₦airaland Forum

^^^
Hilarious! Actually it's not true I don't believe anything in it.

Deep Sight:
Now I'm curious.

So am I on this new area of e-whatever Tudor and some folks around here seem to be adept at. Sure freaks one out.

Ibime:
I cant believe grown men would waste their time discussing a fictional tale such as Noah's Ark.

The vast majority of African Christians believe these stories actually took place; that eminently qualifies them for analysis. In any case, that is what online forums are for - grown men discussing everything, including "fictional tales".

Akwasi:
That is where you are absolutely wrong. A curse when placed, takes a longer time to manifest.

What you are saying is that curses wait 4000 years to become active. I do not believe this. Do you have any examples?

Akwasi:
Could be the blacks were once superpowers but that is the main reason why you have to believe that something might have gone wrong.

No. You must be familiar with all the cliches about "change", "vagaries" and all. It happens to individuals, countries, and societies. How can you possibly say that the relegation of a race is evidence of a curse?

Akwasi:
You are absolutely right. But what remains is we blacks are from Ham. And[b] don't you think the curse has an effect on us?[/b]

No. Because:

1. If the backwardness of black people as evident today is as a result of a curse placed on them 4,000 years ago, such backwardness would have manifested throughout history. We know that blacks were not clearly the world's foot mat throughout the ages. Read up on it.

2. That verse of the Bible can't be trusted as useful history since a six-year-old can spot the contradiction - was it Ham OR Canaan who misbehaved/got cursed?

Akwasi:
Joe, Canaan is the descendants of Ham. All black people come from CUSH which is also translated Canaan sometimes.

I think you, sir, are getting your facts mixed up. In fact, you are plain wrong. In the Bible Canaan is a different chap from Cush.

1 Chronicles 1:8-10 (New International Version)

8 The sons of Ham:
      Cush, Mizraim, [a] Put and Canaan.

Akwasi: Its a fact that all blacks are from Ham, for that it is certain

This is not a known fact at all. It is a piece of conjecture created during a process one might call creative Bible reading. But there is no need to get bogged down in that. So let's say all black people come from Cush, Ham's first son. This would mean that Canaan had nothing to do with Africans.

In any case, you are yet to offer a response as to why Canaan was singled out of Ham's kids to act as the channel for passing on Ham's curse to future generations. You are also yet to think seriously about the fact that blacks have not always been comparatively backward and contrast this information with the curse theory you seem to have accepted as a piece of fact set in titanium steel.

Akwasi:
After the great floods in the days of Noah, his son, Ham found his father's unclothedness. He foolishly mocked at his father's unclothedness and informed his other brothers, Shem and Japheth. The brothers were not that silly, they wisely covered their father's unclothedness and it earned them a blessing from their father.

To Ham, Noah said "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren" Gen 9:25.

There is a contradiction in the above. Why curse Canaan when it was Ham who behaved badly?

Akwasi: Many believe this curse is the reason why Africans have been this wrecked.

Perhaps "many" can provide any data - doesn't have to be conclusive - to show that "Canaan" had anything to do with Africans. Personally, I am curious to learn more about this.

Akwasi: But there seem to be hope now. I had this feeling when president Barack Obama was voted as the United States president in 2008. From all angles now, African is gradually moving up and I think the gap may soon be over.

Does that mean, finally that curse from Noah is over? Please matured contributors only

I think you need to do a bit of history. You will find that different races have had the upper hand at different times and eras in human history. You will also learn that black people have not been the world's foot mat throughout history. You may also learn how the subjugation of blacks began and the grounds, which include the Bible verses you are here citing, used as justification.

benodic:
there will be no place to hide from your stubborn ignorance.

I find your world view intriguing. What would you say constitutes "stubborn ignorance"?

Deep Sight:
^^^ What is wrong with Ifa?

Good question, since noetic16 is a member of the Celestial Church of Christ which appears to combine Biblical Christianity and many elements of African Traditional system.

