₦airaland Forum

First off, this is my first Krayola thread! Will read and comment.  

^^^
This

MyJoe: I would think so. I suspect that someone who grew up in an environment where such things are not nurtured, or, like in my case, actively discouraged, would not have such endowments or would lose them due to disuse for the reason of his environment whatever spiritual maturity or endowments he may have been born with.

was actually written to agree with and reinforce what you said about dreams, visions and clairvoyance not being reflective of spiritual maturity. No disagreements there. The only thing I expressed disagreement with in that post was your assertion that Everyone has these experiences.

Your last post has greatly expounded on this and made some things clearer. Thanks again.

^^^ Never meant to imply he hadn't. You can write a whole book on failings of just about any "great" man.

You may wish to review some of the submissions made on this subject in the thread titled InesQor on the Salvation of the Non-Christian.

Deep Sight:
^^^^ Errrr. . . You have misunderstood me o. . . I have persistently argued on this Forum that an Atheist, Buddhist, whoever - can stand right so long as his conscience is good o. . . and you are VERY WELL AWARE OF MY NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO ARGUE THAT. . . so please put my post in context - I will elucidate. . .

I agree with you. I thought I should step in and hopefully help you see the need to re-contextualise.

That is a very brilliant argument, mazaje. I think it's easy to tear that post Deep Sight wrote apart. I do not see how anyone can predicate goodness on God/spirituality/ afterlife unless you are talking to someone who is churchbound and you do need something to get him to behave. Even then, it hardly works.

Bertrand Russel did not believe in the existence of God yet he was an epitome of goodness and the grace of God abounded in his life. Tai Solarin was another atheist who enjoyed the grace of God in abundance. And what is Humanism if human-based morality has no place?

RSA:
@MyJoe I was very dissapointed when I read that President Goodluck is rasing the minimum wage for civil worker to 1800 naira from 7500 naira,I mean here we where devastated with racist Tereblanche paying his employees 6000 Naira.I mean what is different between the Goverment and Tereblance? Africa we must wake up.

The wage situation in third-world countries, particularly Africa, is generally appalling. The situation in Nigeria is far from good and I don't think anyone has ever tried to argue otherwise on Nairaland. N7500 is poor and workers have been complaining about it. The main reason I expressed shock at the N6000 Terreblanche pays to his workers is because I do have an idea how difficult farm work is. I am aware there buka waiters who earn less than N6000 a month here. The thought of young people [i]toiling away at the land [/i]to get N6000 a month was what got to me. Bear in mind, too, that N6000 can buy more in Nigeria than South Africa. This is because South Africa has a larger economy and a computed higher standard of living. That is why you hear expressions like "by so-and-so country's standard." Currency conversion do not usually take economics into consideration.

^^^ Good point.

Romeo4real:
Dnt know what you're on about here. What FOOLish verses did i put together for Deep Sight?

I am on about the pun - the verses full of "fools".  Didn't mean to say the verses were themselves without sense or in any way direct anything negative towards your person.

Romeo4real: Well, no religion has a monopoly on enlightenment. I don't claim that, but you would have to use another phrase. "the Damascus Experience" arising from Paul's epiphany can only cut one way. It is in the Bible, and used to describe a Christian experience. If it takes you away from Christianity, it cannot really be described as a "Damascus experience" can it? And yes, i am being pedantic.

You used the phrase in a metaphorical sense. That is, you were not talking about the man Paul and the city Damascus. "Damascus experience" = religious experience leading to conversion. That cuts all ways.

Romeo4real:
I must admit, i find this section of NL as exhilarating as it is exhausting, as annoying as it is addictive, as frustrating as it is compelling, and the arguments as coherent as they are disjointed.

It definitely consists of the most intense, emotional, passionate, enduring, articulate, erudite and philosophical individuals I’ve ever come across anywhere. Even the insults are worth reading! Some say there is no God; some say there is a God, but not the Christian God we know.  Some say it is Allah, whilst others, like myself believe there is only one true God; Yahweh, Jehovah, Elohim, The I Am that I Am.

When I saw that package - the one with FOOLish verses (pun intended) - you put together for ol’ DS earlier, I mused that you are rather lucky that you are a Christian because I don’t know how you would have coped if you came up against certain people! As you get better acquainted with this section, you will not let any of it get to you. You can be dogmatic – this is religion, not science – but try to see others’ perspectives. If you can’t see it, listen to them all the same and then try to be logical, rather than resort to the most hurtful words you have learnt as most of the religious folk around here are wont to do once logic or verses fail them. You are better off if you don’t get angry at all. There is enough space for all.

