₦airaland Forum

vooks:
This is shocking
http://www.odan.org/tw_how_opus_dei_is_cult_like.htm

italo:
You want an Opus Dei member to respond to all those allegations at the same time...or to tell you something like "it's all lies" or "it's all true"...or "it's partially true and partially false?"

If someone cast all those allegations on your family at the same time, how would you respond?

When I earlier read all what the albino was up to in the Da Vinci Code book and later watched him in the movie version
used to think to myself, there is far to much smoke here to be ignored
but the below weblink put out some education and allayed my suspicions
http://opusdei.org.au/en-au/article/the-da-vinci-code-the-catholic-church-and-opus-dei/

Ubenedictus too has actually tried to temper the Opus Dei misconception with the below link
https://www.nairaland.com/2387888/current-former-opus-dei-here#34930419

Ubenedictus:
that is what I call spiritualising away the plain meaning of scripture.

They are alledging to see metaphor where there is non.

It is a beautiful tactic used in manipulating people and render discussions useless. Jesus says be born of water and the spirit, the apostles were baptising with water, but the new Christians are happy to spiritualise away the plain meaning and tell us it is "baptism by word".

Christians need to spiritualise because man is a spirit being
that is the destination we are heading to and end up at.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Barnabaseloka:
It amazes me how you have concluded that anywhere one sees water in the bible, it means physical water. The passages you quoted are undoubtedly talking of 'physical' water.

Muttleylaff was trying to make you understand that it was not everywhere water was written in the bible that it meant physical water. That was why he quoted John 7:38.

Bur, let us take a look at John 4:13-14 before John 7:37-39.
13. Jesus answered and said to her, Whoever drinks of this water (physical water from the well) will thirst again.
14. But whoever drinks of the water (spiritual water) that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. To you, was Jesus talking about giving people physical water? Let us see the meaning of the 'water' that Jesus talked about.
John 7:37-39
37. ....... If anyone thirsts, let him come and drink.
38. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
39. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT, whom those believing in Him would receive, for the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
We can see clearly here that 'water' spoken of signified the Holy Spirit and not physical water.

John 3:5 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jesus was explaining the 'means or instruments' by which one will be born again.
1 Pet.1:23 Being BORN AGAIN not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, BY (through) the WORD of GOD which lives and abides forever.

It is only through water (the WORD of GOD) and the Holy Spirit that one becomes BORN AGAIN. No one becomes born again through physical water b/c to be born again is a spiritual affair, leading to eternal life. It happens spiritually through the WORD of GOD (water) that one hears and believes and through the Holy Spirit. Both the WORD of GOD (water) and the Holy Spirit are involved in the cleansing and in the regenerating work in one's life.

Word up brother and enough said.
The italo and Ubenedictus-Syncan backup gang are hard in hearing,
they are so set in their ways and thinking, that if the truth breathes down their neck they wont smell it, talkless see it

I have noticed that God usually allows things to happen (e.g. the literal water baptism, tithing etc) until when the real deal turns up.
The new renders the old obsolete, but understandably die-hards will stick to the old and God doesnt mind that.
What God has blessed no man can curse, and neither am I.
I have nowhere cursed water baptism but have only pointed out that there is a powerful and stronger baptism than physical or literal water

Left to such as these ones, we wont be flying in planes
because they'll be bawling against the law of aeromodynamics, pushing for the law of gravity

I have always maintained that:
#1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things)
#2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.
#3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved

Like the Far-to-see aka Pharisee they dont realise that the truth will set them free, but first it will piss them off
Though it isnt, the truth can seem scary sometimes,
which is why, likes of Syncan particularly go on hissy fits, and become unnecessarily exasperated

Syncan:
bla bla bla bla, Your rants does not solve any of you heresy.
Before you blow yourself open, Pls what type of water are in those passages of baptism as posted by me?