Pastor AIO:
I thought it was just another symptom of his stunted development.


or is it arrested development?

He's too much a phenomenon for such. Arrested? The arresting authority will get the Samson treatment sharp sharp!

^^^ No. But I too was wondering why he is still at 16 until someone informed me he has exhausted all the numbers to infinity, started again from one and is currently at 16!

Acidosis:
@Poster, I Strongly Advice You Change Your Name/Topic, The Wrath of God Might Descend On You

I think it's descending on his head already. That's why he is seeing false visions from the lying spirit that subverted Ahab. 

This list is highly suspicious. How come my name is not there even though I'm CH (Certified for Heaven)?

^^^ You are essentially right about our inherent ability to tell good from bad. But it may not end there. Why, for instance, do "good" men turn bad during war, natural disasters and similar upheavals?  Why, indeed, is there so much evil perpetrated by humans in spite of their inherently good nature? At the most basic level of looking at it, I think it's selfishness. It appears the ME factor alone is spectacularly successful in subverting the inherent good in us.

^^^ You see, she's already scared, JeSoul! Just put in a lil' effort and she's converted.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=462380.msg6274703#msg6274703 date=1277389293][size=15pt]But eternal damnation in hellfire is perfect for human beings, with our relentless evil and cruelty, to wish on others. [/size][/quote]This one should be italicised, bolded, underlined, printed in all the languages on earth, and hung on street corners, and, and . . .

Be still. . .

[quote author=Aloy+Emeka link=topic=463687.msg6223316#msg6223316 date=1276674203]There were reports of strikes by security men at the stadium for non payment of salaries yesterday and riot police were stationed everywhere to stop the angry workers who were shouting exploitation on CNN and threatening to disrupt the world cup if they are not paid. Why now? You guys shouldn't kill this image for Africa over little thing. Every world cup goes fine and when it comes to our own, its riots and strikes and kidnappings. Please, ejoor, biko South Africans, I beg you in the name of God, the image of Africans are hanging on this world cup balance. Help your government make it successful.[/quote]The above post merely expresses a concern about something that might threaten our desire to have a hitch-free good World Cup on the African soil, a desire all of us share as Africans. I am sure Arabs would feel the same if it were being held in an Arab country. Same would apply to people in any region that has not previously hosted a major world event.

[quote author=Aloy+Emeka link=topic=463687.msg6250602#msg6250602 date=1277056463]Why do the pitch peel during games. Are they poor quality pitches or because they are relatively new?. A lot of bloggers are complaining about the peeling grasses in South African pitches. It's kinda nasty and look like they are playing on top of sawdust. This is the first time I am seeing a thing like this. Even the last junior WC played in Nigeria, I didn't notice any peeling pitches.[/quote]RSA could simply have explained the winter situation and all that in response to the above.

But no! First poster's observations clearly made with a harmless intent have to be hijacked by two ultranationalistic teenagers who must defend their country and bash other people's to feel good with themselves.

Wow! Brilliant posts.

Zikkyy:
I tried thinking of various line of argument to counter Deepsight’s position but always came to same conclusion; people should be responsible for their actions.

I feel you. Deep Sight knows what he is talking about and there can be no argument successfully formulated against personal responsibility. What is wrong-headed about his position is his sweeping generalisations.

Deep Sight:
What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

Take another look at this -

Do  you disagree with the above?

Do you state that people do not have responsibility for themselves in these matters?

I think Zikky and Nuclearboy have addressed these, but I will like to make some observations.

1.  There is need to refrain from making simplistic references to "intuitive perception". If it works independently of pre-conceived ideas, how many people, in practical terms, have experience of this? You have changed creeds yourself more than once. Was it intuitive perception told you do do so each time or would you not ascribe things in large parts to your experiences and interactions? Does this not speak clearly that you are developing spiritually and that your experiences and interactions play a role? Perhaps you have any examples of rustics in Bhutan whose "intuitive perception" told them to stop venerating cows?