Romeo4real: Eventually, someday, i believe all the sceptics will have their "Road to Damascus" experience, their Eureka moment, and an epiphany of such compelling magnitude, that it will provide irrefutable evidence - the kind that only resides within you; the kind that only comes from a personal experience, and an intimate relationship. Yes, there may be many Gods, but there is only one TRUE God - and his name is Jehovah.

Until such a time, we shall continue to conjecture, to postulate and pontificate, to philosophise and elucidate. We will continue our intellectual jousting and our cerebral gymnastics. If nothing else it gives our brains a workout and builds a begrudging camaraderie. Well, i salute all posters here!

“I realise you can’t see it for now, but Christianity is right, others are wrong.” Now we can’t argue that with you because, as I have observed, it’s in the nature of any religion, particularly the Abrahamic faiths, to make its followers think this way. But I also believe you can appreciate the fact that since God did not personally inform you of the rightness of your path and everything connected with it, you are like the rest of us. That is why the “Damascus experience” cuts both ways – several ways. I mean there are people who yesterday were Bible-chewing, anointing-filled, demon-casting, born-again Christians, whose own Damascus experience took them away from biblical Christianity.

Thanks all.

justcool:
All these talks about dreams, visions, clairvoyance, and reincarnation are good if one seeks to find the Truth about these matters; but here I sense curiosity in some posters. Curiosity and seeking to experience these things just out of curiosity is very dangerous and can lead one away from the Truth.

This has been established. I am also in total agreement that wanting to experience for the sake of experiencing is inordinate. The search for truth ought to be what drives us. But you might agree that it only makes sense for someone from a materialist background to be wary of going it by faith alone in his search for the Truth, which is what believing without “experiencing” might sometimes come down to, seeing as so many have been duped through faith, which is often nothing more than being led by the nose. (This in no way detracts from that great and absolute truth already stated that love is what will take a human to the Kingdom of God.)

justcool: Dreams, visions and clairvoyance have nothing to do with spiritual maturity.

I would think so. I suspect that someone who grew up in an environment where such things are not nurtured, or, like in my case, actively discouraged, would not have such endowments or would lose them due to disuse for the reason of his environment whatever spiritual maturity or endowments he may have been born with.

justcool: Everybody have dreams and most people, at least once in their earth lives have had a vision or have been clairvoyant,

I do not believe this. In fact, I think you are off the mark. Everyone has ordinary dreams, but not everyone has the kind of dreams we are talking about hereabout.

justcool: but this does not mean that they are spiritually mature. Training to expereince these things through occult practices is very dangerous and very weakening to the physical body; and once achieved, one cannot see anything on a higher level than his/her level of spiritual maturity.

Some people endanger their physical bodies at the cost of being able to see the beyond or perform astral travel and etc. But the beyond which they see is only their ethereal or astral environment and not anything worthy. Actually to some, it is better that they don’t see their ethereal environment. I will give an example: An inwardly impure man is surrounded by an impure ethereal environment, an environment that corressponds to his spritual state; being on earth and in the physical body makes it easier for him to become purer because one earth good and evil dwell side by side, by association with purer people on earth, he may change his ways and by emulating the purer people, he may soon also achieve some level of purity, and consequently his ethereal environment will change. But if he retires into himself and start practicing clairvoyance, modern psychic science and etc, he may succeed in opening the door that had hitherto protected him from his vile ethereal environment. And he will indulge in these practices, hearing and perceiving an ethereal environment that is at the same level with him, an environment that does not offer him an opportunity to become purer because in such environment only homogeneous spirits of the same impurity dwell. In so doing, this man forsakes this great gift of being on earth, and retires back to the ethereal; at the end when he dies, he finds out that he had not learnt the lessons he came to the earth to lean. Thus he had wasted his life on earth.

An inwardly mature spirit knows that being on earth is a great gift; he utilizes his energy in learning the lessons life on earth offers. It is not maturity to be able to perform astral travel or to be able to see or perceive ethereal things or astral things while neglecting your ability to live physically. It is like a child in primary one, who puts a hole on the wall of his classroom so that he can peep and see the next class -- class two. It happens that when this child (who while in class one boast of his knowledge of class two) finds himself promoted to class two, he will not be able to catch up with class two lessons because he neglected to learn the lessons of class one which is prerequisite for understanding the lessons of class two. Thus when people boast of their ability to travel in the astral, visit the astral planes, see visions, clairvoyance and etc, they are only revealing how inwardly immature they are. The procedures for learning to do these things weaken the physical body.