Excuse my language
but you've probably guessed that I dont give a Foxtrot-Uniform-Charlie-Kilo about what type of water are in those passages,
as my stance on water baptism is no secret.
Do it, if you're compelled or feel the need to
but if you dont, please do not lose sleep over it. It isnt a do-or-die fanaticism

I just love it when people pull out the heresy card and play it
Something must have rattled and got them fidgety to do that

Nota bene, I am very particular and more concerned about John 3:5 and John 7:8
Do you agree both verses havev nothing whatsoever to dfo with physical or literal water

Syncan:
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and
of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Jn.3:5

I have read someone saying Jesus did not mean water, this is a strange teaching even to the understanding of the apostles. Or how else will someone explain the waters of the following baptism passages?

1. Water found on the way, in Acts 8: 36. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

2. Water still called for by peter even after their receiving the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

3. Water associated with river, in Acts 16:13-15. And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted .... And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira...And when she was baptized, and her household....

4. Water used for washing, in Acts 16:46 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

And to think "Christians" did not rebuke him, but everyone was busy attacking Italo, who alone pointed this out is alarming. Or do you all agree it wasn't water in those passages too

Still baffles me how others just jump both feet in to this thread.
This has been a civil and mature back and forth so far, but someone thinks "everyone has been busy attacking Italo"

If pushed and continually shoved like this, I can blow wide open this water baptism thing
How were all those baptisms carried?
Were they full baptism as in full immersion in water or not?
How were each or individual water baptisms carried out by the Apostles done?
On the day of pentecost that 3000 were baptised, where, which place and how was this done?
Considering the time of day, how long did it take to baptise those 3000?

Jesus did not mean physical or literal water in John 3:5, just He did not mean the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is not physical or literal water

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

esere826:
This is part of what I think, ..a rough hypothesis perhaps

After the fall of Adam, his family began to seek for wholeness/protection and scheme for it
salvation to his kids was construed as the the desire for God to grant them good 'harvest' and protect the fruits of their labour

Adam and his wife had also told their kids what happened in Eden
they told them how things were very easy before they fell
they also told them that God had said that a seed of theirs would defeat Satan and restore mankind to his lost glory

Cain and Abel felt that they could be the seed that God was speaking about and so wanted to attract God to choose them
this also meant salvation to them

This lead them to making sacrifices to God
After that Sacrifice recorded in the Torah,
Cain was rejected while Abel was accepted <there is a logical gap here: was after the sacrifice the first time God spoke to them?>
Cain was upset and jealous, so he killed Abel
Everything, every essence of Abel was in agony and revolt.
It could not believe that his hope for being the chosen one had being quashed by Cain
hence God said, "the blood of your brother Abel cries out for vengeance"

As men began to multiply, they also took with them this understanding of a time long gone when everything was perfect
Great grand pa Adam and Eve were around for a long time to tell them the stories of Eden

Each person or most people wanted Gods salvation for the short term and sometimes for the long term
the short term salvation were for God to grant Eden like grace, success and protection to their labour and being
the long term salvation aspiration was that either they or their lineage be the chosen one to birth the seed that will restore Eden



...tbc someday in the future

I have bolded a few of your post
For example
#1 "they also told them that God had said that a seed of theirs would defeat Satan and restore mankind to his lost glory"
#2 Cain
#3 Abel
#4 the long term salvation
#5 chosen one to birth the seed that will restore Eden

You obviously know the meaning behind the name Cain, and the name Abel
Eve unwittingly named the second child, Abel, a brush-off name, unbeknownst that she is making a prophecy correctly stating what will happen and come to pass in the future
She half got right everything about the first child and his name.
Afterall, he is a man but he was not the man, not the seed promised nor the one she was to expect

esere826:
please expand on this view of yours

I love Kei144,
and I love his zeal about God etc but it is his rhetoric and purple prose posts I cant stand
You cant help or influence others that way, you only alienate or disinterest them with it

It was Kei144 in relation to SALVATION who first posted the below:
...Mankind believed this word and put it to practice. The practice initiated mankind into the kingdom of Satan.
Before long, all mankind became Satan worshipers and the kingdom of Satan interacted very closely with mankind. Succeeding generation of mankind entered into separate covenants with spirit beings in the kingdom of Satan. All those covenants with Satan's kingdom form the ancestral covenants hanging over every human being.
The covenants simply mean that these human beings are Satan's possession--Satan' slaves. Salvation is total freedom from Satan's slavery.
And unless there is total freedom, a human being cannot fully belong to God; which means that fullness of glory cannot be restored.
https://www.nairaland.com/2389227/meaning-salvation#34905764

The meaning of salavation is quite simple but notice how Kei144 overcomplicates it with the above and its bolded

Kei144:
What exactly is the meaning of salvation, in Christianity? I will present my understanding here.

