₦airaland Forum

For you Buhari supporters going on and on about Ribadu working with Tinubu, here is a portion of an article form yesterday's The Guardian. It was written by Reno Omokri:

Well let us examine case by case. Major General Muhammadu Buhari (rtd) had strong words for the PDP over its reception of Bode George and described the PDP as being immune to shame for associating with a man convicted for corruption. Well here is the thing – General Sani Abacha has been confirmed by several independent panels as well as courts of competent jurisdiction in Nigeria and Europe to have looted conservatively about $5 billion from the Nigerian treasury. Yet Buhari did say on June 8, 2008, at the Abacha family residence that Abacha was a man who served Nigeria and who did not loot. (see http://allafrica.com/stories/200806090008.html).

When you consider the damage done to Nigeria by Abacha and that done by Bode George you will agree that though both of them behaved unconscionably the behaviour of Abacha was more reprehensible and had a greater negative impact on the economy and image of Nigeria than Bode George's behaviour yet Muhammdu Buhari still saw it fit to celebrate such a man! Is it not hypocritical that Muhammdu Buhari can then today condemn the PDP for an act of which he is also guilty of? Of course our politicians take Nigerians and their short memory for granted.

And that is not all.  Mohammed Abacha and Atiku Bagudu  were both indicted by Switzerland under Swiss legislation for money-laundering, fraud and for taking part in a criminal organisation. Yet this same Mohammed Abacha was received with fan fare by Major General Muhammadu Buhari (rtd) at his Kaduna residence last year. In fact the young Abacha registered as a member of the CPC in Buhari's residence. What is the difference in the reception Bode George's friends had for him and that which Buhari gave to Mohammed Abacha who incidentally is now a gubernatorial candidate in Kano under the banner of Buhari's party?

Wadeoye:
@MyJoe, it is either your memory is failing you or you were a kid/not born when Buhari was in government - petroleum minister, Head of State and PTF. Can anybody compare the PTF of Buhari with the PTDF of today? PTDF that is now a cesspool of corruption.

I was not too young when Mr Buhari sacked Nigeria's elected government with a gun and visited his brand of discipline, which included death for carrying drugs, on Nigerians. And my memory is not failing me. But why do most of you Buhari supporters always do this - making vague references to the golden days of Buhari without pointing to anything concrete? You mentioned PTF. Ok, let's talk about PTF. Do you know why it was only the Northern elders that protested stridently when PTF was shut down? PTF built a lot of structures that we can still point to today, but that agency remains Buhari's legacy of shame, a lasting testimonial to his narrow-mindedness and ethnic bigotry. There have been lists of PTF's executed projects published. You may wish to get up and find any, and then come here to explain why the region that exclusively funded PTF got about the least number of executed projects while Buhari's home state and NW region without a proven drop of oil got the highest. Then if you are unable or unwilling to, I can help you tie that in with other Buhari utterances and actions and what emerges will be a perfect specimen of an ethnic champion. Obasanjo may have failed as Nigeria's president, but at least he was Nigerian in outlook. That is something Buhari cannot become in 100 years.

Voting for Ribadu is a gamble, but, unfortunately, he remains the most qualified of those running for the top job in the present election. It is a sensible gamble. Why do you say it is a "senseless" gamble? Again you say nothing in support of that serious assertion.

JeSoul:
^Thank you for this . I don't necessarily disagree with much of what you've said. I'm not in a good position to speak to what the current climate is so I appreciate the break-down, thanks, really. On the bolded bit . . . I see what you're saying. But you'll have to agree that the adv/disadv weigh heavily in one direction over the other. See one of my friends who just got back from Naija . . . why won't stories like these continue to scare and annoy the heck outta me?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-170354.2400.html#msg7664163

That's one traumatic story! But I guess we have all heard worse. And to comment on bolded, being far away sometimes makes things appear worse than they are. You know there are many folks in Nigeria who think America is all about 15 y/o kids running around with loaded pistols? Now, there are 15 y/o kids who run around with loaded pistols in America, but that's not what America is all about. People wake up and go to school or work in the morning without thinking "I hope I make it back to this this house in one piece without having had my head blown to pieces by 15 year olds." You get my point. Actually violent crime is not what worries me the most about Nigeria. The state of official response is far more worrisome. What is painful about your friend's story is the fact the boys operated for such a long time without the police having been summoned through phone calls. A lot has been done about crime in Lagos, but they're still quite far from there.

JeSoul: Haha! I actually hope to be making a graceful exit from corporate science soon. While I remain enchanted with the dream that is science & knowledge & discovery, the reality for the most part presents a sorry disconnect. Which I've noticed over time results in zombi-ism that is driven only by the promise of a weekly paycheck. And I would like to be driven by more than promise of a weekly paycheck .

But ehn . . . if you hear of any labs venturing into Fringe science . . . mehn, I will work for free!

The best ones I know are in Nigeria!

What a thread!

The first time I saw the advert I noticed that line instantly - that, of course, because of the familiar but somewhat nonsensical statement about Nigeria being the giant of Africa. To be sure, I don't find the ad offensive as a Nigerian but I think the person that wrote it made a gaffe. The line is quite out of place in the ad and was clearly inserted by someone who wanted to tell Nigerians "something". "South Africa is truly the giant of Africa." That is, Here is one of your fellow Nigerians saying, "Nigerians, forget your claims to being the giant of Africa. South Africa is the true giant." Hardly necessary. Spoils an otherwise beautiful ad.

But it's a good thing that excessive national pride is not a problem with Nigerians the way it is generally with South Africans and people of some other countries.

damas11111:
With all your good sense of reasoning as evident in your post, you still fail to aknowledge that of all the three, "Buharis sins" are of least degrees.

How and when does it even become a "sin" for a military man to sack an obviously corrupt govt which was widely known by all and sundry for the looting of our nation's treasury? Will it not even be better for the military to overthrow this useless govt of PDP that has nothing tangible to show for the over $500B we earned in 12 years of their mis-rulership? With all the noise and hatred for the military intervention in our polity, their era has brought more and far better development to our country than the so-called civilian era.