2.  People in secluded communities usually follow the order. The few who don't take their position due to some external influence. They read something. They saw something. They heard something. Whatever it is they observe helps them to "put two and two together" and progress from the absolute certainty of true believer to cognitive dissonance, and finally to epiphany. Anyone in a secluded community who truly on his own goes against the grain is a genius and cannot be used as a yardstick. Not that I can recall any. In Christopher Buckley's novel, Wet Work, everyone is watching a shaman drink a concoction preparatory to "seeing visions" and a boy observes to his father that he thinks the shaman is going to see a lot of vision having drunk a lot of the stuff. At which the father calmly responds: "trust only your own vision". How did a stark illiterate Indian who had not previously had contact with Western ideals know that the shaman was a fraud? Because he himself once caught the shaman red-handed perpetrating fraud! Those who bought indulgences from popes did so based largely on their exposure and environment.

3. Yes, a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit. But why can't you see that this ability is not the possession of everyone?

4.  The issue of personal responsibility is such a settled matter one should not belabour it. There can be no argument against it. So I do understand your agreement and agree basically with you on “personal responsibility”. What I reject in its entirety is your "one-size-fits-all" approach. You need to understand that personal responsibility can only come in when there is personal responsibility.

5.  Just to be sure, I have never paid a dime as tithe or that sort of thing, so none of this applies to me.  But I know people who don’t even have the mental capacity to process all the stuff we are here saying. What about those who are barely literate or stark illiterate? What some of these people go through at the hands of their trusted priests is not similar to what the urbane Deep Sight went through at the hands of 419ers. It is more like a village girl just come to Lagos to live with her uncle. Rather than look after her he puts her to slave labour. There is no personal responsibility on her part.

Deep Sight:
A belief that your life will be ruined if you do not pay a tithe is ST.UPID. When i use the words "spiritually retarded" - I do not speak arrogantly: and i choose my words advisedly - for the notion itself contains a lamentable misconception of what the spiritual man is: and the essence of spirituality. It seeks, as it were, to monetize spirituality: and that is nothing if not symptomatic of retardation in that respect. This is comparable to the belief in the middle ages that forgiveness of sins coul dbe obtained by purchasing indulgences from the Pope. I wonder what words you might use to describe that belief. Perhaps you will choose to be politically correct and remain silent on it. The truth however, is that it was the most muguistic belief ever.

I do not apologize for this statement and I am not inclined to deny you your entitlement to view my statement which ever way rocks your boat.

Everyone admits he has flaws alright, but no one would consider those flaws as stup.id, daft or retarded. All that, you see, is SUBJECTIVE.

I am not inclined to say more on this except to remind you, as I am convinced you already know, that people have different levels of exposure and are conditioned by their environment. I am convinced that in the whole scheme of things that places responsibilities where they belong. There is not necessarily a political correctness about that.

I agree you did not say “a tither will be punished”. But if you look at the context again you may see why it was necessary to clear up that matter.

While personal responsibility is the reasonable part for any sensible person to start from and to take, I disagree with your conclusions on “muguness” and “spiritual retardation” for the reason that humans have limited perceptions in these matters. People believe that failure to do all sorts of things will ruin their lives and do all sorts of things to be blessed. Going by your views just about everyone is spiritually retarded and mugu, no? All men are spiritually developing. To class those who adhere to specific doctrines such as believing that not tithing can ruin them as "spiritually retarded" was absent-minded on your part.

Hilarious!

Deep Sight:
@ Myjoe - That's a good write up BUT -

  1. Yes: the deceiver is culpable as well: we all agree on that

  2. However the deceived CANNOT escape culpability and none of the reasons you gave above are sufficient to justify the willfull suicide commited against a person's simple perceptive capacities by his submission to dogma.