Occasionally and without occult training, one is allowed to see or perceive the beyond, in such cases it is a gift from above. But going through occult trainings to achieve these feats is very wrong. Also, occasionally, people are shown visions as a gift from above; but rather than inwardly and quietly reflecting on it to fully understand why the vision was given to them, they begin to toot their own horns. They begin to brag and tell people how clairvoyant they are. Such people cause unnecessary worries and make false predictions because their visions which were peculiarly fashioned for them, were not even understood by them in the first place. Ernest seekers keep personal visions to themselves and completely understand the visions; only when instructed to reveal the visions to people do they reveal it.  This should be the case all sorts of divination -- astrology, clairvoyance, visions, and prophecy. People who are too eager to tell others about their dreams, visions and psychic abilities are actually irresponsible enthusiasts who desire personal recognition. It is understandable that such people are not inwardly mature, thus their visions not really of any importance, they are only revelations of their ethereal or astral environment, an environment or a plane that may actually be lower than the earth. Any wonder why their predictions often fail. Some of the times what they see is actually forms, events, and environment created by their thoughts forms. This why their visions are always in accord with their religious and personal beliefs.

Some people argue that they need such occultic practices to know the beyond so that when they pass on they would not be strangers in the beyond. But this argument shows lack of understanding of the laws of creation which allows no gaps. Nature allows no gaps, towards the end of ones life, in old age (The phlegmatic stage of physical existence); the physical body's radiations changes and gradually he will be able to perceive the beyond; so that when he passes on he will not find himself in a strange environment. Ie in old age, towards the end of one's life, he/she will gradually beging to see the beyong; so that when he dies he finds himself in an enviroment that he/she has already became familier with during his/her old age on earth. This is how it is willed by the laws of God; but unfornatley so many people are denied of this gradual transition due to early death.

Thus in the laws of God lie everything that man needs, everything that he will ever need has been provided for. He only needs to walk calmly, neither with delay nor with hast; without any occult training or hurry to experience the beyond.

Every moment on earth is more important than any artificial experiencing of the beyond. There is nothing in the beyond (astral, and ethereal planes) so stupendous that one should hurry towards it; the same laws that guide the physical world guides the beyond. Actually there is no distinction between this world and the beyond.

Grasp life on earth with jubilant hands; experience the earth while on earth. The time for the beyond will come one day, when your physical body falls away, then the beyond will be all yours to experience.

Thanks for your insightful perspectives.

TV01:
Hi All, sorry I'm late. May I beg your leave to join the convo? Thank you kindly .

First, I'd like to say this is such a well mannered thread and interesting, and I'd like to applaud all the discussants. I've all but swooned at the cast and of course the submissions, revealing as it were the earnestness of some of the seekers here. I'll try and post in the same vein and not let the more "unascended" parts of my nature get a look in. Although I may well be tested if any of our resident fantasists, demagogues or cross-dressers make an appearance.

PastorAIO hadn’t seen nothing and he was talking, in another thread, about the highly enriched prose in this section!

@m_nwankwo
Clear explanation of Jesus’ mission. It's simply wrong that men should ascribe such infamy to God! I think there are a lot of pointers in the Bible to this fact as well, even though the ritual sacrifice doctrine is also written therein.

@vessucci
Thanks for your contributions to this thread and for your maturity. From your number of posts I expect you are used to incivility on this forum. I hope you get answers to your question on being unable to come to recognition in the face of the muddied water. But if it’s any help, m_nwankwo has said in the past that God will lead any genuine seeker to a path that will help bring him to recognition. I find that explicit enough, but whether it finds earth with you is another matter.

Don't hold your breath. Last I heard the case was dropped into a black hole called Ethics and Privileges Committee. And what was about "recall"? Not in Yerima's constituency!

beyunce:
Me Selfish? me that me Property was stolen from me? so because i want the thief to confess I'm selfish?

Ok. But this is true - the highlighted parts of it - bear it in mind.

Joagbaje:
The Bible says to turn the other. Cheek. If a man robs you of your jacket, give him your waistcoat too!(just kidding). [b]The bible turn thing is a form of divination . It is demonic . [i]There have been time it worked and at other times it points to a wrong person. [/i]Just like juju. [i]Juju men have often accuse an innocent person of stealing in the village. [/i]But it doesn't matter.You should keep away from it.[/b]If you must hear from God , talk to the holyspirit. Or talk with your pastor especially if he is prophetic, if you must . God wants to talk to you himself. [b]It is not the spirit of God that is behind that bible turning thing.[/b]I have witnessed it.