I am assuming that you are an adult Nigerian. Do you have FACTS to prove that the military brought more developments than civilian governments? There are FACTS to the contrary. And did you watch proceedings of the famous Oputa Panel? If you did not, I suggest you seek out the clips or media coverage of them; or seek out and the read the book Nigeria: The Nightmare Scenario, by Patrick Wilmot, and Nigeria’s Ghana-Must-Go Republic, by a catholic priest I can’t recall his name. If you do you will realize how low this country sank under infantrymen of whom you speak so fondly.

Beyond the amnesia that is plainly responsible for all nostalgia towards military dictatorship, I think what you and those who say similar things as you do fail to realise is that no matter the situation of governance in a state, soldiers simply do not have the solution to these complex problems. This has been proven true again and again from Nigeria to Bangladesh. Inviting the military is merely “doing something”, perhaps understandably out of desperation, not sorting out the problem.

damas11111: Let's face it, Libya with Gadhafi ruling for more than 41years is far better than Nigeria with democracy. You only need to listen to those Nigerians recently evacuated from Libya to know that they were faring better than majority back home.

Some might say you only need to go to Benghazi and speak to family members of Libyans who were taken away at night and were never heard from again for voicing anti-Gadhafi sentiments to know Libyans were not necessarily faring better than Nigerians. They had electricity yes, but they lacked basic freedom. Or would you have loved to live in the Soviet Union under Stalin, even though the man turned a peasant nation into a world super power?

Besides, one is baffled when people make these comparisons and conclude that since Egyptians and Tunisians and Libyans have more electricity and good road than Nigerians dictatorship may be so bad after all. What is wrong with having freedom and electricity? And do you know how the resources to population of those countries compare to Nigeria's? Libya's population is around six million, if I recall things right. With more crude oil reserves than Nigeria, do you find your comparisons justifiable?

damas11111: For me, Buhari's sacking of Shagari regime even slowed down the decay that our society was to pass through. Had he intervened to enrich himself and his family members, then no pardoning. HE MEANT WELL with his intervention and that's the more reason he can command a significant following today.

I seriously doubt you know this for a fact, considering the corruption allegations against him which have not been resolved. But never mind unproven allegations. How do you know he meant well? And perhaps you can name one thing Buhari has ever done well for this country? I mean – maybe I have forgotten and need to be reminded of his achievements during his stint as head of state and after. I think having the appearance of being spartan, religious and self-disciplined is what people mistake for having presidential ability. But beyond these, what are Buhari’s ideological leanings outside his naive belief that implementing a 14th century religious code would cure society of moral decadence and corruption? What are his ideas? What is his game plan to put Nigeria on the road to development within the next four years?

damas11111: A vote for Jonathan is surely a deservice to our nation.

Yes.

damas11111: A vote for Ribadu is surely a gamble judging by the people around him.

I already addressed that issue in an earlier post, but let me add here that you would have to say that for every candidate. The CPC may not have had a chance to mess up itself yet, but what is the caliber of people there? Buhari, Mohammed Abacha! Buhari became the party’s presidential candidate the same day he joined. Hardly democratic, wont’ you say? If you wish to find a serious presidential contender at the Nigeria or, indeed, any clime, who does not have people of questionable characters in his party, I’d wish you Godspeed.

damas11111: A vote for Buhari is surely a vote for positive change, progress and accountability in our nation.

Is there a basis for this assertion – I mean what (1) positive change, (2) progress and (3) accountability that have brought about concretely identifiable achievements has Buhari wrought? Perhaps it's his vice president that inspires you - Tunde Bakare, the Idiagbon reincarnation who threatened to shut out any church member who did not possess a voters' card?

Kobojunkie:
I was not countering your post . . . I did see the sarcasm in your post. . . just calling for people to think a bit deeper on these conspiracy theories so they can on their own realize how stu-pid they really are.

Okay, but still you miss something: conspiracy theorists don't think.

JeSoul:
MyJoe! my it has been a long time . I am well sir. How are you doing? Hows the family? I hope all has been sunshine and seabreeze .

Everyone's doing great. Thanks aplenty!

JeSoul: Lol@ 'mainstreamer'. Is that what I sound like?  
This is true. I was opportuned to do some vast travelling recently and France was the only country I could see myself living in joyfully besides America . . . the UK didn't really appeal to me . . . no 'soul' imo, if you know what I mean. And for supposed 'owners' of the English language, you cannot hear a dam thing they say when they speak 

Lol. Seems you jammed 'em Cockney speaking types. The English, perhaps once you leave a small part of Southern England, have no common language. Higgins said something similar in the movie My Fair Lady 50 years ago and it’s still true today. Once an Englishman opens his mouth you can tell his background. Queens English is actually refreshing to the ear and I’d pick it over any other variety of spoken English any day, but it seems only when spoken by those of them from the “public school” tradition. Most cockney leave you close to tears the way Australian English does.

JeSoul: Okay being serious . . .

You're right the overall tone of my post could be accused of being 'knee-jerk'. I only hope that in my brashness, the real point I was trying to make was not lost. That America, almost always (and certainly for me) is the best place for a black woman to be.
lol. Perhaps. Show me an African woman, and 9.9 out of 10 have faced at least one of the scenarios I mentioned. As much as I love Africa, God, our shortcomings in so many departments of life are so severe. Perhaps my 'typification-ing' was harsh . . . but honestly, I think it is well earned and deserved. And as always, I'm open to being educated on anything I might be wrong on.

Cheers my sir

I don’t think what you said was knee-jerk. I meant that for the anti-American conspiracy theorists.

I disagree with bolded. Let's look at the scenarios.

JeSoul:
Should I go to africa? where there is no 'racism' but tribalism that is just as fierce and deadly reigns supreme?

True. Tribalism is indeed as bad as racism.

JeSoul: where I can become chief's 3rd wife in order to survive?

Since only a small minority of women are in pologamous marriages these days, this is a big exaggeration. No, you don’t have to be a third wife to survive. None of my many female relatives had to. There are kept women in the US, too. The levels of poverty in Nigeria are much higher than those of the US, that means fewer opportunities, and that, perhaps, means the percentages are higher - not that I am even sure of that. But things are changing. There departments of universities you go to nowadays and you wonder if there’s some maiden dance going on – women are getting educated and liberated.