Jn. 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Ro. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

In Jn. 17:5, Jesus takes the position of Adam (mankind). Mankind had glory with God before the world began. When is "before the world began"? It is when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of God. The world began the day God kicked mankind out of His garden. Mankind became separated from God, hence the loss of glory.

We all know why God kicked mankind out of His presence. Mankind collected a certain fruit from Satan and ate it. The fruit is Satan's word or knowledge (of good and evil). See Deut. 8:3, Mt. 4:4. Mankind believed this word and put it to practice. The practice initiated mankind into the kingdom of Satan. Before long, all mankind became Satan worshipers and the kingdom of Satan interacted very closely with mankind. Succeeding generation of mankind entered into separate covenants with spirit beings in the kingdom of Satan. All those covenants with Satan's kingdom form the ancestral covenants hanging over every human being.
The covenants simply mean that these human beings are Satan's possession--Satan' slaves. Salvation is total freedom from Satan's slavery.
And unless there is total freedom, a human being cannot fully belong to God; which means that fullness of glory cannot be restored.

Ro. 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Salvation IS NOT total freedom from Satan's slavery, but Redemption IS total freedom from Satan's slavery
a redeemed human being can fully belong to God

Jesus redeems us so we can have salvation

In layman's terms, salvation is being saved from imminent destruction
Salvation, simply, is getting protected from destruction
or getting delivered from some extremely serious and not-good-at-all situation

2 Corinthians 6:2
For God says, "At just the right time, I heard you.
On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now.
Today is the day of salvation.

OLAADEGBU:
God does not murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. God kills just as He has given the authority to human governments to exact capital punishments. Those who perished in Noah's Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah are examples where executed people according to His Law.

Glad to read you know or acknowledge that God doesnt murder

OLAADEGBU:
The text did not say God killed in the first place and it is your duty to find out the facts.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Proverbs 25:2).

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
So why did you post "Why did God KILL 42 lads merely for saying Elisha was bald?"
You're even using one of my favourite verse (i.e. Proverbs 25:2)

Thank you for admiting "kill" is not found in 2 Kings 2:23-24
Thank you for being man enough to admit you inserted "kill" yourself into 2 Kings 2:23-24
So it's true you used a little poetic licence to embellish a good tale by adding the "kill" extra detail
Baba ooo!

italo:
"Hydatos" is always water.

"Hydatos" is water and more

italo:
Show me one place that hydatos was translated as Holy Spirit or Word?

I am ahead of you.
I have earlier provided and hinted you the place where hydatos was used as an allegory or figure for the word of God
Look up https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-water-baptism/4#34885168

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

italo:
You mean Jesus was saying "except a man is born of hydatos-spirit and spirit...?"

You eventually are coming round to the truth
Yes, Jesus said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water (i.e. hydatos) and the Spirit.
Hydatos is an allegro or symbol for the word of God
Remember, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God?
Without faith in the word of God, it's impossible to enter the kingdom of God

italo:
That's another rubbish!

You post and print more genuine rubbish

Barnabaseloka:

Go and read all these posts you referred to and you will understand what I have written. You are the one that said that what the apostles wrote were wrongly written. I never said so. I learn from others and balance what I hear or say with other passages of the scriptures. Anyone who has read my posts will easily understand it. But you have taken it upon yourself not to undestand them, but to make quick conclusions that you know contradict other passages of the scriptures.

You failed to write expressely what happens to a person when he repents and believes in Christ Jesus, before baptism. What about those who received the Holy Spirit before water baptism- were they not saved? Will the Holy Spirit live inside one whose sins have not been washed away or remitted?

Learn from others but compare scripture with scripture to balance your understanding. People will keep living in error if they pick one or two passages that might not have correlated with other passages and interpret them as they are. This is why we need balancing them for proper understanding.