The deceived in the specific case of tithing can escape culpability. In fact, there may be no culpability at all! I do not believe that a religious devotee who falls victim to a doctrine that is not commanded by God has brought judgement upon himself as long as what he is led to do does not violate God's principle on love, a principle every human soul ought to be able to recognise. Let us group tithers into two: Those who tithe and still serve humanity and those who tithe and don’t.  Those in the first group are fine because there is nothing wrong in giving 10% or any percentage you like of your money to your church. It is your prerogative. An example that comes to mind here is the man who recently anonymously footed the bill of a kid who needed to travel to India for heart surgery to the tune of N1.5m. If that man goes ahead to give 10% of his earnings to his church what has he done wrong? Nothing.

There is no bad karma that can be incurred by that whatsoever. The only consequence here is played for a fool by being robbed of his money since his pastor may put the money, not to the service of God through humanity, but to personal use. It is this pastor that has brought judgment upon himself by (1) making a false decree in the name of God (2) putting money collected in the name of God to personal use. If you agree with my submission above, then let’s say this group of tithers are not the people we are talking about.

It becomes a serious matter with the second group, that is, when tithing subverts the individual’s faithfulness to God through the serving of disadvantaged people. Here a man’s paying of his tithe leads him to neglect his godly duty to those he comes across who are weak, vulnerable and in need of assistance, or, in some cases, his dependents. Unfortunately, most contemporary Christian tithers I know fall into this second category. This is the “effect in Society/Christianity” of false teachings. A typical example of this dangerous group of tithers is the man who came to Nairaland to ask if he should pay his tithe or help an ill friend. If he pays his tithe and neglects to help “the little one of Christ” who is ill, he incurs a bad Karma, not by tithing, but by passing up an opportunity to serve God by serving someone in need.

Deep Sight: In this I am particularly convinced because I have seen stark illiterates who are NOT deceived by these blessing-peddlers - people who are not educated and not refined but are able to excercise their rational and intuitive perceptions AND CLEARLY SEE FRAUD FOR WHAT IT IS. What excuse then, does a well educated, refined person have for not similarly excercising his perceptive faculties? It's nothing but spiritual and mental laziness: and there is no justification for this.

  3. NO HUMAN BEING is spiritually blind save by personal choice.

It has nothing to do with education. Most human beings are captive to some concept. For some it is tithing, for others it is something else.  You have been there, so you know. Is there a possibility that when you were a sincere JW you did not go from house to house, sometimes aggravating people? No. It's a part of the package. You don't pick and choose what to obey with religion, that is where trust between the pulpit and laity comes in because whatever is said is received as sacred revelation. However, we can choose what creed to subscribe to.

Why do we make these choices? Why do some people discover they have been duped after one year? Some after 60 years? How does Deep Sight know he is not duped in his present beliefs? Does anyone have satisfactory answer to these questions? I have some but they are all subjective.

JeSoul:
^Well said Deepsight. I believe Jesus spoke to this situation: Matthew 15:14 ". . . they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

The deceiver and the one who allowed themselves to be deceived, are both guilty of error and will both answer to God.

I would be more circumspect about blaming the victim, JeSoul. What we have here is a sighted man extending a hand to a blind man and then using his vantage position to to lead that one into a lion's pit.

Deep Sight:
@ Nuclearboy, Mad_Max, KunleOshob -

I emphaticaly disagree. You make it appear as though the persons being fleeced are incapable of reading the bible.

There are people who are incapable of reading the Bible.

Deep Sight: You also make it appear as though those persons are incapable of quiet introspection.

Well, not everyone is capable of quiet introspection, either.

Deep Sight: These people have access to Bibles and can study the scripture if they choose to do so. Indeed I do not know what gives them the right to imagine themselves members of Christendom if they do not personally study the scriptures. The scriptures are clear that every word ministered to them should be subjected to personal study and introspection. If these people cannot read the scripture and free themselves from the lies being sold to them, then i verily submit that that is EXACTLY what they deserve. It is ridiculous to claim that people cannot reason for themselves: or that once a Pastor repeats something often enough, people should be excused for gobbling it up without personal reflection.