JeSoul: or one of the kokolettes hustling their bodies and self-esteem just to be able to survive?

There are also many women everywhere who have to take to “artistoism” or “kokoletism” to survive. There was an American woman who auctioned her virginity on e-Bay a couple of years or so ago, just so she could raise money to see herself through college. There are probably just more women involved in Nigeria.

JeSoul: or hope if my husband dies in-laws will not accuse me of killing him and therefore take all my property and banish me and my children out of our own house?

I would not bother too much about this. Nigerians, especially those of means, write wills nowadays. Even if you remove wills, such traditions apply, in practical terms, to a small minority of Nigerians.

JeSoul: or have to sleep with my professor in order to pass the course?

I will agree with you this is fairly rampant - but still, two quick points (i) It has been reported in the US (ii) Most girls don't have do this to pass, only a small minority of them do. Besides several universities have now come up with reliable means of checking the problem.

JeSoul: or with my boss in order to stay employed?

Maybe I should just skip this one since it's impossible to guess its extent. But just a few points (i) I know women working in Nigeria who don't have to do this. (ii) It's often not clear cut if it's the lady looking for bosses to sleep with because of a belief (false as often as it's true) that it will help her advance or the boss hounding ladies to sleep with him to keep their jobs. I think it comes down to the mentality of cutting corners to get ahead.

JeSoul: tell me Cap? where if I am robbed or rayped the best I can hope is karma or celestial justice in another life?

True. While there is crime everywhere, and we may have less of it in Nigeria than the US, the official response to it in places like Nigeria is indefensible.

JeSoul: or where if I am sick, the likeliest course of action is to solicit prayers at a cost from the local crooked pastor?

True if the statement is modified to reflect the fact that only certain cases cannot be treated in Nigeria. There are hospitals sufficiently equipped to treat 99% of ailments suffered by Nigerians living in Nigeria. Afterall, there are people who have never travelled abroad who live above 100 in Nigeria. It's the small minority that make the headlines. Although I must quickly add there is no excuse for that small minority. Most people who die of treatable ailments in Nigeria, whether from going to white garment prophet or "tradomedical" doctor, doctor strikes, inability to travel abroad or whatever reason, do so out of ignorance, superstition or poverty. Which just applies to the US or any other country where the poor may die because they have no health insurance.

JeSoul: Like I said, America is not perfect - never has been, and never will be. But by God and all His angels . . . America is by far better than any other 'alternative' out there. And I love Nigeria die, but fact is fact. And if all this makes me brainwashed, then may brainwashing always be my portion.

I disagree with the bolded. The way I see it, when you leave one clime for another, you exchange one set of problems for another. It is for that reason that there are many people for whom America is not as good as some alternatives out there. To illustrate, Katsumoto said something about being (i) a job seeker (ii) a rich playboy just looking to have fun. These two categories of people have different needs and will the same places from different prisms. One can write a whole book on the advantages of living in Europe over the US, or, yes, Nigeria over the US and vice versa.

_{But if I were a scientist looking to reach my full potentials, I'd probably kill to be in the US!} 

Kobojunkie:
Please think about that for a minute . . . . how does one destroy China and Russia by removing Mubarak and Ghaddafi when America stands to loose the most in all that continues to happen, and people around the world continue to acknowledge this

ROFLMAO!!!

Been reading you on this forum and would never have thought you don't comprehend such things as sarcasm, no matter how obvious! No, I should put it down to haste on your part just now. You, ma'am, really do need to take it easy.

[quote author=potof_soup link=topic=613712.msg7816807#msg7816807 date=1298902927]but Ribadu is romancing with Tinubu, a drug dealer and a thief. Have you forgotten that aspect, or its worth glossing over?[/quote]Well, Tinubu is a problem, but he is not the AC, is he? Anyway, you cannot get to power in Nigeria or anywhere for that matter if you decide to skip every party with a bad kahuna, unless your mission in politics is to make a statement that  you once ran for the presidency. To have a realistic shot at it, you need a big party. Once you get there you then decide what to do with your office. Being in a party with Tinubu is not enough to discredit him, in my view.

[quote author=potof_soup]File to the streets after six months? Okay - you are assuming six months is enough to fix over 50 years of neglect? Six months?[/quote]There should improvements or some concrete achievements in six months. But you can shift that to 12 months if you prefer - it takes nothing away from my message.

Why Voting for Ribadu is a Gamble

Not yet sure who to vote for between Jonathan and Ribadu. But I am quite sure who I will not vote for: Buhari. And I wonder how anyone can.

When people talk of making Buhari president, I ask them, which Buhari? Is it the fellow who chased the President of the Federal Republic out of state house one morning and took over the reins of government? A crime he committed in our face with our gun and for which he is yet to stand trial. An action that inexorably delivered us into the satanic hands of two of the worst human beings ever given birth to in this country – Babangida and Abacha.

Is it the same man whose widow’s mite contribution towards our efforts to liberate ourselves from military dictatorship was to serve under Abacha at a time the goggled one was killing, jailing and torturing us? And he now comes out to insult our intelligence by declaring to run for the presidency in a democratic election?

Here is a man who never said or did anything in defence of democracy but has undermined it all his waking life. Here is a man who has no plan for the country, whose only mission in politics to re-write his history by “correcting” the fact that he only stayed 20 months in the saddle while Obasanjo, IBB and Abacha had years.

Here is a man whose comprehension of some basic national issues is appalling, his position on the Niger Delta being that since unlike groundnut, cows and co, oil is drilled from the ground by foreign companies without any input from Nigerians, the Niger Deltans do not really have much claims.

Yesterday I saw a news item that IBB supporters have transferred their support to Mr Buhari. Now, that’s to be expected. It simply sends a chill down my spine to realise there are Nigerians who have not moved beyond the likes of Mr Buhari. May their road be rough.