You dey mind am, right now am now just looking and laughing
It such that say you need to come to them for a direct physical ritual touch before you can get your healing

Various symbols in the Bible are used to represent the word of God and/or the Holy Spirit
Water (e.g. "hydatos", "huetos" etc) as a figure of the Holy Spiritand word of God both in terms of its cleansing properties and as a source of power is one example
but italo et al wont have none of that

so very soon expect italo to say the same "hydatos" in John 7:38 is physical or literal water

John 7:38
Anyone who believes in me may come and drink!
For the Scriptures declare, 'Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.'"

italo:
You tried to tell me that the "water" in John 3:5 was not literal water, citing the original Greek word used.
I showed you that the original Greek word "hydatos" was the same one used for literal water at Jesus' baptism Mark 1:10 And the literal water that was changed to wine (John 2:7).

That's how you abandoned the Bible-based discussion and resorted to cartoons drawn by heretics like you.

Did not try but pointed out that water in that verse is used as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word
I can show countless use of "hydatos" as a symbol of God's Holy Spirit and His word.
It is not always literal or physical water

italo:
You tried to tell me that the "water" in John 3:5 was not literal water, citing the original Greek word used. I showed you that the original Greek word "hydatos" was the same one used for literal water at Jesus' baptism Mark 1:10 And the literal water that was changed to wine (John 2:7).

That's how you abandoned the Bible-based discussion and resorted to cartoons drawn by heretics like you.

Cardinal, I didnt want to prolong a situation where someone is set in their thinking or ways, and have their heels dug in.

I have always maintained that:
#1 Baptisms is about immersion but it is not an exclusive use for water baptism alone (i.e. people get immersed in a countless of other things)
#2 We get baptised or immersed to make holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God’s word.
#3 Water is often used as an allegory or symbolism for God's word, which is through which all are saved

Dont know why you go down the heretic route, as I havent objected to water baptism
Have only and always maintained that it is not necessary and the ritual shouldnt be forced
We now live in the spirit and grace dispensation
but if anyone wants to live the hard and old way, they are free to,
only do not like the Pharisees lay burdens on others, do not keep bound others, who ought to be set free

Finally, a picture speaks a thousand words.
Cartoons are worth thousand words, they are capable of telling stories and making points just as well as large amount of posted text

cc OLAADEGBU, Scholar8200, Ubenedictus, Kei144, Esere826, Goshen360, italo, Barnabaseloka
https://s23.postimg.org/hpmn4w4rv/eskimodesert.jpg
How long is a water baptism piece of string?
Where or when is the water baptism line drawn?

Ubenedictus:
Nothing pains my heart more than when Christians try to spiritualise away the plain meaning of scripture

Christians need to spiritualise because man is a spirit being
that is the destination we are heading to and end up at.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

Ubenedictus:
Scriptures say repent and be baptised for the remission of sins, right there in the new testament but somebody is saying baptism is an expired product. Comeone if you want to follow the bible follow it, if not just tell us you are repeated what your pastor told you so everybody can relax.

Man up and say specifically what the New Testament says what one is to be baptised with
Say what John the Baptist said He who is powerful and stronger than him will baptise us with

Also tell if its only water that immersion (i.e. baptism) is associated with

Also confirm if there is more than one Pastor than Jesus, our Pastor.
Show in the bible were there is pastor (i.e. pastor without a "s" extension as in not plural) is in the Bible

I am willing to be corrected but I am yet to know of any mainstream or local indigenious "pastor" who preaches or teaches against ritual water baptism, so you saying "repeated what your pastor told you so everybody can relax" is non sequitur.

esere826:
Fortunately for me, I am not a hell doctrine expert
at least not yet, so I cant answer this

I'm gonna deviate a little into a wider concept

I'll first say this, I have gently tried to encourage Olaadegbu and Frosbel who happen to be bible scholars to help research and bring to the fore discussion on what SAVE meant during bible times and the early days of the church .not what we presently understand it as which is being saved from hell.

By present beliefs on the concept of SAVE suggests that folks who never heard of Christ whether they did good or not might have been saved at one point or another. This is of course outside the concept of the doctrine of hell which I know little about.