Listening to Yerima "explain" on BBC Hausa Service would have been like listening to a joke but for the fact a thirteen year old girl is involved. He says (1) The girl is not thirteen but he will not disclose her age  (2) He has not broken Islamic Law (3) He must live according to the tenets of his religion (4) The prophet married a young girl (5) He will not obey any law that goes against his religion.

Listening to him, anyone unfamiliar with Islam would think there is a Quranic injunction that a Muslim must marry a thirteen year old. There is nothing like that! I think following the tradition of the prophet in this case makes no sense because, as many Muslim scholars have opined, that happened at a different time and place. And one wonders why a man who swore to protect the Constitution will turn around to say he may not obey all the laws. There are religious groups who don't obey all the laws, but at least, they don't seek public office.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=436863.msg5977468#msg5977468 date=1272638928]m_nwankwo is light years ahead of us all. But he's maddeningly modest. He knows many things. One may not agree with everything he says, but you'll learn new things all the same.

As for the doctrine of the  inerrancy of the Bible, it's responsible for many people losing their religion. You're brought up in the unshakeable belief that it's the word of God and so you see everything in it with rose-coloured spectacles. When you leave the cocoon of indoctrination and do a little digging, horrible things come out and you lose faith in God. How can one see nothing wrong with accounts of a tribe waging war on others, dashing children against stones, murdering them all, killing married women and taking the virgins for themselves. They claim God told them to do it. God promised them the land. But the earth is the Lord's and the goodnes thereof. Even now there are un-inhabited stretches of land in the world. Why didn't 'God' lead them to land that wasn't already occupied? But the Israelites wanted farms they hadn't sown, houses they hadn't built, wells they hadn't dug, a ready-made city. So they committed atrocities and claimed it as God that sent them, as if those people aren't human beings, as if they don't matter matter to God. But the OT is the story from the Jewish perspective, so of course they'll make it seem the height of valour to murder children and despoil young girls. To make heroes out of murderers. They invented all manner of stories saying their God had given them the land. Is land finished in all the earth? If he could part the red sea for you like you claim, could he not make cities out of deserts for you? They have their myths like all cultures, but since it's in the 'holy','inerrant' bible, God must have sent them to murder and despoil, it must all be true. The story of they and the Midianites alone is enough to make you gnash your teeth and wonder at the madness of people.

People have known and believed God without the 'inerrant' bible for ages. He's never left us since we started inhabiting time. The bible itself recently got to the public in the 15th or 16th century, after gazillions of tampering with, every Tom and Harry inserting his own dogma in it. I suppose all those who lived before the bible became public never knew God and are now rotting in hell.

Honestly, if I didn't know God is real and true and absolutely loving and compassionate BEFORE I found out these things I would have left all religion in disgust.  I don't blame those that do. But God isn't what the Jews have created. He is a far grander being, and there is no evil in him. We simply can't stop projecting the worst in us onto God.[/quote]Well said. P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y put! It's sad how we are ending up with a break or bend situation. People are doing religion and getting inebriated, ceding their basic reasoning faculties to follow rainbows. Others look and spot the flaws and then conclude there is no God at all! It is sad.

Hi mad_max!
You have brought a lot to the thread for which I am grateful. I ate up with a spoon the part you talked about the Bible, as that is a topic I am keenly interested in. That is why I opened this thread titled Biblical Inerrancy. You may wish to offer more perspectives on that.

On reincarnation, my realisation since lately when I started to concern myself with and introspect on it is that there is no way there can be no reincarnation. I once asked a cousin who is into mysticism whether it is possible to see one’s past incarnations, and he said yes. Sometime last year I attended a forum organized by his school, picked a membership form and proceeded to filled it. Now, I picked the form because I am interested in seeing past incarnations. (I never was interested in astral travel or some weired stuff like that. But this seeing past incarnation matter. . .) But I never processed that form precisely because of the concerns I expressed in OP. I soon started to ask myself why there are so many spiritual movements all having fundamental differences in beliefs. I realised then that it was still possible to “experience” and be duped – which I reckon would be worse than being “blind”.

I think there is something in Justcool’s explanation about “an Elijah”. Strangely, that happens to accord with the understanding I had reading that verse as a kid.