*

Now to Goodluck Jonathan, PhD, the man who's likely to win the elections. This guy’s minuses are so many you can write a whole book on them. But for me the worst is the fact he has clearly demonstrated that politics is more important to him than anything else. That is, Mr Jonathan would do something because it would advance his cause of becoming president, even though it will hurt the national interest or his public perception. Here is a man who has declared IBB his father, is jumping into bed with a convicted thief Bode George, got a murder suspect out of detention by executive order and had him flown to Abuja to vote in his primaries.

It is hard to be certain of much about Nigerian politics, but I am fairly certain that a vote for Jonathan is a vote for another four years of business as usual – the reign of godfathers, Ghana-must-go bags and the like. I am not suggesting Mr Jonathan is worse than the other misrulers who have run this country since 1960. Just saying he not better than any of them. But I have seriously considered voting for him, particularly at the time that garrulous geriatric Ciroma was at the height of his performance, spewing north-is-born-to-rule profanities, and I kept asking myself how come the region that picks up the nation’s bills is not qualified to produce the president but a far less endowed region which has ruled the country more than any other is.

*

Nuhu Ribadu. This is one man I deeply admire. But, you see, the problem we have with our political elite in Nigeria is two-fold. Corruption and incompetence. Even if you cure Nigeria of corruption today that will not be enough to guarantee development. After all, the likes of South Korea and others made good progress in spite of rampant corruption, and Eritrea has remained another African sad story despite low levels of corruption.

Does Mr Ribadu have the competence to run Nigeria? The man has little or no administrative experience. He is untested and I don’t think you can start learning the steps from the presidency. But it will be a fallacious argument to state categorically that a man cannot run Nigeria because of lack of experience. We simply don’t know if Ribadu will work or not. Voting for, Ribadu, therefore, is a gamble. But it’s one I might take yet.

*

Sad thing is these are all our elite have been able to produce for us to choose from. It tells you they have not made up their minds to do something about this country. Sad.

I learnt Mr Buhari wants us to go into the streets like Egyptians once he gives us the signal that he has been rigged out by Mr Jonathan. Nobody should listen to him when he gives that signal. After the elections, we should give whoever is declared the winner six months to fix electricity or we file into the streets like the Egyptians.

-MyJoe

@Joagbaje

According to the Bible, the nation of Israel was rejected by God. Jesus himself said so.

It would appear the Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah and those hoping there would be a mass conversion to Christianity have hoped in vain since. I have always wondered on what basis you people blindly support Israel. Jesus himself:

Matt 21:43, NIV:
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Matt 23:37, NIV:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

It would appear then, that Paul was referring to something else as "Israel" since in Gal 6:16 he speaks of "the Israel of God". References to this group in the book of Revelation as "coming out of different tribes and nations" confirm this.

In Acts 10:34,35, NIV, we read:
34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

Thus anyone who does the will of God, be he Yoruba, Arab or Indian, is of the Israel of God. There are no chosen nations anymore - assuming there ever was.

@RWilliams
What you pasted above only affirms the point I have been trying to make about how your Society takes quotations out of context and distorts facts to prove its own points.

RWilliams:
Another line of evidence supporting 607/ 1914
Click here for more info

I already addressed this on the previous page. Read it.

RWilliams:
My Joe, you wanted a few quotes from Historians pointing to 1914 as a turning point. There is no shortage of them,  this is about 25 min click and past.

\The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World is the title of a 2007 book by Alan Greenspan. For almost 20 years, he was chairman of the United States Federal Reserve Board, which oversees that nation’s entire central banking system. Greenspan highlights the marked contrast between the world situation before 1914 and what followed:
  “By all contemporaneous accounts, the world prior to 1914 seemed to be moving irreversibly toward higher levels of civility and civilization; human society seemed perfectible. The nineteenth century had brought an end to the wretched slave trade. Dehumanizing violence seemed on the decline. . . . The pace of global invention had advanced throughout the nineteenth century, bringing railroads, the telephone, the electric light, cinema, the motor car, and household conveniences too numerous to mention. Medical science, improved nutrition, and the mass distribution of potable water had elevated life expectancy . . . The sense of the irreversibility of such progress was universal.”
  But . . . “World War I was more devastating to civility and civilization than the physically far more destructive World War II: the earlier conflict destroyed an idea. I cannot erase the thought of those pre-World War I years, when the future of mankind appeared unencumbered and without limit. Today our outlook is starkly different from a century ago but perhaps a bit more consonant with reality. Will terror, global warming, or resurgent populism do to the current era of life-advancing globalization what World War I did to the previous one? No one can be confident of the answer.”
  Greenspan recalled from his student days a statement by Economics Professor Benjamin M. Anderson (1886-1949): “Those who have an adult’s recollection and an adult’s understanding of the world which preceded World War I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed.”—Economics and the Public Welfare.

I cannot continue to pursue that without sounding like a broken record, but some quick points:
- Greenspan is no kind of historian.
- “By all contemporaneous accounts, the world prior to 1914 seemed to be moving irreversibly toward …” can be applied to other dates in history. In fact, Greenspan does not dismiss the idea that future generations may substitute Sept 11, 2001 for 1914 in that statement.
- Statement’s like Anderson's can only be understood in certain contexts, especially since hard facts and figures don’t support the idea that the world has become less secure,

You have probably heard the story about five blind men that "saw" an elephant and each gave the elephant a different description because they touched different parts of it. But when it is still possible observe an elephant from a distance at get an overall picture as to what it looks like. It is possible to look at the whole picture of the world since 1914 to see what it looks like.
To help convey the point I am trying to make, let’s take the case of earthquake and this erroneous position from your Insight book:

Insight on the Scriptures, volume 1
“Jesus foretold earthquakes in significant number and intensity as a feature of the sign of his presence. (Mt 24:3, 7, 8; Lu 21:11) Since 1914 C.E., there has been an increase in the number of earthquakes, resulting in much distress. With data obtained from the National Geophysical Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, supplemented by a number of standard reference works, a tabulation was made in 1984 that included only earthquakes that measured 7.5 or more on the Richter scale, or that resulted in destruction of five million dollars (U.S.) or more in property, or that caused 100 or more deaths. It was calculated that there had been 856 of such earthquakes during the 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation showed that in just 69 years following 1914 there were 605 of such quakes. These statistics are a means of indicating the extent of suffering from earthquakes during this period of history.”