I believe that when Adam would have used the word SAVE, he probably wasnt thinking of hell
I also believe that when many in the old testament times talked about save, they had something else in mind

Everyone whether they like it or not, ends up in Sheol
Note I deliberately sidestepped and didnt use hell
Inquiring minds would want to know which part of Sheol they'll end up at

Barnabaseloka:
Forgive me for bro.
I was only trying to explain what Joel meant in his prophecy b/c of what you wrote. I am deeply sorry for the offence committed.

What exactly did I write, that made you jump in both feet first.

Barnabaseloka:
Water baptism is for ONLY those-child or adult- who acknowledges that he is a sinner, repents from his sins and believes in Jesus Christ. it a PERSONAL decision that one takes for himself and not by parents or friends or relatives.
When I say 'child' I mean those that can discern good and evil.
Children also believe and accept Jesus at their tender ages so long as they understand what 'repentance' and 'forsaking of sins' are all about.

The 'all people' you quoted in Joel talks about 'all believers' in Christ.
Those who have not believed in Christ do not have God's Spirit in them, so they are exempted from the words 'all people.'

Why are you taking panasharp for another man's toothache?
This post which you replied to, wasnt for you but was for italo after he asked, saying:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,
Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

Barnabaseloka, people get immersed (i.e. baptised) with different and all sort of things
People often get immersed in books at exam times
People immerse themselves in one pastime or the other like history of World War I etc
Likewise God can immerse (i.e. baptise) anyone, as in child, adult or old fogies with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Barnabaseloka, baptism is not an exclusive use only for water baptism, baptism (i.e. immersion) is used for other contexts.

You do know what the Holy Spirit and Fire does?
You do know what anointing is and the essense of anointing?

Jeremiah was consecrated and appointed to be a prophet to the nations before he was born
John the Baptist was filled (i.e. immersed) with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb.
Mary was believed to be between 12-14 years when she was impregnated with Jesus
David was believed to be between 12-16 years when anointed for kingship

Joel's prophecy repeated in Acts 2:17 was deliberately provided to italo

esere826:
@italo

I just now read an earlier post you wrote which answers the question I raised above^^
I don't completely agree with you, but accept that you are have the rights to your beliefs
My belief is that at the point you accept Jesus, you are given a new life (baptised into Christ)
I believe that acceptance is primarily in the heart, but is commonly intertwined with various kinds of physical demonstrations such as

(1) water baptism (whether by immersion or sprinkling),
(2) confession with your mouth or
(3) other symbolisms (for example, if one is dumb, muttering or shedding tears might be that conscious acceptance link into the new birth)

I earlier alluded to similar with the below repost

Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing, it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.

Am more concerned with people such as kei144 trying to twist John 3:5 has having to do with physical or literal water baptism, which obviously it doesn't.
https://www.nairaland.com/2383797/saved-faith-baptism/1#34854769

esere826:
fair enough. I'll work with your belief. Now back to your verses which were:

(1)Act22:16 And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’

(2) "Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)

Looking at both verses it seems to indicate a process
baptise>> sins washed away >> then Holy Spirit gift received

I guess we all agree with this process. the challenge we all have is agreeing to what constitutes baptism

the original tradition seemed to indicate that water baptism was done inside water. I'm sure you and I both agree with this
Baptists and those after them believe that water baptism involves being dipped into water, while Catholics and some others believe that sprinkling of water over the head will suffice.

Now, let's push this further but carefully
when in a desert, with a bottle of water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person can be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

when in a desert, with no water
- The Catholic approach suggests that a person cannot be baptised
- the Baptist approach suggests that a person cannot be baptized

Now, if for any reason it is true that water baptism is the start of the process for the remission of sin
then, he who is stuck in the desert and wants Jesus is on his own.... abi, is saliva also accepted in place of water?


After you've spared some thought on this, and given your view, I might push it further to shed some light on water baptism

italo expects the Eskimo in Russia Siberia or Alaska Arctic to perform water baptism
He expects the Arab in Sahara Desert or Kalahari Desert to perform water baptism

John 4:23-24
²³But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth.
The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way.
²⁴For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Ritual washings with physical or literal water is having old-fashioned values or sticking to old ways, Law
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and Fire is having stronger or powerful values, switching to new ways, Grace

italo:
@muttleylaff and scholar8200

1Pet3:20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Which baptism does the saving of the eight through water prefigure?