I understand your sentiments about people with herd mentality, but I think you need to reflect more on the nature of religion itself, the manner in which religious tenets are received, and the human mind. The human mind I am not smart enough to comprehend satisfactorily, but something is known of the first two. Religion is something you follow dogmatically – you don’t question it. That is the nature of religion. When people accept a system of worship, that is, a religion, they trust their lives to God and his “appointed servant”. This automatically creates a relationship based on trust between the “appointed servant” and the follower. This is why even the most intelligent people and people with Ph.D. fall for religious scam. The follower trusts the appointed servant relay the message from God correctly. If the “appointed servant” takes advantage of this position to deceive, I believe he should be held accountable for it.

The perpetrators of religious fraud are a determined lot. They know what they want and how to go about it. Folks stand no chance! Not only are they schooled in the art of deception, but they have access to the means of spreading their poisonous message. Let’s look at some of their methods. They take over the media and spurn stories of how people pay tithe and reap billions. Now, if they stop there you can blame your average Christian for lusting after lucre and thereby falling for the tithing scam. But they don’t! They go on to reel out stories of people who did not pay and had their warehouses razed by fire, came down with mysterious diseases, had their children expelled from school and generally declined. [/i]In other words, God gets positively angry and punishes you if you don’t pay your tithe.

It’s not about not reading their Bibles. I have been there. You read one verse, then listen to copious amounts of tape or read volumes written by the “servant” on that verse. He tells you what it says and gives you stories to back up his explanation. When verses contravening the doctrine are seen, they are glossed over.  Most people who attend tithing churches pay tithes. I had a Catholic friend who tithes regularly, having swallowed the message from the tithing wing of Christendom.

A potential recruit, you hear the message and realise your life has been full of problems all along and you wonder if it is because you have not found the secret which is now being revealed. You “give your life” and start paying tithe! Here is Justice Oyewole in his verdict on the infamous Rev King: [i]“The Nigerian society is already bogged down with myriads of problems ranging from poverty to corruption which has rendered many of its vulnerable elements susceptible to the wares of religious highway men such as the accused person here, who offered them stone for bread and scorpion when they demand for fish.”

The only person that is safe from the salesman of tainted spiritual goods is he that does not buy. Once you buy there is usually no room for selective consumption. The question of why people buy, I think, cannot be satisfactorily answered by anyone. What brings a man to accept a faith appears to be like what brings a man and a woman to together, keeps them together and tears them apart – it is unknown.

Religious deceivers will bear a heavy judgement.

Romeo4real:
Well, I'm off to stuff my face, i will post my hypothesis afterwards!

Ok.

Cohomology:
The Jews should be given a part of Idaho to live in. Idaho is a decent place to live.

https://static.open.salon.com/files/idaho-map1232261474.gif

Present-day Israel should then be declared Palestine.

I hope you realise the Israelis aren't likely to agree to this, not least because of notions about "home", a notion common to all humans. Idahoans might also kick. Might we think of something everyone will read and say, "Ok, I will digest this and get back to  you on it"?

Googler:
This appears face saving. No, it's frightening, if it's what I'm thinking. I have read your back posts on this issue and it would be a shame if you have no ideas at all how to get out of the situation. But what would really scare me is if all you have inside your mind is unconditional support for Israel without any ideas on how the situation might be resolved.

I think David will respond yet. This is a matter he is passionate about.

Googler:
@OP
I personally would go with the proposals put on the table at Camp David II by Bill Clinton as a starting point. I mean what we currently know of the proposals. You know, a Palestinian state at the West Bank and Gaza, with some of East Jerusalem as capital.