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=436863.msg5976120#msg5976120 date=1272622466]Hi Madmax. I rejoice with you on your recognition that reincarnation do happen. I wish you strength.  I was offering my perception to MyJoe and I am not qualified  to teach him. Stay blessed.[/quote]
A professor not qualified to teach a kindergartner? That will be the day!

I'm fine, how you there? "Deist" is a fairly accurate description.

Deep Sight:
Because Infinity cannot be divided.

And that ^^^ is the Oneness of Infinity! 

^^^ Way too emotional to warrant a substantive response. When you calm down read my post again. Goodluck to you.

[quote author=J.Jay link=topic=426901.msg5851899#msg5851899 date=1270717045]Smokers are liable to die young. Believe me, its true.[/quote]This ^^^ is not a given, although smoking is known to increase (not create) the risk of certain ailments in [b]some [/b]people.

Ever heard of Burster Martin? He ran the London marathon at 101. After running, he celebrated it with cigarettes and buzz. His case is not isolated - I have read of others, including a lady in the newspaper recently who said her children, grandchildren or great grandchildren will not dare ask her to stop smoking because she is healthier than them.

You may click here to read about Martin.

dominique:
smell of tobacco and nicotine makes me nauseous. i can't be around anyone that smokes, male or female period.

Try it yourself, and your life will never be the same again.

People never cease to amaze one on this forum. How did "Is Jesus Christ Really Archangel Michael" suddenly become "when will the leaders of the Jehovah's Witnesses make public apologies for making their congregations a safe haven for peadophiles?"   

It's these crass unreasonableness and exorbitant displays of hatred that prompt Witness recruits to conclude they are being persecuted for following Jesus!

Zodiac61:
Selfishness and being self centred parading as piety.
Getting a green card is down to god!!!!
Do you have to be a believer to get that these days? 
Christianity has become about ME, ME, ME. as long as I get what I want, praise the Lord and screw the rest.
This so-called testimony is a disgrace.

Unfortunately this is how much religion has destroyed some people's psyche. They have got it all so twisted up they can't differentiate between their EGO and what is GOOD or GODLY or SPIRITUAL. They have totally lost sight of the big picture. The Bible means nothing to them, except the few verses they can twist for their own ends. Op is not an isolated write-up. Pick up any Nigerian Pentecostal Church's bulletin or magazine and you will see this sort thing all over it. "Praise the Lord, I did 'last dance' and bought a jeep." "I prayed and got a visa." "Pastor said God is about to surprise somebody; it was me. I got a 1b naira contract. Praise God." And so on. I have folk around me who are into it. Sometimes when they are talking you have to turn away your face to hide your disgust.

You don't need spiritual eyes to see the vast distance between this sort of people and God.

Thanks, M_Nwankwo.

You have illuminated this matter beyond my initial expectation. Something you said in the last paragraph particularly rings a bell. There is certainly more, particularly concerning that last issue, but for now, this is just fine. Gracias mucho!

Who's this "Romeo4real"? I'm liking him!

^^^ Ok.

Some threads dealing with philosophical themes:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-315294.0.html#msg4427391
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-422521.0.html#msg5800101
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-141835.0.html#msg2365789
http//www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-402063.96.html
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-408331.0.html#msg5631445
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-404066.0.html#msg5582480
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-402063.0.html#msg5559322
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-371493.0.html#msg5182182

You may also wish to check

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-413985.0.html#msg5702016
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=390914.msg5453725#msg5453725
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-411099.0.html#msg5663966

^^^ I don't think the threads you pasted above - the ones in I clicked on at random - are the stuff she is interested in. She said PHI-LO-SO-PHY. If I can find sample threads later, I will paste them.

^^^ Em, Em, Not that clever by half! Help me out.

michelin89:
Now I lay directly on the table.

Looks like a sofa on that pic!

^^^ Yes. And the Lawd is with you. . . Oh, still doing atheism? Last time I heard you were their chairperson.

^^^ Sure. Na you biko! Even though you thread in the thread of shadows, you shall dread no evil.

I thought michelin89, the scourge of virgins, would be in this thread!

Missy B:
Seun, can we have a Philosophy board as well?
Do I also have to post 20 threads suitable for that section?

Serious? I'm salivating already, as I can't wait to read metaphysical vibes from you! 

But, really, you can check the religious section where there are lots of philosophical threads. Our efforts to have a Philosophy child board created there have not yielded fruits so far.