Water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism?

Are you really not familiar or conversant with allegories for the word of God and Spirit of God that refreshes and keeps one alive?
Was it a case of the eight immersed in water that saved them
Or was it a case of they immersed themselves in the the word of God and Spirit of God which saved them?

italo:
@ Muttleylaff and scholar8200,

Can a child be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire?

God is not a respecter of persons
Anybody regardless of sex, age or gender can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire

Acts 2:17
In the last days,' God says,
'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams

italo:
So if someone has been baptized by the Holy Spirit, there is no need for water baptism?

There is no need for tithing but people still tithe dont they

italo:
Jesus mentions "water" and "spirit" yet you say kei444 is twisting.

Of course Jesus mentioned "water" and "spirit" but tell us was the "water" literal immersion water.
In that verse, was it physical baptism water? Of course not, it isnt

italo:
When "water" is not explicitly mentioned you say it is not water baptism. When water is explicitly mentioned, you still say it is not water baptism.

Because whenever baptism is mentioned you automatically jump to conclusion and presume it is water baptism, when it actually isnt.

italo:
Why?

Ah-ha, there you are.
kei444 knows what am on about that is why he is shy of addressing what he wrote concerning John 3:5 which I confronted him about

I presented the same verse to you, in one of those six itemised quetions so that all could see but you too baulked off John 3:5

Now you're asking why, if you really want to know why and if you have any appreciation for Greek you might look up the Greek word "huetos" used for water in John 3:5 and tell all, what kind of water (i.e. baptism water or not) did Jesus mention in John 3:5?

Whilst at it, also inform all interested, what that water in John 3:5 symbolises

italo:
Your point is that Baptism saves, but not water baptism.

What then is the use of water baptism?

Affirmative.
Water baptism is a shadow of the real deal,

It is less powerful than the real baptism of the Holy Ghost and Fire.

Like tithing it is past its "best before" date but people still use tithing as well as water baptism for sentimental or ignorance reason.

God has no problem with both, as that's the level such presently are.

Am more concerned with people such as kei144 trying to twist John 3:5 has having to do with physical or literal water baptism, which obviously it doesn't.

italo:
So you believe Peter and Ananias were teaching error when they said baptism remits sin?

Do you agree that there is no record of Paul ever being water baptised?

italo:
Amen! I believe Matt 3:11 that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Do you believe Acts 2:38 and 22:16 when they say Water Baptism remits sin?

https://i57.tinypic.com/34sp9j4.gif
Look at you trying to give the bible a helping hand
Where is water baptism in Acts 2:38?
What I read is be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
this is in accordance with what John the Baptist brought attention to in Matthew 3:11,
The real deal, the more powerful stuff, which you took delight in and agreed with

italo:
Jesus' apostles baptized in his presence...and he did not rebuke them.

Acts 2:38 Jesus apostles baptized to remit sin, in obedience to his teaching.

That is enough.

Can you show me where Jesus said the apostles should write any letter...or compile any bible...or read it...or where Jesus went to Church?

Yet you do these things because you believe the apostles were doing his intention.

So with baptism.

italo, I know why, where, when and how I got entangled in this matter with Kei144
but for you I'll leave you with this strongly instructive verse by the one who originally practised water baptism

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance.
But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11
"I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God.
But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Kei144:
Jn. 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptised.
Jn. 3:23 Now John also was baptising at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptised.
Jn. 3:24 (This was before John was put in prison.)
Jn. 3:25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.
Jn. 3:26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan — the one you testified about — well, he is baptising, and everyone is going to him.”
Jn. 3:27 To this John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.
Jn. 3:28 You yourselves can testify that I said, `I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.’
Jn. 3:29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.
Jn. 3:30 He must become greater; I must become less.

Jn. 4:1 The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptising more disciples than John,
Jn. 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptised, but his disciples.