Now, compare that with the contrary but correct position which is stated in The Watchtower magazine itself:
“In this regard, note what the book Natural Disasters-Acts of God or Acts of Man? has this to say: ‘There is no evidence that the climatological mechanisms associated with droughts, floods and cyclones are changing. And no geologist is claiming that the earth movements associated with earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunami (earthquake waves) are becoming more violent.’ Similarly, the book Earthshock observes: ‘The rocks of every continent contain a record of innumerable major and minor geological events, every one of which would be a catastrophic disaster to mankind if they occurred today-and it is scientifically certain that such events will occur again and again in the future.’ In other words, the earth and its dynamic forces have more or less remained the same throughout the ages. Hence, whether or not some statistics indicate an increase of some forms of geologic or other activity, the earth has not become uncontrollably violent in recent times.” (w93 12/1 p 6)

If you make a careful analysis of wars, violent crime and diseases, you will reach the same conclusion as that Watchtower article correctly did concerning earthquakes. In fact, in some cases such as pestilence, you may find improvements. But maybe you’ve not compared the infant mortality rates of today to those of 1900.

So I ask you again, where is the historian saying that the worse has become worse since 1914?

RWilliams:
A World Undone, by G. J. Meyer, published in 2006. We read: “Historic events are often said to have ‘changed everything.’ In the case of the Great War [1914-1918] this is, for once, true. The war really did change everything: not just borders, not just governments and the fate of nations, but the way people have seen the world and themselves ever since. It became a kind of hole in time, leaving the post-war world permanently disconnected from everything that had come before.”

I can't see what part of that supports your 1914 theory. It merely says the world changed in 1914, the way George W. Bush and even some journalists and historians said the world changed on 11 Sept 2001.

RWilliams:
As far back as December 1879—some 35 years before 1914—The Watchtower (then known as Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence) gave Bible evidence proving that 1914 would be a significant year. Fair enough, as many are too keen to point out, they thought at the time that Jesus would actually arrive on earth at that time establish his kingdom, destroying the "gentile nations" this was due to the widely held belief (by many christian religions)  that these signs were evidence of Jesus "coming" as is often translated, rather than his actual "presence" in heavenly power. The following explanation shows the real meaning behind "parousia"

Yeah, they did not merely state that “1914 would be a significant year.” That’s telling a lie to meander out of another lie. (And that's the only issue some of us "honest-hearted ones" have with your church - not the lies, as we all make mistakes, but the refusal to accept them, come clean and admit they are human just like the rest of us and not some specially consecrated vessel being used by God to dish out truths to mankind.) They prophesied that the world would end in 1914 and made this affirmatory statement:
"They are, we believe, Gods dates and not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.”
Zion’s Watchtower 15 July 1894
Note that this remained your official teaching till 1925. Yet your church would have you believe that when Jesus came in 1918 it was picked because it was found to be teaching the truth. That is, Jesus picked your religion at a time it was teaching a lie about its most fundamental doctrine.

If you take some time to read the books from which those quotations up there were drawn you may see why people accuse your publications of taking quotations out of context.

I have said enough in this thread and some might wonder why you can’t see through spin and lies and hypotheses and conjectures, all in the justification of 1914, a date which amounts to nothing more than the personal opinion of Pastor Russell who actually arrived at it through star reading and measurements taken of certain pyramids in Egypt. You will find that in your old publications.

JeSoul is a mainstreamer championing conservative American ideals. My name is MyJoe and I approve this message. 

Howdy, JeSoul?

JeSoul:
America is the greatest country on earth. Lemme say that again. America is the greatest country on earth.

For all her faults and shortcomings, for all her sins and atrocities, for her terrible history and dark beginings . . . please name one country on the face of the planet where I as a black woman can be afforded the opportunities and rights that I presently have and to the high degree that I have them. Please name just one country. Biko. Thank you in advance.

Should I go to africa? where there is no 'racism' but tribalism that is just as fierce and deadly reigns supreme? where I can become chief's 3rd wife in order to survive? or one of the kokolettes hustling their bodies and self-esteem just to be able to survive? or hope if my husband dies in-laws will not accuse me of killing him and therefore take all my property and banish me and my children out of our own house? or have to sleep with my professor in order to pass the course? or with my boss in order to stay employed? tell me Cap? where if I am robbed or rayped the best I can hope is karma or celestial justice in another life? or where if I am sick, the likeliest course of action is to solicit prayers at a cost from the local crooked pastor? or if I am shot and almost killed by theives (just like my friend was) no one will be held accountable?   

Like I said, America is not perfect - never has been, and never will be. But by God and all His angels . . . America is by far better than any other 'alternative' out there. And I love Nigeria die, but fact is fact. And if all this makes me brainwashed, then may brainwashing always be my portion.

and like I said, if Castro is a hero to you, then Godbless you. I can think of a significant number of countries and peoples that drastically disagree with that estimation. One need look only as far as google to see just how many . . .

I always feel a bit at a loss when Americans make this sort of claim in bold. I mean, an American friend of mine once kept going on and on about freedom and I was forced to launch into facts and figures proving there is actually far more “freedom” in France than the US.

All things considered, the US is the greatest nation on earth. But, of course, there is no position you or any black occupies in the US that they can’t in the UK or France. The US has had a black woman as foreign minister, the UK, with much smaller percentage of blacks has had an international development minister. But these ideas are actively promoted in the US and people tend to believe and repeat them without, it seems, matching them with present day or even historical realities. Personally I tend to bracket them with knee-jerk anti-Americanism, another fad I have little patience for.

I don't agree with your typification of Africa versus America, but maybe some other time I will say something about that.

Mariory:
I can't stop laughing. Considering the fact that most of the leaders facing trouble are long standing US/Western allies, there is only one conclusion that can be reached after reading that write up. Absolute trash.

The US is attepting to topple it's own friends to spite China and Russia? Logic expressed by extremely small intelligence.