Camp David II is a complex matter, and there seems to be so many unrealistic analyses of it about. A lot remains unknown about those proposals and I won't claim any expert knowledge of them, but they are known to include the matters you stated above. It is also known that Arafat said "No" without bringing forth definite counter proposals of his own. Now, that is "scaring". But why would he do that? I think there were serious issues with those proposals he would have found difficult to sell to any Palestinian. A lot is said about Jerusalem and refugees. I think Barak was flexible on the matter of Jerusalem. One serious issue in the proposals was this idea of having intricate, non-contiguous borders just so Israel could keep isolated settlements. Don't forget too the stringent military conditions like, "The state will not have army with heavy weapons." Perhaps you can flesh things out, Googler.

^^^ Right. Uden is what it is called where I grew up.

It is not bleached palm oil that creates palm kernel oil. Wherever did anyone get that from?

Palm oil comes from palm fruit, that is, it is extracted from the pulp of the oil palm. Palm kernel oil, on the other hand, comes from the stuff inside the pulp, called palm kernel. There are several methods of extracting palm kernel oil, but the traditional method is to heat the kernel in a dry pot till the oil shows up. The oil extracted in this way is blackish-brown and is not normally used in cooking but for traditional medicine and lubrication.

Palm oil is the traditional cooking ingredient, the "red" one commonly sold in markets all over Nigeria. But palm kernel oil has also found its place in frying, especially for commercial use. Both are vegetable oils and do not contain cholesterol. But they contain saturated fats which can increase the body's production of cholesterol.

^^^ I'm ignorant of it. School me.

^^^
I'm waiting for your road map, David. In clear terms. 

Romeo4real:
@My Joe, not sure if i understood what you meant. Did you want me to post on this thread regarding the other thread?

Ouch! So sorry, I've corrected my error. Please go back and click on that link again. 

nkiru bb:
JESUS CHRIST IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR AND NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT
THERE IS COMPLETE POWER IN HIS NAME,
CALL HIM ANYTIME, ANYDAY
HE WILL ANSWER YOU
HE IS THE LOVE OF MY LIFE

How do you know this?

Afam:
Even as developed as the US is today it is indebted to the tune of trillions of dollars. This simply means that the US today cannot even afford to pay its debts. This also means that even the US is being sustained by credit lines being granted it by the likes of World bank and IMF. Now, when a nation as developed as the US depends on these credit lines and loans to survive how do you think a country like Zimbabwe would fair when the IMF  and co chose to freeze or with hold what the country had access to before?

The US does have huge debts, but I am not aware that such debts are owed to the IMF and World Bank. The IMF did not freeze Zim's money. They merely refused to reschedule the country's debt when it was up for payment and refused further lending. It was their money and legally speaking they had the right to do what they did. But objectively speaking, I see what they did as wrong not least because they let Argentina to reschedule its debt when it had similar problems. Not that this makes them the author of Zimbabwe's problems.

Afam: All these back and forth started from your claim that the IMF and the World bank h[b]ad nothing to do with the economic problem in Zimbabwe[/b] and that was the basis for my position that debating anything with you would amount to a huge waste of time if such a position should be allowed to stand.

I did not say highlighted. I wrote this earlier:

MyJoe: Even if the IMF and the World Bank have played any role in Zimbabwe's economy since this crisis started around 2000, that was not your claim so I could not have admitted or failed to admit that. You said they conspired to strangulate Zimbabwe's economy, meaning they are responsible or, at least, contributed in no small way, as a matter of deliberate policy, to the economic crisis that country has faced over the past decade.

Afam: I never stated that only IMF crippled the economy of Zimbabwe, I merely highlighted and applauded the people of Zimbabwe and the president for growing the economy in spite of what the IMF and the World bank did to the country.

I basically disagree that there is much to applaud. I also happen to believe that Mugabe created the problems in the first place. That's why I mentioned NEPA. Read this:

Ibime:
If you fall reach your lowest, the only way is up. I would hardly consider a growth in GDP over the last year as proof that Zanu PF's economic policies are bearing fruit, considering that they have lost more than 80% of their economy since 2000.