Any pastor who does not baptize as Jesus himself did, is not following the example of Jesus. Water baptism is called ceremonial washing because it is a ceremony or rite of passage from the old man to the new man. God Himself instituted the ceremony and Jesus upheld the ceremony during his earthly ministry. I cannot follow any pastor or evangelist or prophet that looks down on a ceremony that Jesus upheld during his earthly ministry.

Water baptism as practised by John the Baptist up until before Jesus' resurrection, was for repentance.
It was a shadow of the real thing to come. It is like the law before the grace

Just like tithing, it is has gone past is "best before" date.
It can be done for jobsworths but it like tithing, is not necessarily obligatory

Just need you to admit your earlier comment about John 3:5 is a faux pas
and that it has nothing to do with immersion in physical water or baptism with literal water like you claim the verse to be

Similarly as the case is with tithing, no one is looking down at baptism with physical water
but as with tithing, pointing out that it can be done if willed but it is not nessarily obligatory.

Lets with a clear conscience, at least be honest in all of this, and other relating matter

Kei144:
Tit. 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Saviour appeared,
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Tit. 3:6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
Tit. 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Ceremonial washing (water baptism) is for rebirth (dying to the old man and being reborn in the new man). Holy Spirit baptism is for renewal of the inner man. Water baptism is an adoption ceremony, which results in a name change (baptized into the name of Jesus--Acts 8:16, 1Co. 1:13).

Jesus after His resurrection made no mention of this temporary adoption of the baptism with literal or physical water
He made reference and recommended baptism with the Spirit, he contrasted it with the baptism of John,
John the Baptist too is publicly confirmed that though he baptises with water, Jesus will baptise with Holy Ghost and fire (i.e. immerse or wash with Holy Ghost and Fire)

italo:
John 3:22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptized.

John 4:2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

Please dont forget the below itemised
#1 show us in any of the Gospel accounts, where Jesus commanded physical or literal water baptism in order to be saved
#2 show us where Jesus ever, by doctrine or otherwise, publicly or personally told anyone to be baptized with physical or literal water
#2b show us where Jesus recommended or directly advised ritual washings with physical water or literal water for purification
(i.e. baptism a la John the Baptist)
#3 tell us how many people to your knowledge Jesus baptised with physical or literal water
#4 tell us how many people to your knowledge Paul baptised with physical or literal water and why not more than that number
#5 expound the poetic device in John 3:5

An italo Bonus #6 As St Augustine supported pugatory and prayer for the dead, do you as well believe in these too

steveGlacial:
some pple might want to think I'm ungrateful well I live them to their opinion.

I m the definition of the person I don't like
I've tried all I can to stop the negative things going on in my life but it gets even worse.
I think problems are created to be solved but I find it very difficult to solve my problems.
After going deep in solving this problems spiritually, physically mentally and even emotionally.
I know I'm not who I'm mearnt to be.
And this has totally led to been frustrated at times.
I don't if its a sin that s taking its toll on me but I read God forgives sins . But now I feel neglected by God.
Now I don't know where to go from
I just serious HELP

No one is a mind reader,
nor has anyone proffered you a word of knowledge yet

You say, you're frustrated, that you need serious help
but when Ishilove, TheFilmmaker and adexsimply ask you for specifics, you come out that it's not about finance, yet still leaving readers guessing

None is the wiser, what is plaguing you or what is not giving you peace of mind
but if you do really have a relationship with Abba, God the Father, you'll know that He is a Faithful God

He is God, who knows the plans He has for you,
"plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future

He is God, who declares to you
Call upon Me, come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.…

I dont know the exact details of your situation, predicament, or position and I don't have any silver or gold for you
but what I have are three prayers for you to appropriately choose from depending on the relevance to your plight

Jabez's Prayers for a Turnaround: (1 Chronicles 4:9-10)
⁹There was a man named Jabez who was more honorable than any of his brothers.
His mother named him Jabez because his birth had been so painful.
¹⁰He was the one who prayed to the God of Israel,
“Oh, that you would bless me and expand my territory! Please be with me in all that I do, and keep me from all trouble and pain!”
And God granted him his request.