Yeah. Removing Mubarak and Gaddafi = eliminating Egypt and Libya to destroy China and Russia to have a sole superpower to control Middle Eastern oil to . . .

Happy New Year Mad_Max. And DS and benodic!

superboi:
This is not about Gbagbo as the UN is making it out. It is about the Army not accepting troops that mutined against it in 2002 back

^^^  How, please? I thought an election was held and Gbagbo, the losing candidate, is refusing to give it up. That, it appears, is clearly the burning issue, not the Ivorian military versus mutinous soldiers. The underlying issues are (i) a small oligarchy around Gbagbo who have grown rich under his regime and want the heavens to continue raining porridge as they have in the past 10 years (2) a band of Southern ethnocrats who believe a Northerner must never rule the Ivory Coast. Sarkozy may have an interest and all, but he IS not the source of the problem in Ivory Coast. If it is ALL about French business interests, Gbagbo is more than enough to protect those-and, then of course, we'd say "Oh, he's backing Gbagbo to protect French business interests!" Besides, Gbagbo has also benefited immensely from France at different times in his political life. All the anti-French rhetoric now being spewed by him and his supporters like ble Goude are convenient nonsense meant manipulate the masses.

When you talk about the mutinous soldiers, recall that Gbagbo has been an architect, and a beneficiary, of the factionalisation of the Ivorian military. When Guei refused to give up power after losing the election to Gbagbo in 2000 it was a group of soldiers from Gbagbo’s ethnic group that killed Guei and helped the wily old professor capture power. You are not calling them mutinous because their patron, Ghagbo, won out. The world generally kept mum because it was tired of Guei’s antics.

When Gbagbo took office it was clear he had no intention of uniting the country but was bent on continuing the divide and rule politics started by Bedie. The northern boys were merely trying to survive politically when they took up arms. (Unless you agree with the view which classes them as “foreigners”.)

What you have in Ivory Coast today is not a true national army. It is an ethnic militia. The only legitimacy they have over the Buake boys is the fact they live in official barracks. Quattara or the UN did not start the Bouake rebellion. It is only natural that Quattara has chosen to identify with them by appointing their leader his PM. You have a situation where he is faced with and surrounded by an ethnic militia masquerading as a national army.

It is sad that a once prosperous country has degenerated to this level due to the ambitions of Henry Konan Bedie & Co.

Zikky: Hmmm. G. I. Jo Been trying to visualize a fight scene with you in an armored suit, sword in hand (or is it RPG?) chasing some baddies Assuming you do make to heaven, I think Christ should ensure an angel is given the task of monitoring your every move, just to ensure you don’t let in some of them sinners into Heaven via the back door (after collecting egunje in the form of tithes and offerings)

Lol
What I'm trying to visualise is Hamas and those hapless Palestinians already castrated by Israeli mortals trying to stand up with their Iranian-made weapons to a Joagbaje-led interstellar battalion wielding heaven-made TAR-21 riffles.

spearman:
Without Sahara Reporters Nigeria will be a far worse place than it is today. These are citizen journalists. They make tremendous sacrifices to their well being to carry out  these task. This type of dedication is uncommon in Nigerians. In the end Sahara Reporters is as good as we the citizens make it. Citizen Journalists need every ones support and participation to be effective.

I agree they have made a lot of contributions, but should we then overlook it when they overreach themselves? That is why I am dismayed by most of the comments here.

caspapa:
Depending on the angle you look at it, i think SR can still be trusted.

We can not expect SR to always say it the way we wanted, and SR can never be perfect, human error.

"Human error" one can accept. When I saw the article about the presidency giving a $50,000 "bribe" to some activists who visited them I thought the word choice amounted to sensationalism and bordered on the dishonest and wondered why journalists can't stick to facts. But I felt you could still put it down to a matter of words and their comprehension. However, that picture someone pasted up there is something else entirely. It's crass, nauseating, gutter journalism.

Joagbaje:
@Seyibrown,
Matt 24 was a Jewish prophecy. He wasn't making reference to the rapture but rather he was making reference to the second coming of christ which event will take place . 7 years after the rapture. When Jesus and us will come from heaven to fight for israel.

Is this figurative or you actually mean the State of Israel?

^^^ Yeah. I sighed when I saw that one.

@Joagbaje
I see you have not taken down the pictures. That’s in bad taste. If you were out to boost Pastor Chris’s spiritual credentials or make the point that God is indeed using you to help the poor, that was not necessary, but I hope the point has now been made. I am assuming, of course, that you do not have the mindset that since you picked up that fellow from a thrash deposit, you can treat him like thrash. Thank you, and may God bless you for helping Jesus when he was ill and homeless.

@Joagbaje
That was wonderful and I have no doubt God will reward you. But I think you should not have uploaded the pictures without the young man's consent, as some people take privacy matters rather seriously.

nuclearboy:
Did you see Nuella say "there is nothing she cannot do for HIM" on THIS thread? When last did you see her say that concerning Jesus? Did you notice Image123 and others frowned at that? Why? Its "insane", "funny", idolatrous".

It is that behavior that makes people look too closely and abuse your pastor.

"But the man is not like that. It's his followers who deify him." I have heard that thesis countless times. I think it deserves a closer examination, because I am deeply skeptical as to how much it connects with facts. In fact, I think it is completely untrue. That assertion would be based on the facts (i) It is unlikely the man has ever explicitly demanded worship of anyone or asked them to bankrupt to "honour" him; (ii) in his preachings he always centralises Jesus, not himself.

What is likely, then, is that the first followers the man acquired when he started his ministry set the tone for his deification - I can think of possible reasons, but they are not important here. Those who followed subsequently kept the torch burning. If that is the case, does it place him above reproach? No. Anyone with a passing knowledge of the Bible knows that deification of anyone, but God himself, was frowned upon. Angels vehemently refused obeisance from men. Even Jesus kept asking them not to call him this or that but to direct all such words to his Father. And what about Herod? Some people called him God and he expired instantly! When people say things like "There is nothing I can give you that is too much?" do our pastors tell them "get thee behind me, Satan"? No. When people are addressed as "our great father", "God's gift to this generation", and other nonsense, do they issue statements from the alter discouraging pastor worshipping? No.

