed when we pay tithe This tithe thing is ruining my life

@HumbledbYGrace
How do you mean ruining your life?

@Goshen360
Wow. These are good and loaded stuff. May you continue to fill in the garment of the Spirit

JeSoul:

*cough cough* erhm...broda Gosh, make I troway one small wrench for your statement above:

small copy & paste job:
Psa 5:4-6
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalm 5:5,
The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Lev. 20:23
Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.

Prov. 6:16-19
There are six things which the Lord hates , yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15
All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.

Image123:

ewooooooooooooooooooooo.

G, dont mind Image123 jaare, unashamed agbalagbi+agbalagba for that matter

J, You're my homie as much as G is but *cough cough* erm too

Its not like am dropping a fly in your ointment ooo

however I don't suppose you actually or really hate your father and mother, your hubby and kid, brothers and sisters - yes, even your own life? (i.e. Luke 14:26)

Well, G is right as in love/accept the sinner, but hate/reject the sin

Remember the "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." - Romans 9:13 NIV verse

There are some indigenous naija words too when translated into english loses its meaning and/or intent partially, if the real import is not lost altogether or completely

MAYOWAAK:

General Evangelist of the Christ Apostolic Church, Prophet Kayode Abiara, says controversies surrounding the ownership of aircraft by prominent Christian clerics in the country are not justified.

“If I am given an aircraft as a gift, I cannot reject it,” Abiara said while speaking on the church’s planned prayer session billed for Odo Owa,Kwara State on Wed-Friday next week .

According to him, those who have been criticising the purported extravagant lifestyle of some Christian leaders in the country do not quite understand the scriptures.

He said, “Christians need to understand that the scripture supports receiving gifts. Having a jet or a helicopter, for example, will greatly advance the work of God. It is good for christendom.”

The prophet, who said the controversy in the CAN had been exaggerated, called on the Catholic Church to embrace dialogue because of its importance to the association.

He rose to the defence of CAN leadership, saying it was not true that it had become “too friendly” with the government.

Abiara said, “As Christian leaders, we do our duty by giving advice to the government whenever we can. That does not mean CAN has become an arm of government.

“Because we do not say something bad about the government all the time does not mean we are compromised in any way. I do not collect any money from any government official.”

http://www.punchng.com/news/i-cannot-reject-aircraft-gift-abiara/

I dey laugh OBJ style

What good is it for a prophet/pastor man to gain aircraft(s) the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

For what is a prophet/pastor man profited, if he shall gain aircraft(s) the whole world, and lose his own soul?

or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?