David's Prayers for Forgiveness: (Psalm 51:1-17)
¹Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
²Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.
³For I recognize my rebellion;
it haunts me day and night.
⁴Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.
⁵For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
⁶But you desire honesty from the womb,
teaching me wisdom even there.
⁷Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
⁸Oh, give me back my joy again;
you have broken me—
now let me rejoice.
⁹Don’t keep looking at my sins.
Remove the stain of my guilt.
¹⁰Create in me a clean heart, O God.
Renew a loyal spirit within me.
¹¹Do not banish me from your presence,
and don’t take your Holy Spiritd from me.
¹²Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and make me willing to obey you.
¹³Then I will teach your ways to rebels,
and they will return to you.
¹⁴Forgive me for shedding blood, O God who saves;
then I will joyfully sing of your forgiveness.
¹⁵Unseal my lips, O Lord,
that my mouth may praise you.
¹⁶You do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer one.
You do not want a burnt offering.
¹⁷The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit.
You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.

Solomon's Prayers for Wisdom: 1 Kings 3:7-14
⁷“Now, O Lord my God, you have made me king instead of my father, David, but I am like a little child who doesn’t know his way around.
⁸And here I am in the midst of your own chosen people, a nation so great and numerous they cannot be counted!
⁹Give me an understanding heart so that I can [s]rule all that you've put in my charge, care and hand[/s] govern your people well
and know the difference between right and wrong.
For who by himself is able to [s]manage your blessings & rule over all these good gifts you've blessed me with[/s] govern this great people of yours?”
¹⁰The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for wisdom.
¹¹So God replied,
“Because you have asked for wisdom in governing my people with justice
and have not asked for a long life or wealth or the death of your enemies—
¹²I will give you what you asked for! I will give you a wise and understanding heart such as no one else has had or ever will have!
¹³And I will also give you what you did not ask for—riches and fame!
No other king in all the world will be compared to you for the rest of your life!
¹⁴And if you follow me and obey my decrees and my commands as your father, David, did, I will give you a long life.”

Prayer is the key, Prayer is the key, Prayer is the master key. Jesus started with prayer and ended with prayer. Prayer is the key.

Depending of what your predicament is, you have three prayers above to select from
(i.e. Turnaround, Forgiveness & Good Decision Making/Wisdom prayers)

I have partially tried to personalise the Solomon Prayer a bit for you.
Choose which of the prayers above is applicable to your situation, and pray it with faith.
Keep the faith fiery and flaming with the famous Shunammite woman's 2 Kings 4:26 "It is well" response
(i.e. dont confess the situation or where you are stucked at but confess the destination or where you want to be)

God is a God of multiple chances. He gives us multiple chances and not the conventional second chance
If you're waking up everyday, it means God has a purpose for you, plans not of evil, thoughts of peace, to give you the end that you wait for.

menesheh:
so naive

Non sequitur. Olodo. Yeye de smell

menesheh:
Didn't get the angle u are coming from.

Sleep on it then, you will sooner or later...

menesheh:
Religion can be referred as groups of same believers of an idea (religious groups), same with cult.

Next time, be that explicit so we know you havent deviated from the original theme (i.e. religious groups and religious cult)

Back on course, if you know and admit that "Religion can be referred as groups of same believers of an idea" why ask a lame question about norm?
As earlier said, when a religious group deviates from what is the norm or what's normal in mainstream religious groups, it turns into a cult

Adding crazy, bizarre, stewpid, odd, eccentric, strange, brainwashed ideas to the norm positions religious group changing into a cult

The cult transition is gradual, it's not something that happens suddenly, overnight or very quickly

It's onlookers or outsiders that recognise the cult signs, cult members nine times out of ten dont

Some giveaway signs of emergent or full-fledged cults are members copying the religious group leadership's physical appearance, grooming and dressing style, actions, words, behaviour etc

menesheh:
Norm?

Norm can be idea that is typical of a group of people or community meaning that cult can actually have their norms aside what you perceived as a general ideas.
Norm in china may never be one in Nigeria. Same with ideas of a group to the other.

You're now shifted from religious beliefs to groups and/or communities now, are you?
OK, since its you who opened this thread, why not give the examples of the religious beliefs and examples of the cults that prompted you post the thread then.