In any case, I seriously suspect that the tone of what happens in churches is set by the leader, pastor or daddy GO.  People who attend these churches tend to act alike. Tonye-t related an experience about a pastor whose followers actually dishes out slap to anyone who dares talk ill of their daddy. CEC people may be known for deification of their pastors but so would you find one trait with people of other churches. Rev King's followers are known for their violence - it was oga Reverend Doctor that set the tone.

nuella2: OK let me enlighten you on offer7. In christ embassy we celebrate our pastors, leaders and members on their birthdays. Mostly its a surprise, so we call it a name which they dont understand what we are saying. Pastor chris birthday is called 'offer7', we have some other names like, E 21, Vision 17 etc. For your information its not only pastor chris's birthday we celebrate, my birthday was celebrated when i was i cell member, i wonder the name they called it, maybe N3. We appreciate and celebrate each other from pastor to members.

We give towards the celebration of our pastors birthday willingly and not by force, i can count how many times have given for pastors bithday, cos i didnt know the importance until recent, all those times nobody forced me to give. As a cell member several gifts were given tp me, when i got home my uncle asked jokingly if i got married that day.

Offer7 is not a scam, just a name we use in calling his birthday. There are other names around the ministry(E21, vision17, Vision 10, etc.)there names even for members.

Personally, I always had this thing against Ponzi schemes, network marketing and money things that work in the form of a pyramid.

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=563807.msg7297130#msg7297130 date=1291832299]The satellite church I attended was a super broke one (till today  ) despite all of our then pastor's efforts to get us to walk in this ever so elusive supernatural abundance. We just kept getting broker and broker  [/quote]

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=563807.msg7297130#msg7297130 date=1291832299]I remember he stood up [in really great faith, I suppose] in church one year like that about a month to Oyaks' birthday and announced that all other churches had started mobilising their members to give big to the man of god and that he wanted us, as a church, to give something really big that'll surprise the other churches in the group. He then announced that he'd decided we contribute to the sum of N500,000 to give as a birthday gift to Oyaks.

Jokes aside, my jaw hit the floor.  

I then looked around to see my fellow cec members who obviously were a struggling group, most of whom I could swear were probably having problems feeding properly, paying children's school fees etc. Couldn't stop wondering where even N50,000 could come from. Let alone N500,000!

Needless to say, we never got anywhere close to the sum.[/quote]This is sad!

But what's "offer7"?

Perrito4u:
Developments in two areas have a bearing on identifying what the Bible calls the last days. The Scriptures foretell events that would take place during the time of “the conclusion of the system of things.” (Matthew 24:3) The Bible also speaks of changes in the attitudes and actions of people living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1.
“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,” said Jesus, “and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” He added: “All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7, 8 )   Vast numbers of people were slain in wars and ethnic disputes during the past century. “Three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century AD to 1899,” states a scholarly report from the Worldwatch Institute. In his book Humanity—A Moral History of the Twentieth Century, Jonathan Glover writes: “An estimate for the period from 1900 until 1989 is that war killed 86 million people. . . . Death in twentieth-century war has been on a scale which is hard to grasp. Any averaging out of the numbers of deaths is artificial, since about two-thirds (58 million) were killed in the two world wars. But, if these deaths had been spread evenly over the period, war would have killed around 2,500 people every day, that is over 100 people an hour, round the clock, for ninety years.” Can you imagine the grief and pain this must have caused the millions of relatives and friends of those who lost their lives?
Despite the fact that the world produces plenty of food, the features characterizing the last days include food shortages. Researchers say that over the past 30 years, food production has outpaced population increase. Nevertheless, food shortages prevail in large areas of the world because many people do not have sufficient land to grow food or enough money to buy food. In developing countries, some 1.2 billion people subsist on a dollar (U.S.) a day or less. Of these, about 780 million suffer chronic hunger. According to the World Health Organization, annually malnutrition plays a major role in the deaths of over five million children.
What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.
“There will be . . . in one place after another pestilences,” said Jesus. (Luke 21:11) Medical science today is more advanced than ever before. Still, both old and new diseases continue to ravage mankind. A U.S. National Intelligence Council document states: “Twenty well-known diseases—including tuberculosis (TB), malaria, and cholera—have reemerged or spread geographically since 1973, often in more virulent and drug-resistant forms. At least 30 previously unknown disease agents have been identified since 1973, including HIV, Ebola, hepatitis C, and Nipah virus, for which no cures are available.” According to a Red Cross report of June 28, 2000, during the preceding year, the number of people who died from infectious diseases was about 160 times greater than the number who died in natural disasters.
“The increasing of lawlessness” is another noteworthy feature of the last days. (Matthew 24:12) In most places around the earth today, people do not leave their homes unlocked or feel safe on the street at night. And what about the pollution of the air, the water, and the land that we see taking place, often because of illegal practices? This too is in fulfillment of what the Bible foretold. The book of Revelation speaks of God’s appointed time to “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”—Revelation 11:18.

It appears you are very very unaware about the world you live in. Either that or your effort to improve your ability to connect dots have not been very successful. Let’s leave war aside, since you are fixated on the idea that a war that killed more than previous ones automatically means a new epoch, a turning point. Your church creates the impression and you believe:

(1) that crime and violence in the past was mild compared to what we have today

(2) that incidents of murder and lawlessness are almost unique to our time;

(3) that famine in our time is indeed severe compared to the past.

Are you, ma’am, really blissfully unaware that diseases are killing fewer people today compared to the past? That there is no famine today compared to what they had in the past? The quoted passage you pasted up there does not quote any historian, criminologist or encyclopedia actually saying that the world became worse after 1914. Famous people are quoted out context. That is why it might take someone who has watched a conjurer’s trick to fully understand the effect of this passage from above on Perito4u:

What can be said about the foretold earthquakes? According to the U.S. Geological Survey, the number of earthquakes powerful enough to destroy buildings has averaged 17 a year since 1990 alone. On average, earthquakes strong enough to cause almost total destruction of buildings have occurred once each year. “Earthquakes have claimed hundreds of thousands of lives in the last 100 years,” states another source. One reason for this is that since 1914 many large population centers have developed in earthquake zones.

Now that passage states two things (i) there have been earthquakes - ”since 1914” (ii) they have killed a lot of people. [/b]T[b]he passage does not make any comparisons and so doesn't explicitly state that there was an actual INCREASE in earthquakes since 1914. A secular source is quoted, but the source says nothing about earthquakes prior to 1990 or 1914 -  just that so-and-so earthquakes have occurred since the 1990's. Yet Perito reads passage and concludes that Jesus' foretold earthquakes have indeed manifested since 1914. All the writers of her article do to achieve this objective with her is to cleverly insert the word “1914” somewhere.

Of course there are crimes, hunger and diseases. So your writers trust people to believe their claims we live in worse times, since we haven’t lived in the past anyway. I mean, I can just tell my kid that during my father’s time everyone in our home town fed well and not expect him to doubt me. Has Perito4u ever heard of the Black Death, or the rage of syphilis in Europe in the 16th century? Who’s to tell Watchtower’s faithful readers that the crime you have in Italy and some other European countries today is kid stuff compared to some times past? Or that the century that began in 1914 did not have the most number of earthquakes or the most destructive? Who’s to help them compare figures so they can see there is actually less crime today in Western countries than in the past?

Honestly, it’s been nice talking to you, ma’am. It's Mr Williams I was expecting to come up with the historians that said the world got worse since 1914.

SEFAGO:
He is always whining like a little b*i*tch about racism lol

Quantity (Not equal) quality

Kobo always rams forward with arguments even if she does not make sense

She often reminds me of Senator Jesse Helmes - "No!"

SEFAGO:
Beaf is very very biased towards his Delta region or wherever he is from. So most of his analysis are off point

Beaf's case is one of non-contingent political definitism.

^^^ What would you propose, please?

tpia1:
no wonder we have some nigerian males cursing out every nigerian thomasina, dickina and harriet.

Lol
So women have done their own version of this cliche!

Let's be clear: the granny was dumb. But she is the victim here. That Gambian "boy" wrote and directed the script for this movie. It was he who set out from the start to dupe someone and Granny who is both lonely and dumb happened to be there. It's time someone made a law covering these sham marriages like they have lows on bigamy.

^^^ I agree with you on the power sharing thing. But on the issue of ICC. . .

My sympathies are always with oppressed people, not their oppressors. Africa and the world has seen too many leaders who die without being brought to book, their hands soaked in blood – from Pol Pot to Idi Amin.

If you don’t realise the need for an ICC I suggest you seek out and take a look at the documentaries “Cry Freetown” (Sierra Leone) and “Sand and Sorrow” (Sudan). The argument that the ICC is meant to witch-hunt African leaders is not really sustainable. Article 17 paragraph 1 of the Statute of Rome, which sets up the ICC, is unequivocal that the ICC should only come into a matter when concerned states are unwilling or unable to prosecute.  That is a fashionable allegation, anyway. Not that I know what the West is supposed to gain from prosecuting “African leaders”, spending their taxpayers’ money in doing so.

I concede that giving up power on the part of Charles Taylor was commendable - he probably read the writing on the wall as the Lurd and Model rebels were close on his heels, anyway. But he could have tried to stay on like Samuel Doe and extend the blood bath, so, at least, he has something good to remember himself by on his dying day. Bear in mind, still, that the Accra negotiations that led him to agree to step down and go into exile in Nigeria covered events in Liberia. My view is that those negotiations were respected since he was arrested for other matters – Sierra Leone. But consider the man’s atrocities: he was the first man to recruit and use child soldiers in West Africa. Many of those kids were made to take drugs and do terrible things, some are reported to have killed their own parents. And how about people whose hands were chopped off in Sierra Leone by people armed and supported by Charles Taylor?

If anyone wants to argue that there would have been no Charles Taylor without a Samuel Doe or that bad things happen in every war, those would be true. But I will say that the manner your conduct your war and the life you lead reveals your motive. I am not a pacifist and there have been rebel leaders I respect. Joseph Kony isn’t fighting to liberate anyone. Neither was Taylor.

I have no tear for the likes of Taylor (who, by the way, is being tried by the Special Court for Sierra Leone and not the ICC). I had tears for Sam Hinga Norman the Sierra Leonean hero who died in the custody of the Special Court. But that, unfortunately, is how justice systems work, be they national or international – the stone is lifted and whatever is found under is smashed.

Africa does not have a record of prosecuting its monsters – and there have been many of them. Mengistu is still living a free man in “exile” at Mugabeland right here on the continent. Hissene Habre massacred and tortured thousands of his own people in Chad. Where is he today? Has Senegal made good on its promise to put him on trial? Are they not going back and forth, later asking the same Europe they refused to extradite him to to provide them 27 million euros to try him? So should impunity continue to reign? If you learn the atrocities that took place in Southern Sudan and then Darfur, I believe you will crave an ICC to arrest Omar Hell Bashir today and get his blood-soaked hands off state business. There is no one indicted by the ICC whose hands are not dripping blood. Not one.

We cannot remove the ICC just to encourage the bad guys to give up power. That’s simplistic. And it won’t work. Punishment for crime is thought to deter criminals. We don’t remove them to encourage criminals to come out or give up their positions. If there was no ICC there ought to be other mechanisms of prosecuting these guys. It there was no ICC we ought to create one. In any case, it is not because of ICC that the likes of Mugabe or Kibaki or Gbagbo or Obasanjo rig elections. The ICC is not investigating anyone of these people. It is not because of the absence of ICC that the likes of Kufuor organized free and fair elections, that the likes of Mbeki gave up power when asked to do so with just a sign. As for those who have been indicted by international courts, Taylor, Kony, Hell Bashir and the others, I will need some convincing that they are being persecuted for not dancing to the West’s tunes.

But what you say may end up being a prophecy. Yesterday Liberian intelligence revealed that Gbagbo has made contact with ex-warlords in that country – must be his boys in Model. Now, Moreno- Ocampo, the ICC chief prosecutor, must be putting some effort into mastering the correct pronunciation of Gbagbo. Just in case.